Business Group Calls for 5-Year Professional Visas for Expats

[Don Mega]

Excuse me, where is all of the BRAIN power in Thailand? Then why have universities here. ASEAN hub Bangkok:cheesy:

They cured Ebola.

No need for outside people with smarts, Thailand has them already.

Edited March 3, 2016 by Don Mega

[William C F Pierce]

To understand what a professional is, the original definition was 1.an accountant 2. a doctor 3. a doctor of divinity (a priest or bishop) 4. a lawyer 5. a teacher 6. or anyone working in a bank. As such they were the only ones who could get a mortgage or finance to buy a house 60 years ago. That was why and how they were recognised as professionals, because of their high paid secure jobs. Some of these are still accepted as professions ( accountant, doctor, lawyer, teacher). In recent times people speak of IT experts as professionals. The true meaning over time is very much blurred and changed. What the Thais call a professional is likely to mean anything they want it to mean. Like the English word "graft" which means to physically work hard. To a Thai hard work means corruption.

[Autonuaq]

Makes sense, encouraging more under 50s and digital nomads to base themselves in Thailand would be a positive for the economy.

a nomad never stay long enough to have the 5 years need.

noman wanders around.

digital the come as the wind blows and move as water too.

not a group that is geographically bound.

to be able to have a good an decent digital service one need sa free unlimited access to the internet

Thai firewall provided too much problems to have decent attractive service.

that is why many left.

Look example for example Curacao who has one of the exchange knots.

good climate, not nasty things nearby all important industries not firewall

if Thailand can offer that then it become interesting till some one else offers a better one.

nomad and digital not bound....

to make for industry attractive and bind you need the infrastructure to support as well the ability to lock and bind.

a stable futured and nice rules and regulations supported by the needed infrastructure.

Edited March 3, 2016 by Autonuaq

[silent]

Incidentally, the word professional gets tossed around a lot. A true professional is someone with a terminal degree. Without citing the degrees - doctors, lawyers, certified cpa's, scientists, engineers with adv degrees, teachers, etc.

People building websites and managing social media, spammers, content scribblers are not professionals.

If they are good at what they do and earn a living doing it, they are professionals.

Unfortunately, this is the common wisdom as and it is 100% wrong. Let me guess, you don't have a college degree but think of yourself as a professional?

Tradesmen, technicians, anyone in real estate, 98% of people in insurance, 50% of people in finance, general accountants, office staff, hair salon girls, it gurus and global nomads are not professionals.

Let me guess. Another legend in their own mind that measures intelligence in degrees and uses inches with a ruler to measure how much of a dick they can be.

[scorecard]

Broad open question: Why under 50s?

Because I'm under 50.

I have no issue with older guys but the ones I've met in Bangkok typically don't want to go to the type of bars and clubs I like to go, which makes adding them as a close friend a bit pointless.

I meet and chat to older blokes all the time when I'm in certain places, but I don't form full on friendships with them where I'd call them and say let's go out for cocktails in Thonglor or let's check out Maggie Choo's tonight, because they just don't fit into that scene or lifestyle.

The reason I usually hear when I suggest those places is either "there's no bar girls.... why would you want to go there" or "I'm not going to that stuck up place, it's full of snobs"

Well duh!! That is why I am going to those places.

Who are you praying for every night for the mercy not to be older when you wake up? Or should I guess the answer from your member name?

Carefully read what I wrote. It is not an age thing, it's a class thing.

The typical retired British bloke living in Bangkok is 'dyed in the wool' working class.

I'm 48, I know I'm going to get older.

But I look, feel and act like someone in their late 30's. I'm public school educated, I've been an expat brat all my life (and proud of it!) and although I don't have a problem with anyone regardless of where they are from, if you read my post I said that when I suggest places to go out that I like, the average older retired Brit turns up their nose because the places don't feature bar girls for them to talk to and/or they think the people there are stuck up snobs.

It seems to be a thing with older working class blokes, they don't want to mix with anyone they think is stuck up.

Younger working class people don't care, they are happy to mix with people from any level of society.

Probably because the whole notion of "its good to be working class" that the older w many blanket asssgeneration still believe is slowly dying out.

Wow, how many blanket assumptions in that post?

