Gay parents fight for custody with surrogate in Thailand

[johnatong]

Little girls grow up .

I wonder how these two gays are going to explain the difficulties associated with managing menstruation or bra buying to this poor child .

Somethings are best managed by a female Mother

[Jingthing]

Little girls grow up .

I wonder how these two gays are going to explain the difficulties associated with managing menstruation or bra buying to this poor child .

Somethings are best managed by a female Mother

Ever heard of a single father with a child? Speaking of GROWING up.

There is no mother in the case. The surrogate woman is not the mother. The egg donor wants to married couple to keep their baby.

Edited April 12, 2016 by Jingthing

[johnatong]

Little girls grow up .

I wonder how these two gays are going to explain the difficulties associated with managing menstruation or bra buying to this poor child .

Somethings are best managed by a female Mother

Ever heard of a single father with a child? Speaking of GROWING up.

Ever hear of a single father having female support ? Grow up .

Gays should not be messing with children .

[Jingthing]

Little girls grow up .

I wonder how these two gays are going to explain the difficulties associated with managing menstruation or bra buying to this poor child .

Somethings are best managed by a female Mother

Ever heard of a single father with a child? Speaking of GROWING up.

Ever hear of a single father having female support ? Grow up .

Gays should not be messing with children .

Do you think gay men aren't human beings?

Reports are there is a large supportive family back in Spain waiting to welcome the child. Including women.

The level of your intolerance and bigotry is depressing.

I don't see any value in it except to spread the virus of hatred.

Ignore list time.

Edited April 12, 2016 by Jingthing

[johnatong]

Little girls grow up .

I wonder how these two gays are going to explain the difficulties associated with managing menstruation or bra buying to this poor child .

Somethings are best managed by a female Mother

Ever heard of a single father with a child? Speaking of GROWING up.

Ever hear of a single father having female support ? Grow up .

Gays should not be messing with children .

Do you think gay men aren't human beings?

Reports are there is a large supportive family back in Spain waiting to welcome the child. Including womeen.

The level of your intolerance and bigotry is depressing.

I don't see any value in it except to spread the virus of hatred.

Ignore list time.

A pathetic response!

Ignore if you must .

When gays can create children without the assistance of a bought poor surrogate I might be prepared to listen.

Why did the gays not purchase an expensive Western surrogate ?

[Sawan Chan 7]

Your argument vigorous as it is sadly is flawed 2fishin2. You yourself state that the child is the most important issue which is what I have maintained all along from a legal standpoint.

We are not talking about contractual law we are talking about a child who has rights in the matter.

The mother has reneged it would seem on the contract and the two parents involved have been somewhat creative in the drawing up of the ''contract'' which has to a degree manipulated the laws of the land. The ''contract'' in fact has been disputed and is still open to dispute and in truth has about much worth as a used tissue.

As you rightly state it is not the child's fault she is designated a ''designer child'' or we could also state she is a human rent a womb child conceived for commercial purposes, those faults lie with the surrogate parents and the prospective adopters.Whatever view one takes the name tag will always be there.

The muddying of the waters by Jingthing and others is no more than a sensational climbing on the politically correct ''gay rights bandwagon by the hijacking and the diversion of the facts surrounding the matter.

It is very interesting to note that the two prospective parents do seem to have stayed away from this forum and this thread.

Now ask yourself why that may be? Certainly they have conducted their affairs concerning the matter elsewhere and rightly so under their own banner so to speak.

All this thread is is a determined crusade that is being conducted on some other persons warhorse to promote one persons and his allies point of view,.

That campaign being carried on here by parties not involved with the case (that includes the for and against groups too) may well do irreparable damage to the case of the two parents involved as well as the child who sadly everyone seems to forget, in truth she the child is being used as a bargaining point a flag to rally to without any consideration as to her welfare in both the short and long term.

I'm sure they are too ashamed to come on here and defend their unnatural, selfish actions. They should but a puppy or a kitten.

The poor kid when she gets to school, how she will be teased and suffer at not having a mother.

Edited April 12, 2016 by Sawan Chan 7

[lkv]

When gays can create children without the assistance of a bought poor surrogate I might be prepared to listen.

What gave you the incorrect impression that your attention was required?

[lkv]

I'm sure they are too ashamed to come on here and defend their unnatural, selfish actions. They should but a puppy or a kitten.

The poor kid when she gets to school, how she will be teased and suffer at not having a mother.

We had this argument a few weeks ago. I have explained already what the demographic that agrees with you is. Ask anybody 18-30 what their opinion is about gay people and you will get a shock.

Based on that, it's fair to assume that by the time your demographic passes away (when Carmen becomes a teenager), the response in the next young demographic will be even better than it is today.

