US military units to stay for South China Sea patrols

[LawrenceChee]

Old guyz need their glasses ...we were talking about the 80s and early exploitation by the openings ....

As the companies all got exposed , the condition improved and yes factories got better and old guyz being a consultant need to walk around a little more and see beyond what the factory owners are showing you ....and what we call first layer manufacturing for shows ...like world expo ?

Being a consultant does not mean you are always right ...they are hoodwinking you to write good reports ...if the factories are this perfect, why is the pollution index not decreasing enough ....is old guyz consultant getting too much attention from the female assistants that you are falling for one of the oldest tricks in business to think positive about China ...I know those slits in the cheongsam is distracting for everyone

This is one of those I am passionate about , closing factories down that are just sub par ..and reducing the pollution across the country by reducing the amount of factories making Low end items and moving those south

And yes luckily you were in Canton where you finally meet some open minded Chinese ....receptive or mild curiosity ?

I don't think you found any numb nuts there who believe in yanks are bad

Good that old guyz finally met some positive people instead of the usual mix of nut bags ...this is the first positive post you made about China in a Long while ...wow ! Maybe I should visit Manila more seeing this is a lucky day

I am thinking yes you should visit more often and I will ask them to pile on the shows for you ...this forum could actually turn you around ? Gasp

Morning folks !

Edited April 27, 2016 by LawrenceChee

[keemapoot]

^@ Pub, <deleted>, you're one of the enemy now? This is the first time I've heard you talk of being a businessman. Canton fair? Brings back memories of my first visits to China more than 30 years ago, when I knew jack-all about China business, and about the last time I visited that fair.

I'm afraid some of us are going to have to reassess your qualifications to opine about China in light of this new development.

[keemapoot]

Old guyz need their glasses ...we were talking about the 80s and early exploitation by the openings ....

As the companies all got exposed , the condition improved and yes factories got better and old guyz being a consultant need to walk around a little more and see beyond what the factory owners are showing you ....and what we call first layer manufacturing for shows ...like world expo ?

Being a consultant does not mean you are always right ...they are hoodwinking you to write good reports ...if the factories are this perfect, why is the pollution index not decreasing enough ....is old guyz consultant getting too much attention from the female assistants that you are falling for one of the oldest tricks in business to think positive about China ...I know those slits in the cheongsam is distracting for everyone

This is one of those I am passionate about , closing factories down that are just sub par ..and reducing the pollution across the country by reducing the amount of factories making Low end items and moving those south

And yes luckily you were in Canton where you finally meet some open minded Chinese ....receptive or mild curiosity ?

I don't think you found any numb nuts there who believe in yanks are bad

Good that old guyz finally met some positive people instead of the usual mix of nut bags ...this is the first positive post you made about China in a Long while ...wow ! Maybe I should visit Manila more seeing this is a lucky day

I am thinking yes you should visit more often and I will ask them to pile on the shows for you ...this forum could actually turn you around ? Gasp

Morning folks !

Yeah, we're getting off topic discussing factories in China now, but we could devote a whole thread to that. Famous stories like Foxconn, who make Apple's iphones; and the amazing stories of how Huawei stole everything from Cisco and got away with it because the Chinese government said sue us and never do business in China again; and the stories about guys like China's richest man, Jack Ma, who I used to co-host conferences with when he was relatively unknown outside HK/China would be fun.

But, yes, good to see members spreading their wings, moderating positions of patriotism, and realizing the greater mutual and global strategic interests at stake.

* and Pub, welcome to the fight where more than one party wins.

Edited April 27, 2016 by keemapoot

[Publicus]

CCP keeps promising to pronounce an Air Defense Identification Zone in the SCS. Strictly speaking, anyone flying in a country's ADIZ must request and receive permission or risk being shot out of the sky.

Many countries have one or more ADIZs to include USA which has a lot of total border on land and at sea that have heavy traffic. However, the ADIZs of USA and other countries are over territory off the coast that do in fact belong to the particular country. If CCP goes ahead to try an ADIZ over the SCS or any part of it, it will be another act of aggression against its neighbors and the region.

US says it will not recognize South China Sea exclusion zone

The United States has told China it will not recognize an exclusion zone in the South China Sea and would view such a move as "destabilizing," U.S. Deputy Secretary of Defense Robert Work said on Wednesday.

U.S. officials have expressed concern that an international court ruling expected in the coming weeks on a case brought by the Philippines against China over its South China Sea claims could prompt Beijing to declare an air defense identification zone, or ADIZ, in the region, as it did in the East China Sea in 2013.

Work told an event hosted by the Washington Post that the United States would not recognize such an exclusion zone in the South China Sea, just as it did not recognize the one China established in the East China Sea.

http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/world/us-says-it-will-not-recog/2650240.html?cx_tag=similar&cid=tg:recos:similar:standard#cxrecs_s

In 2013 CCP suddenly and surprise pronounced an ADIZ over the disputed Senkaku islands of Japan that are also near Taiwan, to include up north and some South Korean islands. It was during a series of confrontations at sea and in the air between Beijing and Tokyo. So US flew a couple of nuclear capable but unarmed B-52s through the zone within a few days of Beijing's declaration of it. Then air force fighters from USA, Japan, South Korea started flying together through the new ADIZ a couple of times a week. The three continue to fly through the swiss cheese ADIZ of the CCP, sometimes singularly, sometimes jointly, other times the three together. CCP's ADIZ there is a joke.

CCP has thus far stayed away from Scarborough Shoal which CCP seized from the Phils in 2012, mostly because it is the single strategic island group of the SCS so cranking things up there would be the most provocative assertion CCP could make. The whole region is waiting for The Hague to announce its ILOS decision around June if not before, because it's expected CCP will have to do something to confirm it rejects international law.

Let's see how negatively creative CCP Dictators can be. So much of this SCS aggression of the past 16 months especially and in particular reveals how the PLA has gained powerful influence in Beijing since Xi Jinping came to power. The US and Japan stood 'em down in the East Sea which got awfully quiet after the ADIZ thingy there. So then suddenly came all of this Beijing nonsense in the SCS.

There's no question the US has worked through all of the claims and possible scenarios of the CCP Dictators in their maritime adventures and exploits. To quote SecDef Ashton Carter last month in Manila, "There is no question that there are consequences for these actions," Carter said. "We have plans in all three of these categories. You'll see them unfolding."

And we'll very likely see CCP fold again, this time in the SCS, same as CCP folded in the East Sea disputes against Japan. CCP might be starting to recognise they're making a lot of enemies throughout the region. In fact, almost everyone.

[LawrenceChee]

You might be surprised P at what the Chinese can spring out

The art of negotiations is to keep all cards close to your heart while drumming issues for the west for focus on

If you been to Canton where the best businessman all are ( a little biased seeing these are my ancestor grounds and we have been around for a while)

You know observing those guys they alway have a trick in their sleeves they don't share ...they don't believe in HBR and case studies ...last time I tried in my clan house , I got a beating (verbally) for suggesting ....