[timendres]

This is a good initiative. I hope it will pass along with other annoyances as independent IT workers having to employ 4 Thais to get a work permit. etc. If rules are fair and simple enough.

I have had an IT company in Thailand for years. Small company, but it paid the bills. I didn't have to form a company, but I wanted to do the right thing and pay may taxes here. That's one way to contribute to the country which have provided me a place to live. Nothing wrong with that.

One of the reasons I'm leaving the country is the yearly visa. To renew the visa is one of the most humiliating days in my life, sometime two days as there is always some small thing which have changed, and have to be corrected.

On psychological side, renewing the visa each year, means instability. I had always 97% confidence that I'll get the new visa and work permit, each year, without overly too much trouble.. but the rest 3% is what makes me along with my other friends quite agitated for an month prior to the visa renewal. And we are the guys who try to do everything by the book, pay our taxes and eventually give something extra to this country.

Personally, I gave up believing in Thailand for some years ago. Since then I have just been hangin around. Currently planning a new life elsewhere, while trying to arrange things in the way that I'm free to go without regrets.

I might come back, but it depends how Thailand does in the future. Most likely I also will not get back, until I hit the magical age of 50, when I can say to be retired.

When it comes to the young nomads. What's wrong of having them around? They are mostly energetic folks, who share their wonderful experiences about Thailand to the rest of the world. TAT should protect them, as they are doing a great job of advertising Thailand to their home countries.

While nomads live here, they spend their money here. That is a direct injection of money to the Thai economy, coming from outside to inside of Thailand. Thailand should brace these people and let them live. It's not like Thailand would give them huge social security benefits or unemployment money, like we sometimes do in the west.

My situation is identical to yours, although I have not yet given up on Thailand.

Part of the reason I set up shop here is the F.U. factor of paying my taxes to the Thai government as opposed to the US government, whose tax and spend policies (along with other policies) simply enrage me lately. Not that the Thai government is all that much better, but at least their taxes are lower.

For me, the biggest improvements that could be made here are:

1) Eliminate the 90 day report for those holding a work permit. We are not tourists roving about. We are hunkered down in one location working and living.

2) Provide 2 year visa and work permit periods. This reduces a yearly headache and expense, while still keeping the government relatively up-to-date.

3) Change the requirement of 4 Thai employees per work permit to be salary based. There is a big difference between employing four Thais at minimum wage, and employing four Thais with salaries above 40,000THB per month! If the requirement were 50,000THB payroll per work permit, it would make life much easier, and I believe would make more sense. Many companies use ghost employees "paid" minimum wage, which simply defeats the purpose of the requirement.

Edited March 3, 2016 by timendres

[wobalt]

I am a (freelance) inspector accredited by the European Commission, if Thai manufacturers want to export products which falls under the Directive I work for, they need a certificate which I happen to deliver. I have worked in several countries before which were quite happy to host me and offer me permanent residence as it boosted the export economy for millions of Euro. Well guess what Thailand said? A big No no you cannot work here and help us export our products. I don't really care as I make enough money with all the neighbouring countries which are very happy to have an inspector in the vicinity, but please Thailand don't wine that your export is reaching an all time low.

Same for me. Currently make my money outside THAILAND. Got a residence permit for China immediately

[lkv]

3) Change the requirement of 4 Thai employees per work permit to be salary based. There is a big difference between employing four Thais at minimum wage, and employing four Thais with salaries above 40,000THB per month! If the requirement were 50,000THB payroll per work permit, it would make life much easier, and I believe would make more sense. Many companies use ghost employees "paid" minimum wage, which simply defeats the purpose of the requirement.

I will disagree a little bit here.

Firstly, a company's main purpose is not to necessarily have social or moral responsability, but to be profitable.

If the money that you pay in taxes would go to help poor children get a better education, maybe I would somehow understand. But they don't. They get shifted to...I don't know...purchasing servers for the Gvt that cost 200K in reality but are invoiced 2M.

Secondly, putting that aside, the reality is a company has to protect its shareholder's interests. If anyone believes that a company that wants to minimize cost will look at 50K per Thai employee or willing to pay tax on anything like that and go like: ooo that's cheap, they live in a fantasy world. That's Hong Kong young graduate's salary, better education, better business sense, no more Thai-farang bull×××× etc.

