Evidence from UK's National Crime Agency 'critical' in sentencing Koh Tao killers to death

[DiscoDan]

I have kept loads of screenshots of the activists attacking AH on FB and copies of Ian Yarwood letter

I bet you have, DiscoDan . Some might consider that "stalking" . Tell me one thing though, why do you have such an obsession with the Rohingya?

I have kept copies so when the truthers try to twist the version of events I can remind them of the lies that they are spreading,

Pretty much everything the activists posted was a lie a good example was the photo spread on social media that confirmed WP was not running man even though this evidence was never proved in court as Mr Gait didn't take the stand yet they spread is a fact deceiving the public.

[IslandLover]

DiscoDan, on 21 Feb 2016 - 12:09, said:

Here is Mr Holmes talking about the hair

I'm afraid Robert Holmes was totally wrong with his assessment about the hair and he was duly challenged on this point by those who were in court to hear ALL the evidence. Fallen hair and planted is his own speculation.

[IslandLover]

DiscoDan, on 21 Feb 2016 - 17:41, said:

IslandLover, on 21 Feb 2016 - 16:25, said:

DiscoDan, on 21 Feb 2016 - 06:11, said:

I have kept loads of screenshots of the activists attacking AH on FB and copies of Ian Yarwood letter

I bet you have, DiscoDan . Some might consider that "stalking" . Tell me one thing though, why do you have such an obsession with the Rohingya?

I have kept copies so when the truthers try to twist the version of events I can remind them of the lies that they are spreading,

Pretty much everything the activists posted was a lie a good example was the photo spread on social media that confirmed WP was not running man even though this evidence was never proved in court as Mr Gait didn't take the stand yet they spread is a fact deceiving the public.

No doubt others have taken sceenshots of the lies you have been spreading. You didn't answer this though:

why do you have such an obsession with the Rohingya?

[DiscoDan]

DiscoDan, on 21 Feb 2016 - 17:41, said:

IslandLover, on 21 Feb 2016 - 16:25, said:

DiscoDan, on 21 Feb 2016 - 06:11, said:

I have kept loads of screenshots of the activists attacking AH on FB and copies of Ian Yarwood letter

I bet you have, DiscoDan . Some might consider that "stalking" . Tell me one thing though, why do you have such an obsession with the Rohingya?

I have kept copies so when the truthers try to twist the version of events I can remind them of the lies that they are spreading,

Pretty much everything the activists posted was a lie a good example was the photo spread on social media that confirmed WP was not running man even though this evidence was never proved in court as Mr Gait didn't take the stand yet they spread is a fact deceiving the public.

No doubt others have taken sceenshots of the lies you have been spreading. You didn't answer this though:

why do you have such an obsession with the Rohingya?

Ok list one lie I have told, and JH tweet does not count as I admitted it was a mistake and asked mods to remove it.

[DiscoDan]

DiscoDan, on 21 Feb 2016 - 12:09, said:

Here is Mr Holmes talking about the hair

I'm afraid Robert Holmes was totally wrong with his assessment about the hair and he was duly challenged on this point by those who were in court to hear ALL the evidence. Fallen hair and planted is his own speculation.

Challenged by who link ? or are you now trying to discredit Robert Holmes ?

[IslandLover]

lucky11, on 21 Feb 2016 - 14:20, said:

AleG, on 21 Feb 2016 - 14:06, said:

JLCrab, on 21 Feb 2016 - 08:44, said:

To the overly nested post above about the Defense getting ready to submit an Appeal:

I remember after the OJ Simpson verdict was announced, that a top LA Police rep was asked, now the OJ had been acquitted, are they going to go after the 'real killer'? The officer flatly replied: "No - we got our man."

So if it should transpire that the Appeals Court reached a decision to reverse the Samui Court's guilty verdict, the Court might also strongly state that they were not making any decision as to whether the 2 Burmese convicted actually did or were accessories to the crimes, just that the Prosecution had not provided proof beyond a reasonable doubt as to their guilt.

