Airliner crashes in Russia; 55 aboard reported dead

[Tywais]

In holding pattern for 10 loops before attempting the 2nd landing attempt.

[sirineou]

This from CNN. Notice winds were clocked at 97 KPH at the time of the crash.

Did nobody actually read the OP article?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

It said investigators had ruled out terrorism as a cause of the crash at this stage and that weather conditions were most-likely responsible.

The plane's pilot had circled the airport, waiting for the weather to clear before making a second attempt to land, but the aircraft's tail had clipped the runway, the ministry said.

State media reported winds of 97 kph (60 mph) at the time of the crash.

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/03/18/europe/russia-plane-crash/index.html

my uneducated guess.

the average landing speed of the plane is about 140 mph depending on flaps and weight, IMO a 97 mph tail wind or wind shear would cause the plane to drop like a rock

[Lannig]

I wouldn't take the CCTV video too seriously. Its authenticity is doubtful based on what I read on avherald.com which usually quotes reliable sources.

Otherwise, everyone's guess is as good at this time considering how little information is available. Pretty much speculation as of now.

[sirineou]

I wouldn't take the CCTV video too seriously. Its authenticity is doubtful based on what I read on avherald.com which usually quotes reliable sources.

Otherwise, everyone's guess is as good at this time considering how little information is available. Pretty much speculation as of now.

I agree with you.

But the weather is not speculation. So if one was to speculate, the weather should be at the center of such speculation at this time.

[Chicog]

The fact that other planes chose to divert and this one didn't will be of interest to the investigators I'm sure.

[SOTIRIOS]

...nowadays always a good idea to ask ......'Who was on the plane?'......

[Ulic]

This video shows it nearly nose diving into the ground. Odd, possible stall.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0wU_19diNM

Was there a fireball as it came down?

When I watch the video I will throw out, those are the planes landing lights

and the plane stalled. Of course pure speculation, but that's what we do here

on TV. RIP to passengers and crew.

[khaosai]

Hi,

Firstly thoughts wilth all affected by this tragedy.

The runway in use at this airport has an instrument landing system. It's is a category 1 system which brings you safely down to 200ft above the runway where you can then land if safe to do so. The required runway visual range on the approach chart is 550 metres or 800 meters visibility depending on whether it's reported by a system component or by observer on the ground. Based on this approach minima the cloud base and visibility being reported was better than that required to commence the approach.

The approach to this runway has a warning on the approach chart that states turbulence and wind shear can be expected. This was reported to the crew and would possibly explain the aircraft remaining in the holding pattern for an extended period of time whilst waiting for an improvement.

Workload when flying within Russia is generally increased due to the fact they operate using the metric system. A crew will have to convert the cleared height above the airfield in metres to an altitude in feet above sea level.

[stevenl]

Hi,

Firstly thoughts wilth all affected by this tragedy.

The runway in use at this airport has an instrument landing system. It's is a category 1 system which brings you safely down to 200ft above the runway where you can then land if safe to do so. The required runway visual range on the approach chart is 550 metres or 800 meters visibility depending on whether it's reported by a system component or by observer on the ground. Based on this approach minima the cloud base and visibility being reported was better than that required to commence the approach.

The approach to this runway has a warning on the approach chart that states turbulence and wind shear can be expected. This was reported to the crew and would possibly explain the aircraft remaining in the holding pattern for an extended period of time whilst waiting for an improvement.

Workload when flying within Russia is generally increased due to the fact they operate using the metric system. A crew will have to convert the cleared height above the airfield in metres to an altitude in feet above sea level.

I agree the metric system is easier. But aren't all planes instruments on imperial?

[khaosai]

Hi,

Firstly thoughts wilth all affected by this tragedy.

The runway in use at this airport has an instrument landing system. It's is a category 1 system which brings you safely down to 200ft above the runway where you can then land if safe to do so. The required runway visual range on the approach chart is 550 metres or 800 meters visibility depending on whether it's reported by a system component or by observer on the ground. Based on this approach minima the cloud base and visibility being reported was better than that required to commence the approach.