And for those that consider HK expensive, Malaysia is right next to Thailand. And Chinese there work very hard for the money I'm telling you.

I'm just trying to keep it real.

Edited March 3, 2016 by lkv

[gandalf12]

The vast majority of TVF members need not apply, as they can't even spell.

I fall into this category of highly specialized skills. I have a Thai company BEGGING me to work with them for 75,000 baht a month.

I'd rather be beat in the ass with a mad rattlesnake than take that offer.

Could you please post your full post as I only saw Baht 75,000 which I wouldnt call an offer. That was a signing fee, right?

[KamalaRider]

I wonder what would fall under highly skilled. Would a managing director be in highly skilled category?

Then visa is only half of the issue, how about wort permits for 5 years as well.

Well... work permit can be extended every year and this would make even sense since they will keep track if people don't change companies, stop working etc.

Does it really matter if they've changed jobs, unless they change their work description?

People in IT don't work solely in one precise spot, they could also be outsourced, how to handle that?

The work permit rules are too narrow and belongs to old ways of thinking and believing (assuming).

In the rest of the world, IT people work on their way to work when commuting, in hotels, at coffee shops between meetings, at customer locations.

Their job follows where their brain goes, not their office chairs.

Computers are merely tools, like a wrench or a hammer, to assume they are always in the same spot working is the Thai assumption of office workers tied to an office chair doing whatever administrative job they're doing.

I can do my job wherever I'm at, any time of the day, I'm VERY seldom in my office in the chair I have designated to work, according to my WP.

My lawyer once told me it's a gray area because it's not listed in the foreign labor departments rules I that I'm allowed to work anywhere than from my reported office.

But I'm allowed to go and meet customers, but I should invite them to my office to do business.

These completely and utterly STUPID rules, if complied to or enforced, would make IT people avoid and not consider Thailand as a viable working place.

I myself, break these rules and regulations on a daily basis, if I didn't I simply could not work here in Thailand.

Edited March 3, 2016 by KamalaRider

[cyberfarang]

This is beginning to appear like the Malaysian My Second Home scheme, where visas are issued on certain conditions sponsored by big businesses and real estate companies.

Looks good but this could be the shape of things to come, whereas the regular annual visa extensions are discontinued and then long termers in Thailand are placed in the hand of big business, where the words professional and talented loosely translated means, rich.

[pipeflaw]

Note that the article is talking about "highly skilled professionals". Although the word is used far too frequently and loosely, in this context (being used as a noun rather than an adjective) it refers to a person holding a "professional" degree and qualified in a "profession". While I have the greatest respect for plumbers, electricians, and IT technicians, they are not "professionals". Included within the definition of professionals would be doctors, attorneys, engineers, architects, and those awarded a PhD. However, this proposal will never see the light of day for a number of reasons, some of which would bring undue attention to me and will be left to the reader to ponder.

[seancbk]

Because I'm under 50.

I have no issue with older guys but the ones I've met in Bangkok typically don't want to go to the type of bars and clubs I like to go, which makes adding them as a close friend a bit pointless.

I meet and chat to older blokes all the time when I'm in certain places, but I don't form full on friendships with them where I'd call them and say let's go out for cocktails in Thonglor or let's check out Maggie Choo's tonight, because they just don't fit into that scene or lifestyle.

The reason I usually hear when I suggest those places is either "there's no bar girls.... why would you want to go there" or "I'm not going to that stuck up place, it's full of snobs"

Well duh!! That is why I am going to those places.

You like hanging with snobs, do you?

I don't mind who I hang with if they are pleasant, polite and open minded.

What I don't like are people who judge me based on my accent, experiences, family background and the things I enjoy doing.

People you call snobs wouldn't walk into a bar and say "I'm not drinking here, it's full of oiks"

I don't think someone is a snob just because they were fortunate to be born with a bit more privilege.

The fact is yes, I prefer the company of people with a bit more knowledge of the world, people who've done the same sort of things I've done and can share stories about those experiences. People who don't think the football scores are a highlight of the week or a valid topic of conversation all night. People who believe that there are opportunities to make lots of money, rather than moaning the "bloody rich people" and who start businesses, hire people and get rich, or fail and try again.

[seancbk]

Carefully read what I wrote. It is not an age thing, it's a class thing.

