Gay parents fight for custody with surrogate in Thailand

[Jingthing]

What are you on about? The contract was signed before the law changed.

[Jingthing]

On the whole,i have nothing against gay men.Although,i have to say,i have no time for camp men,I find that camp man are not my cup of tea. I say this,because working in the big hotels in London and certain 'Gentle men's' clubs,i found the 'antics and behaviour of the Kitchen and room staff very embarrassing.

I don't blame couples for WANTING kids.But i find something odorous about a child being raised in a homosexual environment.It doesn't give the child enough space to form its own sexual identity. However i think that the surrogate mother is pulling a fast one here.Lying about being unaware that they were gay,refusing to hand the child over,and probably trying to up the ante at a later date.I think they were foolish to carry out the plan here thinking that this would not happen.This is a country where no one is to be trusted,especially where money is concerned.

Yes we know. Many anti-gay bigots don't support parenthood rights for GLBT people.

[False top]

Best of luck to the happy parents!

And don't forget the mother who brought this baby into the world. Presumably the shirt lifters didn't inform the surrogate mother their orientation. A sorry mess indeed.

The gay couple claim she was informed. The baby has no biological connection to the surrogate woman. One of the fathers is the biological father. The surrogate woman provided a legal service which she signed a contract about.

Mostly the arguments against this couple getting their child are about anti-gay bias. If they were an opposite sex married couple they wouldn't have been subject to this nightmare.

If they were an opposite sex married couple they wouldn't have been subject to this nightmare.

And if this was an opposite sex married couple you would not have bothered posting in this thread.

Your only interest in this thread is to draw a reaction and when that arrives you play the gay card.

Pathetic.

[Jingthing]

Silly argument.

There wouldn't be a thread because the family would be LONG GONE with their baby and everyone knows that.

[Langsuan Man]

Gay or not gay is of no concern to me, the fact that once again, Thais are not being forced to live up to contracts that they freely signed is what disturbs me

The sexual orientation of those involved is not the point, contractual law should be the only criteria for enforcement

[keithathome]

Khon Kaen Dave I was raised in a heterosexual environment with one younger brother and two older sisters, all married with kids. I grew up to be gay. Your argument re. environment does not stand up to inspection. And I was not molested at an early age and I don't hate/love my mother/father. I'm perfectly normal but gay.

[Jingthing]

Gay or not gay is of no concern to me, the fact that once again, Thais are not being forced to live up to contracts that they freely signed is what disturbs me

The sexual orientation of those involved is not the point, contractual law should be the only criteria for enforcement

Yes but the surrogate woman is using the gay red herring to support her case. So that becomes part of the case regardless.

[Patsycat]

Did any of you actually look at the pictures of Carmen, her brother and her daddies?

Did any of you read about the extended families whith lots of Aunties and uncles etc. waiting all these months for their grandchild or niece to come home.

I expect not - all you can focus on is that they are two married to each other men.

What if it was two married to each other women who had a boy through surrogacy? Would you be shouting about a father figure?

And what happens if they don't win the court case? Will you all be clapping your hands in glee when Carmen is carted of to an orphanage away from the only family she knows?

I hope not.

[Howitzer]

Strange in a country very tolerant towards homosexuality.

More likely the mother just became attached to the child and wanted to keep it, along with the money.

it's said lake is the biological father of that baby and the mother is unknown but most likely is asian yet from the picture shown the baby looks 100% asian not luk kreung.

[Howitzer]

Gay or not gay is of no concern to me, the fact that once again, Thais are not being forced to live up to contracts that they freely signed is what disturbs me

The sexual orientation of those involved is not the point, contractual law should be the only criteria for enforcement

it is also interesting that she used the 2 gay men raising a child as a nuclear family as abnormal to state her case and refusal to give them their child and the thai courts actually took that into consideration.

Obviously thailand and the rest of the world has not caught on to these new liberal concepts of the west but i am betting were they a normal male/female couple and let's assume she refused to give up the child with another excuse obviously there would be a significantly high chance she would lose the case

[Patsycat]

Strange in a country very tolerant towards homosexuality.

More likely the mother just became attached to the child and wanted to keep it, along with the money.

it's said lake is the biological father of that baby and the mother is unknown but most likely is asian yet from the picture shown the baby looks 100% asian not luk kreung.

If you knew the story from the beginning you would know that the egg donor actually came forward to help this couple. She is also the egg donor for their son.