The ADIZ is a good front keeps your military busy thinking and remember the Chinese want no fights ...they won't start it so they are thinking in their heads what will finally push it and brig it closest to that edge and not overdo it

Not much different from how Apple keeps selling you a new experience and keep the profits high ...they are testing the markets to see what's the max price point while maxing the profits

Same as what China is doing in the SCS...they are seeing what hat the neighbors can tolerate to the max and stop right at that line while focusing on trade to keep everyone happy

I know there are people who would disagree , as Long as there is no military action or civilian death , I am not against any of these plans ...they are a sound way to navigate for a giant economy thinking for its own first

Edited April 28, 2016 by LawrenceChee

[keemapoot]

CCP keeps promising to pronounce an Air Defense Identification Zone in the SCS. Strictly speaking, anyone flying in a country's ADIZ must request and receive permission or risk being shot out of the sky.

Many countries have one or more ADIZs to include USA which has a lot of total border on land and at sea that have heavy traffic. However, the ADIZs of USA and other countries are over territory off the coast that do in fact belong to the particular country. If CCP goes ahead to try an ADIZ over the SCS or any part of it, it will be another act of aggression against its neighbors and the region.

US says it will not recognize South China Sea exclusion zone

The United States has told China it will not recognize an exclusion zone in the South China Sea and would view such a move as "destabilizing," U.S. Deputy Secretary of Defense Robert Work said on Wednesday.

U.S. officials have expressed concern that an international court ruling expected in the coming weeks on a case brought by the Philippines against China over its South China Sea claims could prompt Beijing to declare an air defense identification zone, or ADIZ, in the region, as it did in the East China Sea in 2013.

Work told an event hosted by the Washington Post that the United States would not recognize such an exclusion zone in the South China Sea, just as it did not recognize the one China established in the East China Sea.

http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/world/us-says-it-will-not-recog/2650240.html?cx_tag=similar&cid=tg:recos:similar:standard#cxrecs_s

In 2013 CCP suddenly and surprise pronounced an ADIZ over the disputed Senkaku islands of Japan that are also near Taiwan, to include up north and some South Korean islands. It was during a series of confrontations at sea and in the air between Beijing and Tokyo. So US flew a couple of nuclear capable but unarmed B-52s through the zone within a few days of Beijing's declaration of it. Then air force fighters from USA, Japan, South Korea started flying together through the new ADIZ a couple of times a week. The three continue to fly through the swiss cheese ADIZ of the CCP, sometimes singularly, sometimes jointly, other times the three together. CCP's ADIZ there is a joke.

CCP has thus far stayed away from Scarborough Shoal which CCP seized from the Phils in 2012, mostly because it is the single strategic island group of the SCS so cranking things up there would be the most provocative assertion CCP could make. The whole region is waiting for The Hague to announce its ILOS decision around June if not before, because it's expected CCP will have to do something to confirm it rejects international law.

Let's see how negatively creative CCP Dictators can be. So much of this SCS aggression of the past 16 months especially and in particular reveals how the PLA has gained powerful influence in Beijing since Xi Jinping came to power. The US and Japan stood 'em down in the East Sea which got awfully quiet after the ADIZ thingy there. So then suddenly came all of this Beijing nonsense in the SCS.

There's no question the US has worked through all of the claims and possible scenarios of the CCP Dictators in their maritime adventures and exploits. To quote SecDef Ashton Carter last month in Manila, "There is no question that there are consequences for these actions," Carter said. "We have plans in all three of these categories. You'll see them unfolding."

And we'll very likely see CCP fold again, this time in the SCS, same as CCP folded in the East Sea disputes against Japan. CCP might be starting to recognise they're making a lot of enemies throughout the region. In fact, almost everyone.

You've raised two important points.

First, this idea of a ADIZ zone in the SCS is yet another clear infringement of international law. One of the most complex international public law concepts is law of space. But, basically, every country 'owns' and controls the 'air and space' directly above it. That means if you own land territory, you can control the air space, and also start to define safe zones surrounding that air space, and have the authority of recognized international law to back that up.

The true space wars in the future are now being fought in outer space and who owns that, but that is another topic.

China's possible assertion of ownership over the SCS based on ownership of air on top of it's property is an impossible case to make, and building fake islands on top of reefs does not change that much. But, it is a start. There is no ownership of airspace over disputed maritime areas. And, for sure, this ambition should be checked by the international community.

2nd, Let's not start patting ourselves on our backs just yet about this potential Hague ruling. Its holding may be narrow, and its legal relevance to countries other than Philippines and China may be merely tangential.

[boomerangutang]

Russia was found to be putting plastic red flags on the sea floor leading up to the Arctic - asserting it's territorial claims.

....and there's the moon and Antarctica, both of which have international treaties restricting their ownership. But what are treaties, except bits of paper with some writing on them? China will only adhere to what it chooses to adhere to. It isn't bound by the wishes of members of the Mekong River Association, it can also do what it wants on the Salween River (except if pesky little Burma gets in the way). China can sail in and built up islands on rocks off the Philippine coast, give them Chinese names, and call them its sovereign territory. At least when it captured Tibet, it allowed the name to be kept, sort of; (The Autonomous Region of Tibet). That's kind of you, Beijing bosses.

I don't want to give Beijing bosses any ideas, but what if we wake up one morning and find China is building islands in the Pacific and Indian oceans. It's known there are sea mounts in all oceans. Some are relatively close to median sea level. What's to stop China from sending large dredging ships (and ships with millions of tons of cement) from building up those mounts to form islands. They're in international waters, but when China gets a foothold there, it can give it a Chinese name and claim it as part of their nation. ....along with all the territorial claims to surrounding waters and sky above, and mineral/fishing rights.

There's the Bowie Seamount which is 24 meters below sea level. It's located 180 Km west of British Columbia, Canada. It would not be difficult to build a tower 32 meters tall and spacious enough to land a few helicopters. Then proceed to terraform an island........ A total of 9,951 seamounts and 283 guyots (former islands which have been eroded to just below sea level), covering a total area of 8,796,150 km2 have been mapped. Over 4% of the North Pacific is comprised of seamounts. MAP

Too outlandish? 25 years ago, what's now happening at the Spratlys would have been considered too outlandish.

[AYJAYDEE]

Russia was found to be putting plastic red flags on the sea floor leading up to the Arctic - asserting it's territorial claims.

....and there's the moon and Antarctica, both of which have international treaties restricting their ownership. But what are treaties, except bits of paper with some writing on them? China will only adhere to what it chooses to adhere to. It isn't bound by the wishes of members of the Mekong River Association, it can also do what it wants on the Salween River (except if pesky little Burma gets in the way). China can sail in and built up islands on rocks off the Philippine coast, give them Chinese names, and call them its sovereign territory. At least when it captured Tibet, it allowed the name to be kept, sort of; (The Autonomous Region of Tibet). That's kind of you, Beijing bosses.

