Why are flights going West so much more expensive?

[TheCruncher]

It probably is for the same reason as why shipping a container from Europe to Asia is cheaper as the other way around.

The reason is that the container, and in this case the plane, has to get back to it's origin and preferable not empty.

[SOTIRIOS]

....collusion.....

[F4UCorsair]

^^

According to the fine print only fuel surcharges are included in the taxes and charges.

Which should be Zero at the moment.

SHOULD be zero, but an airline can find some creative eays to rip off the punters.

[aronp1]

Supply and demand.

[smotherb]

Is it apparent? Brits are not interested in leaving the wonderful UK, especially to come to Thailand. So, the ticket prices must be cheaper to encourage travel. Then, to get back to that wonderful place, the UK; the airlines increase the prices.

[DrDave]

^^

According to the fine print only fuel surcharges are included in the taxes and charges.

Which should be Zero at the moment.

SHOULD be zero, but an airline can find some creative eays to rip off the punters.

Not necessarily, it depends upon the fuel hedges that the airline had previously put in place.

They may have locked in a higher fuel price not anticipating the drop in oil prices to be as steep and rapid as they turned out to be. I believe that an airline's fuel costs are very much dependent upon the hedges they've put in place and somewhat less dependent upon "today's" fuel price.

[laislica]

Enter the pilot, LOL. It could be supply and demand BUT it could be due to the jet stream. Planes simply have to buck that wind. For instance it might take as much as 2 hours longer on a long flight going East to West than in the other direction. We measure time in ground speed but the plane is limited to its airspeed. If it's going 500 mph into a 500 mph headwind its ground speed will be zero. It's going nowhere. OTOH in the other direction it would have a tailwind and would be going 500 mph airspeed and 1,000 mph, ground speed. Winds exaggerated for example, of course.

There is also the rotation of the earth. If you are on a 24 hour flight the earth will rotate once. Depending on whether the plane is flying with or against the earth's rotation, its ground speed will be faster or slower.

I've never been involved in assessing ticket prices but I do know that the cost of operating a plane is always expressed as X $ per hour.

I really have no idea if any of the above is figured into prices. I just know the phenomena exist.

Fun to think about, anyway.

Cheers.

The question was:

"Return from CNX to BKK to the UK (LHR) in May/June cheapest return 500gbp (without 10hs of stopovers in China)

But a return from the UK (LHR) to BKK to CNX is only 360gbp."

See, both return flights so they both have to deal with the same jet streams, just that the origins are at opposite ends of the journey. LOL

[DrDave]

It probably is for the same reason as why shipping a container from Europe to Asia is cheaper as the other way around.

The reason is that the container, and in this case the plane, has to get back to it's origin and preferable not empty.

Not really. A container does not operate on a strict schedule, as an airplane does. Containers (which are fairly cheap) can sit at customer sites or container yards for relatively long periods of time before being utilized again. No so for a $300M jumbo jet.

For any given flight, passengers onboard may have booked their trip originating from either end. There's really no reason to think that the BKK->LHR leg would be less travelled than the LHR->BKK leg assuming that most passengers book round-trips. My guess is that many more bookings are generated for trips originating at LHR as compared to BKK, and thus the airline charges a premium for the "less-popular" origination, even though the flights and equipment are exactly the same.

[laislica]

As discussed and agreed countless times previously on TVF, the price difference results from supply and demand factors. Greater demand and greater competition out of London for say LHR/BKK than out of BKK for BKK/LHR.

That may account for part of it, but not all.

After all, regardless of where you buy your ticket and start your journey the return flight is made up of exactly the same two legs, just in a different order. So this makes no difference to loading and the airline.

I suspect that part of the reason for higher prices here is that tickets here are paid for in THB which is a fairly useless currency for any non-Thai airline to hold. I also suspect that government sales taxes may play some part in it (there is no VAT on air tickets sold in the EU).

We have return tickets MAD - BKK cost about €1,600 for two tickets, 3 legs/2airlines per journey.

Dep Mad Dec 7 2015, return April 27 2016. Bought the tickets 5 months before.

Then two weeks later, while in Spain, booked another flight for my step son to return with us for a 2 week holiday.

I.E. almost a year in advance!

€1,100 for his ticket. I asked the travel agent why so much more expensive.

She said because of currency charges etc. and origin BKK!

The TA said she could hold the price for a couple of days so he could pay in Thailand which might save about €100 but there's many a slip twixt cup and lip so

I also bit the bullet and paid up!

