The Solar Paperwork Nightmare

[GinBoy2]

I thought I'd start a new thread to update everyone on the paperwork after my solar installation.

Firstly, sorry i haven't really been following the previous thread, but honestly as to the day to day operation it's seamless. For those that have asked about power generation, honestly I haven't kept track for months, but on a practical basis it's done what I expected and halved my monthly bills.

So to the paperwork......

Well after several months I did get all the paperwork from the installers as previously stated. This I was told I needed to present, in person to the regional office in Korat.

Korat is a 2.5 hour drive for me, but I arrived and sure enough, I must be in the right place, lots of solar panels and displays extolling the Thai 'solar city' indeed the 'hub' of solar Asia, i kid you not.

So we go into the office. The Guy...yes The Guy, there's only one, is in a meeting! So we wait, after an hour or so 'the guy' appears, and we present all the documentation. 5 minutes of hmmm, yess, Ok, and we;re done. Great I think....stupid me!

So it turns out that 'the guy' needs two weeks to review the paperwork. After two weeks we get a phone call, yes all is done..."you need to present all this to another office in Korat"...what I ask you can't simply put this in an intra office PEA document??? Of course not, you need to come to the office, take the paperwork and take it yourself the 10 minute drive to the other office.

Thankfully, my wife has a friend in Korat who agreed to do the legwork, saving us the 2.5 each way drive, to transport the documents between the two offices 10 minutes apart.

So, after we get the various copies of ID cards, house book, that lets the friend do the transfer, she takes the documents from 'The Guy'. to the 'Other Guy'.

But wait, 'The Other Guy' now decides we need another piece of paper from the local planning office.

The local planning office are sent into apoplexy about this, seem obsessed by the weight of the panels...God knows why, people build houses here which are totally structurally unsafe, yet they were obsessed by solar panels which weigh a few grams.

Eventually, the paperwork was resolved in the local office...the paper went to 'The Guy #2'...friend transported the papers the 'The Guy #1' and I drove the 2.5 hours to Korat to get the final approval.

So, was it worth it?

If I was working and didn't have the time, I would have given up. Its a pain, difficult and says a lot about the state of this country and why it's destined to remain a 3rd world country

[IMHO]

Thanks for the follow up - and yes, the red tape is sometimes quite long.

The big question is: is anything happening to your meter?

[GinBoy2]

Thanks for the follow up - and yes, the red tape is sometimes quite long.

The big question is: is anything happening to your meter?

I should say nothing, for fear of tempting fate....make of that what you will!

On a side note, I forgot to mention that in addition to my legwork, there required multiple back and forth phone conversations between PEA & the installer. This is also informative for anyone who may be thinking of performing a DIY install.

I could have done the work myself, except I'm lazy, but certainly couldn't have navigated the follow up stuff which the installer dealt with

Edited March 12, 2016 by GinBoy2

[Pacificperson]

It sometimes seems as if the paperwork and the inspections for grid-tie solar are designed to keep the DIY crowd out of the solar business and to increase the profits of the installation companies.

[Crossy]

Indeed, it's the paperwork which is causing me to shy away from DIY, at least for an initial system.

Maybe install a 1.4kW grid-tie "officially" then after a suitable "cooling-off" period add some more panels and a smarter inverter. The lack of hybrid inverters on the MEA/ PEA approvals list is also frustrating.

I'm not interested in the solar-roof initiative so simple net-metering via the normal meter spinning backwards will do me fine.

[GinBoy2]

Indeed, it's the paperwork which is causing me to shy away from DIY, at least for an initial system.

Maybe install a 1.4kW grid-tie "officially" then after a suitable "cooling-off" period add some more panels and a smarter inverter. The lack of hybrid inverters on the MEA/ PEA approvals list is also frustrating.

I'm not interested in the solar-roof initiative so simple net-metering via the normal meter spinning backwards will do me fine.

That would be my take too, since once you have approval for an installation there's no way that anyone would ever come around to audit if the system had been altered in any way.

[carlyai]

Indeed, it's the paperwork which is causing me to shy away from DIY, at least for an initial system.

Maybe install a 1.4kW grid-tie "officially" then after a suitable "cooling-off" period add some more panels and a smarter inverter. The lack of hybrid inverters on the MEA/ PEA approvals list is also frustrating.

I'm not interested in the solar-roof initiative so simple net-metering via the normal meter spinning backwards will do me fine.

Can you point me to a thread or somewhere about 'net- metering' cause a meter spinning backwards appeals to me and probably my wallet. ☺

[GinBoy2]

Indeed, it's the paperwork which is causing me to shy away from DIY, at least for an initial system.

Maybe install a 1.4kW grid-tie "officially" then after a suitable "cooling-off" period add some more panels and a smarter inverter. The lack of hybrid inverters on the MEA/ PEA approvals list is also frustrating.