I don't want to give Beijing bosses any ideas, but what if we wake up one morning and find China is building islands in the Pacific and Indian oceans. It's known there are sea mounts in all oceans. Some are relatively close to median sea level. What's to stop China from sending large dredging ships (and ships with millions of tons of cement) from building up those mounts to form islands. They're in international waters, but when China gets a foothold there, it can give it a Chinese name and claim it as part of their nation. ....along with all the territorial claims to surrounding waters and sky above, and mineral/fishing rights.

There's the Bowie Seamount which is 24 meters below sea level. It's located 180 Km west of British Columbia, Canada. It would not be difficult to build a tower 32 meters tall and spacious enough to land a few helicopters. Then proceed to terraform an island........ A total of 9,951 seamounts and 283 guyots (former islands which have been eroded to just below sea level), covering a total area of 8,796,150 km2 have been mapped. Over 4% of the North Pacific is comprised of seamounts. MAP

Too outlandish? 25 years ago, what's now happening at the Spratlys would have been considered too outlandish.

thats inside canada's exclusive economic zone

[boomerangutang]

I've now become fixated on seamounts. Here's a detailed topo map which shows colorful detail of many seamounts and guyots. BTW, the Spratlys are 5 times closer to the Philippine mainland than to Hainan, China. The Pacific basin is amazing in its subsurface patterns. There are straight line features which stretch for over 1,200 miles, some of which intersected by other straight lines. I hope Chinese manipulators aren't looking at maps like that, salivating while thinking of the many territory grabs still available. Actually, any country could partake in territory graps on that scale. Not saying they'd necessarily be successful. But what if Iceland or Burundi for example, chose to commandeer a seamount or two, and proceeded to terraform islands? They'd have to do it Chinese-style, which is; as clandestine as possible, not telling anyone what they're doing, because they'd know it was contentious. later, when the int'l community got apprised of the monkey business, the offending countries could just say, as China does, "Well, you're too late. We've already built a dock, an airstrip and gun emplacements. What are you going to do about it? Bomb us?"

[boomerangutang]

Russia was found to be putting plastic red flags on the sea floor leading up to the Arctic - asserting it's territorial claims.

....and there's the moon and Antarctica, both of which have international treaties restricting their ownership. But what are treaties, except bits of paper with some writing on them? China will only adhere to what it chooses to adhere to. It isn't bound by the wishes of members of the Mekong River Association, it can also do what it wants on the Salween River (except if pesky little Burma gets in the way). China can sail in and built up islands on rocks off the Philippine coast, give them Chinese names, and call them its sovereign territory. At least when it captured Tibet, it allowed the name to be kept, sort of; (The Autonomous Region of Tibet). That's kind of you, Beijing bosses.

I don't want to give Beijing bosses any ideas, but what if we wake up one morning and find China is building islands in the Pacific and Indian oceans. It's known there are sea mounts in all oceans. Some are relatively close to median sea level. What's to stop China from sending large dredging ships (and ships with millions of tons of cement) from building up those mounts to form islands. They're in international waters, but when China gets a foothold there, it can give it a Chinese name and claim it as part of their nation. ....along with all the territorial claims to surrounding waters and sky above, and mineral/fishing rights.

There's the Bowie Seamount which is 24 meters below sea level. It's located 180 Km west of British Columbia, Canada. It would not be difficult to build a tower 32 meters tall and spacious enough to land a few helicopters. Then proceed to terraform an island........ A total of 9,951 seamounts and 283 guyots (former islands which have been eroded to just below sea level), covering a total area of 8,796,150 km2 have been mapped. Over 4% of the North Pacific is comprised of seamounts. MAP

Too outlandish? 25 years ago, what's now happening at the Spratlys would have been considered too outlandish.

thats inside canada's exclusive economic zone

Maybe it is, according to Canada. But maybe not, according to the Chinese. And China has a bigger military than Canada. So what's Canada going to do, start firing missiles?

I'm glad you responded like you did, AYJAYDEE, because it puts new perspective on the OP. Besides the fact that the Spratly Islands lie inside Phil's economic zone (much closer than Bowie is to Canada), it shows how Chinese do things clandestinely. They're like thieves in the night. One moment, there's a seamount on a map, the next moment there are Chinese ships and planes making daily visits, along with Chinese flags flying, and guns/missiles pointing out at any non-Chinese ships/planes.

When the victims find out what's happening, they usually go to seek findings from int'l courts, and go courting friends (like the US) for support. All that takes time. Time is what the Chinese like to stretch out, because that allows more time for the Chinese to dredge sand, pour concrete, ship in troops and weapons. That's why the Chines are always saying, "No problem. You wanna talk about it? Sure, let's sit down and talk. But only one country at a time, and definitely, no international tribunals or UN interference. Let's talk long time. You wan fortune cookie with your tea?"

Edited April 28, 2016 by boomerangutang

[AYJAYDEE]

Russia was found to be putting plastic red flags on the sea floor leading up to the Arctic - asserting it's territorial claims.

....and there's the moon and Antarctica, both of which have international treaties restricting their ownership. But what are treaties, except bits of paper with some writing on them? China will only adhere to what it chooses to adhere to. It isn't bound by the wishes of members of the Mekong River Association, it can also do what it wants on the Salween River (except if pesky little Burma gets in the way). China can sail in and built up islands on rocks off the Philippine coast, give them Chinese names, and call them its sovereign territory. At least when it captured Tibet, it allowed the name to be kept, sort of; (The Autonomous Region of Tibet). That's kind of you, Beijing bosses.

I don't want to give Beijing bosses any ideas, but what if we wake up one morning and find China is building islands in the Pacific and Indian oceans. It's known there are sea mounts in all oceans. Some are relatively close to median sea level. What's to stop China from sending large dredging ships (and ships with millions of tons of cement) from building up those mounts to form islands. They're in international waters, but when China gets a foothold there, it can give it a Chinese name and claim it as part of their nation. ....along with all the territorial claims to surrounding waters and sky above, and mineral/fishing rights.

There's the Bowie Seamount which is 24 meters below sea level. It's located 180 Km west of British Columbia, Canada. It would not be difficult to build a tower 32 meters tall and spacious enough to land a few helicopters. Then proceed to terraform an island........ A total of 9,951 seamounts and 283 guyots (former islands which have been eroded to just below sea level), covering a total area of 8,796,150 km2 have been mapped. Over 4% of the North Pacific is comprised of seamounts. MAP

Too outlandish? 25 years ago, what's now happening at the Spratlys would have been considered too outlandish.

thats inside canada's exclusive economic zone

Maybe it is, according to Canada. But maybe not, according to the Chinese. And China has a bigger military than Canada. So what's Canada going to do, start firing missiles?

you dont know what youre talking about.it is according to United nations Conventions and treaties.

[boomerangutang]

AYJAYDEE opines, " you dont know what youre talking about.it is according to United nations Conventions and treaties. "

It's precisely those types of conventions and treaties which China is flouting - and why this spirited discussion is happening.