The RTP Thai Police might at that point say, as did the LA Police, that we don't agree with that decision, but we believe we have found the real killers and that no further investigation is warranted or will be performed to find others that might be responsible.

On the other hand, the people defending those two have already said that they want to get them free, whether they did it or not:

“They should be released,” he said. “That is not to say they are guilty or not guilty, but the case against them is not strong.”

So, justice doesn't come into it - it appears to be a mission to get them released no matter whether they committed this crime or not with success being regarded purely on achieving this outcome, no matter how it is obtained, even if it is on technicalities in the process or loopholes in the laws!!

It appears that obtaining their release is the sole aim of the game and everything else is peripheral to this. In other words, they would be happy to get them off the hook (even if they suspected their guilt in the crime)!! How can they live with their consciences? I know that I couldn't.

That's how legal defence works, I'm afraid. The job of a defence lawyer is to defend their client, no matter what. Morality and conscience doesn't come into it. The guilty have been set free on many occasions in western courts, but by the same token, the innocent have been found guilty on many occasions. The accused's fate always depends on the skill of the lawyers. Should the B2 be acquitted in the Appellate Court, the prosecution will automatically appeal that decision and so it goes on.

[DiscoDan]

This is the problem with the truthers for the past year it was UK government & Thai government covering the murders for a powerful thai family, now they have been found guilty it is all AH fault and defense team they will blame anyone and everyone as long as its not the B2 crazy.

[DiscoDan]

No doubt others have taken sceenshots of the lies you have been spreading. You didn't answer this though:

why do you have such an obsession with the Rohingya?

Please stay on topic this is about the Koh Tao case.

[Khun Han]

Nope. The photo I provided is of the front AND back (hint: look at where the camera is on the two images). Re: internal wiring. You're imagining things.

BS, this is the photo of an iPhone 4s that you posted:

post-246493-0-70035300-1456058875.jpeg

On the left side it shows the inside of the rear panel and on the right the back of the phone with the battery in place.

If you are going to be dishonest at least try to do it in less blatant way.

AleG, look closely: on the left image (the front of the phone), the phone's camera is top right; on the right image (the back of the phone), the phone's camera is top left. Undertand now?

[IslandLover]

DiscoDan, on 21 Feb 2016 - 18:15, said:

IslandLover, on 21 Feb 2016 - 17:54, said:

DiscoDan, on 21 Feb 2016 - 12:09, said:DiscoDan, on 21 Feb 2016 - 12:09, said:

Here is Mr Holmes talking about the hair

I'm afraid Robert Holmes was totally wrong with his assessment about the hair and he was duly challenged on this point by those who were in court to hear ALL the evidence. Fallen hair and planted is his own speculation.

Challenged by who link ? or are you now trying to discredit Robert Holmes ?

Just go to Andy Hall's facebook and read the entire conversations on or around 12th October 2015 after the trial had ended. No, I'm not trying to discredit Robert Holmes but not everything he says is correct, just as not everything Ian Yarwood says is correct either IMO. I prefer to believe people who were in court every day to hear ALL the evidence.

[IslandLover]

DiscoDan, on 21 Feb 2016 - 18:22, said:

IslandLover, on 21 Feb 2016 - 17:56, said:

No doubt others have taken sceenshots of the lies you have been spreading. You didn't answer this though:

why do you have such an obsession with the Rohingya?

Please stay on topic this is about the Koh Tao case.

It is all about the Koh Tao case and Andy Hall's part in it. Why do you constantly link AH with the Rohingya in a negative way?

[smedly]

Was this under duress or without?

With legal representation or not?

I have no idea, I'm merely pointing out the ridiculousness of the posters apparent reasoning.

.........and not making a very convincing job of it!!