The typical retired British bloke living in Bangkok is 'dyed in the wool' working class. I've met some who aren't but I've met far more who are.

I'm 48, I know I'm going to get older.

But I look, feel and act like someone in their late 30's. I'm public school educated, I've been an expat brat all my life (and proud of it!) and although I don't have a problem with anyone regardless of where they are from, if you read my post I said that when I suggest places to go out that I like, the average older retired Brit turns up their nose because the places don't feature bar girls for them to talk to and/or they think the people there are stuck up snobs.

It seems to be a thing with some of the older working class blokes I've met, but not all, that they don't want to mix with anyone they think is stuck up.

It seems to depend perhaps on what they did in their working life, as to how they react. If they never held a management position for example, they are seemingly more likely to distrust anyone they think is 'stuck up' and being stuck up could just means you went to public school.

Younger working class people don't care, they are happy to mix with people from any level of society.

Probably because the whole notion of "its good to be working class" that the older generation still believe, is slowly dying out.

Wow, how many blanket assumptions in that post?

Depending whether you can understand what I was trying to convey. I try not to make blanket statements and tried to word what I wrote so people could tell I wasn't talk about everyone. Obviously I was too subtle for you.

I've edited the text above so it is a bit more obvious.

[b4n9]

 

Incidentally, the word professional gets tossed around a lot. A true professional is someone with a terminal degree. Without citing the degrees - doctors, lawyers, certified cpa's, scientists, engineers with adv degrees, teachers, etc.

People building websites and managing social media, spammers, content scribblers are not professionals.

 

Oh! really? How do YOU call people in such activities? I hope you are not refering to programmers, DBAs, web designers, editors, reporters, web masters, hackers, etc..

Be mindful and careful with your words, specially in public places. Looks like you have no clue to support what you are saying.

[seancbk]

Who are you praying to every night for the mercy not to be older when you wake up? Or should I guess the answer from your member name? Or maybe from the photo- a bold guy under 50 wearing shades in a bar?

One day I will be older, I just hope I don't start acting like a miserable, grumpy old man.

In that photo I had bleach blonde hair, for some reason it came out looking like I'm bald. Losing my hair from the front yes, but definitely not bald yet.

I would never normally wear shades indoors but a friend made me put them on for the photo, it was a bit of a laugh at the time and just happens to be the only semi recent picture I have that I thought was suitable for a profile pic.

I love my life, I'm lucky to be able to do things I want and I'm not jealous of anyone even if they have more than me.

How about we get back to the discussion of a 5 year visa. I'm in the process of starting a new company here in Bangkok; and if I could get a 5 year business visa and work permit it would be awesome, so I'll be watching this news carefully.

[b4n9]

 

Incidentally, the word professional gets tossed around a lot. A true professional is someone with a terminal degree. Without citing the degrees - doctors, lawyers, certified cpa's, scientists, engineers with adv degrees, teachers, etc.

People building websites and managing social media, spammers, content scribblers are not professionals.

 

Oh! really? How do YOU call people in such activities? I hope you are not refering to programmers, DBAs, web designers, editors, reporters, web masters, hackers, etc..

Be mindful and careful with your words, specially in public places. Looks like you have no clue to support what you are saying.

[khunpa]

I can not stop laughing, when I read this article.

4 years ago, I established an IT-company in Thailand and had big plans of growing it fast, since we had many customers. However, it only took just over a year to see the following:

- Thai Authorities have no interest in Farangs doing succesful business in Thailand. We only experienced harassment and resentment, although we were actually contributing with quite large profit tax payments etc. to the government.

- The corruption level is at a point where it is a joke and everything is about getting easy money out of the Farang doing business here. As soon as they see a farang making money, then will do anything to get their hands on some easy money.

- Complicated administration and even lack of understanding of Thai Law amongst the people who should be managing it.

- Lack of skilled local staff... including accountants, lawyers and government officials whos skill levels are a complete joke.

RESULT: Thai-company closed and moved to another SEA-country where our business and Farangs was more than welcome. Today, we have over 50 fulltime staff and are continuing our growth.

Even if I was paid to return the business to Thailand, I would never do it. It would for sure require a lot more change, than a simple business visa. Have established IT-companies in many countries during the past 23 years. The only country I would never do a business in again is Thailand. Well, maybe if it was a Noddle Shop, I would consider it, since this is the only kind of business that people understand here.