Edited April 12, 2016 by lkv

[johnatong]

When gays can create children without the assistance of a bought poor surrogate I might be prepared to listen.

What gave you the incorrect impression that your attention was required?

What gave you the impression that your attention was required ?

Are you now going to explain how gays make babies without buying some poor woman from SE Asia to assist ?

[lkv]

When gays can create children without the assistance of a bought poor surrogate I might be prepared to listen.

What gave you the incorrect impression that your attention was required?

What gave you the impression that your attention was required ?

Are you now going to explain how gays make babies without buying some poor woman from SE Asia to assist ?

Do I need to explain or convince you of anything? You're confusing me with the other regular poster that actually bothers to argue with you guys (with respect to him).

I could not be bothered that much really.

Edited April 12, 2016 by lkv

[johnatong]

When gays can create children without the assistance of a bought poor surrogate I might be prepared to listen.

What gave you the incorrect impression that your attention was required?

What gave you the impression that your attention was required ?

Are you now going to explain how gays make babies without buying some poor woman from SE Asia to assist ?

Do I need to explain or convince you of anything? You're confusing me with the other regular poster that actually bothers to argue with you guys (with respect to him).

I could not be bothered that much really.

Does that mean you do not know how gays make babies unless they buy a poor uneducated woman's womb ?

[lkv]

Does that mean you do not know how gays make babies unless they buy a poor uneducated woman's womb ?

No, it means trying to change a retired person's view on things is a futile exercise.

Edited April 12, 2016 by lkv

[Sawan Chan 7]

Does that mean you do not know how gays make babies unless they buy a poor uneducated woman's womb ?

No, it means trying to change a retired person's view on things is a futile exercise.

Who's retired? Not me for another 20 years.

Anyway are you saying retired people need their views changed just because it differs from yours?

[lkv]

Who's retired? Not me for another 20 years.

Anyway are you saying retired people need their views changed just because it differs from yours?

No, what I am saying is that my view is shared by about 80% of the young 18-30 demographic, and the rest of 20% had their values indoctrinated by parents who share a similar view with yours.

[Sawan Chan 7]

Who's retired? Not me for another 20 years.

Anyway are you saying retired people need their views changed just because it differs from yours?

No, what I am saying is that my view is shared by about 80% of the young 18-30 demographic, and the rest of 20% had their values indoctrinated by parents who share a similar view with yours.

Can you wrote references where you got these statistics.

[lkv]

Yes.

http://www.pewforum.org/2015/07/29/graphics-slideshow-changing-attitudes-on-gay-marriage/

For the US the numbers are lower. Of all adults, 55% agree with gay marriage.

From the millennials (1981 or later) 70% support gay marriage.

The numbers are higher for Europe, for instance in the Irish referendum, 62% of all adults agreed with gay marriage.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/marriage-referendum

I'm pretty sure I saw somewhere the numbers for Millenials in Europe touching 80% (it is 70% in the US at the moment as I said), but I cannot find that data. I will come back to that if it pleases you.

There is a division in views based on age, whereas its 70% acceptance in the US for the Millenials demographic, for the Silent Generation (1928-1945) it's only 39%.

Edited April 12, 2016 by lkv

[jaidam]

Who's retired? Not me for another 20 years.

Anyway are you saying retired people need their views changed just because it differs from yours?

No, what I am saying is that my view is shared by about 80% of the young 18-30 demographic, and the rest of 20% had their values indoctrinated by parents who share a similar view with yours.

if what you say is true, and i doubt it, the 80% only hold their view through being lied to by the media and authority. I mean look, there is a 70 yr old gay man and his gay male partner, virtual uk royalty with 2 tiny children, and we are forced to accept that this is both normal and good. Of course it is a travesty and the kids face a cruel life because of the usual true stereotyping of their "parents" substance abuse, high promiscuity, unprotected sex and because of the age will be dead before "his kids" turn 16. It is sick and that is how this whole sorry circus started, with lies and naivety.

Just because msm don't report it, doesn't mean it didn't happen.

[Sawan Chan 7]

Yes.

http://www.pewforum.org/2015/07/29/graphics-slideshow-changing-attitudes-on-gay-marriage/

For the US the numbers are lower. Of all adults, 55% agree with gay marriage.

From the millennials (1981 or later) 70% support gay marriage.

The numbers are higher for Europe, for instance in the Irish referendum, 62% of all adults agreed with gay marriage.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/marriage-referendum

I'm pretty sure I saw somewhere the numbers for Millenials in Europe touching 80% (it is 70% in the US at the moment as I said), but I cannot find that data. I will come back to that if it pleases you.

There is a division in views based on age, whereas its 70% acceptance in the US for the Millenials demographic, for the Silent Generation (1928-1945) it's only 39%.