China wants to abide only by treaties which suit it. That's why China is not attending or having any input to international discussions. It knows it's breaking laws. China is like a rapist who, when neighbors show up to complain in his front yard, won't come out to face his accusers. China thinks that by avoiding international interaction, it will be able to keep on grabbing territories. And the crazy part is, ......it's been successful! If it's worked thus far, why not keep doing it?!

That's why I mentioned other places where China may go to grab yet more territory. It never announces where it's going beforehand, so it's incumbent upon concerned nations to try and ascertain where it may go next, and perhaps preempt China taking more territories. Will it go to Central Pacific? ....to south Pacific region? ....to north Pacific? .....to Laos? .....Sikkim? ....Burundi? Maldives? ......or elsewhere? The alternative is to sit back and do nothing, like Thailand does, and just let China push its weight around wherever it pleases.

[keemapoot]

I've now become fixated on seamounts. Here's a detailed topo map which shows colorful detail of many seamounts and guyots. BTW, the Spratlys are 5 times closer to the Philippine mainland than to Hainan, China. The Pacific basin is amazing in its subsurface patterns. There are straight line features which stretch for over 1,200 miles, some of which intersected by other straight lines. I hope Chinese manipulators aren't looking at maps like that, salivating while thinking of the many territory grabs still available. Actually, any country could partake in territory graps on that scale. Not saying they'd necessarily be successful. But what if Iceland or Burundi for example, chose to commandeer a seamount or two, and proceeded to terraform islands? They'd have to do it Chinese-style, which is; as clandestine as possible, not telling anyone what they're doing, because they'd know it was contentious. later, when the int'l community got apprised of the monkey business, the offending countries could just say, as China does, "Well, you're too late. We've already built a dock, an airstrip and gun emplacements. What are you going to do about it? Bomb us?"

I don't know anything about the engineering aspects of this, but I lived in Hong Kong for many years and watched in wonder as I crossed on the Star Ferry daily what seemed to me as miraculous reclamation projects where over the years they created additional land out of Victoria Harbour. They created landmass, and built skyscrapers on top of what was once sea.

It appears you are studying this further and maybe there are some civil engineers or land reclamation engineers on here who can tell us the challenges in this, but it is possible to create land where once only water stood. I wouldn't put anything past good engineers. I have worked with them my whole life.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_and_Wan_Chai_Reclamation

[Publicus]

Old guyz need their glasses ...we were talking about the 80s and early exploitation by the openings ....

As the companies all got exposed , the condition improved and yes factories got better and old guyz being a consultant need to walk around a little more and see beyond what the factory owners are showing you ....and what we call first layer manufacturing for shows ...like world expo ?

Being a consultant does not mean you are always right ...they are hoodwinking you to write good reports ...if the factories are this perfect, why is the pollution index not decreasing enough ....is old guyz consultant getting too much attention from the female assistants that you are falling for one of the oldest tricks in business to think positive about China ...I know those slits in the cheongsam is distracting for everyone

This is one of those I am passionate about , closing factories down that are just sub par ..and reducing the pollution across the country by reducing the amount of factories making Low end items and moving those south

And yes luckily you were in Canton where you finally meet some open minded Chinese ....receptive or mild curiosity ?

I don't think you found any numb nuts there who believe in yanks are bad

Good that old guyz finally met some positive people instead of the usual mix of nut bags ...this is the first positive post you made about China in a Long while ...wow ! Maybe I should visit Manila more seeing this is a lucky day

I am thinking yes you should visit more often and I will ask them to pile on the shows for you ...this forum could actually turn you around ? Gasp

Morning folks !

..we were talking about the 80s and early exploitation by the openings ....

Too late to turn on your backup lights Lawrence. You got busted by my post which is rooted in eyeballing and on-site physical experience.

Being a consultant does not mean you are always right ...they are hoodwinking you to write good reports

Don't write reports...simply made a casual post here which is the most I ever do about it. I'd said in my post I operate in Guangdong province, from Shenzhen/Hong Kong out to Shantou (which as you know is at the Taiwan Strait). I've certainly been to other parts of the CCP China but not inside factories in those other areas or regions. My general knowledge of factories in CCP China in general says to blow 'em up and start again. And to pay the proletarians enough so they can buy the products they make. Capitalist owners in CCP only take take take, so now there's nothing left whether it's the environment from the ground up or the communities themselves that are no better off today than they were 30 years ago. Certainly once one gets outside a place such as Shenzhen.

One of the owners of a company in the all privately-owned industrial group that subscribes to my consultancy is a 30-ish Chinese from up North, around Dalian, who got a business degree from U of Toronto and took Canadian citizenship. He met his Chinese wife studying also in Toronto and took over the Guangdong business from the wife's father. Each of 'em are Canadian citizens so they have to do a visa run every 180 dayze. Their two sons were born in Hong Kong. The couple's renovated factory buildings, grounds, to include reconstructed offices inside old buildings are the example of how to do it. I egg 'em on given they utilise me more than any other owners of the group (along with two other owners in particular). He drives a Jag and after another five or so years (and millions more) they're gone to Canada for good. CCP loses again...in fact quite a lot lately.

Speaking of sneaky, US revealed yesterday it has been conducting previously unannounced freedom on navigation exercises in SCS. There are two announced sea exercises, and regular recon flights to include by Australia. But US hadn't ever said it had conducted unannounced FONOPS. Pentagon didn't say how many or when, or when unannounced Ops started -- no statement either than the unannounced Ops are temporary, or that they will end, or of how they would end.

US btw always is the side that announces a FONOP whenever it occurs and whenever it suits 'em. CCP owned and controlled media never have announced an Operation. They don't like to present the people of the People's Republic with bad news, such as yet another USN FON exercise.

Here's yet another one just to remind CCP of how any new Air Defense Identification Zone over the SCS will look like the same swiss cheese ADIZ they announced in the East Sea against Japan in 2013. We've been flying through that ADIZ freely and at will without any contact by CCP. This is the same CCP that when they announced the East Sea ADIZ said sever consequences would result if anyone violated it by failing to obtain permission to enter the Zone.

US did publicise that six USN planes flew over the Scarborough Shoal twice, April 19 and again April 21st. They are newly based in the Philippines. Four are the A-10 "Warthog" fighter and two are long range troop helicopters. The Warthog is used for close in support of ground forces in active combat, so CCP might want to stew for a while about that move on the game board.

Youse guyz over on that side push and bluster but when someone sticks a bayonet under your nose you start to sing America the Beautiful. Then youse come back to push some more. Scarborough Shoal is the real big question that has come forward now that the Tribunal is ready to announce its findings no later than the end of June, perhaps sometime next month. Nobody knows for sure exactly what the Tribunal will say, but everyone knows where it is going on this ruling. Beijing especially knows cause it's been ramping up its hostility toward the Court.