I know many foreigners will good ideas, money and the interest to maybe setup something in Thailand. Only thing I advise them, is to stay away until Thailands overall economy is so bad, that they wake up and realise the benefit of foreign investment, skills and business. And I doubt that will not happen until the economy is driven completely into the ground and they realise that foreigners doing investments must be treated nicely or they will simply seek elsewhere. My guess is 5-10 years more of financial downturn before they finally wake up.

Edited March 3, 2016 by khunpa

[RBOP]

The vast majority of TVF members need not apply, as they can't even spell.

I fall into this category of highly specialized skills. I have a Thai company BEGGING me to work with them for 75,000 baht a month.

I'd rather be beat in the ass with a mad rattlesnake than take that offer.

I totally hear you on this. I have a Thai Company offering me 110,000 Baht/month and want me to expand their business etc. With 34 years experience, Uni and College degrees I declined.

[doode]

The international norms are citizenship or residency after around 5 years of living and paying tax in a country through your profession.

Most foreign professionals pay a lot of tax each month and get absolutely nothing back from the Thai government, even local rates at national parks, less ridiculous duplication of visa paperwork and procedures, owning half the value of the property of a spouse and abolishing re-entry permits would be a start.

A fairer system would be permanent residency after 5 years of paying tax and the right to buy a property or land up to a sensible limit and citizenship for those that can pass strict but fair criteria. The fact that there are professionals that have been here 20 years married with a family and speaking fluent Thai and have not been offered citizenship is disgraceful. If we are good enough to pay tax to the government and contribute to the economy and development of Thailand its only fair to offer some basic rights

And this is absolutely correct.

Nothing else would be the point.

Working and paying tax for 20 and than you must have 800k on your account for a visa. That's disgraceful.

[DrTuner]

The fact that there are professionals that have been here 20 years married with a family and speaking fluent Thai and have not been offered citizenship is disgraceful.

That's not completely fair, citizenship is available after three years. There's a number of hoops to jump and a long, tedious process, but it does exist. TVF has threads on it.

I myself have given up on the idea, though. Ain't Thai, don't want to be one, they want me as a temp, alrighty then. Just don't expect me to contribute to the nation in any way.

[jspill]

The fact that there are professionals that have been here 20 years married with a family and speaking fluent Thai and have not been offered citizenship is disgraceful.

That's not completely fair, citizenship is available after three years. There's a number of hoops to jump and a long, tedious process, but it does exist. TVF has threads on it.

I myself have given up on the idea, though. Ain't Thai, don't want to be one, they want me as a temp, alrighty then. Just don't expect me to contribute to the nation in any way.

It's available, but only to a quota of 100 people per nationality, per year, comes with a price tag of a little under 200,000 Baht and can take ~16 months for the paperwork to be approved once submitted.

In western countries no quota, it's essentially automatic. Fees are a fraction of that, and no long wait.

[jspill]

As to my bizarre attitude as mentioned above, maybe that is tempered by working 10 years in PRChina starting in the late 1980's with Communist Party officials who would not take it kindly if they ever thought your attitude toward them was in any way flippant.

Seems a bit over the top to worry about Thailand changing the rules for a retirement extensions in some way, due to under 50s coming here on tourist visas and doing a bit of blogging, based on the actions of Communist China in the 80s.

[cyberfarang]

I can not stop laughing, when I read this article.

4 years ago, I established an IT-company in Thailand and had big plans of growing it fast, since we had many customers. However, it only took just over a year to see the following:

- Thai Authorities have no interest in Farangs doing succesful business in Thailand. We only experienced harassment and resentment, although we were actually contributing with quite large profit tax payments etc. to the government.

- The corruption level is at a point where it is a joke and everything is about getting easy money out of the Farang doing business here. As soon as they see a farang making money, then will do anything to get their hands on some easy money.

- Complicated administration and even lack of understanding of Thai Law amongst the people who should be managing it.

- Lack of skilled local staff... including accountants, lawyers and government officials whos skill levels are a complete joke.

RESULT: Thai-company closed and moved to another SEA-country where our business and Farangs was more than welcome. Today, we have over 50 fulltime staff and are continuing our growth.

