Minor with dual nationality and expired Thai passport

[laolover88]

Sixteen year old with UK and Thai passports enters Thailand as normal on Thai passport.

Thai passport expires. Mother can not be found to secure new Thai passport.

Can the minor then leave Thailand to go to the UK on that expired Thai passport with valid UK passport?

On return to Thailand can the minor enter Thailand on an expired Thai passport?

Presumably the airline has no problem as she has a UK passport so could get an entry on arrival visa?

If she cannot enter on an expired Thai passport but enters on the UK passport is she then a tourist or an alien or what?

Presumably a Thai citizen cannot be an alien in Thailand?

Then when she wants to leave again?What?

Once she is 18 she can of course get her own Thai passport without parents.She has been told (don't know by whom) she can get a new Thai passport in the UK without mother being present but it appears the embassy are "not sure".

[Richard W]

Your effective nationality in Thailand is the nationality given by the passport on which you entered the country, at least as far as the Immigration Division is concerned. There is an exception for those naturalising as Thai - they become Thai on naturalising as Thai. One must exit Thailand using a current passport of one's effective nationality.

It seems that the only solution is to correct the entry records so that she will have entered on a British passport. It has been done in the recent past, though in that case the Thai passport expired before entry.

[highlander403]

as mrs highlander found out last year she was not allowed to leave on her expired thai passport had to get a new one at chaeng wattana, then wait 11 days

for a new flight home, she was told that no way could she either use expired one or brittish one to leave as she had entered on thai one.

[chilli42]

Suggest you speak to an immigration lawyer. You need to get a new Thai passport for the girl. She can not leave Thailand on an expired Thai passport or on a passport that was not used to enter the country. There will be a process, albeit excruciating, that will allow the girl to obtain a Thai passport without the mothers availability.

[samran]

- Can't leave on the expired Thai PP

- Can't leave on the UK passport as didn't enter Thailand on it.

- Child will need parents consent up until 20 years of age, not 18.

Knowing she can't find the mother to help on the Thai PP application, you have two options.

1) Enter on the British passport and get a one year extension of stay in Thailand in that passport based on also holding Thai nationality. Easily done.

2) Sort out sole custody of the child, evidence of which will allow for the remaining parent to sign for the Thai passport. Not being an expert in the getting of sole custody, you might not want to enter on the Thai PP until that is sorted.

[laolover88]

Thank you, so far!!

This is the ' official position"

http://www.mfa.go.th/main/en/services/1415/21479-Requirements-for-the-Ordinary-e-Passports-Applicat.html

However this requires, at a minimum, a notarised letter of consent from the "non-appearing"! party!

Have yet to find anything that relates to Passport Renewal. Concept appears not to exist. Have to get a new one every 5 years. Nor what to do if "non-appearing" parent totally non appears ! Mother and father were married in the UK, but he divorced her unilaterally on the basis of desertion, though neither the lawyers nor the court, even with trace agents, could find her, even knew her Thai ID, to sign anything!

[beerzy]

Speak to the Thailand passports centre and explain Mum cannot be found. due to her age there may be a provision for renewal.

[ubonjoe]

Thank you, so far!!

This is the ' official position"

http://www.mfa.go.th/main/en/services/1415/21479-Requirements-for-the-Ordinary-e-Passports-Applicat.html

However this requires, at a minimum, a notarised letter of consent from the "non-appearing"! party!

Have yet to find anything that relates to Passport Renewal. Concept appears not to exist. Have to get a new one every 5 years. Nor what to do if "non-appearing" parent totally non appears ! Mother and father were married in the UK, but he divorced her unilaterally on the basis of desertion, though neither the lawyers nor the court, even with trace agents, could find her, even knew her Thai ID, to sign anything!

If you have your divorce decree and the supporting document to prove she abandoned you and her child you should have them translated to Thai and have the translation certified by the MFA. Then go to an Amphoe to try and get sole custody of your child. Custody would allow you to be the sole parent of your child to get the passport.

[laolover88]

Thank you, so far!!

This is the ' official position"

http://www.mfa.go.th/main/en/services/1415/21479-Requirements-for-the-Ordinary-e-Passports-Applicat.html

However this requires, at a minimum, a notarised letter of consent from the "non-appearing"! party!