The surrogate has had almost no contact with the child. Her husband does not want the child. So where does that leave the child? In an orphanage or with people who have shown time and time again how much they love her?

[lkv]

...

So where does that leave the child?

...

At the moment, it leaves the child in a Thai condo for 14 months already because as we all know Thai courts move very fast with these type of things.

[uthaithanirules]

What are you on about? The contract was signed before the law changed.

LOL, so?

Its Thailand

Watch what happens

[Yunla]

I agree with the point made on page one, about how adoption is better. I know for a fact that millions of children would love to be adopted under the basic criteria of a loving secure home. This is a dream come true for most of these kids, and this can be provided by gay or straight couples.

This legal case seems very complicated now. I feel very sorry for the kid to be caught in the middle of all this.

If this couple do lose the case and the kid, I hope that they will adopt a child and make a big social media point about how great adoption is, both for the lucky parents and the lucky adopted child. That would be like turning a lost legal case, into something very positive.

[Jingthing]

Oh jeez. This couple didn't seek to be public figures. That was forced on them by this situation.

[starky]

To anti-gay bigots this case isn't about a surrogacy contract. It's about furthering their rationalization that GLBT don't deserve equal civil rights here, here, or anywhere.

Surrogacy isn't legal in most nations.

But it was when this contract was signed in Thailand.

There really shouldn't be any other issue in this case.

Spot on. The bigots and homophobes are just muddying the water. There are many people that shouldn't be allowed to have children and many children being raised in terrible circumstances. My problem is with the real problem here and that is surrogacy. Biologically I believe if you are physically unable to have children then adoption is your only option. The whole idea of "making" purely because you want one to me is abhorrent regardless of your sexual orientation. However as JT has correctly observed at that time in Thailand it was legal, there was a contract and a baby has been produced. The only fair option is for the baby to be released to the Italian couple and pray that they are good and loving parents who raise their child in a world of love and tolerance. Good luck little one have a great life.

[Patsycat]

They don't want to adopt a child. They want their child!! Who by her father is an American. And should have the passport.

Shise, i hope this works out for them. It is heartbreaking.

What they must be going through must be hell.

Their facebook is just filled with positivity.

[Jingthing]

The dedication of this couple towards THEIR child, fighting so hard and so long to keep THEIR child, is what we all expect from GOOD parents.

[Yunla]

Oh jeez. This couple didn't seek to be public figures. That was forced on them by this situation.

I completely agree.

However my point was that they are now public figures, and if they did lose this case, they have a platform and they could use for a very good cause by promoting adoption.

I was quite clear about this in my post. I never implied they had been seeking celebrity status, only that they now have a platform by accident.

[tominbkk]

He's a "bit" old school. That's rich.

Sometimes we call guys like him "set in his ways". Haha Edited March 27, 2016 by tominbkk

[tominbkk]

Morality? Nothing against gays, nothing against marriage of same gender couples.

But when it comes to very young children who can't make their own decision, it's a completely different ballgame.

But in my humble opinion, having two gay men as "parents", gives me a strange feeling in my stomach that i want to throw up.

Once the girl gets older, will she have a shower together with both moms? Or are they both dads?

Will the "giver", or the "taker" bring her to school and pick her up? Did anybody even think about the girl's feelings when she's older?

Oh, and the girl will have to lie about her real mom and it's pretty obvious that she'll sooner, or later want to have a mother.

I think it's in our nature. No laws will ever change that.

Please call me what you want. An old fashioned idiot, an arrogant assholle, anything you want, no problem at all.

But when two gay men want to "buy" a baby, it makes me feel very sick. And their lawyer can be as confident as he wants to.

He's only doing it for the money and he gives a rat's ass about the little girl.What would she say once she's a little bit older?

Mom sold me to some gay guys?

And that's exactly when her problems will start.Where's your mother? Aehh, hmm, well, she sold me to them many years ago, but i love them as my own mom and dad.?

I hope the girl will stay with her mom and her feelings to the baby are genuine.

Fact is that the little girl can't make a decision, so anything that's going to happen should be in favor of her and not of two gay men who just thought, hey let's buy a baby.

Please change your Avatar to " lostinspace'

It's my own personal opinion. Your reply only shows ignorance. There's no "Freedom of Speech" here. Thanks for the flowers.

You spoke freely, he spoke freely. So suck it up or shut the duck up.

[Jingthing]

Oh jeez. This couple didn't seek to be public figures. That was forced on them by this situation.

I completely agree.