President Obama made a statement the other day too and it might also have something to do with the pending ruling by the international court. As reported in the Hindustan Times of India:

Obama accuses China of child-like behaviour over South China Sea

Yashwant Raj, Hindustan Times, Bethesda, Maryland | Updated: Apr 27, 2016 13:50 IST

US President Barack Obama has said China has tended to behave as “the biggest kids around here” in its maritime disputes with other nations over the South China Sea.

In an interview recorded during his just-concluded tour of Germany, and aired Tuesday morning, Obama said that “with respect to the South China Sea, rather than operate under international norms and rules, their (China’s) attitude is, ‘We’re the biggest kids around here. And we’re gonna push aside the Philippines or the Vietnamese’”.

The president, who has eight more months left in office, was scathing in his criticism of China over a dispute that has been a cause of some tension between the two countries. And it won’t go unnoticed in Beijing, which is ever so prickly about real and perceived slights.

New Delhi will be tuning in too on this, as an occasional target of China’s kids-like behavior over the South China Sea, where tensions have risen over seven man-made islands built by Beijing in the Spratly Islands

http://www.hindustantimes.com/world/obama-accuses-china-of-child-like-behavior-over-south-china-sea/story-VTMXUgxJOxTRPLMfCffPhN.html

No one should doubt that President Obama has (long since) exhausted his patience with CCP Boyz in Beijing.

[Publicus]

Old guyz need their glasses ...we were talking about the 80s and early exploitation by the openings ....

As the companies all got exposed , the condition improved and yes factories got better and old guyz being a consultant need to walk around a little more and see beyond what the factory owners are showing you ....and what we call first layer manufacturing for shows ...like world expo ?

Being a consultant does not mean you are always right ...they are hoodwinking you to write good reports ...if the factories are this perfect, why is the pollution index not decreasing enough ....is old guyz consultant getting too much attention from the female assistants that you are falling for one of the oldest tricks in business to think positive about China ...I know those slits in the cheongsam is distracting for everyone

This is one of those I am passionate about , closing factories down that are just sub par ..and reducing the pollution across the country by reducing the amount of factories making Low end items and moving those south

And yes luckily you were in Canton where you finally meet some open minded Chinese ....receptive or mild curiosity ?

I don't think you found any numb nuts there who believe in yanks are bad

Good that old guyz finally met some positive people instead of the usual mix of nut bags ...this is the first positive post you made about China in a Long while ...wow ! Maybe I should visit Manila more seeing this is a lucky day

I am thinking yes you should visit more often and I will ask them to pile on the shows for you ...this forum could actually turn you around ? Gasp

Morning folks !

Yeah, we're getting off topic discussing factories in China now, but we could devote a whole thread to that. Famous stories like Foxconn, who make Apple's iphones; and the amazing stories of how Huawei stole everything from Cisco and got away with it because the Chinese government said sue us and never do business in China again; and the stories about guys like China's richest man, Jack Ma, who I used to co-host conferences with when he was relatively unknown outside HK/China would be fun.

But, yes, good to see members spreading their wings, moderating positions of patriotism, and realizing the greater mutual and global strategic interests at stake.

* and Pub, welcome to the fight where more than one party wins.

You have your own mind about others which causes you to assign people to boxes and compartments that to you are nice neat and clear. For example, your method is that, 'this one is a patriot from the cold war, while over here we have a sophisticated Chinese CCP...it's always the way, isn't it' .

Further, your mindset is sort of like, 'this is A, and this is B, while over here we have C...and all of these things are clear and simple and they are always the same'.

FYI, CCP are dictators, a new dynasty of emperors in business suits. Many of us have learned from history what dictators are and what they do; how they operate.

What we see in the SCS is a CCP maritine colonialism that the region to include Asean reject. CCP are the side in this making all the enemies, not Asean or Japan or the USA or Australia or India....

You've been around here a long time making bucks with these people while some of us have been around too, in my instance since 1996.

[LawrenceChee]

Old guyz need their glasses ...we were talking about the 80s and early exploitation by the openings ....

As the companies all got exposed , the condition improved and yes factories got better and old guyz being a consultant need to walk around a little more and see beyond what the factory owners are showing you ....and what we call first layer manufacturing for shows ...like world expo ?

Being a consultant does not mean you are always right ...they are hoodwinking you to write good reports ...if the factories are this perfect, why is the pollution index not decreasing enough ....is old guyz consultant getting too much attention from the female assistants that you are falling for one of the oldest tricks in business to think positive about China ...I know those slits in the cheongsam is distracting for everyone

This is one of those I am passionate about , closing factories down that are just sub par ..and reducing the pollution across the country by reducing the amount of factories making Low end items and moving those south

And yes luckily you were in Canton where you finally meet some open minded Chinese ....receptive or mild curiosity ?

I don't think you found any numb nuts there who believe in yanks are bad

Good that old guyz finally met some positive people instead of the usual mix of nut bags ...this is the first positive post you made about China in a Long while ...wow ! Maybe I should visit Manila more seeing this is a lucky day

I am thinking yes you should visit more often and I will ask them to pile on the shows for you ...this forum could actually turn you around ? Gasp

Morning folks !

Yeah, we're getting off topic discussing factories in China now, but we could devote a whole thread to that. Famous stories like Foxconn, who make Apple's iphones; and the amazing stories of how Huawei stole everything from Cisco and got away with it because the Chinese government said sue us and never do business in China again; and the stories about guys like China's richest man, Jack Ma, who I used to co-host conferences with when he was relatively unknown outside HK/China would be fun.

But, yes, good to see members spreading their wings, moderating positions of patriotism, and realizing the greater mutual and global strategic interests at stake.

* and Pub, welcome to the fight where more than one party wins.

You have your own mind about others which causes you to assign people to boxes and compartments that to you are nice neat and clear. For example, your method is that, 'this one is a patriot from the cold war, while over here we have a sophisticated Chinese CCP...it's always the way, isn't it' .

Further, your mindset is sort of like, 'this is A, and this is B, while over here we have C...and all of these things are clear and simple and they are always the same'.

FYI, CCP are dictators, a new dynasty of emperors in business suits. Many of us have learned from history what dictators are and what they do; how they operate.

What we see in the SCS is a CCP maritine colonialism that the region to include Asean reject. CCP are the side in this making all the enemies, not Asean or Japan or the USA or Australia or India....

You've been around here a long time making bucks with these people while some of us have been around too, in my instance since 1996.

Now I have to wonder if I can understand the above P ...don't get too flustered ?

Dictator is getting a bit tired of CCP Boyz ...time to put on your thinking cap and come up with another name for the sake of the forum !

[Publicus]

Old guyz need their glasses ...we were talking about the 80s and early exploitation by the openings ....

As the companies all got exposed , the condition improved and yes factories got better and old guyz being a consultant need to walk around a little more and see beyond what the factory owners are showing you ....and what we call first layer manufacturing for shows ...like world expo ?