Even if I was paid to return the business to Thailand, I would never do it. It would for sure require a lot more change, than a simple business visa. Have established IT-companies in many countries during the past 23 years. The only country I would never do a business in again is Thailand. Well, maybe if it was a Noddle Shop, I would consider it, since this is the only kind of business that people understand here.

I know many foreigners will good ideas, money and the interest to maybe setup something in Thailand. Only thing I advise them, is to stay away until Thailands overall economy is so bad, that they wake up and realise the benefit of foreign investment, skills and business. And I doubt that will not happen until the economy is driven completely into the ground and they realise that foreigners doing investments must be treated nicely or they will simply seek elsewhere. My guess is 5-10 years more of financial downturn before they finally wake up.

Good post.

I would not make business investments in Thailand or on anything I couldn`t own, not even one iota. Farlangs should never even think of investing anything in Thailand because they`ll never succeed. Sooner or later with the bureaucracy and corruption involved a progressive Farlang entrepreneur will not be able to compete with the prejudices, pressures and provisos involved. It`s has to treated like a gambling club where the odds are always with the house and can be out of the game without an instant with huge losses.

I can not see any incentives to attract American and European mediocre businesses and investors to the country.

[Whyamiandwhatamidoinghere]

I wonder what would fall under highly skilled. Would a managing director be in highly skilled category?

Then visa is only half of the issue, how about wort permits for 5 years as well.

That request will fall on deaf ears. They are not trying to make it easy for foreigners to stay. Just every two months they have more hoops to jump thru.

[JLCrab]

As to my bizarre attitude as mentioned above, maybe that is tempered by working 10 years in PRChina starting in the late 1980's with Communist Party officials who would not take it kindly if they ever thought your attitude toward them was in any way flippant.

Seems a bit over the top to worry about Thailand changing the rules for a retirement extensions in some way, due to under 50s coming here on tourist visas and doing a bit of blogging, based on the actions of Communist China in the 80s.

Thank you. You have your worries --- I have mine. I don't care about persons under 50 blogging -- I am concerned about non-Thai persons routinely making false declarations or statements on Thai official documents no matter in what manner or situation.

[JLCrab]

<snip>.

RESULT: Thai-company closed and moved to another SEA-country where our business and Farangs was more than welcome. Today, we have over 50 fulltime staff and are continuing our growth.

<snip2>

I have no idea as to Khun Khunpa's personal circumstances with his company. However this is a list of BOI software companies (beginning with the number-names and 'A' page) so maybe his experience is not necessarily the norm

http://www.boi.go.th/index.php?page=search_promoted&primary_select=C_NAME&primary_sort=asc&secondary_select=OFF_PRO&secondary_sort=asc&language_search=English&province=all&keyword=software

Edited March 3, 2016 by JLCrab

[DrTuner]

<snip>.

RESULT: Thai-company closed and moved to another SEA-country where our business and Farangs was more than welcome. Today, we have over 50 fulltime staff and are continuing our growth.

<snip2>

I have no idea as to Khun Khunpa's personal circumstances with his company. However this is a list of BOI software companies (beginning with the number-names and 'A' page) so maybe his experience is not necessarily the norm

http://www.boi.go.th/index.php?page=search_promoted&primary_select=C_NAME&primary_sort=asc&secondary_select=OFF_PRO&secondary_sort=asc&language_search=English&province=all&keyword=software

Can't help but see 90% of them being in Bangkok. Another negative for Thailand, everything concentrated in a small and relatively expensive area, basically sucking available workforce away from more affordable and livable areas.

[simon43]

Tradesmen, technicians, anyone in real estate, 98% of people in insurance, 50% of people in finance, general accountants, office staff, hair salon girls, it gurus and global nomads are not professionals.

In many countries, the word 'professional' is a protected term when in the context of employment, in that it can only be applied to those persons who possess a degree (or higher degree) in specific sectors (medicine, engineering), and/or a chartered member of the relevant professional body.

Of course, a digital nomad without any qualifications can be professional in their work ethic, quality of work etc etc. But that does not make them a 'professional'.

[simon43]

Could you please post your full post as I only saw Baht 75,000 which I wouldnt call an offer. That was a signing fee, right?

Why do so many people judge the attractiveness of a job by the number of zeros in the monthly salary? Is money your only motivation? If so, you have a lot to learn about life.