Have yet to find anything that relates to Passport Renewal. Concept appears not to exist. Have to get a new one every 5 years. Nor what to do if "non-appearing" parent totally non appears ! Mother and father were married in the UK, but he divorced her unilaterally on the basis of desertion, though neither the lawyers nor the court, even with trace agents, could find her, even knew her Thai ID, to sign anything!

If you have your divorce decree and the supporting document to prove she abandoned you and her child you should have them translated to Thai and have the translation certified by the MFA. Then go to an Amphoe to try and get sole custody of your child. Custody would allow you to be the sole parent of your child to get the passport.

That sounds sensible. He has the original of the divorce decree from the UK. Not sure what you mean by "the document to prove abandonment"? He deliberately did not apply for custody in the UK as that involves endless busibodies from social services. Nor did he apply for any division of assets on the basis that a UK court would not be in a position to adjudicate on Thai assets. When ubonjoe says "any amphoe" do you really mean that? Maybe the amphoe could actually find her? Do you think they could do that?They did build a house together, for which he naturally paid! He has just written that off. This is the same couple that the SCB lent 2m Baht to the wife without an income! he presumes the bank have possessed the house. Losing a house is one thing, losing a daughter another

[laolover88]

- Can't leave on the expired Thai PP

- Can't leave on the UK passport as didn't enter Thailand on it.

- Child will need parents consent up until 20 years of age, not 18.

Knowing she can't find the mother to help on the Thai PP application, you have two options.

1) Enter on the British passport and get a one year extension of stay in Thailand in that passport based on also holding Thai nationality. Easily done.

2) Sort out sole custody of the child, evidence of which will allow for the remaining parent to sign for the Thai passport. Not being an expert in the getting of sole custody, you might not want to enter on the Thai PP until that is sorted.

Child is in Thailand! So can't enter! But good advice, thanks.

[johnatong]

Thank you, so far!!

This is the ' official position"

http://www.mfa.go.th/main/en/services/1415/21479-Requirements-for-the-Ordinary-e-Passports-Applicat.html

However this requires, at a minimum, a notarised letter of consent from the "non-appearing"! party!

Have yet to find anything that relates to Passport Renewal. Concept appears not to exist. Have to get a new one every 5 years. Nor what to do if "non-appearing" parent totally non appears ! Mother and father were married in the UK, but he divorced her unilaterally on the basis of desertion, though neither the lawyers nor the court, even with trace agents, could find her, even knew her Thai ID, to sign anything!

If you have your divorce decree and the supporting document to prove she abandoned you and her child you should have them translated to Thai and have the translation certified by the MFA. Then go to an Amphoe to try and get sole custody of your child. Custody would allow you to be the sole parent of your child to get the passport.

That sounds sensible. He has the original of the divorce decree from the UK. Not sure what you mean by "the document to prove abandonment"? He deliberately did not apply for custody in the UK as that involves endless busibodies from social services. Nor did he apply for any division of assets on the basis that a UK court would not be in a position to adjudicate on Thai assets. When ubonjoe says "any amphoe" do you really mean that? Maybe the amphoe could actually find her? Do you think they could do that?They did build a house together, for which he naturally paid! He has just written that off. This is the same couple that the SCB lent 2m Baht to the wife without an income! he presumes the bank have possessed the house. Losing a house is one thing, losing a daughter another

There must be paperwork associated with the reason a divorce was sought.

In the UK there would be no reason/need for a father to apply for custody of his own child unless that custody was contested by the mother.

[Liquorice]

Something missing from this story.

As UJ states if he divorced on the grounds of desertion then the reason for divorce on the documents will state that.

If it was on the grounds of desertion, then the Father should have automatically been awarded sole custody through the Court.

Social services don't get involved, unless the Mother objected, but if as you say she couldn't be found, then straightforward.

Been there, done it many years ago.

However for any of those documents to be accepted in Thailand as legally binding, they would firstly have to be authenticated by the FCO in the UK, then legalised by the Thai Embassy in the UK. In Thailand they would have to be translated and legalised by the MFA before any Amphur would accept him as the sole responsible parent.

Edited April 2, 2016 by Faz

[laolover88]

Something missing from this story.

As UJ states if he divorced on the grounds of desertion then the reason for divorce on the documents will state that.