The approach to this runway has a warning on the approach chart that states turbulence and wind shear can be expected. This was reported to the crew and would possibly explain the aircraft remaining in the holding pattern for an extended period of time whilst waiting for an improvement.

Workload when flying within Russia is generally increased due to the fact they operate using the metric system. A crew will have to convert the cleared height above the airfield in metres to an altitude in feet above sea level.

I agree the metric system is easier. But aren't all planes instruments on imperial?

Yes this aircraft will fly with reference to altitude in feet based on a pressure setting based on sea level when closer to the ground.

[Chicog]

Both recorders found and weather looking favourite.

http://gulfnews.com/news/uae/emergencies/62-killed-as-flydubai-plane-crashes-in-russia-flight-recorders-retrieved-1.1693032

The landing speed of the 737 if it is light can be down to not far off 100 knots.

A 70 knot wind up the rear would easily cause a catastrophic stall with no time to recover.

Edited March 19, 2016 by Chicog

[stevenl]

Hi,

Firstly thoughts wilth all affected by this tragedy.

The runway in use at this airport has an instrument landing system. It's is a category 1 system which brings you safely down to 200ft above the runway where you can then land if safe to do so. The required runway visual range on the approach chart is 550 metres or 800 meters visibility depending on whether it's reported by a system component or by observer on the ground. Based on this approach minima the cloud base and visibility being reported was better than that required to commence the approach.

The approach to this runway has a warning on the approach chart that states turbulence and wind shear can be expected. This was reported to the crew and would possibly explain the aircraft remaining in the holding pattern for an extended period of time whilst waiting for an improvement.

Workload when flying within Russia is generally increased due to the fact they operate using the metric system. A crew will have to convert the cleared height above the airfield in metres to an altitude in feet above sea level.

I agree the metric system is easier. But aren't all planes instruments on imperial?

Yes this aircraft will fly with reference to altitude in feet based on a pressure setting based on sea level when closer to the ground.

Thanks, astounding information.

Wind info also in km/h with speedometer in knots?

Edited March 19, 2016 by stevenl

[TacoHell]

Both recorders found and weather looking favourite.

http://gulfnews.com/news/uae/emergencies/62-killed-as-flydubai-plane-crashes-in-russia-flight-recorders-retrieved-1.1693032

The landing speed of the 737 if it is light can be down to not far off 100 knots.

A 70 knot wind up the rear would easily cause a catastrophic stall with no time to recover.

incorrect, a tailwind only increases ground speed. The only way a tailwind could induce a stall is pilot error by reducing the indicated airspeed to compensate, bringing the aicraft to stall.

Furthermore a big tailwind will dramatically increase the required.distance to land but has absolutely no variable on the IAS needed to put the plane on the ground.

Large aircraft are especially at risk for running out of runway simply based on their mass.

Edited March 19, 2016 by TacoHell

[khaosai]

Hi,

Firstly thoughts wilth all affected by this tragedy.

The runway in use at this airport has an instrument landing system. It's is a category 1 system which brings you safely down to 200ft above the runway where you can then land if safe to do so. The required runway visual range on the approach chart is 550 metres or 800 meters visibility depending on whether it's reported by a system component or by observer on the ground. Based on this approach minima the cloud base and visibility being reported was better than that required to commence the approach.

The approach to this runway has a warning on the approach chart that states turbulence and wind shear can be expected. This was reported to the crew and would possibly explain the aircraft remaining in the holding pattern for an extended period of time whilst waiting for an improvement.

Workload when flying within Russia is generally increased due to the fact they operate using the metric system. A crew will have to convert the cleared height above the airfield in metres to an altitude in feet above sea level.

I agree the metric system is easier. But aren't all planes instruments on imperial?

Yes this aircraft will fly with reference to altitude in feet based on a pressure setting based on sea level when closer to the ground.

Thanks, astounding information.

Wind info also in km/h with speedometer in knots?

Surface wind speeds are passed in metres per second. You approximately double it to get the knot

equivalent.

