Kalasin Accident

[cumgranosalum]

It looks to me as though the shoulder of the road is just that. But, it could be a motorcycle lane - I don't think so though.

That said, it has become the norm for motorcycles to ride down these lanes, anyone with experience driving here will be looking out for a motorcycle driving up the inside.

IF it is a motorcycle lane, the motorcycle should not be undertaking moving traffic - the motorcyclist has committed the office.

IF it is a motorcycle lane, the motorcycle has crossed a solid white line - the motorcyclist has committed the office.

IF it is a motorcycle lane, the motorcycle was riding too fast, apparently exceeding speedliits ? (debatable).

IF it isn't a motorcycle lane, the motorcyclist was committing an offence.

Additionally: IF it is a motorcycle lane, then it should be marked with a 'stop sign' and solid white line at each junction to the left.

Legalities out of the way - Traffic in Thailand has often been described like flowing water without regard for regulations.

Legally or not, its universally accepted in Thailand and has become the norm for motorcyclists to ride up the inside shoulder. In fact its not uncommon for motorcyclists to be riding in either direction along the inside shoulder.

This is especially dangerous when a car is pulling out onto a dual carriage way and noses out across this shoulder looking right towards the oncoming traffic, I've had to stop in the past as a motocylist was approaching from the left on the wrong side of the road on one of these shoulder-lanes.

In Bangkok the motorcyclists ride down the pavement, when turning left in Bangkok (on Rama IV) in busy traffic this adds extra risk - while making a left turn we have to ensure that there are no motorcyclists riding down the pavement.

This is all nuts and just shows how careless the driving is in Thailand - many many motorcyclists ride around without any consideration for their own safety.

In this case: The car wasn't paying a great deal of attention to his surroundings (as many driver in Thailand fail to do). That said, it looks quite clear that the while the car clearly plays a roll in the accident, the motorcyclist is at fault.

To avoid the accident - the car should have 'eased over to the left' while indicating to protect his line and make his intentions clear - driving defensively. BUT, a motorcycle driving so carelessly may have simply rear-ended the car !!!... who would be at fault then? the motorcycle IMO.

IF it was a parked car would the motorcycle have hit it ? maybe...

I can't see how this isn't the motorcyclists fault.

"I can't see how this isn't the motorcyclists fault. " - Yes...that's the point, you can't see - we didn't see these vehicles up the road and the camera angle an lens can actually distort theremaining events as it is not the same as our vision and even that is unreliable....what we have hear is a second or even third hans ppartial visual account.

Edited February 18, 2016 by seedy
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[cumgranosalum]

Car is at fault, can not turn left without making sure the road is clear. It does not matter whether or not he indicated.

Nonsence, the lane had finished as Kartman said.Both at fault Mini Car driver was clearly hovering, and Bike didnt appraise the situation due to his speed and stupidity.

Does not matter whether the lane was finished or not. Unless you think all motorbike riders are required to move onto the next lane when their lane is finished because the lines have changed'. Car lovers may not be happy with this, but that does not change the fact that the motorbike was legally in the right and the car in the wrong. But of course the bikerider could have avoided this.

No, you are wrong ;

the driver of the motorbike is at fault;

the car is far in front of him;

so he must do attention at was is in front of him;

For occidental police it's 100% the fault of the motorbike;

BUT for occidental insurance the driver of the car has some responsability .

It's not the same reasoning .

" occidental police it's 100% the fault of the motorbike;" - Absolutely not, this is a myth held by drivers ........ there are laws that tip the balance in favour of the vehicle "in front" but there is bno 100% certainty....I have witnessed a lot of cases where the driver in front has been very disappointed when blame has been attributed to them.

Edited February 18, 2016 by seedy
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[richard_smith237]

[

so it is not a bike lane then...

Surprise surprise.

if its not bike lane i be big surprised.

Because its be first time this is type road in Thailand with out bike lane:)

Spend some time on google maps street view and you will find a bike lane is not as common as you make it out to be. Infact I will go as far as saying a bike lane is a rare occurance in Thailand.

Driving in different provinces shows that the roads are often signed and marked differently.

The best example of this is in Chantaburi - They have very clearly marked Bicycle lanes (and have done for at least the past 5 years).