If it was on the grounds of desertion, then the Father should have automatically been awarded sole custody through the Court.

Social services don't get involved, unless the Mother objected, but if as you say she couldn't be found, then straightforward.

Been there, done it many years ago.

However for any of those documents to be accepted in Thailand as legally binding, they would firstly have to be authenticated by the FCO in the UK, then legalised by the Thai Embassy in the UK. In Thailand they would have to be translated and legalised by the MFA before any Amphur would accept him as the sole responsible parent.

Grounds for divorce award do not appear on UK Divorce certificates. UK courts operate a no fault/no blame policy. True the application for divorce must state a cause; but after that there is no record. Divorce was 6+ years ago. He was able to secure that from Thailand through UK lawyers, but I doubt that he could secure UK custody without a UK court appearance. Custody in the UK has become a minefield. The only issue is the passport. The mother was located for the last passport 5+years ago. I think your summary of the required process is otherwise right. Thank you

[laolover88]

The child was in the UK taking GCSEs. Now needs to go back for A levels. He has been the sole carer for 10 years. Slightly peculiar that a 16 year old Thai is 'trapped' in Thailand. Ubonjoe is right. He is the legal father, named on the Marriage Certificate and both the Thai Birth Certificate and the Confirmation from the UK Bangkok Embassy. So no further proofs of paternity etc required. The Thai Embassy in London were apparently "not helpful" and he thought it would be simpler to sort it out here! Probably wrong!

There are so many things for which an ID card is required. I presume?? it is possible to trace usage of a Thai ID card; but even if the Tabian Ban is required, also, it is also I guess impossible to locate a person?

[beerzy]

The child was in the UK taking GCSEs. Now needs to go back for A levels. He has been the sole carer for 10 years. Slightly peculiar that a 16 year old Thai is 'trapped' in Thailand. Ubonjoe is right. He is the legal father, named on the Marriage Certificate and both the Thai Birth Certificate and the Confirmation from the UK Bangkok Embassy. So no further proofs of paternity etc required. The Thai Embassy in London were apparently "not helpful" and he thought it would be simpler to sort it out here! Probably wrong!

There are so many things for which an ID card is required. I presume?? it is possible to trace usage of a Thai ID card; but even if the Tabian Ban is required, also, it is also I guess impossible to locate a person?

Ok guys,

simple case here nothing missing although he has not been given correct advice and needs to go to the immigration office. I think a 16 year old can get a new passport.

[laolover88]

The child was in the UK taking GCSEs. Now needs to go back for A levels. He has been the sole carer for 10 years. Slightly peculiar that a 16 year old Thai is 'trapped' in Thailand. Ubonjoe is right. He is the legal father, named on the Marriage Certificate and both the Thai Birth Certificate and the Confirmation from the UK Bangkok Embassy. So no further proofs of paternity etc required. The Thai Embassy in London were apparently "not helpful" and he thought it would be simpler to sort it out here! Probably wrong!

There are so many things for which an ID card is required. I presume?? it is possible to trace usage of a Thai ID card; but even if the Tabian Ban is required, also, it is also I guess impossible to locate a person?

Ok guys,

simple case here nothing missing although he has not been given correct advice and needs to go to the immigration office. I think a 16 year old can get a new passport.

Nothing to do with immigration, unless trying to leave on UK passport. Unless Are you saying immigration can wave the need to leave on the same passport as used for entry and can use a different passport? Need some evidence, here!

[Liquorice]

Something missing from this story.

As UJ states if he divorced on the grounds of desertion then the reason for divorce on the documents will state that.

If it was on the grounds of desertion, then the Father should have automatically been awarded sole custody through the Court.

Social services don't get involved, unless the Mother objected, but if as you say she couldn't be found, then straightforward.

Been there, done it many years ago.

However for any of those documents to be accepted in Thailand as legally binding, they would firstly have to be authenticated by the FCO in the UK, then legalised by the Thai Embassy in the UK. In Thailand they would have to be translated and legalised by the MFA before any Amphur would accept him as the sole responsible parent.

Grounds for divorce award do not appear on UK Divorce certificates. UK courts operate a no fault/no blame policy. True the application for divorce must state a cause; but after that there is no record. Divorce was 6+ years ago. He was able to secure that from Thailand through UK lawyers, but I doubt that he could secure UK custody without a UK court appearance. Custody in the UK has become a minefield. The only issue is the passport. The mother was located for the last passport 5+years ago. I think your summary of the required process is otherwise right. Thank you

As I stated, something missing from the story!

