Biden: 'Overwhelming frustration' with Israeli govt

[dexterm]

@dexterm

You were claiming that you could have written Biden's speech, now turns out you mean cherry picked bits of the speech. Quite a difference there. First the enthusiastic "hear, hear, Joe", and now "obliged....to appease AIPAC" (never mind that the venue was J Street). Doesn't strike me as the most consistent or honest bit of posting.

And on we go - hyperbole extrapolations "based" on posting a link which does not directly support your claims. As said earlier, the only one bringing up ethnic cleansing is you. And your only motivation in doing so is demonizing. "And if they wont go?" is not answered by "ethnic cleansing", and notably, you ignore the very same question when applied to Israeli Jews. I suppose Egypt and Jordan's actual annexation of Palestinian territories was "ethnic cleansing" as well, then?

For someone who self admitted lack of familiarity with Palestinian attitudes, you sure do have strong opinions on what their negotiation positions and moves will be like. There may, or may not, be a peace agreement which will satisfy some (not all, never) of the Palestinians, but I seriously doubt this would have much effect on your position. Can always claim that the Palestinians were coerced or tricked as you did on this topic and others. If the Palestinians will not accept a solution which incorporates painful concessions and compromises (which might not be in line with your version of just and viable) things will indeed grow worse. But seeing as this is a two way street, thing will not improve for the Palestinians as well. Granted, this eventuality does pose much of an issue for some ideological keyboard warriors.

Netanyahu and Israel's right wing politicians are what they are. Positions are well known. Implying that this represents the whole range of Israeli political spectrum is nonsense. Presenting it without the context of the Palestinians own intransigence (actually referred to in by Biden and ignored by yourself) is simply dishonest propaganda. Same goes for quoting views of Israeli right wing politicians without reference to similar (and worse) attitudes expressed by various Palestinian leaders.

""There is at the moment no political will that I observed from either Israelis or Palestinians to go forward with serious negotiations," Biden said."

1st paragraph. Nitpicking pedantry. You are troll baiting.

2nd paragraph. Israel demonizes itself. We only get a fraction of the full story from the odd news article on this forum. Suggest readers view Maan News. Israel is ethnically cleansing already on a daily basis evicting Palestinians from their homes to expand Jewish only colonies.

3rd paragraph. Why is it the Palestinians who must accept painful concessions and compromises? They have conceded enough. Why not the European colonizers? They are the invaders who have stolen Palestinian land?

As I have said in the past: if the majority of Palestinians find any peace deal acceptable, who am I to disagree? Pure demonizing fantasy on your part to presume to know how I would react.

4th paragraph. The OP read Biden: 'Overwhelming frustration' with Israeli govt. If he feels obliged to attack Palestinians, up2him. I will not do Israel's dirty work for it.

Pointing out the contradictions evident in your posts is not nitpicking, nor troll baiting. My point there is that you contentiously attempt to present any bit related to the conflict as support for your views. This is often done at the price of accuracy, consistency and honesty.

There's a gap between Israeli actions, views of Israeli politicians, Israeli attitudes and the hyperbole versions you present. The links provided do not quite support your fear and hate mongering statements.Maan is far from being an objective source, nor a very reliable one (at least two demonstrated instances on this forum come to mind). And on again with the contradictions - claiming both ethnic cleansing and assured demographic victory.

It was not claimed that only the Palestinians would need to accept painful concessions and compromises. This is something required of both sides in order for the conflict to achieve resolution. The simplistic view presented earlier, under which the Palestinians will reject any offer not to their liking is not how negotiations go. That your seem to think that under any future agreement there will not be any Palestinian obligations, or that they will get all their wishes, is an illusion. The same goes for the Israeli side. Never claimed otherwise. Negotiations are a two way street, and both sides will have to face that, eventually.

The majority of the Palestinians will not be consulted, hence your statement is bogus. There was no referendum with regard to previous agreements, and some were accepted or denounced by non-elected leaderships. Hiding behind the "majority of Palestinians" allows for different figures (if including the Arab citizens of Israel and/or Palestinians living in other countries). Even the current representation of the "majority of Palestinians" in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip amounts to a dubious proposition. All that without there being an agreed upon mechanism in place (legal and operational) to conduct such inquiries.

In my opinion, you will have objections to any peace agreement no incorporating the eventual eradication of Israel as a home for the Jewish people. This is based on view expressed earlier on this topic and previous ones. As said, I do not see your views as pro-Palestinian per se, in that they seem to be focused less on solving the conflict through pragmatic realistic compromise, but rather opt for idealistic victories, regardless of cost.

Quoting the headline while ignoring the content of the OP itself is yet another instance of the posting practices denounced previously. Thanks for making my point.

You seem to be strangely and obsessively fixated on how I ought to address the OP. You also again display your amazing mind reading skills to know how I would react to any peace deal.

I can't help you with either of those two issues.

I think it's your very verbose way of saying you disagree with me.