EDIT

Start point Almeria-Mad-Dubai-BKK

ALM-MAD Iberia

the rest Emirates

Edited March 14, 2016 by laislica

[dotpoom]

In Thailand the currency we use is Thai Baht and we all know it's value, no matter what country we are from....so why do some posters insist in quoteing examples of prices in the currency of their home country?

[laislica]

In Thailand the currency we use is Thai Baht and we all know it's value, no matter what country we are from....so why do some posters insist in quoteing examples of prices in the currency of their home country?

Oh big deal!

OK, what exchange rate would you like to use?

The case here is difference in price: a ratio.

The actual currency used is immaterial.

The thread started using GBP not Baht.

Just sayin lol

Edited March 14, 2016 by laislica

[Bangkok Barry]

It varies. Yesterday I looked up fares on Emirates Bangkok-London-Bangkok in June, and the lowest fare out, with taxes was 9000+ baht and back was 13000+.

[MaeJoMTB]

For any given flight, passengers onboard may have booked their trip originating from either end. There's really no reason to think that the BKK->LHR leg would be less travelled than the LHR->BKK leg assuming that most passengers book round-trips. My guess is that many more bookings are generated for trips originating at LHR as compared to BKK, and thus the airline charges a premium for the "less-popular" origination, even though the flights and equipment are exactly the same.

In Thailand the currency we use is Thai Baht and we all know it's value, no matter what country we are from....so why do some posters insist in quoteing examples of prices in the currency of their home country?

Just to point out, all my trips are booked in London using a British Credit Card and paid in British pounds.

Only the paperwork is different.

500 rtn starting in CNX.

360 rtn starting in LHR.

@Dotpoom

I'm British, my income is British, my banking is British, my credit and debit cards are British, every transaction I make (outside of day to day living expenses in Thailand) is in British pounds.

Edited March 14, 2016 by MaeJoMTB

[Mitker]

I would add a possible extra factor

Thai Airways mission is to bring spending wallets (tourists) to Thailand and not to help us - despicable leeches - to enjoy conditions for holidaying abroad

As a significant player on the Thai routes, Thai Airways distorts the market artificially lowering inbound pricing. Other airlines may somewhat adjust to this competition scheme

[CNXBKKMAN]

^^^ I'm aware of that. Indeed I mentioned it.

But there is still something not right about that original tax/flight breakdown quoted.

You are the only one who has posted a tax breakdown. Maejo has posted his numbers but there is no breakdown of the individual taxes which is normal as its too much info that most passengers are not interested in. It's possible the YQ part is different to when you bought your ticket, business class APD is different but I don't have the numbers and can't be bothered googling them. I remember in the UK budget APD's were adjusted down if I remember right. But was that implemented at some point in the future rather than instantly? If you bought your tickets on the same day for the same departure date comparison would be simpler.

[CHRISTIANa9]

Oh well, bit the bullet and paid the 500gbp.

Return ticket,

94gbp for the airline, 406gbp in taxes

Could you post a screenshot of that, because I think now you're exaggerating about the amount of taxes included in the price.

Here ya go ........

804701_10153994408558749_1563727919_n.jpg

An extra 1.90 for SMS, 1.00 booking fee, 10.13 CC fee.

23kg only, I get 30kg from Singapore on Thai airline. Anyway it's right, someone mentioned, they charge becos they can. I was charged $300+ for completing an incomplete name on the tix, for a tix costing less than $100. If you wAnt to know it's scoot airline.

[Wasima]

I have found over the years that it also depends on WHICH day you fly. I saved a total of Thb20K in flight fees because I booked to fly on a Wednesday and return home on a Wednesday. Booking on the Monday/ weekend or Friday would have costed me 20K more. I do that with ALL our travelling and always opt to fly out on the cheaper date. This time around I've actually extended our holiday by 4 days in order to save on travelling. And spending an extra 4 days in Asia costs nothing, so I'm all good. Same happens when we fly locally and is also dependent on the day you travel and whatever holidays are coming up over that period.

Lastly, I've stopped using travel agents because I found out here at home, the agent we always use, always adds a minimum of 25% onto the price it would cost me if I booked stuff myself.

Thanks

[laislica]

I have found over the years that it also depends on WHICH day you fly. I saved a total of Thb20K in flight fees because I booked to fly on a Wednesday and return home on a Wednesday. Booking on the Monday/ weekend or Friday would have costed me 20K more. I do that with ALL our travelling and always opt to fly out on the cheaper date. This time around I've actually extended our holiday by 4 days in order to save on travelling. And spending an extra 4 days in Asia costs nothing, so I'm all good. Same happens when we fly locally and is also dependent on the day you travel and whatever holidays are coming up over that period.