Being a consultant does not mean you are always right ...they are hoodwinking you to write good reports ...if the factories are this perfect, why is the pollution index not decreasing enough ....is old guyz consultant getting too much attention from the female assistants that you are falling for one of the oldest tricks in business to think positive about China ...I know those slits in the cheongsam is distracting for everyone

This is one of those I am passionate about , closing factories down that are just sub par ..and reducing the pollution across the country by reducing the amount of factories making Low end items and moving those south

And yes luckily you were in Canton where you finally meet some open minded Chinese ....receptive or mild curiosity ?

I don't think you found any numb nuts there who believe in yanks are bad

Good that old guyz finally met some positive people instead of the usual mix of nut bags ...this is the first positive post you made about China in a Long while ...wow ! Maybe I should visit Manila more seeing this is a lucky day

I am thinking yes you should visit more often and I will ask them to pile on the shows for you ...this forum could actually turn you around ? Gasp

Morning folks !

Yeah, we're getting off topic discussing factories in China now, but we could devote a whole thread to that. Famous stories like Foxconn, who make Apple's iphones; and the amazing stories of how Huawei stole everything from Cisco and got away with it because the Chinese government said sue us and never do business in China again; and the stories about guys like China's richest man, Jack Ma, who I used to co-host conferences with when he was relatively unknown outside HK/China would be fun.

But, yes, good to see members spreading their wings, moderating positions of patriotism, and realizing the greater mutual and global strategic interests at stake.

* and Pub, welcome to the fight where more than one party wins.

You have your own mind about others which causes you to assign people to boxes and compartments that to you are nice neat and clear. For example, your method is that, 'this one is a patriot from the cold war, while over here we have a sophisticated Chinese CCP...it's always the way, isn't it' .

Further, your mindset is sort of like, 'this is A, and this is B, while over here we have C...and all of these things are clear and simple and they are always the same'.

FYI, CCP are dictators, a new dynasty of emperors in business suits. Many of us have learned from history what dictators are and what they do; how they operate.

What we see in the SCS is a CCP maritine colonialism that the region to include Asean reject. CCP are the side in this making all the enemies, not Asean or Japan or the USA or Australia or India....

You've been around here a long time making bucks with these people while some of us have been around too, in my instance since 1996.

Now I have to wonder if I can understand the above P ...don't get too flustered ?

Dictator is getting a bit tired of CCP Boyz ...time to put on your thinking cap and come up with another name for the sake of the forum !

[boomerangutang]

I've now become fixated on seamounts. Here's a detailed topo map which shows colorful detail of many seamounts and guyots. BTW, the Spratlys are 5 times closer to the Philippine mainland than to Hainan, China. The Pacific basin is amazing in its subsurface patterns. There are straight line features which stretch for over 1,200 miles, some of which intersected by other straight lines. I hope Chinese manipulators aren't looking at maps like that, salivating while thinking of the many territory grabs still available. Actually, any country could partake in territory graps on that scale. Not saying they'd necessarily be successful. But what if Iceland or Burundi for example, chose to commandeer a seamount or two, and proceeded to terraform islands? They'd have to do it Chinese-style, which is; as clandestine as possible, not telling anyone what they're doing, because they'd know it was contentious. later, when the int'l community got apprised of the monkey business, the offending countries could just say, as China does, "Well, you're too late. We've already built a dock, an airstrip and gun emplacements. What are you going to do about it? Bomb us?"

I don't know anything about the engineering aspects of this, but I lived in Hong Kong for many years and watched in wonder as I crossed on the Star Ferry daily what seemed to me as miraculous reclamation projects where over the years they created additional land out of Victoria Harbour. They created landmass, and built skyscrapers on top of what was once sea.

It appears you are studying this further and maybe there are some civil engineers or land reclamation engineers on here who can tell us the challenges in this, but it is possible to create land where once only water stood. I wouldn't put anything past good engineers. I have worked with them my whole life.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_and_Wan_Chai_Reclamation

I'm a bit of an enginner. Have been a contractor and carpenter since Woodstock. You mention "create land where once only water stood" but I think you understand there are places where land is just under the water. Some places, it shows at low tide, other places it never shows above the water line, but it's plainly close to the surface.

The Aztecs took over a marshy island in the middle of a large shallow lake. Even before the Europeans arrived, Aztecs were terraforming and expanding the landmass many fold. They even built large stone structures. To prevent pyramids sinking into the mud, they pounded hundreds of long logs vertically into the mud - to build upon. Similar methods are used for bridges/piers nowadays, and similar could be employed for raising a stout platform from a seamount. It would have to have its platform above storm surge wave level. Large oil drilling platforms have used variations on that method. Sometimes they sit on a giant steel tube, but more often the platform is built with four stout legs anchored by very large concrete piers. Anchored cables are also useful.

Building a large platform and/or terraforming over a seamount near the surface would not be particularly challenging from an engineering standpoint.

[keemapoot]

I've now become fixated on seamounts. Here's a detailed topo map which shows colorful detail of many seamounts and guyots. BTW, the Spratlys are 5 times closer to the Philippine mainland than to Hainan, China. The Pacific basin is amazing in its subsurface patterns. There are straight line features which stretch for over 1,200 miles, some of which intersected by other straight lines. I hope Chinese manipulators aren't looking at maps like that, salivating while thinking of the many territory grabs still available. Actually, any country could partake in territory graps on that scale. Not saying they'd necessarily be successful. But what if Iceland or Burundi for example, chose to commandeer a seamount or two, and proceeded to terraform islands? They'd have to do it Chinese-style, which is; as clandestine as possible, not telling anyone what they're doing, because they'd know it was contentious. later, when the int'l community got apprised of the monkey business, the offending countries could just say, as China does, "Well, you're too late. We've already built a dock, an airstrip and gun emplacements. What are you going to do about it? Bomb us?"

I don't know anything about the engineering aspects of this, but I lived in Hong Kong for many years and watched in wonder as I crossed on the Star Ferry daily what seemed to me as miraculous reclamation projects where over the years they created additional land out of Victoria Harbour. They created landmass, and built skyscrapers on top of what was once sea.

It appears you are studying this further and maybe there are some civil engineers or land reclamation engineers on here who can tell us the challenges in this, but it is possible to create land where once only water stood. I wouldn't put anything past good engineers. I have worked with them my whole life.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_and_Wan_Chai_Reclamation

I'm a bit of an enginner. Have been a contractor and carpenter since Woodstock. You mention "create land where once only water stood" but I think you understand there are places where land is just under the water. Some places, it shows at low tide, other places it never shows above the water line, but it's plainly close to the surface.

The Aztecs took over a marshy island in the middle of a large shallow lake. Even before the Europeans arrived, Aztecs were terraforming and expanding the landmass many fold. They even built large stone structures. To prevent pyramids sinking into the mud, they pounded hundreds of long logs vertically into the mud - to build upon. Similar methods are used for bridges/piers nowadays, and similar could be employed for raising a stout platform from a seamount. It would have to have its platform above storm surge wave level. Large oil drilling platforms have used variations on that method. Sometimes they sit on a giant steel tube, but more often the platform is built with four stout legs anchored by very large concrete piers. Anchored cables are also useful.