You stated your friend married in the UK, then divorced, but you didn't previously make it clear he divorced in Thailand.

In this situation you need to make an appointment with the Thai Family Court.

The daughter, being 16, is old enough to confirm the facts, plus there must be correspondence still around from the Lawyers to support the reason for divorce.

The Court can grant full custody to your friend, or alternatively give an order for the Passport office to issue her a new Passport as a Thai citizen, given that the whereabouts of the Mother is unknown.

If you know the Mothers ID number, her registered address on the Civil Register could be traced, but that still wouldn't guarantee she is living there.

Edited April 2, 2016 by Faz

[cyberfarang]

Simple answer. No matter from which countries people come from, they cannot travel abroad and re-enter their countries on expired passports.

[laolover88]

Something missing from this story.

As UJ states if he divorced on the grounds of desertion then the reason for divorce on the documents will state that.

If it was on the grounds of desertion, then the Father should have automatically been awarded sole custody through the Court.

Social services don't get involved, unless the Mother objected, but if as you say she couldn't be found, then straightforward.

Been there, done it many years ago.

However for any of those documents to be accepted in Thailand as legally binding, they would firstly have to be authenticated by the FCO in the UK, then legalised by the Thai Embassy in the UK. In Thailand they would have to be translated and legalised by the MFA before any Amphur would accept him as the sole responsible parent.

Grounds for divorce award do not appear on UK Divorce certificates. UK courts operate a no fault/no blame policy. True the application for divorce must state a cause; but after that there is no record. Divorce was 6+ years ago. He was able to secure that from Thailand through UK lawyers, but I doubt that he could secure UK custody without a UK court appearance. Custody in the UK has become a minefield. The only issue is the passport. The mother was located for the last passport 5+years ago. I think your summary of the required process is otherwise right. Thank you

As I stated, something missing from the story!

You stated your friend married in the UK, then divorced, but you didn't previously make it clear he divorced in Thailand.

In this situation you need to make an appointment with the Thai Family Court.

The daughter, being 16, is old enough to confirm the facts, plus there must be correspondence still around from the Lawyers to support the reason for divorce.

The Court can grant full custody to your friend, or alternatively give an order for the Passport office to issue her a new Passport as a Thai citizen, given that the whereabouts of the Mother is unknown.

If you know the Mothers ID number, her registered address on the Civil Register could be traced, but that still wouldn't guarantee she is living there.

Not come across The Civil Register. Is that สมัครสมาชิกโยธา Is the address on the Tabian Ban usually the same as that on the ID Card? Divorced in the UK.. His understanding was,correct or not, that while marriages are mutually recognised between Thailand and the UK you cannot terminate a UK marriage in Thailand, whether it is registered in Thailand or not? Also understood, again correct or not, that anyway you cannot terminate a marriage in Thailand without both parties being present? I think The Family Court with all documentation translated into Thai and notarised is probably the way forward. Hell of a rigmarole!

[Liquorice]

All Thais must be registered at an address. Those details are entered on the Civil Register and they are issued a Blue house book detailing their name, address and ID number. They can be registered at a family members address and appear on their house book, but in all events they must be registered somewhere.

Their ID card and House book should detail the same address, but many Thais only change these details as needs must.

If you know her ID number, then any Amphur can check the register to find her registered address. There is no guarantee she is still at that address though.

Where Countries mutually accept and recognise a marriage in one of the Countries, you can divorce in either and the divorce will also be legally recognised in the other Country, although legalisations and translations may be required.

You are correct that under normal circumstances both parties have to be present to divorce at an Amphur in Thailand. In your friends case though they didn't marry in Thailand but the UK. He would therefore need to go through a Thai Court to get an order recognising his legal divorce before any Amphur or government office is likely to help.

I am really surprised that his lawyers at the time of securing his divorce, did not apply for sole parental responsibility for the Father as the child was remaining in his care. I've been down this road and I was given sole parental responsibility without any hassle. It was automatic. He could check with his lawyers.

It may have been awarded without his knowledge.