Thanks.,btw I a.m. totally for gay marriage but totally against them adopting children.This is the data I was hoping to see.

[lkv]

Thanks.,btw I a.m. totally for gay marriage but totally against them adopting children.This is the data I was hoping to see.

It is true there is a difference in numbers on the gay adoption subject. In other words, not all people that agree with gay marriage also agree with gay adoption.

But that is also changing, an increasing number are readjusting their views on adoption as well. It will take some time, probably another 15-20 years. But the trend is there.

By the time Carmen gets older, those numbers will look different.

Will they be ideal? No. But I will restate again that it is my belief that one of the major reasons why she could get bullied as a teenager by other teenagers is: 1. teenagers bully anyone that is different by default (they bully fat kids, black kids, short kids), and 2. because of the education and so called values they get from certain parents or a homophobic environment.

Some people may be surprised that when their kids turn 15, they come to them and say "Daddy, what's wrong with you, why are you being homophobic?"

Edited April 12, 2016 by lkv

[uthaithanirules]

The hyprocrisy on this thread is amazing.

I have read that this girl is nothing more than "a womb for hire"

Utterly despicable language, what a way to refer to another human being.

Jeez, if I referred to the bargirls of Suk as nothing more than a XXXX for hire, I would be pulled up.

If I referred to the barboys of BoyzTown as nothing more than an XXX for hire I would be pulled up.

You are talking about this girl as if she is nothing more than an automaton, devoid of fellings and emotions.

I have had grown guys crying their hearts out in my office, because their girlfriend had an abortion, the same guys who had stated previously they never wanted children.

I have had women in my office asking for advice because they now found themselves pregnant.

Until any of us ever find ourselves in such a situation, none of us know how we will react..

We are talking about a human being here, lol, the irony of it all.

Not someone who is here to serve anyones political agenda, there are other forums on her for that.

Whats so funny about Peace Love & Understanding?

Talk about respect and acceptance, yet again the usual suspects hijack a thread to shove their own political agenda down our throats.

It pathetic.

Many are objecting to this becuase that woman is seen by foreigners as a womb for hire. Which is the most likely reason Tbailand has put a stop to it, changed the law.

Pointing that out load is hypocrisy?

Then you go on to talk about peace love and understanding?

Understanding would include undertsnading those that dont believe any impoverished woman from a poor country is free to make a financially uninfluenced choice

[lkv]

Let me clarify another confusion.

"We contacted the beautiful person who donated the egg that allowed us to have our little princess Carmen Sairak. The woman is so nice and sweet and the eye shape of her and Carmen resemble each other. She is a good woman who wants the best future for Carmen as possible and she know that that is for Carmen to be with the family that wanted her so badly. So the egg donor has agreed to help us by taking a DNA test. And the result is 99.99999998%"

Source: #bringcarmenhome

So the "mother" that we are all talking about here agreed under a contract to carry a child with no biological DNA connection to her.

Now you guys can call it whatever you want, I fail to see why some members think my statements are hypocritical.

Edited April 12, 2016 by lkv

[uthaithanirules]

Let me clarify another confusion.

"We contacted the beautiful person who donated the egg that allowed us to have our little princess Carmen Sairak. The woman is so nice and sweet and the eye shape of her and Carmen resemble each other. She is a good woman who wants the best future for Carmen as possible and she know that that is for Carmen to be with the family that wanted her so badly. So the egg donor has agreed to help us by taking a DNA test. And the result is 99.99999998%"

Source: #bringcarmenhome

So the "mother" that we are all talking about here agreed under a contract to carry a child with no biological DNA connection to her.

Now you guys can call it whatever you want, I fail to see why some members think my statements are hypocritical.

Its irrelevant in Thailand if there is no biological connection.

The birth mother is the legal mother until she gives up parental rights, thats the law.

Was before the surrogate laws changed, still is the law.

How many times do people have to tell you that?

[Sawan Chan 7]

Had anyone thought that there is a higher chance that the poor girl Will turn out gay as a result of having two gay parents.

[lkv]

Had anyone thought that there is a higher chance that the poor girl Will turn out gay as a result of having two gay parents.

Yeah, I'm sure many that haven't done their research have.

Edited April 13, 2016 by lkv

[lkv]

Let me clarify another confusion.

"We contacted the beautiful person who donated the egg that allowed us to have our little princess Carmen Sairak. The woman is so nice and sweet and the eye shape of her and Carmen resemble each other. She is a good woman who wants the best future for Carmen as possible and she know that that is for Carmen to be with the family that wanted her so badly. So the egg donor has agreed to help us by taking a DNA test. And the result is 99.99999998%"

Source: #bringcarmenhome

So the "mother" that we are all talking about here agreed under a contract to carry a child with no biological DNA connection to her.

