Nationality Act 08 - Loss of Thai Nationality - Documents?

[chillo]

Fiance wants to give up Thai nationality.

My fiance had Thai nationality by birth (mother is Thai) with a Lao Dad.

She has since received her Lao Citizenship with ID Card, passport. Stayed in Laos for past >5years

Question is from the Thai Nationality Act 2008,

Section 17 - Loss of Thai nationality if resided in a foreign country

- Has resided in a foreign country of which father has nationality for >5 years --> YES

- Evidence to show that he makes use of nationality of father --> Has a share in the house there--> YES

Minister orders the revocation of Thai nationality is stated

Section 21 - Child of father who loses nationality

- Person of Thai nationality who was born of alien father and may acquire nationality of father shall lose Thai nationality if he obtains an alien ID card according to law of registration of aliens--> YES (She has ID card)

Section 22 - Renunciation of Thai nationality

- Person of Thai nationality who has been naturalised as an alien...... shall lose Thai nationality.--> YES (If naturalised as an Alien means getting Lao citizenship)

So how do I prove that she is no longer a Thai citizen without having to go to each Thai government office.

Do you think a lawyer can help? Appreciate suggestions guys! Willing to go through paid consultant if it works!

[kriswillems]

These laws are not enforced. Why would you give up a second nationality (as a woman - so, no army service)? I see only disadvantages.

[chillo]

These laws are not enforced. Why would you give up a second nationality (as a woman - so, no army service)? I see only disadvantages.

We've taken in to account the disadvantages and decided on private reasons to go ahead.

Question is how do we get this on paper to demonstrate this unenforced law

[ubonjoe]

You cannot get proof of something that has not happened. I am sure the following has not been done.

From 17 "The revocation of Thai nationality in (1) or (2) shall lie with the discretion of the

Minister"

Section 21. I think that means getting an alien identification card here not in another country.

"Section 21. A person of Thai nationality who was born of an alien father or mother and may acquire the nationality of his father or mother according to law on nationality of his

father or mother shall lose Thai nationality if he obtains an alien identification card under the law on alien registration

The part in bold in the following quote of 22 means applying for nationality for here as an alien IMO

Section 22. A person of Thai nationality who has been naturalized as an alien, or who has renounced Thai nationality, or whose Thai nationality has been revoked, shall lose Thai nationality.

I think she will have to submit an application to have her Thai nationality revoked. She should be able to do that at the embassy in Vientiane.

Why does she want to revoke or have her Thai nationality revoked?

[chillo]

You cannot get proof of something that has not happened. I am sure the following has not been done.

From 17 "The revocation of Thai nationality in (1) or (2) shall lie with the discretion of the

Minister"

Section 21. I think that means getting an alien identification card here not in another country.

"Section 21. A person of Thai nationality who was born of an alien father or mother and may acquire the nationality of his father or mother according to law on nationality of his

father or mother shall lose Thai nationality if he obtains an alien identification card under the law on alien registration

The part in bold in the following quote of 22 means applying for nationality for here as an alien IMO

Section 22. A person of Thai nationality who has been naturalized as an alien, or who has renounced Thai nationality, or whose Thai nationality has been revoked, shall lose Thai nationality.

I think she will have to submit an application to have her Thai nationality revoked. She should be able to do that at the embassy in Vientiane.

Why does she want to revoke or have her Thai nationality revoked?

Section 21

You mean alien identification card is the process of getting one in Thai from Thai authorities?

Section 22

Being naturalised as an alien - does that note mean getting naturalised as per her father's citizenship i.e. Laos?

So there is no such law that automatically revokes Thai citizenship when you get a foreign citizenship?

sorry for all the questions but I am getting confused somewhat. Thanks for clarifying in advance.

Meanwhile, I am also trying to get hold of a Thai lawyer to clarify. But always appreciate everyone's input here.

[sunnyjim5]

I fail to understand why, if your wife has obtained Lao Nationality, she wants to formally renounce her Thai nationality.

What are the advantages which would justify the "paper-chase" and the expense associated with hiring a lawyer ?

She could just as easily fail to renew her Thai passport/ ID card and use her Lao status exclusively.

[ubonjoe]

You cannot get proof of something that has not happened. I am sure the following has not been done.

From 17 "The revocation of Thai nationality in (1) or (2) shall lie with the discretion of the

Minister"

Section 21. I think that means getting an alien identification card here not in another country.

"Section 21. A person of Thai nationality who was born of an alien father or mother and may acquire the nationality of his father or mother according to law on nationality of his

father or mother shall lose Thai nationality if he obtains an alien identification card under the law on alien registration

The part in bold in the following quote of 22 means applying for nationality for here as an alien IMO

Section 22. A person of Thai nationality who has been naturalized as an alien, or who has renounced Thai nationality, or whose Thai nationality has been revoked, shall lose Thai nationality.

I think she will have to submit an application to have her Thai nationality revoked. She should be able to do that at the embassy in Vientiane.

Why does she want to revoke or have her Thai nationality revoked?