You cannot use the 'so called' torture aspect in your answer as the judge stated that "this carries no weight", so you should refrain from using this as part of your argument in future posts as it adds nothing to the case and takes nothing away from the judges guilty verdict!!

you are referring to a Thai judge, Thai justice system and a Thai court, most people here are referring to globally accepted international standards and procedures, something that Thailand seems to cherry pick what it wants to use and ignores the rest, one of the criticisms is just how antiquated and inept Thailand is compared to developed countries, there is no point in discussing what the Thai judge said as it is meaningless to most of the reasonable people here, the fact is that (and it has been stated many times by people that know) this case would never have got through the front gate of a court in the west and if it did it would be over in a matter of hours, these threads are in the main are questioning/challenging the Thai justice system - the Thai police and the prosecution so there is no real point in saying "the Thai judge stated that" - it is meaningless

If However the Thai Police/Prosecution had been able to offer amongst other things

- original DNA samples so they could be retested and independently verified

- a proper internationally accepted "Chain of Custody" of all evidence

- proper details of injuries on David's body and how he may have got them

- fingerprints and DNA from all the phones

- clothing properly tested and retain from the victims

- cctv footage seized from certain establishments (like the last place they were seen alive)

- cctv footage of the accused leaving the crime scene

- interviewed the suspects with proper legal council and representation present

Then I would be firmly in the guilty camp

As it stands it is impossible for me to believe that these two men can be found guilty of anything let alone be charged, prosecuted and sentenced to death, too much of this so called evidence can just be made up and that is regrettable.

I honestly wish the police had done a stellar job but unfortunately they didn't, I have for many months kept an open mind to this case and to an extent I am neither in the guilty or innocent camp - but I need to see certain things that would apply in a modern evolved justice system and it just isn't happening with this case, a catalog of errors (and they are errors) leaves me unconvinced, I come from a background of knowing about these things and sometimes I wish I didn't, are B2 guilty ? well by any standards I am aware of or in fact common sense - then for me it is impossible to conclude that B2 are guilty, that conclusion could be from a purely lawful point of view but it is not just purely about that - there is just something that stinks really bad about this whole thing

good night

[Khun Han]

Anyway, I've yet to see an iphone 4s with a curved back cover, and I doubt I ever will.

[JLCrab]

< snip >

I honestly wish the police had done a stellar job but unfortunately they didn't, I have for many months kept an open mind to this case and to an extent I am neither in the guilty or innocent camp - but I need to see certain things that would apply in a modern evolved justice system and it just isn't happening with this case, a catalog of errors (and they are errors) leaves me unconvinced, I come from a background of knowing about these things and sometimes I wish I didn't, are B2 guilty ? well by any standards I am aware of or in fact common sense - then for me it is impossible to conclude that B2 are guilty, that conclusion could be from a purely lawful point of view but it is not just purely about that - there is just something that stinks really bad about this whole thing

good night

From the above: I come from a background of knowing about these things and sometimes I wish I didn't, Such a burden to have to carry through this life.

[canuckamuck]

AleG, Lucky11, or any of the other of the guilty beyond any reasonable doubt camp: What phone did Chris Ware identify to be David's the day after the murders?

[Lancashireman]

< snip >

I honestly wish the police had done a stellar job but unfortunately they didn't, I have for many months kept an open mind to this case and to an extent I am neither in the guilty or innocent camp - but I need to see certain things that would apply in a modern evolved justice system and it just isn't happening with this case, a catalog of errors (and they are errors) leaves me unconvinced, I come from a background of knowing about these things and sometimes I wish I didn't, are B2 guilty ? well by any standards I am aware of or in fact common sense - then for me it is impossible to conclude that B2 are guilty, that conclusion could be from a purely lawful point of view but it is not just purely about that - there is just something that stinks really bad about this whole thing

good night

All a bit melodramatic, this isn't about you and your burden. Try the victims families, they have to cry forever.

But I agree the two lads are picking up the tab for a catalogue of disastrous errors, so I guess their burden is even greater? But they were probably in the vicinity of the crime, so by association, they're in the frame...

[greenchair]

To the overly nested post above about the Defense getting ready to submit an Appeal:

I remember after the OJ Simpson verdict was announced, that a top LA Police rep was asked, now the OJ had been acquitted, are they going to go after the 'real killer'? The officer flatly replied: "No - we got our man."