It occurs to me that each Individual Province receives it's own individual budget for roads etc.. depending on the levels of corruption within local government and dependant on the direction / instruction of that local government some provinces have better roads than others.

These well marked and clean bicycle lanes on many of the secondary roads in Chantaburi are an example of this...

Of course, that doesn't stop motorcyclists using them or lorries parking on these bicycle lanes.

Thus: I can only conclude based on the varied answers and opinions in this thread is that Some provinces do have Motocycles Lanes, others don't but have similarly marked hard-shoulders.

[Assurancetourix]

Excuse me Khun Cumgranosalum,

No this is not a myth; it's reality;

And I know what about I'm writting ;

I was working ,with other people like me, every weeks on police procedure about mortal accidents inside Paris, France ;( so, inside the motorway which is 36 km long all around Paris )

A hard work to define who was at fault on an mortal accident;

working with other policemen , not those who were on the accident and people of the insurances;

I was an volunteer independant expert as many other people and working in my company as a teacher about security on the roads .

if u can understand french

http://eduscol.education.fr/education-securite-routiere/spip.php?mot88

[richard_smith237]

It looks to me as though the shoulder of the road is just that. But, it could be a motorcycle lane - I don't think so though.

That said, it has become the norm for motorcycles to ride down these lanes, anyone with experience driving here will be looking out for a motorcycle driving up the inside.

IF it is a motorcycle lane, the motorcycle should not be undertaking moving traffic - the motorcyclist has committed the office.

IF it is a motorcycle lane, the motorcycle has crossed a solid white line - the motorcyclist has committed the office.

IF it is a motorcycle lane, the motorcycle was riding too fast, apparently exceeding speedliits ? (debatable).

IF it isn't a motorcycle lane, the motorcyclist was committing an offence.

Additionally: IF it is a motorcycle lane, then it should be marked with a 'stop sign' and solid white line at each junction to the left.

Legalities out of the way - Traffic in Thailand has often been described like flowing water without regard for regulations.

Legally or not, its universally accepted in Thailand and has become the norm for motorcyclists to ride up the inside shoulder. In fact its not uncommon for motorcyclists to be riding in either direction along the inside shoulder.

This is especially dangerous when a car is pulling out onto a dual carriage way and noses out across this shoulder looking right towards the oncoming traffic, I've had to stop in the past as a motocylist was approaching from the left on the wrong side of the road on one of these shoulder-lanes.

In Bangkok the motorcyclists ride down the pavement, when turning left in Bangkok (on Rama IV) in busy traffic this adds extra risk - while making a left turn we have to ensure that there are no motorcyclists riding down the pavement.

This is all nuts and just shows how careless the driving is in Thailand - many many motorcyclists ride around without any consideration for their own safety.

In this case: The car wasn't paying a great deal of attention to his surroundings (as many driver in Thailand fail to do). That said, it looks quite clear that the while the car clearly plays a roll in the accident, the motorcyclist is at fault.

To avoid the accident - the car should have 'eased over to the left' while indicating to protect his line and make his intentions clear - driving defensively. BUT, a motorcycle driving so carelessly may have simply rear-ended the car !!!... who would be at fault then? the motorcycle IMO.

IF it was a parked car would the motorcycle have hit it ? maybe...

I can't see how this isn't the motorcyclists fault.

"I can't see how this isn't the motorcyclists fault. " - Yes...that's the point, you can't see - we didn't see these vehicles up the road and the camera angle an lens can actually distort theremaining events as it is not the same as our vision and even that is unreliable....what we have hear is a second or even third hans ppartial visual account.

Thats fair enough - but based on your comments the only correct response to this Video is that we can't make a truly informed opinion of fault as we don't have all the information and evidence.....

Now, carry this forward, neither would a court, but they would use this evidence along with driver statements to come to a conclusion of fault. In this case they would be using the same information we are looking at.

Further more, this is simply a web-forum where opinions and ideas are being discussed and thrown around. It's made for an interesting thread. Had we all simply wrote 'we don't have enough evidence for a truly informed decision' the thread would be very boring... The fact is that this thread already has far more evidence than many of a similar nature.

[cumgranosalum]

It looks to me as though the shoulder of the road is just that. But, it could be a motorcycle lane - I don't think so though.