[khaosai]

Both recorders found and weather looking favourite.

http://gulfnews.com/news/uae/emergencies/62-killed-as-flydubai-plane-crashes-in-russia-flight-recorders-retrieved-1.1693032

The landing speed of the 737 if it is light can be down to not far off 100 knots.

A 70 knot wind up the rear would easily cause a catastrophic stall with no time to recover.

incorrect, a tailwind only increases ground speed. The only way a tailwind could induce a stall is pilot error by reducing the indicated airspeed to compensate, bringing the aicraft to stall.

Furthermore a big tailwind will dramatically increase the required.distance to land but has absolutely no variable on the IAS needed to put the plane on the ground.

Large aircraft are especially at risk for running out of runway simply based on their mass.

The effects of horizontal wind shear on an aircraft close to the ground can either increase or decrease the aircraft performance depending on whether the wind is increasing or decreasing.

An increasing headwind will have the effect of increasing the indicated speed. A increasing tail wind will have the effect of decreasing the indicated speed. You have to therefore be very careful close to the ground with reducing aircraft performance.

[sirineou]

Both recorders found and weather looking favourite.

http://gulfnews.com/news/uae/emergencies/62-killed-as-flydubai-plane-crashes-in-russia-flight-recorders-retrieved-1.1693032

The landing speed of the 737 if it is light can be down to not far off 100 knots.

A 70 knot wind up the rear would easily cause a catastrophic stall with no time to recover.

incorrect, a tailwind only increases ground speed. The only way a tailwind could induce a stall is pilot error by reducing the indicated airspeed to compensate, bringing the aicraft to stall.

Furthermore a big tailwind will dramatically increase the required.distance to land but has absolutely no variable on the IAS needed to put the plane on the ground.

Large aircraft are especially at risk for running out of runway simply based on their mass.

Ground speed has nothing to do with lift, Lift is caused by air flowing over the wings . It is air speed that causes lift

if the ground speed is 100 mph and you have a 100 mph tail wind. your relative air speed is zero , thus no lift

Edited March 19, 2016 by sirineou

[up-country_sinclair]

...nowadays always a good idea to ask ......'Who was on the plane?'......

Point taken, but I think the more pertinent question would be, "Who was flying the plane, and how many flight hours did he/she have?".

[TacoHell]

Both recorders found and weather looking favourite.

http://gulfnews.com/news/uae/emergencies/62-killed-as-flydubai-plane-crashes-in-russia-flight-recorders-retrieved-1.1693032

The landing speed of the 737 if it is light can be down to not far off 100 knots.

A 70 knot wind up the rear would easily cause a catastrophic stall with no time to recover.

incorrect, a tailwind only increases ground speed. The only way a tailwind could induce a stall is pilot error by reducing the indicated airspeed to compensate, bringing the aicraft to stall.

Furthermore a big tailwind will dramatically increase the required.distance to land but has absolutely no variable on the IAS needed to put the plane on the ground.

Large aircraft are especially at risk for running out of runway simply based on their mass.

The effects of horizontal wind shear on an aircraft close to the ground can either increase or decrease the aircraft performance depending on whether the wind is increasing or decreasing.

An increasing headwind will have the effect of increasing the indicated speed. A increasing tail wind will have the effect of decreasing the indicated speed. You have to therefore be very careful close to the ground with reducing aircraft performance.

I was speaking of tailwinds not wind shear in regards to the post I replied to.

But since you want to talk about about wind shear, the 737-800 (and most all commercial aircraft) have wind shear detection and radar, both of which would of gave the pilots ample warning if encountered.

Edited March 19, 2016 by TacoHell

[TacoHell]

...nowadays always a good idea to ask ......'Who was on the plane?'......

Point taken, but I think the more pertinent question would be, "Who was flying the plane, and how many flight hours did he/she have?".

Al-Ghaith insists the captain, Aristos Socratous, was a highly experienced pilot with over 5,700 flight hours and that the plane was new. Manufactured in 2011, the aircraft passed its latest maintenance on January 21, 2016.

https://www.rt.com/news/336194-flydubai-fz981-crash-rostov/

[stevenl]

I agree the metric system is easier. But aren't all planes instruments on imperial?