IMO there is only one strong fully equipped army in this conflict, and only one country that has made the choice in its greed for more land to occupy another people. There is only one bully.

As such Israel has the power to resolve this conflict. They seem to be doing the opposite. That is what is frustrating Biden.

I believe a two state solution is the only one in which Israel can preserve a Jewish majority and a state with a Jewish character for the next 50 years say. I don't like racist/religionist supremacism per se so I do hope Israel eventually becomes a secular fully democratic state. But if neighbors are living at peace and Israel is treating its Palestinian population with respect and as completely equal citizens without any discriminatory laws and practises, all well and good

Unless you want to introduce some new material and still remain on topic, I think I have expressed all the points I wanted to make.

[Morch]

@dexterm

You were claiming that you could have written Biden's speech, now turns out you mean cherry picked bits of the speech. Quite a difference there. First the enthusiastic "hear, hear, Joe", and now "obliged....to appease AIPAC" (never mind that the venue was J Street). Doesn't strike me as the most consistent or honest bit of posting.

And on we go - hyperbole extrapolations "based" on posting a link which does not directly support your claims. As said earlier, the only one bringing up ethnic cleansing is you. And your only motivation in doing so is demonizing. "And if they wont go?" is not answered by "ethnic cleansing", and notably, you ignore the very same question when applied to Israeli Jews. I suppose Egypt and Jordan's actual annexation of Palestinian territories was "ethnic cleansing" as well, then?

For someone who self admitted lack of familiarity with Palestinian attitudes, you sure do have strong opinions on what their negotiation positions and moves will be like. There may, or may not, be a peace agreement which will satisfy some (not all, never) of the Palestinians, but I seriously doubt this would have much effect on your position. Can always claim that the Palestinians were coerced or tricked as you did on this topic and others. If the Palestinians will not accept a solution which incorporates painful concessions and compromises (which might not be in line with your version of just and viable) things will indeed grow worse. But seeing as this is a two way street, thing will not improve for the Palestinians as well. Granted, this eventuality does pose much of an issue for some ideological keyboard warriors.

Netanyahu and Israel's right wing politicians are what they are. Positions are well known. Implying that this represents the whole range of Israeli political spectrum is nonsense. Presenting it without the context of the Palestinians own intransigence (actually referred to in by Biden and ignored by yourself) is simply dishonest propaganda. Same goes for quoting views of Israeli right wing politicians without reference to similar (and worse) attitudes expressed by various Palestinian leaders.

""There is at the moment no political will that I observed from either Israelis or Palestinians to go forward with serious negotiations," Biden said."

1st paragraph. Nitpicking pedantry. You are troll baiting.

2nd paragraph. Israel demonizes itself. We only get a fraction of the full story from the odd news article on this forum. Suggest readers view Maan News. Israel is ethnically cleansing already on a daily basis evicting Palestinians from their homes to expand Jewish only colonies.

3rd paragraph. Why is it the Palestinians who must accept painful concessions and compromises? They have conceded enough. Why not the European colonizers? They are the invaders who have stolen Palestinian land?

As I have said in the past: if the majority of Palestinians find any peace deal acceptable, who am I to disagree? Pure demonizing fantasy on your part to presume to know how I would react.

4th paragraph. The OP read Biden: 'Overwhelming frustration' with Israeli govt. If he feels obliged to attack Palestinians, up2him. I will not do Israel's dirty work for it.

Pointing out the contradictions evident in your posts is not nitpicking, nor troll baiting. My point there is that you contentiously attempt to present any bit related to the conflict as support for your views. This is often done at the price of accuracy, consistency and honesty.

There's a gap between Israeli actions, views of Israeli politicians, Israeli attitudes and the hyperbole versions you present. The links provided do not quite support your fear and hate mongering statements.Maan is far from being an objective source, nor a very reliable one (at least two demonstrated instances on this forum come to mind). And on again with the contradictions - claiming both ethnic cleansing and assured demographic victory.

It was not claimed that only the Palestinians would need to accept painful concessions and compromises. This is something required of both sides in order for the conflict to achieve resolution. The simplistic view presented earlier, under which the Palestinians will reject any offer not to their liking is not how negotiations go. That your seem to think that under any future agreement there will not be any Palestinian obligations, or that they will get all their wishes, is an illusion. The same goes for the Israeli side. Never claimed otherwise. Negotiations are a two way street, and both sides will have to face that, eventually.

The majority of the Palestinians will not be consulted, hence your statement is bogus. There was no referendum with regard to previous agreements, and some were accepted or denounced by non-elected leaderships. Hiding behind the "majority of Palestinians" allows for different figures (if including the Arab citizens of Israel and/or Palestinians living in other countries). Even the current representation of the "majority of Palestinians" in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip amounts to a dubious proposition. All that without there being an agreed upon mechanism in place (legal and operational) to conduct such inquiries.

In my opinion, you will have objections to any peace agreement no incorporating the eventual eradication of Israel as a home for the Jewish people. This is based on view expressed earlier on this topic and previous ones. As said, I do not see your views as pro-Palestinian per se, in that they seem to be focused less on solving the conflict through pragmatic realistic compromise, but rather opt for idealistic victories, regardless of cost.