Lastly, I've stopped using travel agents because I found out here at home, the agent we always use, always adds a minimum of 25% onto the price it would cost me if I booked stuff myself.

Thanks

Well done and good for you.

Would you know how to book a return flight from Almeria-Madrid with say Iberia and then onward to BKK via Dubai on say Emirates?

There is no direct flight MAD-BKK, we used to use Thai Air but they stopped doing it.

I could really use a tutorial on how to do this.

My local TA in Almeria adds a fixed fee which is not too much but to save and have flexibility would be great.

Thanks.

[Wasima]

I have to admit, it's not all that easy every time I do this... sometimes it takes the whole day to get it right. I live in SA and we only have two major airports where international flights take off from. I live in Cape Town and am about 8km way from Cape Town International Airport. Mostly direct flights from here with short stop-overs en-route.

I will give it a bash and let you know how it goes when I have a bit of time later. Will PM you if I can manage this.

[Wasima]

I have to admit, it's not all that easy every time I do this... sometimes it takes the whole day to get it right. I live in SA and we only have two major airports where international flights take off from. I live in Cape Town and am about 8km way from Cape Town International Airport. Mostly direct flights from here with short stop-overs en-route.

I will give it a bash and let you know how it goes when I have a bit of time later. Will PM you if I can manage this.

Forgot to ask... can you please let me know your dates?

[laislica]

I have to admit, it's not all that easy every time I do this... sometimes it takes the whole day to get it right. I live in SA and we only have two major airports where international flights take off from. I live in Cape Town and am about 8km way from Cape Town International Airport. Mostly direct flights from here with short stop-overs en-route.

I will give it a bash and let you know how it goes when I have a bit of time later. Will PM you if I can manage this.

Forgot to ask... can you please let me know your dates?

Thanks Wasima, because we are off topic, I have sent you a PM.

Cheers

[KittenKong]

^^^ I'm aware of that. Indeed I mentioned it.

But there is still something not right about that original tax/flight breakdown quoted.

You are the only one who has posted a tax breakdown. Maejo has posted his numbers but there is no breakdown of the individual taxes which is normal as its too much info that most passengers are not interested in. It's possible the YQ part is different to when you bought your ticket, business class APD is different but I don't have the numbers and can't be bothered googling them. I remember in the UK budget APD's were adjusted down if I remember right. But was that implemented at some point in the future rather than instantly? If you bought your tickets on the same day for the same departure date comparison would be simpler.

His price was a breakdown in that it separated the flight cost from the taxes and fees. My breakdown was somewhat more complete in that it gave details of each individual charge. Even so, there is something not right about the way they have calculated the tax/flight charge in his ticket.

The cost of the business class APD hasnt changed, as far as I know. Children's tickets were exempted, I think.

[KittenKong]

As discussed and agreed countless times previously on TVF, the price difference results from supply and demand factors. Greater demand and greater competition out of London for say LHR/BKK than out of BKK for BKK/LHR.

That may account for part of it, but not all.

After all, regardless of where you buy your ticket and start your journey the return flight is made up of exactly the same two legs, just in a different order. So this makes no difference to loading and the airline.

I suspect that part of the reason for higher prices here is that tickets here are paid for in THB which is a fairly useless currency for any non-Thai airline to hold. I also suspect that government sales taxes may play some part in it (there is no VAT on air tickets sold in the EU).

From previous discussions on this subject supply/demand and competition are the major reasons, payment currency is not a factor since many tickets are bought on line and overseas and paid for in currencies other than THB. Competition out of the UK comes first where there is substantial choice of carriers who must have the UK on their schedules, much more so than carriers needing to have Bangkok on them. Also, flight legs are not always the same, some airlines will fly London/BKK and onwards without an exact same return, it's not mirrored and doesn't have to be. Finally passenger loading or so I'm told is greater out of London than out of BKK, BKK being a stop over or intermediary point rather than a destination of similar scale, in it's own right, think transit to China, Australia etc.

Whilst you may be billed by the travel agent in a different currency, I think you will find that most airlines bill flights originating in Thailand in THB. The ones I use certainly do and no option is given to pay in another currency than THB if I buy directly from the airline. By buying from some online agents (not all) there is indeed a possibility of paying in another currency though this usually comes at a price. Check the price of Skyscanner UK (GBP) and Skyscanner TH (THB) for identical flights for confirmation.