Yes this aircraft will fly with reference to altitude in feet based on a pressure setting based on sea level when closer to the ground.

Thanks, astounding information.

Wind info also in km/h with speedometer in knots?

Surface wind speeds are passed in metres per second. You approximately double it to get the knot

equivalent.

Thanks, I find it astounding to hear that besides listening and interpreting their instruments and other information, e.g. from flight control, they also have to perform, admittedly fairly simple but still, calculations that seem to be easy to avoid.

[Chicog]

Both recorders found and weather looking favourite.

http://gulfnews.com/news/uae/emergencies/62-killed-as-flydubai-plane-crashes-in-russia-flight-recorders-retrieved-1.1693032

The landing speed of the 737 if it is light can be down to not far off 100 knots.

A 70 knot wind up the rear would easily cause a catastrophic stall with no time to recover.

incorrect, a tailwind only increases ground speed. The only way a tailwind could induce a stall is pilot error by reducing the indicated airspeed to compensate, bringing the aicraft to stall.

Furthermore a big tailwind will dramatically increase the required.distance to land but has absolutely no variable on the IAS needed to put the plane on the ground.

Large aircraft are especially at risk for running out of runway simply based on their mass.

Ground speed has nothing to do with lift, Lift is caused by air flowing over the wings . It is air speed that causes lift

if the ground speed is 100 mph and you have a 100 mph tail wind. your relative air speed is zero , thus no lift

And when you have no (or insufficient) lift....

[TacoHell]

Thanks, I find it astounding to hear that besides listening and interpreting their instruments and other information, e.g. from flight control, they also have to perform, admittedly fairly simple but still, calculations that seem to be easy to avoid.

They don't. Modern aircraft can display both.

[rooster59]

Russia plane crash: Flydubai says ‘too early’ to determine cause

By Alasdair Sandford

Aviation experts are investigating what caused a passenger jet to crash as it tried to land in southern Russia, killing all 62 people on board.

Russian officials say both of the plane’s flight recorders have been recovered undamaged.

Some 700 emergency workers went to the scene of the crash on Saturday – where amid falling snow, wreckage lay strewn across a wide area.

The Boeing 737-800, operated by Emirates-based budget airline Flydubai, came down at Rostov-on-Don amid difficult weather conditions at the end of a flight from Dubai.

Investigators are examining various possible causes, including human error, a technical failure and bad weather conditions.

Earlier, Russian investigators were quoted as saying they believed pilot error or a technical failure was the most likely reason for the crash.

Flydubai’s Chief Executive Ghaith Al Ghaith said there was no distress call from the pilot and that it was too early to say what caused the crash.

Both pilot and co-pilot, a Cypriot and a Spaniard, each had over 5,000 hours of flight experience.

Russia’s emergencies ministry said the disaster happened at 3.40 local time (00.40 GMT) on Saturday morning.

An airport security camera captured the moment Flight FZ981 crashed overnight, inside the airport’s perimeter but about 250 metres short of the runway.

Strong winds were reported at the time, but visibility was said to be good, according to the Flight Safety Foundation.

The plane was reportedly in a holding position for about two hours and the crash happened more than two hours after its scheduled arrival time.

The Rostov region’s emergency ministry said that the plane’s wing hit the ground on its second attempt to land and burst into flames.

Some reports appeared to suggest the plane had been ascending before experiencing a sudden fall.


The Investigative Committee of Russia said there were no survivors among the 55 passengers and seven crew members.

Flydubai said the passenger fatalities included 33 women, 18 men and four children. Their nationalities included 44 Russians, eight Ukrainians, two Indians and one Uzbekistani.

The airline said in a series of updated statements that everything was being done to help those affected.

The disaster is the budget airline’s first since it began operating in 2009.

-- (c) Copyright Euronews 2016-03-20

[NeverSure]

"The Rostov region’s emergency ministry said that the plane’s wing hit the ground on its second attempt to land and burst into flames."