I'm not interested in the solar-roof initiative so simple net-metering via the normal meter spinning backwards will do me fine.

Can you point me to a thread or somewhere about 'net- metering' cause a meter spinning backwards appeals to me and probably my wallet. ☺

My install is a 'simple' net metering system, I can only imagine what 'flaming rings of fire' you jump through for the solar roof program.

This is the original thread from my install:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/837457-solar-installation/

[Gary A]

So you have the paperwork completed? Are you using yourself what the panels are producing? I guess that you are not selling any power to the electric company?

If you go with a grid tie system and the meter reader notices the meter running backwards, the fireworks will begin. You will have all sorts of electric company people out there looking at your meter. The government talks up green power but in reality the right hand has no idea what the left hand is doing. It's much easier to set up an off grid system to eliminate government problems. Unfortunately batteries are expensive.

[Crossy]

Paperwork in place with PEA, net metering (via the regular meter) - SHOULD be no problem. But of course TiT.

What happens if you go on holiday and become a net exporter of power? Nobody knows

[uthaithanirules]

It sometimes seems as if the paperwork and the inspections for grid-tie solar are designed to keep the DIY crowd out of the solar business and to increase the profits of the installation companies.

I havent tried the solar thing.

Might never, mainly because:

A. Probably would be too hard to convince the wife and MIL that the, to them, massive initial outlay, would save them money in the long run

B. What you just mentioned, bureaucracy that is basically designed and intentionally obfuscated so a falang especially hands over money to middle men

The question I want to ask though is, too everyone else, not just you

Why bother with all the paperwork? Especially if the north facing roof cant be seen from a road, or, for that matter, the ground

If any official does come knocking, just slip him a couple hundred baht, it is Thailand after all

Edited March 24, 2016 by uthaithanirules

[Crossy]

The issue with "not telling anyone" would be if, as Gary A says, the meter man notices your meter running backwards (as it will if you are exporting at the time), with no solar paperwork in place you are potentially in a world of hurt.

There are devices on the market that will make a conventional meter slow down or reverse, these are of course illegal.

If you have the paperwork you at least have something legal to wave at the official.

[uthaithanirules]

The issue with "not telling anyone" would be if, as Gary A says, the meter man notices your meter running backwards (as it will if you are exporting at the time), with no solar paperwork in place you are potentially in a world of hurt.

There are devices on the market that will make a conventional meter slow down or reverse, these are of course illegal.

If you have the paperwork you at least have something legal to wave at the official.

I never exported electricity. I store over production in my own batteries. When I use my own production I simple disconnect our house from the grid. Our meter man noticed our meter was not running while we clearly used electricity. That was enough for EPA to request a check from our electrical system.

We did nothing wrong, but after a while refusing them to enter they told us we should be disconnected. After they checked they found nothing illegal was done.

Ok thanks.

But in either case, Why not just run the air conditioners off the solar set up. You will always need mains for backup anyway. And I assume in a Thai house, most of the juice goes to the air conditioners

All the paperwork sounds like a pain in the ....

[Gary A]

Right now, the problem with air conditioners is that you need 230 volts. It becomes expensive to convert the power from DC solar panels to 230 volts AC. Of course it can be done but not economically. With the inverter air cons, you convert your battery voltage to 230 volts and the inverter air con converts it back to DC voltage. Hopefully in the near future and maybe even now you will be able to buy home use DC air cons that some clever electronics engineer has designed to allow the air con to run directly off the solar panels. It all depends on the demand whether this type of air con goes into mass production. There are already submersible water pumps in production that do this. No batteries. When you have bright sunlight, they pump a lot of water. When it is overcast, they pump less water and obviously when the sun goes down there is no water. An air con is not this simple.

[Crossy]

Let's not get too far off topic, which is the Solar Paperwork Nightmare.

There are a number of other threads discussing DC pumps, batteryless off-grid etc.

[Gary A]

It would be great if the government would help us by making it easy to get permits or whatever license they think we need. They seem to put up roadblocks rather than making it simple. It's a shame.

[craighj]

I've been here 10 years and I should have known better as well as done more homework.

We install a 5KW system on our house in Mukdahan in December solar company who are based in Phuket. They said it was all OK and that the local electricity authority are fine with solar systems as long as you do not allow your power meter to run into the negative range (the solar system feeds power back into the meter and the meter turns backwards when the system is generating).

The solar system is working well and we are most certainly saving money each month on our electricity bill. We have not allowed it to go negative but it has been very low.

The local power authority came to our house today and demanded that we switch off the system saying they had not given approval to fit it? They want to meet my wife as soon as she can go up country and they have also said they need to inspect the installation. Possibly ask for electricity fees for the last few months maybe a fine etc.

Obviously there is some need for authorisation by the local electricity people, which I was not made aware of by my solar installation company.