That said, it has become the norm for motorcycles to ride down these lanes, anyone with experience driving here will be looking out for a motorcycle driving up the inside.

IF it is a motorcycle lane, the motorcycle should not be undertaking moving traffic - the motorcyclist has committed the office.

IF it is a motorcycle lane, the motorcycle has crossed a solid white line - the motorcyclist has committed the office.

IF it is a motorcycle lane, the motorcycle was riding too fast, apparently exceeding speedliits ? (debatable).

IF it isn't a motorcycle lane, the motorcyclist was committing an offence.

Additionally: IF it is a motorcycle lane, then it should be marked with a 'stop sign' and solid white line at each junction to the left.

Legalities out of the way - Traffic in Thailand has often been described like flowing water without regard for regulations.

Legally or not, its universally accepted in Thailand and has become the norm for motorcyclists to ride up the inside shoulder. In fact its not uncommon for motorcyclists to be riding in either direction along the inside shoulder.

This is especially dangerous when a car is pulling out onto a dual carriage way and noses out across this shoulder looking right towards the oncoming traffic, I've had to stop in the past as a motocylist was approaching from the left on the wrong side of the road on one of these shoulder-lanes.

In Bangkok the motorcyclists ride down the pavement, when turning left in Bangkok (on Rama IV) in busy traffic this adds extra risk - while making a left turn we have to ensure that there are no motorcyclists riding down the pavement.

This is all nuts and just shows how careless the driving is in Thailand - many many motorcyclists ride around without any consideration for their own safety.

In this case: The car wasn't paying a great deal of attention to his surroundings (as many driver in Thailand fail to do). That said, it looks quite clear that the while the car clearly plays a roll in the accident, the motorcyclist is at fault.

To avoid the accident - the car should have 'eased over to the left' while indicating to protect his line and make his intentions clear - driving defensively. BUT, a motorcycle driving so carelessly may have simply rear-ended the car !!!... who would be at fault then? the motorcycle IMO.

IF it was a parked car would the motorcycle have hit it ? maybe...

I can't see how this isn't the motorcyclists fault.

"I can't see how this isn't the motorcyclists fault. " - Yes...that's the point, you can't see - we didn't see these vehicles up the road and the camera angle an lens can actually distort theremaining events as it is not the same as our vision and even that is unreliable....what we have hear is a second or even third hans ppartial visual account.

Thats fair enough - but based on your comments the only correct response to this Video is that we can't make a truly informed opinion of fault as we don't have all the information and evidence.....

Now, carry this forward, neither would a court, but they would use this evidence along with driver statements to come to a conclusion of fault. In this case they would be using the same information we are looking at.

Further more, this is simply a web-forum where opinions and ideas are being discussed and thrown around. It's made for an interesting thread. Had we all simply wrote 'we don't have enough evidence for a truly informed decision' the thread would be very boring... The fact is that this thread already has far more evidence than many of a similar nature.

So writing an incorrect answer is better??/

In court the collision would be accompanied with diagrams indicating the ACTUAL [position of the vehicles on impact and a scientific description of the lines taken by both vehicles before and up to the impact, there would also be an informed assessment of the speeds of the vehicles involved.

(e.g - I can see an alternative scenario where the car overtook the bike and then moved in front and braked, knowing the bike was there . but as there is no video if the road for 500 metres before we can't see that.)

[Assurancetourix]

the art of cutting hairs in the lengthwise

[Don Mega]

It looks to me as though the shoulder of the road is just that. But, it could be a motorcycle lane - I don't think so though.

That said, it has become the norm for motorcycles to ride down these lanes, anyone with experience driving here will be looking out for a motorcycle driving up the inside.

IF it is a motorcycle lane, the motorcycle should not be undertaking moving traffic - the motorcyclist has committed the office.

IF it is a motorcycle lane, the motorcycle has crossed a solid white line - the motorcyclist has committed the office.

IF it is a motorcycle lane, the motorcycle was riding too fast, apparently exceeding speedliits ? (debatable).

IF it isn't a motorcycle lane, the motorcyclist was committing an offence.

Additionally: IF it is a motorcycle lane, then it should be marked with a 'stop sign' and solid white line at each junction to the left.

Legalities out of the way - Traffic in Thailand has often been described like flowing water without regard for regulations.