I find this one a bit hard to accept considering how steep the descent was...

"Some reports appeared to suggest the plane had been ascending before experiencing a sudden fall."

I could accept this one - a stall.

It will be interesting to learn what they find in the black boxes...

[rooster59]

Heavy winds as FlyDubai plane crashes in Russia, killing 62

JIM HEINTZ, Associated Press
VLADIMIR ISACHENKOV, Associated Press


MOSCOW (AP) — Winds were gusting before dawn Saturday over the airport in the southern Russian city of Rostov-on-Don when a plane carrying 62 people from a favorite Russian holiday destination decided to abort its landing.

The timing was tricky. Two planes had landed just a few minutes before the FlyDubai plane aimed to touch down. On the other hand, a Russian Aeroflot plane scheduled to land around the same time tried to come down three times then diverted to another airport, according to Flightradar24, an aviation website.

The FlyDubai pilots chose to put their Boeing 737-800 into a holding pattern, circling for two hours over the city located 60 kilometers (37 miles) from the Ukraine border. But when they did finally try to land, something went catastrophically wrong. Their plane plummeted to Earth and exploded in a huge fireball, killing everyone aboard.

Grainy video footage, apparently from a security camera near the airport that was posted on Russian websites, showed a plane streaking toward the ground at a steep angle, then exploding. The powerful explosion left a big crater in the airport's runway and pulverized the plane, but investigators recovered both flight recorders.

The cause of the crash wasn't immediately known, but officials and experts pointed at a sudden gust of wind as a possible reason.

"By all appearances, the cause of the air crash was the strongly gusting wind, approaching a hurricane level," said Vasily Golubev, governor of the Rostov region 950 kilometers (600 miles) south of Moscow.

Emergencies Minister Vladimir Puchkov said the recorders were being flown to Moscow late Saturday for examination by experts from Russia, the United Arab Emirates, France and the US; the US-made Boeing had French-made engines.

It was FlyDubai's first crash since the budget carrier began operating in 2009. Its fleet consists of newer 737-800 aircraft like the one that crashed.

The plane's 55 passengers, 44 of them Russian, ranged in age from 4 to 67; eight others were from Ukraine, two were from India and one from Uzbekistan. Its crew of seven was an ethnic melange — two Spaniards and one person each from Cyprus, Colombia, Russia, the Seychelles and Kyrgyzstan.

Dubai is a popular destination for Russian vacationers and many Russians work in the city. The carrier has been flying to Rostov-on-Don since 2013.

According to weather data reported by Russian state television, when the FlyDubai plane first tried to land, the winds at ground level weren't dangerously strong, but at an altitude of 500 meters (1,640 feet) and higher they reached a near-hurricane speed of around 30 meters per second (67 mph). Later, when the plane crashed, winds near the surface reached 22 meters per second (49 mph) and could have been even stronger at altitude.

Ian Petchenik, a spokesman for the flight-tracking website Flightradar24, told The Associated Press that the FlyDubai plane missed its approach, then entered a holding pattern, circling for about two hours before making another landing attempt.

FlyDubai CEO Ghaith al-Ghaith said the plane attempted to land in line with established procedures. He added the pilots had not issued any distress call and hadn't attempted to divert to an alternate airport.

Russian news websites released a recording of what was said to be the final communications between the plane and air traffic controllers, in which the pilot repeatedly but calmly asks about weather conditions.

Flightradar24's data indicated that the Dubai plane began climbing again after a go-around when it suddenly started to fall at a vertical speed of up to 6,400 meters per minute (240 mph).

"It was an uncontrollable fall," veteran Russian pilot Sergei Kruglikov said on state television. He said a sudden change in wind speed and direction could have caused the wings to abruptly lose their lifting power.

He said the pilots would have known seconds before the crash that they were going to die but the "passengers and the cabin crew likely didn't realize they were facing imminent death."

Russian Pilot Vitaly Sokolovsky told Rossiya 24 television that a sudden gust of wind could be particularly dangerous at low altitude while the plane was flying slowly at low power and the pilot was throttling up the engines to make another landing attempt.