So if it should transpire that the Appeals Court reached a decision to reverse the Samui Court's guilty verdict, the Court might also strongly state that they were not making any decision as to whether the 2 Burmese convicted actually did or were accessories to the crimes, just that the Prosecution had not provided proof beyond a reasonable doubt as to their guilt.

The RTP Thai Police might at that point say, as did the LA Police, that we don't agree with that decision, but we believe we have found the real killers and that no further investigation is warranted or will be performed to find others that might be responsible.

On the other hand, the people defending those two have already said that they want to get them free, whether they did it or not:

They should be released, he said. That is not to say they are guilty or not guilty, but the case against them is not strong.

So, justice doesn't come into it - it appears to be a mission to get them released no matter whether they committed this crime or not with success being regarded purely on achieving this outcome, no matter how it is obtained, even if it is on technicalities in the process or loopholes in the laws!!

It appears that obtaining their release is the sole aim of the game and everything else is peripheral to this. In other words, they would be happy to get them off the hook (even if they suspected their guilt in the crime)!! How can they live with their consciences? I know that I couldn't.

That's right, AH,Yarmouth, and the other lawyer are basically saying even if they guilty they should be set free because the investigation did not follow exact procedures. Their speil is all evidence should be ignored and thrown out because of technicalities. They have absolutely not a care, if the b2 are guilty as hell.

We are saying, yes there were things that could have been done better, but with all of the dna, testimony of b2, testimony of professionals, video footage, faulty alibi, possession of items, all of this put together as a unit does show reasonable doubt of their innocence. therefore the technicalities and fine tuning of the case are irrelevant.

The best they can hope for on a appeal is a change from the death sentence to life. I really think that is all the defense is hoping for also.

[boomerangutang]

Yes, the hair was indeed tested. It still had the root attached (testified to in court), yet the RTP lab was still unable to extract any useful DNA from it apparently. How convenient.

RTP lab couldn't find any DNA (other than Hannah's blood) on the hoe, either. If this was a baseball game, they'd be striking out every time at bat.

So what's the latest the hair was planted by the police then they found dna but lied about it ? come on you will have to try better than that ?

No one has suggested the hair was planted, but you. As for 'lying' by RTP: The hard part would be finding where they told any bits of truth - about anything related to evidence in the crime.

[Moonsterk]

To the overly nested post above about the Defense getting ready to submit an Appeal:

I remember after the OJ Simpson verdict was announced, that a top LA Police rep was asked, now the OJ had been acquitted, are they going to go after the 'real killer'? The officer flatly replied: "No - we got our man."

So if it should transpire that the Appeals Court reached a decision to reverse the Samui Court's guilty verdict, the Court might also strongly state that they were not making any decision as to whether the 2 Burmese convicted actually did or were accessories to the crimes, just that the Prosecution had not provided proof beyond a reasonable doubt as to their guilt.

The RTP Thai Police might at that point say, as did the LA Police, that we don't agree with that decision, but we believe we have found the real killers and that no further investigation is warranted or will be performed to find others that might be responsible.

On the other hand, the people defending those two have already said that they want to get them free, whether they did it or not:

They should be released, he said. That is not to say they are guilty or not guilty, but the case against them is not strong.

So, justice doesn't come into it - it appears to be a mission to get them released no matter whether they committed this crime or not with success being regarded purely on achieving this outcome, no matter how it is obtained, even if it is on technicalities in the process or loopholes in the laws!!

It appears that obtaining their release is the sole aim of the game and everything else is peripheral to this. In other words, they would be happy to get them off the hook (even if they suspected their guilt in the crime)!! How can they live with their consciences? I know that I couldn't.

That's right, AH,Yarmouth, and the other lawyer are basically saying even if they guilty they should be set free because the investigation did not follow exact procedures. Their speil is all evidence should be ignored and thrown out because of technicalities. They have absolutely not a care, if the b2 are guilty as hell.