Legally or not, its universally accepted in Thailand and has become the norm for motorcyclists to ride up the inside shoulder. In fact its not uncommon for motorcyclists to be riding in either direction along the inside shoulder.

This is especially dangerous when a car is pulling out onto a dual carriage way and noses out across this shoulder looking right towards the oncoming traffic, I've had to stop in the past as a motocylist was approaching from the left on the wrong side of the road on one of these shoulder-lanes.

In Bangkok the motorcyclists ride down the pavement, when turning left in Bangkok (on Rama IV) in busy traffic this adds extra risk - while making a left turn we have to ensure that there are no motorcyclists riding down the pavement.

This is all nuts and just shows how careless the driving is in Thailand - many many motorcyclists ride around without any consideration for their own safety.

In this case: The car wasn't paying a great deal of attention to his surroundings (as many driver in Thailand fail to do). That said, it looks quite clear that the while the car clearly plays a roll in the accident, the motorcyclist is at fault.

To avoid the accident - the car should have 'eased over to the left' while indicating to protect his line and make his intentions clear - driving defensively. BUT, a motorcycle driving so carelessly may have simply rear-ended the car !!!... who would be at fault then? the motorcycle IMO.

IF it was a parked car would the motorcycle have hit it ? maybe...

I can't see how this isn't the motorcyclists fault.

"I can't see how this isn't the motorcyclists fault. " - Yes...that's the point, you can't see - we didn't see these vehicles up the road and the camera angle an lens can actually distort theremaining events as it is not the same as our vision and even that is unreliable....what we have hear is a second or even third hans ppartial visual account.

Thats fair enough - but based on your comments the only correct response to this Video is that we can't make a truly informed opinion of fault as we don't have all the information and evidence.....

Now, carry this forward, neither would a court, but they would use this evidence along with driver statements to come to a conclusion of fault. In this case they would be using the same information we are looking at.

Further more, this is simply a web-forum where opinions and ideas are being discussed and thrown around. It's made for an interesting thread. Had we all simply wrote 'we don't have enough evidence for a truly informed decision' the thread would be very boring... The fact is that this thread already has far more evidence than many of a similar nature.

So writing an incorrect answer is better??/

In court the collision would be accompanied with diagrams indicating the ACTUAL [position of the vehicles on impact and a scientific description of the lines taken by both vehicles before and up to the impact, there would also be an informed assessment of the speeds of the vehicles involved.

(e.g - I can see an alternative scenario where the car overtook the bike and then moved in front and braked, knowing the bike was there . but as there is no video if the road for 500 metres before we can't see that.)

lol @ ACTUAL and scientific. what ever planet that happens Thailand aint on it.

[bearpolar]

Even the dumb bible agrees that were going about it wrong

Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him. —Proverbs 26:4 (King James version)

[cumgranosalum]

Even the dumb bible agrees that were going about it wrong

Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him. —Proverbs 26:4 (King James version)

This is true, which is precisely why the car can be seen as cutting across the motorcycle as it is, as I have indicated before an extremely common scenario for traffic to travel on the shoulder - the attitude of the police - remember they frequently pass judgement as well, may well be that the car was at fault.

[bearpolar]

Looks my afflicted friend. Every long-term resident has agreed that you were wrong, one of them consults with law enforcement, i have shown to police officer just for the heck of it and they all put the motorbike at 100% of legal blame. DELETED

Edited February 18, 2016 by seedy
troll / flaming

[richard_smith237]

It looks to me as though the shoulder of the road is just that. But, it could be a motorcycle lane - I don't think so though.

That said, it has become the norm for motorcycles to ride down these lanes, anyone with experience driving here will be looking out for a motorcycle driving up the inside.

IF it is a motorcycle lane, the motorcycle should not be undertaking moving traffic - the motorcyclist has committed the office.

IF it is a motorcycle lane, the motorcycle has crossed a solid white line - the motorcyclist has committed the office.

IF it is a motorcycle lane, the motorcycle was riding too fast, apparently exceeding speedliits ? (debatable).

IF it isn't a motorcycle lane, the motorcyclist was committing an offence.

Additionally: IF it is a motorcycle lane, then it should be marked with a 'stop sign' and solid white line at each junction to the left.

Legalities out of the way - Traffic in Thailand has often been described like flowing water without regard for regulations.