Another avenue is for the daughter to approach the Thai Police in helping to trace the Mother. They can trace her ID number through a number of government departments to locate her address. The British Embassy is also another source for help as she is also a British citizen.

Forgive me for saying, but it was pretty irresponsible to allow a minor to travel and allow her Passport to expire.

Did neither think to check the expiry date before she left the UK. It's a rigmarole that your friend has created for himself.

[p_brownstone]

Simple answer. No matter from which countries people come from, they cannot travel abroad and re-enter their countries on expired passports.

Not quite correct.

Thailand (and I believe many, if not most countries) allow entry to their Citizens even with an expired passport.

Leaving any country on an expired passport is usually impossible.

Patrick

[laolover88]

All Thais must be registered at an address. Those details are entered on the Civil Register and they are issued a Blue house book detailing their name, address and ID number. They can be registered at a family members address and appear on their house book, but in all events they must be registered somewhere.

Their ID card and House book should detail the same address, but many Thais only change these details as needs must.

If you know her ID number, then any Amphur can check the register to find her registered address. There is no guarantee she is still at that address though.

Where Countries mutually accept and recognise a marriage in one of the Countries, you can divorce in either and the divorce will also be legally recognised in the other Country, although legalisations and translations may be required.

You are correct that under normal circumstances both parties have to be present to divorce at an Amphur in Thailand. In your friends case though they didn't marry in Thailand but the UK. He would therefore need to go through a Thai Court to get an order recognising his legal divorce before any Amphur or government office is likely to help.

I am really surprised that his lawyers at the time of securing his divorce, did not apply for sole parental responsibility for the Father as the child was remaining in his care. I've been down this road and I was given sole parental responsibility without any hassle. It was automatic. He could check with his lawyers.

It may have been awarded without his knowledge.

Another avenue is for the daughter to approach the Thai Police in helping to trace the Mother. They can trace her ID number through a number of government departments to locate her address. The British Embassy is also another source for help as she is also a British citizen.

Forgive me for saying, but it was pretty irresponsible to allow a minor to travel and allow her Passport to expire.

Did neither think to check the expiry date before she left the UK. It's a rigmarole that your friend has created for himself.

I partly agree. But appears the Thai Embassy in London told him when he was back in Thailand he could sort it out. Then ran up against the "need for appearance or notarised affirmation" of non appearing party. The official documentation is all there: ID/Tabian Ban just the mother not there and not been seen even by Granny. Is she even in Thailand. Mother had FLR for the UK but unless she is there that would have lapsed. I think, knowing what he knew the child should have re-entered Thailand on her UK passport as I understand minors cannot "overstay"?

Edited April 3, 2016 by theoldgit
Reply removed from within quote.

[Heng]

That's a pickle. But there is good reason why the rules are in place.

[Richard W]

This pickle sounds like another good reason for not getting an Anglo-Thai child resident in the UK a Thai passport! The hassle of changing the surname on marriage is yet another.

[laolover88]

Child has father's English surname! The Thai passport just avoids another set of visa issues! Been suggested that child goes to Laos on ID card..no passport required, "loses" ID card and permit and re-enters Thailand on UK passport. Bet that is illegal!! What would the Laos do with an illegal 16 year old farang immigrant?

[Richard W]

Child has father's English surname! The Thai passport just avoids another set of visa issues! Been suggested that child goes to Laos on ID card..no passport required, "loses" ID card and permit and re-enters Thailand on UK passport. Bet that is illegal!! What would the Laos do with an illegal 16 year old farang immigrant?

Deport her to the UK, with any luck!

If you're referring to the issue of changing surnames, it's the problem that the British Passport Office insists that people have the same name on all their passports. If she has her maiden name on her latest Thai passport, she won't be allowed to have her married name on a new British passport. Suppose Thailand adopted such a policy!

Edited April 3, 2016 by Richard W

[Liquorice]

All Thais must be registered at an address. Those details are entered on the Civil Register and they are issued a Blue house book detailing their name, address and ID number. They can be registered at a family members address and appear on their house book, but in all events they must be registered somewhere.

Their ID card and House book should detail the same address, but many Thais only change these details as needs must.

If you know her ID number, then any Amphur can check the register to find her registered address. There is no guarantee she is still at that address though.

Where Countries mutually accept and recognise a marriage in one of the Countries, you can divorce in either and the divorce will also be legally recognised in the other Country, although legalisations and translations may be required.