Now you guys can call it whatever you want, I fail to see why some members think my statements are hypocritical.

Its irrelevant in Thailand if there is no biological connection.

The birth mother is the legal mother until she gives up parental rights, thats the law.

Was before the surrogate laws changed, still is the law.

How many times do people have to tell you that?

What are you talking about and what am I talking about?

Did I discuss the logic of laws in Thailand, which are illogical anyways? No.

I used the term "womb for rent", then some people started giving me soap opera examples with pregnant women in an office, I explained that this woman rented herself under a contract, point being she was aware what she was doing i.e. being inseminated with another woman's egg plus the male side of it and now you're talking about Thai laws, mother rights and the ongoing court case.

If they lose is maybe because they haven't payed the necessary tea money here and there, which is a common expected practice in Thailand, don't get me started on how laws function here.

Edited April 13, 2016 by lkv

[Orac]

Let me clarify another confusion.

"We contacted the beautiful person who donated the egg that allowed us to have our little princess Carmen Sairak. The woman is so nice and sweet and the eye shape of her and Carmen resemble each other. She is a good woman who wants the best future for Carmen as possible and she know that that is for Carmen to be with the family that wanted her so badly. So the egg donor has agreed to help us by taking a DNA test. And the result is 99.99999998%"

Source: #bringcarmenhome

So the "mother" that we are all talking about here agreed under a contract to carry a child with no biological DNA connection to her.

Now you guys can call it whatever you want, I fail to see why some members think my statements are hypocritical.

Its irrelevant in Thailand if there is no biological connection.

The birth mother is the legal mother until she gives up parental rights, thats the law.

Was before the surrogate laws changed, still is the law.

How many times do people have to tell you that?

What are you talking about and what am I talking about?

Did I discuss the logic of laws in Thailand, which are illogical anyways? No.

I used the term "womb for rent", then some people started giving me soap opera examples with pregnant women in an office, I explained that this woman rented herself under a contract, point being she was aware what she was doing ie being inseminated with another woman's egg, and now you're talking about Thai laws about mother rights and the ongoing court cases.

If they lose is maybe because they don't bribe the judge, don't get me started on how laws function in Thailand.

Thai justice functions very poorly which is why they chose Thailand to have this baby in the first place. There is a heavy reliance on achieving a negotiated settlement which can often be in contravention of applicable laws. The problem with this is that, should someone change their mind about something, then any agreements made can become null and void if the agreement itself can be shown to be illegal which, in this case, would not be difficult.

[lkv]

Well yeah but that's a totally different story. That's why in a previous post I said I am happy that they made it illegal, so that other people in the future won't waste 14 months in Thailand fighting court cases and endangering their jobs. You know, these parents actually need to go to work as well, to make money and support their family? Not hang around in Thailand.

[robertthebruce]

Had anyone thought that there is a higher chance that the poor girl Will turn out gay as a result of having two gay parents.

Please tell me your Joking ????

[Orac]

Well yeah but that's a totally different story. That's why in a previous post I said I am happy that they made it illegal, so that other people in the future won't waste 14 months in Thailand fighting court cases and endangering their jobs. You know, these parents actually need to go to work as well, to make money and support their family? Not hang around in Thailand.

Actually there is an argument here that they have actually legalised surrogacy with the new law but unfortunately, as a foreign couple, these two fall outside of what is now considered legal.

Previously Thai law only recognised the birth mother and, if unmarried, she would have sole custody so, under Thai law, giving up custody of a child in exchange for payment would be little more that selling babies.

It is heartbreaking what this couple and particularly baby Carmen are going through but the reason they came to Thailand to do this in the first place was because there was no surrogacy law in place to start with.

[lkv]

Well yeah but that's a totally different story. That's why in a previous post I said I am happy that they made it illegal, so that other people in the future won't waste 14 months in Thailand fighting court cases and endangering their jobs. You know, these parents actually need to go to work as well, to make money and support their family? Not hang around in Thailand.

Actually there is an argument here that they have actually legalised surrogacy with the new law but unfortunately, as a foreign couple, these two fall outside of what is now considered legal.

Previously Thai law only recognised the birth mother and, if unmarried, she would have sole custody so, under Thai law, giving up custody of a child in exchange for payment would be little more that selling babies.

It is heartbreaking what this couple and particularly baby Carmen are going through but the reason they came to Thailand to do this in the first place was because there was no surrogacy law in place to start with.

If they saw any of this coming they would have chosen another destination.

The reason they did not see this coming is because all the hospitals, all the clinics, and all the "mothers" did not have moral issues for the last 15 years or so.

It's a good example why business in general (any business) should not be conducted in Thailand.