Section 21

You mean alien identification card is the process of getting one in Thai from Thai authorities?

Section 22

Being naturalised as an alien - does that note mean getting naturalised as per her father's citizenship i.e. Laos?

So there is no such law that automatically revokes Thai citizenship when you get a foreign citizenship?

sorry for all the questions but I am getting confused somewhat. Thanks for clarifying in advance.

Meanwhile, I am also trying to get hold of a Thai lawyer to clarify. But always appreciate everyone's input here.

Section 21 is applying for an alien ID card here in the country. Thailand issues special ID cards for stateless people and others.

Section 22 is for applying for naturalization here as a foreigner. She did not have to apply for Lao nationality since she got it from birth.

There is nothing in Thai law that revokes a Thais citizenship automatically it has to be done formally and it is not something that can easily be done.

She should contact the embassy in Vientiane. I am sure she can apply to have her Thai citizenship revoked there.

[chillo]

You cannot get proof of something that has not happened. I am sure the following has not been done.

From 17 "The revocation of Thai nationality in (1) or (2) shall lie with the discretion of the

Minister"

Section 21. I think that means getting an alien identification card here not in another country.

"Section 21. A person of Thai nationality who was born of an alien father or mother and may acquire the nationality of his father or mother according to law on nationality of his

father or mother shall lose Thai nationality if he obtains an alien identification card under the law on alien registration

The part in bold in the following quote of 22 means applying for nationality for here as an alien IMO

Section 22. A person of Thai nationality who has been naturalized as an alien, or who has renounced Thai nationality, or whose Thai nationality has been revoked, shall lose Thai nationality.

I think she will have to submit an application to have her Thai nationality revoked. She should be able to do that at the embassy in Vientiane.

Why does she want to revoke or have her Thai nationality revoked?

Section 21

You mean alien identification card is the process of getting one in Thai from Thai authorities?

Section 22

Being naturalised as an alien - does that note mean getting naturalised as per her father's citizenship i.e. Laos?

So there is no such law that automatically revokes Thai citizenship when you get a foreign citizenship?

sorry for all the questions but I am getting confused somewhat. Thanks for clarifying in advance.

Meanwhile, I am also trying to get hold of a Thai lawyer to clarify. But always appreciate everyone's input here.

Section 21 is applying for an alien ID card here in the country. Thailand issues special ID cards for stateless people and others.

Section 22 is for applying for naturalization here as a foreigner. She did not have to apply for Lao nationality since she got it from birth.

There is nothing in Thai law that revokes a Thais citizenship automatically it has to be done formally and it is not something that can easily be done.

She should contact the embassy in Vientiane. I am sure she can apply to have her Thai citizenship revoked there.

Section 22 - She had to apply for Lao citizenship as she was born in Thailand. Hope that clarifies

[steve187]

if she is only a Lao citizen, will that not cause trouble with your marriage

[chillo]

if she is only a Lao citizen, will that not cause trouble with your marriage

No, we are registered in Lao

[BritTim]

If your fiance wishes to renounce her Thai citizenship as some kind of protest, I would try to talk her out of the idea. No one on an official level will be in any way affected by such a protest. On the other hand, there is potential for all kinds of practical issues in the future should she go ahead. A second nationality is a valuable asset, not to be discarded lightly.

[chillo]

If your fiance wishes to renounce her Thai citizenship as some kind of protest, I would try to talk her out of the idea. No one on an official level will be in any way affected by such a protest. On the other hand, there is potential for all kinds of practical issues in the future should she go ahead. A second nationality is a valuable asset, not to be discarded lightly.

Thanks for your concern but we have evaluated and are going ahead.

Anyone used TilaLegal?

[ubonjoe]

Section 22 - She had to apply for Lao citizenship as she was born in Thailand. Hope that clarifies

It means applying under one of the sections of Chapter 1 of the nationality act.

Her only choice is to revoke her nationality.

"Section 15. Except in the case under Section 14, a person who has Thai nationality and other nationality, or who acquires Thai nationality by naturalization may, if he desires to renounce Thai nationality, file an application with the competent official according to such form and in the manner prescribed in the Ministerial Regulations.

The granting or refusal of permission for renunciation of Thai nationality shall lie with the discretion of the Minister."

Edit: Why have you not mentioned my suggestion of contacting the Thai embassy in Vientiane. She could do it under section 15.

[samran]

Probably best to make a formal renunciation at police special branch in Bangkok. There is a section which handle the naturalisation and renunciation for women.

Once the application is made, then it goes through the normal consideration process and becomes offical when announced in the Royal Gazette. I am unsure of timeframes.

None of the clauses you speak off apply to your wife. She did not techncially naturalise as Lao, she was born with it. The rules about ID cards etc only apply to those who have gained Thai citizenship via being born to PR's in Thailand, or those who have Thai citizenship but for some strange reason, decide to apply for Thai permanent residency via their second nationality.