You are correct that under normal circumstances both parties have to be present to divorce at an Amphur in Thailand. In your friends case though they didn't marry in Thailand but the UK. He would therefore need to go through a Thai Court to get an order recognising his legal divorce before any Amphur or government office is likely to help.

I am really surprised that his lawyers at the time of securing his divorce, did not apply for sole parental responsibility for the Father as the child was remaining in his care. I've been down this road and I was given sole parental responsibility without any hassle. It was automatic. He could check with his lawyers.

It may have been awarded without his knowledge.

Another avenue is for the daughter to approach the Thai Police in helping to trace the Mother. They can trace her ID number through a number of government departments to locate her address. The British Embassy is also another source for help as she is also a British citizen.

Forgive me for saying, but it was pretty irresponsible to allow a minor to travel and allow her Passport to expire.

Did neither think to check the expiry date before she left the UK. It's a rigmarole that your friend has created for himself.

I partly agree. But appears the Thai Embassy in London told him when he was back in Thailand he could sort it out. Then ran up against the "need for appearance or notarised affirmation" of non appearing party. The official documentation is all there: ID/Tabian Ban just the mother not there and not been seen even by Granny. Is she even in Thailand. Mother had FLR for the UK but unless she is there that would have lapsed. I think, knowing what he knew the child should have re-entered Thailand on her UK passport as I understand minors cannot "overstay"?

He can sort it out in Thailand.

The Passport office rules dictate that both parents must be present.......unless there are mitigating circumstances why one cannot, such as deceased, in which case a death certificate would suffice as proof.

You cannot get a notarised affirmation from the Mother as you don't know her whereabouts.

Therefore the procedure is to take all the evidence and witnesses to a Thai Family Court and ask for an Order to allow the Passport office to issue a new Passport in the absence and unknown whereabouts of the Mother, in order that the child can return to her Father and resume her studies in the UK.

As Heng states, there is a reason rules are in place. The Passport office then has it's backside covered because it acted on a Court order should the Mother ever reappear and complain.

There not just going to take the word of Granny as proof of the situation.

Do you know how many ex SAS, Special Forces and CIA expats chose Thailand to retire ..............exactly!

[Liquorice]

Child has father's English surname! The Thai passport just avoids another set of visa issues! Been suggested that child goes to Laos on ID card..no passport required, "loses" ID card and permit and re-enters Thailand on UK passport. Bet that is illegal!! What would the Laos do with an illegal 16 year old farang immigrant?

Wouldn't work, same scenario.

How did she get into Lao, no entry stamp or Visa in UK passport.

Thai ID card, lost, send her to the nearest Thai Embassy in Lao to get an emergency document to re-enter Thailand.

Doesn't solve her Thai passport issue.

[misterfloppy]

I believe you should be able to apply for a new passport for the girl if you have photocopies of the Thai mother's ID and the blue book showing the address where the girl has her address registered. I am about to do exactly this for my thirteen-year-old daughter, though I will be taking copies (and originals) of my daughter's Thai birth certificate, showing me as the father, along with my UK passport. My wife recently had her Thai passport renewed here at the Chiangmai office where she said they didn't seem at all interested in the clutch of documents she had brought, with the original passport seeming to carry enough information to (most sensibly, I might suggest) enable a trouble free renewal. Though they claim it will take five days, the new passport duly arrived in the post just four days later!

My daughter will go through immigration for Thai nationals when we leave or return to the country, while I am a foreigner who must use a different channel. We will both use our UK passports through UK immigration.

Travelling into a country on one nationality passport, then out on another, is to be avoided since this will show up at immigration, and passage denied. My other daughter, whose Thai passport had expired, has had to come into Thailand on her UK passport, and do the 90-day reporting for, at one point, years, though, because of her status as a citizen, she hasn't had to go out of the country for visa renewal like us falangs. As far as I'm aware, she still uses her UK passport as she now spends three months here, then three months out of the country on a regular basis (because she has no wish to upset US immigration!). This unsatisfactory situation arose because the airline staff provided wrong advice, as we understand that she could have entered Thailand on the strength of her ID card alone - she could not have been denied entry as she is a Thai citizen, with the relevant document to prove it.

Hope this helps!