However my point was that they are now public figures, and if they did lose this case, they have a platform and they could use for a very good cause by promoting adoption.

I was quite clear about this in my post. I never implied they had been seeking celebrity status, only that they now have a platform by accident.

I find your suggestion in bad taste and ridiculous actually. It's all about your agenda and nothing to do with them. They already have two children and doing all they can to keep the youngest. Focus on that please.

[shunter]

The whole case hinges on deception, ignorance of or a deliberate flouting or manipulation of the law by the parties concerned, one could also include ''pecuniary gain'' by the surrogate mother.

The deliberate act of departing from Spain would seem to indicate a deliberate act of deception to further the surrogacy birth process here in Thailand. The drawing up of a contract implies a commercial arrangement with a payment as opposed to a social contract. Thereby could hang the outcome of this matter. Is it, was it ,a commercial and planned act sponsored by the prospective parents and the surrogate mother and of course the broker. Or is it a genuine social crusade by the mother free from any personal pressure or financial inducement so as to produce a child for the prospective parents so as to complete a family ?

There is the issue of the adoption of a child by the prospective parents, such a situation could be cited as evidence that in truth the child produced by a surrogacy process is deemed to be a deliberate act to create a ''designer child'' gender wise and ethnically for financial gain by the surrogate mother and the broker. A financially sponsored service by the prospective parent so as to produce and thus obtain a child or a product to the specifications they the prospective parents desired.

The whole issue of the gender of the prospective parents needs to be and would be best left out of the issue, the crusading of all parties for or against the gender issue is going to damage this case and ultimately the child at the center of the issue.

The whole matter is based upon civil law, but be aware, there are elements of law that could actually put some of the actions by those concerned into a criminal law arena.

Edited March 27, 2016 by shunter

[Jingthing]

Diversionary gobbledygook.

[shunter]

Sorry jingthing it is the based upon the process of the law,.

[smutcakes]

It's very sad when a child is conceived according to a fee and a contract as to its future. Soon have '' Trading Babies R Us'' shares on the stock exchange trading floor if this abhorrent trend continues.

No we won't.

Scare mongering and off topic too.

This isn't about legalization of surrogacy in Thailand.

It's about one case when a legal contract was signed between two parties.

The parents fulfilled their part and now it's time for the surrogate woman to fulfill as well and let that loving family GO HOME TO SPAIN!

You know them well do you? Is it a loving family?

[Jingthing]

Sorry jingthing it is the based upon the process of the law,.

Are you presenting yourself as an expert on Thai law and if so, what are the particulars?

My impression of those gobbledygook "legal" rants are more like a crafty pose.

Edited March 27, 2016 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

It's very sad when a child is conceived according to a fee and a contract as to its future. Soon have '' Trading Babies R Us'' shares on the stock exchange trading floor if this abhorrent trend continues.

No we won't.

Scare mongering and off topic too.

This isn't about legalization of surrogacy in Thailand.

It's about one case when a legal contract was signed between two parties.

The parents fulfilled their part and now it's time for the surrogate woman to fulfill as well and let that loving family GO HOME TO SPAIN!

You know them well do you? Is it a loving family?

Don't know them at all except for the press.

[uthaithanirules]

Diversionary gobbledygook.

But shunters post above, what I assume you are referring to.

Is what most are going to believe, no one is going to believe the donor and surrogate didnt face financial pressure. Its thailand.

Manority wont care if parents are gay, why Thailand, why not find a surrogate in Spain or US?.....becuase.....

[Jingthing]

Diversionary gobbledygook.

But shunters post above, what I assume you are referring to.

Is what most are going to believe, no one is going to believe the donor and surrogate didnt face financial pressure. Its thailand.

Manority wont care if parents are gay, why Thailand, why not find a surrogate in Spain or US?.....becuase.....

The child exists and has bonded well with THESE parents.

Why is the question of other options even relevant?

Of course infertile couples go to nations like India and Nepal because it is LOWER COST.

So what? How is that relevant?

To add surrogacy is legal in the USA (not legal in MOST countries) and I think it is NOT legal in Spain.

Last I heard surrogacy for gay couples is NOT legal in India, but is in Nepal.

Nepal for some reason is popular with gay Israeli couples (who interestingly can't legally marry IN Israel).

Thailand of course has changed its laws but AFTER the contract in THIS case.

It's super easy to ask ACADEMIC questions like why didn't this couple go to Nepal or adopt, but, again, THIS BABY EXISTS.

Edited March 27, 2016 by Jingthing