Am I in deep S@#& or does it mean I need to sort out the authorisation, pay a fine etc?

Yes, as I said. I should have know better, I trusted the solar company for the advise.

Craighj

[Crossy]

I've been here 10 years and I should have known better as well as done more homework.

We install a 5KW system on our house in Mukdahan in December ...

Did you use a PEA approved inverter?

If so, and the installation meets muster then I would expect a smacked botty and maybe a fine.

Do please let us know what happens. Another member reported a similar issue (a 'friend') who supposedly got all the paperwork but was not approved for unknown reasons. The result was he had to go fully off-grid (lots of batteries) and PEA fitted a non-reversing meter.

[Gary A]

If you don't have a good grid tie inverter you may be putting linemen in danger if they are working on the lines. All grid tie inverters should have what they call island protection. What that does is to kill the inverter whenever the main power goes off.

[Crossy]

How I do it, when I use my own generated electricity, I disconnect our house from the grid (I think Crossy is doing the same when he uses his gen set.)

The EPA was curious why our bill dropped, but further nothing happened. Maybe I am lucky, maybe I made the right choice?

If you're not exporting, just making your own power, then PEA / MEA can't do much. No non-approved kit is connected to their network (your transfer switch takes care of that).

Yes, it's exactly the same as using a genset.

[Crossy]

If you don't have a good grid tie inverter you may be putting linemen in danger if they are working on the lines. All grid tie inverters should have what they call island protection. What that does is to kill the inverter whenever the main power goes off.

Indeed. But I've not come across a domestic class grid-tie inverter that does not have island protection.

[craighj]

Hi Crossy

Good question about the inverter, I was told that it complies and the company I used for the system have many other installations, so I made the mistake of thinking I was well covered. I've contacted them and asked about the PEA authorization etc. I'm still waiting on a reply.

I hope you're right. A slap, well deserved, a fine or payment then onwards and upwards hopefully. Another useful lesson learnt.

Craighj

[GinBoy2]

Paperwork in place with PEA, net metering (via the regular meter) - SHOULD be no problem. But of course TiT.

What happens if you go on holiday and become a net exporter of power? Nobody knows

Good question, and the correct answer is 'who knows'.

I think you and I have lived here long enough to know that you never ask questions which may prove problematic, since that may provoke a response. If nobody asks, don't tell a thing

[NoshowJones]

The issue with "not telling anyone" would be if, as Gary A says, the meter man notices your meter running backwards (as it will if you are exporting at the time), with no solar paperwork in place you are potentially in a world of hurt.

There are devices on the market that will make a conventional meter slow down or reverse, these are of course illegal.

If you have the paperwork you at least have something legal to wave at the official.

I never exported electricity. I store over production in my own batteries. When I use my own production I simple disconnect our house from the grid. Our meter man noticed our meter was not running while we clearly used electricity. That was enough for EPA to request a check from our electrical system.

We did nothing wrong, but after a while refusing them to enter they told us we should be disconnected. After they checked they found nothing illegal was done.

Ok thanks.

But in either case, Why not just run the air conditioners off the solar set up. You will always need mains for backup anyway. And I assume in a Thai house, most of the juice goes to the air conditioners

All the paperwork sounds like a pain in the ....

Why is it that in this computerised age, we need lots of paperwork all the time? Of course this does not just apply to Thailand.

Is it because so many people are not educated enough to even learn how to work computers? I emphasise again, this does not just apply to Thailand.

[NoshowJones]

It would be great if the government would help us by making it easy to get permits or whatever license they think we need. They seem to put up roadblocks rather than making it simple. It's a shame.

Making anything simpler in Thailand????????

[ggt]

God made Thais to test our resolve and strengthen our patience...

[Crossy]

The latest PEA approved inverter list is here https://www.pea.co.th/vspp/Documents/Rooftop/PEA%20Inverter%20List/PEA%20Inverter%20List_updated%202016-03-18.pdf

Their Solar Rooftop page is here (in Thai of course) https://www.pea.co.th/vspp/Pages/Solar%20Rooftop.aspx

[Colabamumbai]

Would a windmill have been easier?

[Crossy]

Would a windmill have been easier?

If it had a grid-tie inverter no, it would have been harder as neither MEA nor PEA have any approved wind-turbine inverters on their lists.

[craighj]

The latest PEA approved inverter list is here https://www.pea.co.th/vspp/Documents/Rooftop/PEA%20Inverter%20List/PEA%20Inverter%20List_updated%202016-03-18.pdf

Their Solar Rooftop page is here (in Thai of course) https://www.pea.co.th/vspp/Pages/Solar%20Rooftop.aspx

Thanks Crossy, it's a PEA approved inverter, which both the list you sent and installer has confirmed.

Now I just need to jump all the hoops required to get it authorised.

Craighj