Competition is neither here nor there as by definition any airline flying to/from BKK and LHR must fly to both BKK and LHR. Look at airlines that fly direct, if you like. The price difference exists with them too.

As for transit passengers, they dont hold tickets to BKK and so they dont count. Besides which they will almost all return as well at some point, thus balancing things out.

Edited March 14, 2016 by KittenKong

[mango66]

Best prices you usually get only on a " return " ticket,

and not to choose 2 single tickets;

[mango66]

But still better to stay 10 hrs. in Chi with Chi restrooms , than to be treated

in UE like you have to go in a Mosque;;

[F4UCorsair]

..........."

There is also the rotation of the earth. If you are on a 24 hour flight the earth will rotate once. Depending on whether the plane is flying with or against the earth's rotation, its ground speed will be faster or slower."

I love that one!!!!

I agree with NeverSure on winds, but earth's rotation???

Are you suggesting tbat if an aircraft takes off in BKK, it omly needs to maintain minimum speed to keep it aloft and wait for London to come to the aircraft??

Back to flight school theory on that one NS.

Probably a lot of contributing factors, but the principal one is supply versus demand, and there are times when west to east will be cheaper.

Edited March 14, 2016 by F4UCorsair

[fxe1200]

..........."

There is also the rotation of the earth. If you are on a 24 hour flight the earth will rotate once. Depending on whether the plane is flying with or against the earth's rotation, its ground speed will be faster or slower."

I love that one!!!!

I agree with NeverSure on winds, but earth's rotation???

Are you suggesting tbat if an aircraft takes off in BKK, it omly needs to maintain minimum speed to keep it aloft and wait for London to come to the aircraft??

Back to flight school theory on that one NS.

Probably a lot of contributing factors, but the principal one is supply versus demand, and there are times when west to east will be cheaper.

The earth turns with a speed of around 1750Km/h (circumference 42.000 divided by 24h) at the equator. The air masses moving with the rotation of the earth. Only wind will have an effect on flying time, and speed over ground.

[louse1953]

The airfare part of it is so low nowadays because about 10 years ago a lot of airlines decided to move the fuel cost out of the airfare part. On the above costing lets just say its 200gbp of that 409. If the fuel part was included in the airfare part that would have come to 294.

Now if you ticket was 50% non refundable if you cancelled, in the old days you may got 50% of 294. Today if you have the same cancellation conditions you only get 50% of 94. So you get 47 pounds back but there is a 30 pound cancellation admin charge so you get 17 pounds back on the original 503 pound ticket.

Like a poster said above,mafia.

[sandyf]

For any given flight, passengers onboard may have booked their trip originating from either end. There's really no reason to think that the BKK->LHR leg would be less travelled than the LHR->BKK leg assuming that most passengers book round-trips. My guess is that many more bookings are generated for trips originating at LHR as compared to BKK, and thus the airline charges a premium for the "less-popular" origination, even though the flights and equipment are exactly the same.

In Thailand the currency we use is Thai Baht and we all know it's value, no matter what country we are from....so why do some posters insist in quoteing examples of prices in the currency of their home country?

Just to point out, all my trips are booked in London using a British Credit Card and paid in British pounds.

Only the paperwork is different.

500 rtn starting in CNX.

360 rtn starting in LHR.

@Dotpoom

I'm British, my income is British, my banking is British, my credit and debit cards are British, every transaction I make (outside of day to day living expenses in Thailand) is in British pounds.

I agree with the point you have made.

A few years back I went back to the UK with my wife. We flew Jet Airways and sat next to each other,I had bought LHR -BKK return for £499 and I bought for my wife BKK-LHR return. As her flight originated in BKK the price defaulted to THB and was 33,000THB, about £700 at the time.

This afternoon I made inquiry on the BA site for BKK-MAN return. This again defaulted to THB and the price came up as 3400THB plus 21550THB for taxes and charges.

Certainly nothing wrong with your breakdown.

[manarak]

It's a terrible thing. Promotions from europe 450 euro . Never promotions from Bangkok, and a return starting at 800 euro.

And why should 2 one way ticket cost more than a return ticket? Airlines : the flying mafia.

Because in the case of one way tickets they are not sure you will return with them, return tickets guaranty's your return with them.

it gets even better !

sometimes a one way itinerary is MORE EXPENSIVE than return.

even more bizzare:

it can be cheaper to fly x -> y -> z than just y -> z using the exact same flight