Building a large platform and/or terraforming over a seamount near the surface would not be particularly challenging from an engineering standpoint.

Yeah, I do generally understand platforms and have been on a large offshore oil platform before, but what is most interesting to me is the idea you can make new terra firma landmass where none stood before, and I do understand that needs to be done atop a shallow portion or perhaps atop a coral reef.

The reason that's interesting is that once you have 'terra firma' you can then start establishing rights based in international law by occupying that land, and then claim space rights above that 'land,' as well as various maritime rights; and of course, mineral drilling rights below that landmass or in various deep angles that emanate from that landmass.

Platforms confer fewer rights of permanency and therefore may not hold up in international legal disputes.

Again, just musing and perhaps this is what the Chinese are doing.

BTW, did you help build the stages at THE Woodstock Festival? Did you get to attend see any of those legendary acts?

Edited April 28, 2016 by keemapoot

[boomerangutang]

BTW, did you help build the stages at THE Woodstock Festival? Did you get to attend see any of those legendary acts?

No, but I did just finish my 2nd novel, and it takes place at Woodstock during the festival, 1969. I can't tout it here because it's against the rules, but if interested, PM me, and I'll send added info about it.

Me and my friend Paul were all ready to drive up the from Wash. D.C. We had already been to several giant R&R festivals that year. His VW Bug broke down, so we didn't make it. We were bummed.

Edited April 28, 2016 by Scott

[AYJAYDEE]

AYJAYDEE opines, " you dont know what youre talking about.it is according to United nations Conventions and treaties. "

It's precisely those types of conventions and treaties which China is flouting - and why this spirited discussion is happening.

China wants to abide only by treaties which suit it. That's why China is not attending or having any input to international discussions. It knows it's breaking laws. China is like a rapist who, when neighbors show up to complain in his front yard, won't come out to face his accusers. China thinks that by avoiding international interaction, it will be able to keep on grabbing territories. And the crazy part is, ......it's been successful! If it's worked thus far, why not keep doing it?!

That's why I mentioned other places where China may go to grab yet more territory. It never announces where it's going beforehand, so it's incumbent upon concerned nations to try and ascertain where it may go next, and perhaps preempt China taking more territories. Will it go to Central Pacific? ....to south Pacific region? ....to north Pacific? .....to Laos? .....Sikkim? ....Burundi? Maldives? ......or elsewhere? The alternative is to sit back and do nothing, like Thailand does, and just let China push its weight around wherever it pleases.

well duh! any country can invade any other country as history has shown us. Israel is doing it on the west bank right now. America does it in the northwest passage. the un was set up to minimize this unfortunate fact and it often works but there is no guarantee. if another country wants to do anything about it, you could very well have war. not exactly a revelation.

[Scott]

A post which violates Fair Use policy has been removed. Please limit any quoted text to three sentences and a link to the source.

[tonbridgebrit]

Ronald McDonald, you are in Thailand, and I have no problems with you and your burgers in Thailand and anywhere else on planet earth.
Actually, I do like your chicken McNuggets and them Big Macs.

But Sir, don't you think, your boss (Barack Obama) firing a few missiles at whatever Chinese islands is NOT good for world peace ?

[boomerangutang]

It is the Chinese who are militarizing the islands it has taken over. Not USA.

The US can sit back and do nothing, and let the territory grabs and militarizations continue, or it can talk with leaders down there in that region to decide what best to do.

Do you advocate the US do nothing? .....which is essence allows China to continue doing what it's doing, on and on. None of us on this thread know how far China will go. When will they be sated? Every time they're asked, they say things like, "Don't worry. Everything is fine. We don't want confrontation. If you want to discuss it, fine, let's sit down and talk about it. When? Oh, maybe in six months. Let me look at my calendar. Ummm, not sure. Oh, how about 19 months from now, would that be alright? Just make sure, when we meet, you don't bring any pesky law experts. They complicate the issue. We want to keep things chummy and simple, don't we."

[AYJAYDEE]

It is the Chinese who are militarizing the islands it has taken over. Not USA.

The US can sit back and do nothing, and let the territory grabs and militarizations continue, or it can talk with leaders down there in that region to decide what best to do.

Do you advocate the US do nothing? .....which is essence allows China to continue doing what it's doing, on and on. None of us on this thread know how far China will go. When will they be sated? Every time they're asked, they say things like, "Don't worry. Everything is fine. We don't want confrontation. If you want to discuss it, fine, let's sit down and talk about it. When? Oh, maybe in six months. Let me look at my calendar. Ummm, not sure. Oh, how about 19 months from now, would that be alright? Just make sure, when we meet, you don't bring any pesky law experts. They complicate the issue. We want to keep things chummy and simple, don't we."

okay, rather than do nothing, what do you suggest they do?

[boomerangutang]

It is the Chinese who are militarizing the islands it has taken over. Not USA.

The US can sit back and do nothing, and let the territory grabs and militarizations continue, or it can talk with leaders down there in that region to decide what best to do.

Do you advocate the US do nothing? .....which is essence allows China to continue doing what it's doing, on and on. None of us on this thread know how far China will go. When will they be sated? Every time they're asked, they say things like, "Don't worry. Everything is fine. We don't want confrontation. If you want to discuss it, fine, let's sit down and talk about it. When? Oh, maybe in six months. Let me look at my calendar. Ummm, not sure. Oh, how about 19 months from now, would that be alright? Just make sure, when we meet, you don't bring any pesky law experts. They complicate the issue. We want to keep things chummy and simple, don't we."

okay, rather than do nothing, what do you suggest they do?

I'm behind US doing what it's currently doing. It's talking with leaders of concerned countries: Phil, VN, probably also Malaysia, Brunei, Australia, Papua, Indonesia, et. al. The US and the world are waiting for official findings from the UN and other int'l tribunals. Findings, btw, which China says it won't abide by, as it already knows the findings will prove China is acting illegally.

As for next steps, I've already articulated in many posts, and letters to newspapers. My positions are clear, even though I'm just an observer/commentator. I hold not one modicum of power in this debate. I don't even own a rowboat that might venture out to the vicinity of the contested islands.

[AYJAYDEE]

It is the Chinese who are militarizing the islands it has taken over. Not USA.

The US can sit back and do nothing, and let the territory grabs and militarizations continue, or it can talk with leaders down there in that region to decide what best to do.

Do you advocate the US do nothing? .....which is essence allows China to continue doing what it's doing, on and on. None of us on this thread know how far China will go. When will they be sated? Every time they're asked, they say things like, "Don't worry. Everything is fine. We don't want confrontation. If you want to discuss it, fine, let's sit down and talk about it. When? Oh, maybe in six months. Let me look at my calendar. Ummm, not sure. Oh, how about 19 months from now, would that be alright? Just make sure, when we meet, you don't bring any pesky law experts. They complicate the issue. We want to keep things chummy and simple, don't we."

okay, rather than do nothing, what do you suggest they do?