We are saying, yes there were things that could have been done better, but with all of the dna, testimony of b2, testimony of professionals, video footage, faulty alibi, possession of items, all of this put together as a unit does show reasonable doubt of their innocence. therefore the technicalities and fine tuning of the case are irrelevant.

The best they can hope for on a appeal is a change from the death sentence to life. I really think that is all the defense is hoping for also.

I don't think any appeal will go differently, too much reputation to be lost.

I have begun to think their counsel was remiss in not advising them to just plead guilty. At this point, they may well have spent less time in jail, maybe even gotten a pardon by now.

[Moonsterk]

DiscoDan, on 21 Feb 2016 - 08:27, said:

Another lie that was told was the blonde hair was never tested.

Robert Holmes confirmed it was tested but it was a fallen hair to get a dna sample it has to be pulled out, and as Hannah's UK autopsy showed no sign of resistance this would of confirmed it was unlikely someone pulled it out in the attack.

Yes, the hair was indeed tested. It still had the root attached (testified to in court), yet the RTP lab was still unable to extract any useful DNA from it apparently. How convenient.

So what's the latest the hair was planted by the police then they found dna but lied about it ? come on you will have to try better than that ?

I've noticed this too in this switched, then analysis messed up theory.

If police planted DNA, then seems they would have made sure the processing of it was airtight. It just makes no sense to plant evidence, and then ALSO screw up the lab work.

[seedy]

Troll / Flaming and Off Topic posts removed / edited

[smedly]

DiscoDan, on 21 Feb 2016 - 08:27, said:

Another lie that was told was the blonde hair was never tested.

Robert Holmes confirmed it was tested but it was a fallen hair to get a dna sample it has to be pulled out, and as Hannah's UK autopsy showed no sign of resistance this would of confirmed it was unlikely someone pulled it out in the attack.

Yes, the hair was indeed tested. It still had the root attached (testified to in court), yet the RTP lab was still unable to extract any useful DNA from it apparently. How convenient.

So what's the latest the hair was planted by the police then they found dna but lied about it ? come on you will have to try better than that ?

I've noticed this too in this switched, then analysis messed up theory.

If police planted DNA, then seems they would have made sure the processing of it was airtight. It just makes no sense to plant evidence, and then ALSO screw up the lab work.

In general you cannot plant DNA because original samples should always be available to verify the authenticity of crime scene samples, there might be a few exceptions were it may be possible but - blood is blood - sperm is sperm - sweat is sweat, I suppose if someone was bitten to death then you could manipulate saliva samples which is why there also has to be a strict Chain of Custody with all evidence

[Moonsterk]

Putting a hair, or semen sample in a lab work order is certainly possible- and chain of custody can be simply forged- easy as pie.

So why do that AND mess up the lab work ( which would require some cooperation among staffers, too )

In fact the more I think about this case, the more I think the boys were involved in some way- or one of them specifically, maybe not the murder, but the initial stages of the rape.

Just seems like maybe the boys will be boys- rape the farang party thing got out of hand. A third party. The locals weren't killing victims before- this case is different from some factor not yet even touched upon.

Edited February 22, 2016 by Moonsterk

[DiscoDan]

Yes, the hair was indeed tested. It still had the root attached (testified to in court), yet the RTP lab was still unable to extract any useful DNA from it apparently. How convenient.

RTP lab couldn't find any DNA (other than Hannah's blood) on the hoe, either. If this was a baseball game, they'd be striking out every time at bat.

So what's the latest the hair was planted by the police then they found dna but lied about it ? come on you will have to try better than that ?

No one has suggested the hair was planted, but you. As for 'lying' by RTP: The hard part would be finding where they told any bits of truth - about anything related to evidence in the crime.

Robert Holmes suggested it, please don't spread lies.

[jayjay78]

Yes, the hair was indeed tested. It still had the root attached (testified to in court), yet the RTP lab was still unable to extract any useful DNA from it apparently. How convenient.