The plane's captain, 38-year-old Cypriot Aristos Socratous, was happy working for FlyDubai but was planning to leave them for a job with Ryanair in Cyprus, a friend told The Associated Press. Socratous' wife is to give birth to the couple's first child in a few weeks and Socratous wanted to raise his family at home, the friend said, speaking on condition of anonymity due to the sensitivity of situation.

Al-Ghaith said the plane's two pilots — from Cyprus and Spain — had 5,965 and 5,769 hours of flying time respectively, making them "quite experienced." The plane was built in 2011 and underwent a detailed maintenance inspection in January, he added.

"As far as we know, the airport was open and we were good to operate," al-Ghaith said, adding that the plane couldn't have landed without air traffic controllers' permission.

Russian President Vladimir Putin offered his condolences to the victims' families and top Russian Cabinet officials flew to the crash site to oversee the investigation. Although the airport was closed to further flights, a steady trickle of local people came to the terminal Saturday to lay flowers and stuffed toys in memoriam. Relatives of the victims were kept far from any media.

Alexander Neradko, head of the Russian state civil aviation agency, Rosaviatsiya, said it was up to the pilot to decide if weather conditions allowed the landing. He said traffic controllers in Rostov-on-Don had acted in line with standard instructions.

"Our air traffic controllers were acting in full accordance with international rules and there is no reason to talk about any flaws in their work," he said from Rostov-on-Don.

Transport Minister Maxim Sokolov, who also arrived in Rostov-on-Don, said the airport had undergone a "complete overhaul" last year and received "all the necessary clearances, including international ones."

Emirati authorities including the president, Sheikh Khalifa bin Zayed Al Nahyan, sent condolences to Putin. Dubai ruler Sheikh Mohammed bin Rashid Al Maktoum, who also serves as the Emirates' vice president and prime minister, expressed his regrets on his Twitter feed.

Officials said the plane and bodies of the victims were blown into small pieces by the powerful blast, making the identification process long and difficult. Investigators, however, said the plane's cockpit conversation recorder and another one recording flight data were in satisfactory condition.

FlyDubai was launched in 2008 by the government of Dubai, the Gulf commercial hub that is part of the seven-state United Arab Emirates federation. It has expanded rapidly in Russia and other parts of the former Soviet Union.

The airline has a good safety record. In January 2015, one of its planes was struck on the fuselage by what appeared to small-arms fire shortly before it landed safely in Baghdad.

-- (c) Associated Press 2016-03-20

[stevenl]

Thanks, I find it astounding to hear that besides listening and interpreting their instruments and other information, e.g. from flight control, they also have to perform, admittedly fairly simple but still, calculations that seem to be easy to avoid.

They don't. Modern aircraft can display both.

So the previous assessment that the pilots have to recalculate information given is incorrect.

[Inyourendo]

So many aviation experts in TV ....Youse should start a hub

[Tywais]

"The Rostov region’s emergency ministry said that the plane’s wing hit the ground on its second attempt to land and burst into flames."

I find this one a bit hard to accept considering how steep the descent was...

Me too as this 2nd video reflects the same as the 1st one, effectively diving into the ground from altitude. The debris field also suggests a very high impact velocity. A wing hitting the ground and the plane would not have disintegrated like this. Another video comment stated the aircraft was already on fire before the crash. The below video does appear to show it as a fire ball.

[Tywais]

Look at the debris field. Massive impact.

[Kabula]

If wind sheer is confirmed as the tower allegedly warned the pilot about violent weather, the cause was stupidly on the part of a irresponsible and negligent Captain! After examining the wreckage, it is my opinion wind sheer evidence is clear with that massive devastation at a low altitude. The airline better start opening their purse strings as if the above is true the proximate cause is pilot error. An act of God will be argued, but the fact he had made two attempts combined with the massive destruction this airline will be in trouble. He was probably in a hurry, but should have practiced avoidance. This is a perfect example why I no longer fly and love the BTS!