Legally or not, its universally accepted in Thailand and has become the norm for motorcyclists to ride up the inside shoulder. In fact its not uncommon for motorcyclists to be riding in either direction along the inside shoulder.

This is especially dangerous when a car is pulling out onto a dual carriage way and noses out across this shoulder looking right towards the oncoming traffic, I've had to stop in the past as a motocylist was approaching from the left on the wrong side of the road on one of these shoulder-lanes.

In Bangkok the motorcyclists ride down the pavement, when turning left in Bangkok (on Rama IV) in busy traffic this adds extra risk - while making a left turn we have to ensure that there are no motorcyclists riding down the pavement.

This is all nuts and just shows how careless the driving is in Thailand - many many motorcyclists ride around without any consideration for their own safety.

In this case: The car wasn't paying a great deal of attention to his surroundings (as many driver in Thailand fail to do). That said, it looks quite clear that the while the car clearly plays a roll in the accident, the motorcyclist is at fault.

To avoid the accident - the car should have 'eased over to the left' while indicating to protect his line and make his intentions clear - driving defensively. BUT, a motorcycle driving so carelessly may have simply rear-ended the car !!!... who would be at fault then? the motorcycle IMO.

IF it was a parked car would the motorcycle have hit it ? maybe...

I can't see how this isn't the motorcyclists fault.

"I can't see how this isn't the motorcyclists fault. " - Yes...that's the point, you can't see - we didn't see these vehicles up the road and the camera angle an lens can actually distort theremaining events as it is not the same as our vision and even that is unreliable....what we have hear is a second or even third hans ppartial visual account.

Thats fair enough - but based on your comments the only correct response to this Video is that we can't make a truly informed opinion of fault as we don't have all the information and evidence.....

Now, carry this forward, neither would a court, but they would use this evidence along with driver statements to come to a conclusion of fault. In this case they would be using the same information we are looking at.

Further more, this is simply a web-forum where opinions and ideas are being discussed and thrown around. It's made for an interesting thread. Had we all simply wrote 'we don't have enough evidence for a truly informed decision' the thread would be very boring... The fact is that this thread already has far more evidence than many of a similar nature.

So writing an incorrect answer is better??/

In court the collision would be accompanied with diagrams indicating the ACTUAL [position of the vehicles on impact and a scientific description of the lines taken by both vehicles before and up to the impact, there would also be an informed assessment of the speeds of the vehicles involved.

(e.g - I can see an alternative scenario where the car overtook the bike and then moved in front and braked, knowing the bike was there . but as there is no video if the road for 500 metres before we can't see that.)

And a valid scenario that is... and thus a good input to the discussion.... much better than suggesting we don't have enough evidence and should't be drawing and discussing opinions on what is ultimately nothing more than an interesting thread containing the differing opinions of many...

It's quite valuable to learn how other road users in Thailand think, even if it is just the expat community having this discussion....

The presence or not or a specific motorcycle lane has been interesting - I for one was not aware of any specific motorcycle lanes in Thailand until reading this thread.

It's likely that the Op has lengthier footage showing a longer build up to this accident which may or may not agree with your scenario. My guess is that as the Op omitted any earlier footage he saw little relevance in providing it. Op ???

[cumgranosalum]

Looks my afflicted friend. Every long-term resident has agreed that you were wrong, one of them consults with law enforcement, i have shown to police officer just for the heck of it and they all put the motorbike at 100% of legal blame.

It seems you don't understand how a discussion goes.....you seem to try to dichotomise and make false assertions about both the subject and those presenting an argument.

Where am I defending either driver? I'm not - I'm pointing out the pitfalls of making black and white judgments when the evidence to support them is nowhere near as clear as you seem to think

Edited February 18, 2016 by seedy
Quote hidden post

[kartman]

The discussion is about the norm 4 posts then descends with lots of hot air unfortuently the Balloon Festival finished on Sunday .

[ardokano]

where is in Kalasin?

i wamt see

Tommorow i come to Kalasin be few day

[Tim16]

where is in Kalasin?

i wamt see

Tommorow i come to Kalasin be few day

main road No 12 from Khon Kaen to Kalasin

You can see Tesco Lotus sign on opposite side of road

[seedy]

Topic has run its course

CLOSED