RTP lab couldn't find any DNA (other than Hannah's blood) on the hoe, either. If this was a baseball game, they'd be striking out every time at bat.

So what's the latest the hair was planted by the police then they found dna but lied about it ? come on you will have to try better than that ?

No one has suggested the hair was planted, but you. As for 'lying' by RTP: The hard part would be finding where they told any bits of truth - about anything related to evidence in the crime.

Robert Holmes suggested it, please don't spread lies.

No he asked an open question, ditto spreading lies

[DiscoDan]

AleG, Lucky11, or any of the other of the guilty beyond any reasonable doubt camp: What phone did Chris Ware identify to be David's the day after the murders?

David had two phones the iphone that WP stole (his Uk phone) and also had a cheap thai phone for making calls

[007cableguy]

To the overly nested post above about the Defense getting ready to submit an Appeal:

I remember after the OJ Simpson verdict was announced, that a top LA Police rep was asked, now the OJ had been acquitted, are they going to go after the 'real killer'? The officer flatly replied: "No - we got our man."

So if it should transpire that the Appeals Court reached a decision to reverse the Samui Court's guilty verdict, the Court might also strongly state that they were not making any decision as to whether the 2 Burmese convicted actually did or were accessories to the crimes, just that the Prosecution had not provided proof beyond a reasonable doubt as to their guilt.

The RTP Thai Police might at that point say, as did the LA Police, that we don't agree with that decision, but we believe we have found the real killers and that no further investigation is warranted or will be performed to find others that might be responsible.

On the other hand, the people defending those two have already said that they want to get them free, whether they did it or not:

They should be released, he said. That is not to say they are guilty or not guilty, but the case against them is not strong.

So, justice doesn't come into it - it appears to be a mission to get them released no matter whether they committed this crime or not with success being regarded purely on achieving this outcome, no matter how it is obtained, even if it is on technicalities in the process or loopholes in the laws!!

It appears that obtaining their release is the sole aim of the game and everything else is peripheral to this. In other words, they would be happy to get them off the hook (even if they suspected their guilt in the crime)!! How can they live with their consciences? I know that I couldn't.

That's right, AH,Yarmouth, and the other lawyer are basically saying even if they guilty they should be set free because the investigation did not follow exact procedures. Their speil is all evidence should be ignored and thrown out because of technicalities. They have absolutely not a care, if the b2 are guilty as hell.

We are saying, yes there were things that could have been done better, but with all of the dna, testimony of b2, testimony of professionals, video footage, faulty alibi, possession of items, all of this put together as a unit does show reasonable doubt of their innocence. therefore the technicalities and fine tuning of the case are irrelevant.

The best they can hope for on a appeal is a change from the death sentence to life. I really think that is all the defense is hoping for also.

Just highlighted one of your points on which you like them put to death .

Please enlighten me on the masses of DNA? I've been following this case for a while and not seen any verified DNA that finds them guilty only hearsay from a very corrupt police force!!

[phuketandsee]

2.55 you will see the police showing the broken phone to Chris Ware

And he shakes his head.

[jayjay78]

AleG, Lucky11, or any of the other of the guilty beyond any reasonable doubt camp: What phone did Chris Ware identify to be David's the day after the murders?

David had two phones the iphone that WP stole (his Uk phone) and also had a cheap thai phone for making calls

Link to that, you've stated you only post facts?

[Moonsterk]

2.55 you will see the police showing the broken phone to Chris Ware [ video removed]

And he shakes his head.

(Go to post to view vid, I'm not reposting it)

But you have no idea what he's shaking his head about. What question was he just asked? Was he actually responding to a question you've theorized he was asked?

This is exactly the kind of drawn conclusion from pure supposition that I find the average...er, yeah Truther incapable of overcoming and it is rampant on all threads and discussions, especially the latest Koh Tao drowning death. It's freaking tiresome to constantly be correcting assumptions when good juicy debate of known facts is sought. [sighs sarcastically]

Edited February 22, 2016 by Moonsterk