I am not sure if the Thai embassy in Vientiane is equipped to handle accepting a renunciation application, so you'll have to ask. Even if they do, it has to have Ministers aprroval and be proclaimed in the Royal Gazette. Not a fast process.

As to why she is giving it up, very strange indeed and I hope she knows what she is giving up. In her case, it will be hard to get it back.

[chillo]

Probably best to make a formal renunciation at police special branch in Bangkok. There is a section which handle the naturalisation and renunciation for women.

Once the application is made, then it goes through the normal consideration process and becomes offical when announced in the Royal Gazette. I am unsure of timeframes.

None of the clauses you speak off apply to your wife. She did not techncially naturalise as Lao, she was born with it. The rules about ID cards etc only apply to those who have gained Thai citizenship via being born to PR's in Thailand, or those who have Thai citizenship but for some strange reason, decide to apply for Thai permanent residency via their second nationality.

I am not sure if the Thai embassy in Vientiane is equipped to handle accepting a renunciation application, so you'll have to ask. Even if they do, it has to have Ministers aprroval and be proclaimed in the Royal Gazette. Not a fast process.

As to why she is giving it up, very strange indeed and I hope she knows what she is giving up. In her case, it will be hard to get it back.

Actually she was born only with Thai, and then after a couple of years received Lao citizenship when her father brought her to Laos.

Does that consider as naturalisation?

[sunnyjim5]

Probably best to make a formal renunciation at police special branch in Bangkok. There is a section which handle the naturalisation and renunciation for women.

Once the application is made, then it goes through the normal consideration process and becomes offical when announced in the Royal Gazette. I am unsure of timeframes.

None of the clauses you speak off apply to your wife. She did not techncially naturalise as Lao, she was born with it. The rules about ID cards etc only apply to those who have gained Thai citizenship via being born to PR's in Thailand, or those who have Thai citizenship but for some strange reason, decide to apply for Thai permanent residency via their second nationality.

I am not sure if the Thai embassy in Vientiane is equipped to handle accepting a renunciation application, so you'll have to ask. Even if they do, it has to have Ministers aprroval and be proclaimed in the Royal Gazette. Not a fast process.

As to why she is giving it up, very strange indeed and I hope she knows what she is giving up. In her case, it will be hard to get it back.

Actually she was born only with Thai, and then after a couple of years received Lao citizenship when her father brought her to Laos.

Does that consider as naturalisation?

If her father was a Laos citizen then his daughter was also Laotian from the time of her birth.

[samran]

Probably best to make a formal renunciation at police special branch in Bangkok. There is a section which handle the naturalisation and renunciation for women.

Once the application is made, then it goes through the normal consideration process and becomes offical when announced in the Royal Gazette. I am unsure of timeframes.

None of the clauses you speak off apply to your wife. She did not techncially naturalise as Lao, she was born with it. The rules about ID cards etc only apply to those who have gained Thai citizenship via being born to PR's in Thailand, or those who have Thai citizenship but for some strange reason, decide to apply for Thai permanent residency via their second nationality.

I am not sure if the Thai embassy in Vientiane is equipped to handle accepting a renunciation application, so you'll have to ask. Even if they do, it has to have Ministers aprroval and be proclaimed in the Royal Gazette. Not a fast process.

As to why she is giving it up, very strange indeed and I hope she knows what she is giving up. In her case, it will be hard to get it back.

Actually she was born only with Thai, and then after a couple of years received Lao citizenship when her father brought her to Laos.

Does that consider as naturalisation?

No.

[ubonjoe]

I found some info about doing a renunciation of citizenship on the Berlin embassy website in Thai (google translate works but not perfect): http://thaiembassy.de/site/index.php/th/consular-services/official-document/nationality

Germany does not allow dual nationalities so there is some info about that side of things on the page.

[chillo]

Thanks Ubonjoe.

When the law uses the word "Alien" does it not mean an individual not of Thai nationality?

I was checking the definition and it comes up as

An alien is a person from a foreign country who is not a citizen of the host country. They may be there to visit or just stay for a while.

So does it not mean a foreigner in Thailand. So she's of a thai mother and alien father.

I'm still pursuing this route for renounciation.

Last question. Isn't also that a law that states that an individual with dual citizenship (by means of a foreign parent) has a choice to revoke at age 21.

Can't find the link now as I read it somewhere else. Anyone has insight into this?

[harrry]

Remember if she keeps her citizenship she can live in Thailand as well as in Laos.

If she only has Lao citizenship she must have visas for Thailand.

[ubonjoe]

Nationality act. First line of section 4. ""Alien" means a person who does not have a Thai nationality;"

From section 14: A person of Thai nationality, who was born of an alien father or mother

and has acquired the nationality of his father or mother according to law on nationality of his

father or mother, or a person who acquires Thai nationality under Section 12 paragraph two

or Section 12/1 (2) and (3) may, if he desires to retain his other nationality, make a

declaration of his intention to renounce his Thai nationality within one year after his attaining

the age of twenty years, according to such form and in the manner as prescribed in the

Ministerial Regulations.