I'm behind US doing what it's currently doing. It's talking with leaders of concerned countries: Phil, VN, probably also Malaysia, Brunei, Australia, Papua, Indonesia, et. al. The US and the world are waiting for official findings from the UN and other int'l tribunals. Findings, btw, which China says it won't abide by, as it already knows the findings will prove China is acting illegally.

As for next steps, I've already articulated in many posts, and letters to newspapers. My positions are clear, even though I'm just an observer/commentator. I hold not one modicum of power in this debate. I don't even own a rowboat that might venture out to the vicinity of the contested islands.

talk is cheap, what do you propose they DO

[boomerangutang]

It is the Chinese who are militarizing the islands it has taken over. Not USA.

The US can sit back and do nothing, and let the territory grabs and militarizations continue, or it can talk with leaders down there in that region to decide what best to do.

Do you advocate the US do nothing? .....which is essence allows China to continue doing what it's doing, on and on. None of us on this thread know how far China will go. When will they be sated? Every time they're asked, they say things like, "Don't worry. Everything is fine. We don't want confrontation. If you want to discuss it, fine, let's sit down and talk about it. When? Oh, maybe in six months. Let me look at my calendar. Ummm, not sure. Oh, how about 19 months from now, would that be alright? Just make sure, when we meet, you don't bring any pesky law experts. They complicate the issue. We want to keep things chummy and simple, don't we."

okay, rather than do nothing, what do you suggest they do?

I'm behind US doing what it's currently doing. It's talking with leaders of concerned countries: Phil, VN, probably also Malaysia, Brunei, Australia, Papua, Indonesia, et. al. The US and the world are waiting for official findings from the UN and other int'l tribunals. Findings, btw, which China says it won't abide by, as it already knows the findings will prove China is acting illegally.

As for next steps, I've already articulated in many posts, and letters to newspapers. My positions are clear, even though I'm just an observer/commentator. I hold not one modicum of power in this debate. I don't even own a rowboat that might venture out to the vicinity of the contested islands.

talk is cheap, what do you propose they DO

You're very annoying to try to converse with. I wrote what I recommend for now, and in 20 prior posts, I've written what I propose for follow-ups, and it's not just talk. If you're trying to get me to say something, articulate what you want. You're like a thick punk with a stick who keeps poking it at another person - trying to get them to say what you want them to say.

If you've got something to say, say it. I know I shouldn't stoop to your primitive level, but you're annoying.

[Publicus]

CCP Dictators in Beijing have decided to also divide and conquer Asean, which reflects the Dictators great disappointment over the failure of their "ripe fruit" strategy of the past 20 years to try to subdue and subjugate Asean. CCP

Dictators had long ago figured they could fatten up Asean countries with money and big bucks corruption projects. CCP had expected the return would be that Asean member states and as a grouping would give CCP a free pass on its long planned design to take complete control of the South China Sea. Turns out most of Asean says no dice. So the consequence as far as CCP Dictators are concerned is no more Asean.

The CCP sinister design and plan will not succeed however.

China criticised for apparent attempt to divide Asean

Beijing came in for criticism by veteran diplomats yesterday at a conference in Jakarta, for its apparent move to split Asean over the territorial claims in the South China Sea.

The speakers at the event had strong words for the Chinese, whose Foreign Minister Wang Yi on Saturday announced a four-point consensus with Brunei, Cambodia and Laos on the issue.

"Having (the Chinese) Foreign Minister announce that two of non- claimant states, namely Cambodia and Laos, have decided that they are not going to do this and that, seems to me like interfering in the domestic affairs of Asean," said the former Asean secretary-general

http://www.straitstimes.com/asia/china-criticised-for-apparent-attempt-to-divide-asean

I point out that Ambassador-at-Large Ong Keng Yong of Singapore said the statement from Beijing is meddling in the internal affairs of Asean....

South China Sea tensions to dominate Sino-Asean talks in Singapore

Just weeks before an international court ruling on territorial disputes over the sea, senior diplomats from China and 10 nations from the Association of Southeast Asian nations (Asean) will meet in Singapore – an event that will mark the 25th anniversary of the start of the Sino-Asean dialogue.

However, Beijing’s move has been criticised by several Asean diplomats, who accused China of meddling in Asean’s internal affairs and trying to divide the grouping, according to Singapore’s The Straits Times.

An Asean diplomat said of the meeting on the bid to have a code of conduct: “Not much can be expected out of this. Progress will be achieved at a glacial pace as China will try and manipulate Asean into acquiescence of its stance.”

http://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy-defence/article/1938930/south-china-sea-tensions-dominate-sino-asean-talks

China risks damaging international reputation if it rejects tribunal ruling on South China Sea disputes, US warns

The ruling is widely expected to favor the Philippines and risks significantly raising regional tensions because China, although a signatory of the U.N. Convention on the Law of the Sea under which the case is being heard, rejects the court's authority to hear it.

China risks "terrible" damage to its reputation if it ignores an impending international court ruling on the South China Sea, the United States said on Thursday, while urging Southeast Asian countries to rally behind the court decision.

U.S. Deputy Secretary of State Antony Blinken told a House of Representatives hearing China "can't have it both ways," by being a party to the convention but rejecting its provisions, including "the binding nature of any arbitration decision."

http://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy-defence/article/1938930/south-china-sea-tensions-dominate-sino-asean-talks

China's dangerous divide-and-conquer game against Asean

China’s “divide-and-conquer” tactic is a dangerous game, the grave outcome of which will be a weakened ASEAN, where the ten member states are more susceptible not only to Chinese influence, but also that of the extra-regional powers.

A united and strong ASEAN that can uphold its centrality will ensure that South-east Asia remains an open, inclusive and stable region that embraces China alongside other important external partners in the effort for collective security and economic growth.

It may be counterproductive for China to challenge ASEAN centrality, but even more importantly, ASEAN member states must realise there is little to gain from breaking ranks.

http://www.todayonline.com/world/asia/chinas-dangerous-divide-and-conquer-game-asean

Edited April 29, 2016 by Publicus

[boomerangutang]

It's interesting to see which ASEAN countries glob behind China. Laos is a given, because it's Communist. Cambodia is also no surprise because of dictator Hun Sen (who also happens to be bosom buddies with Thaksin. Two peas in a pod). Burma is becoming more democratic and more independently minded. In recent years, it's been able to say 'no thanks' to some large Chinese projects on Burmese soil. That's something that Thais could not do. For anything China suggest be done in Thailand; Thai leaders (elected or non-elected) will immediately smile and say "Of course. Thank you for suggesting that. You are so wise and nice." ASEAN countries which border the increasingly tense (soon-to-be-conflict) SCS region are obviously displeased with China's bully behavior. I'm surprised about Brunei. Did they get a pay-off? The country run by a non-elected family which relishes caning people for minor offenses. Hmmm.