Quoting the headline while ignoring the content of the OP itself is yet another instance of the posting practices denounced previously. Thanks for making my point.

You seem to be strangely and obsessively fixated on how I ought to address the OP. You also again display your amazing mind reading skills to know how I would react to any peace deal.

I can't help you with either of those two issues.

I think it's your very verbose way of saying you disagree with me.

IMO there is only one strong fully equipped army in this conflict, and only one country that has made the choice in its greed for more land to occupy another people. There is only one bully.

As such Israel has the power to resolve this conflict. They seem to be doing the opposite. That is what is frustrating Biden.

I believe a two state solution is the only one in which Israel can preserve a Jewish majority and a state with a Jewish character for the next 50 years say. I don't like racist/religionist supremacism per se so I do hope Israel eventually becomes a secular fully democratic state. But if neighbors are living at peace and Israel is treating its Palestinian population with respect and as completely equal citizens without any discriminatory laws and practises, all well and good

Unless you want to introduce some new material and still remain on topic, I think I have expressed all the points I wanted to make.

You are entitled to your opinions. The continuous attempts to misrepresent anything relating to the conflict as conforming to your opinions is rejected. Cheeky to comment on mind-reading skills when you seem to apply the same with regard to the OP.

Reiterating Israel being the stronger party will not change the fact that an agreement cannot be solved unilaterally. Biden's speech clearly refers to both sides being responsible for the current stalemate, even if you choose to ignore the fact.

Denouncing Israel's policies without reference to proclaimed future Palestinian policies (and current practices) is the familiar double standard. In as much as Israel stays a home for the Jewish people, it will never fully conform to your supposed notion of ideal democracy. This pretty much guarantees the same ongoing criticism, demonization, and denouncement of potential agreements.

[borborygmus]

One point I've seen raised time and again is that "We can't judge the Israelis' actions on the West Bank because we're not there." And, of course, the same people who raise this point also say, "We can't judge the Palestinians' actions on the West Bank because we're not there." Except, of course, they do judge the Palestinians' actions and judge them severely.

[Galactus]

biden is right but as usual 'white rich powerful men just talk'

no sanctions for Israel and no actions for oppression or land stealing. When it is N. Korea and Iran, things happen quickly and sanctions come but when it is Israel, it is just empty talk.

only solution is granting hard sanctions for Israel until they have nothing but desert sand in their hands. and believe me, in a month, once 'well-fed-by-US' jews are hungry, Israel turn into to a kitten and leave all wrong policies and stolen land.

i dont see any solution apart form Israel returning to 1947 borders and having a two independent states there.

Edited April 29, 2016 by Galactus

[Morch]

biden is right but as usual 'white rich powerful men just talk'

no sanctions for Israel and no actions for oppression or land stealing. When it is N. Korea and Iran, things happen quickly and sanctions come but when it is Israel, it is just empty talk.

only solution is granting hard sanctions for Israel until they have nothing but desert sand in their hands. and believe me, in a month, once 'well-fed-by-US' jews are hungry, Israel turn into to a kitten and leave all wrong policies and stolen land.

i dont see any solution apart form Israel returning to 1947 borders and having a two independent states there.

Were these parts of the speech right as well?

"There is at the moment no political will that I observed from either Israelis or Palestinians to go forward with serious negotiations," Biden said.

Biden also singled out Palestinian leaders, including Abbas, for declining to condemn specific acts of terrorism carried out against Israelis, in a nod to the seven-month wave of Palestinian stabbings and other attacks.

"No matter what legitimate disagreements the Palestinian people have with Israel, there is never justification for terrorism," Biden said. "No leader should fail to condemn as terrorists those who commit such brutalities."

Sanctions on Israel will hurt Palestinians as well, might very well result in strengthening Israeli right wing parties, and contribute to extremism from both sides.Thanks for not hiding behind masks and sharing how you feel about Jews. By the way, sanctions very rarely lead to immediate results - the willingness of keyboard warriors to plunge Israelis and Palestinians into harsher reality speaks volumes of their agenda.

No one is seriously suggesting the 1947 lines as forming the basis for negotiations.

[Galactus]

biden is right but as usual 'white rich powerful men just talk'

no sanctions for Israel and no actions for oppression or land stealing. When it is N. Korea and Iran, things happen quickly and sanctions come but when it is Israel, it is just empty talk.

only solution is granting hard sanctions for Israel until they have nothing but desert sand in their hands. and believe me, in a month, once 'well-fed-by-US' jews are hungry, Israel turn into to a kitten and leave all wrong policies and stolen land.

i dont see any solution apart form Israel returning to 1947 borders and having a two independent states there.

Were these parts of the speech right as well?

"There is at the moment no political will that I observed from either Israelis or Palestinians to go forward with serious negotiations," Biden said.

Biden also singled out Palestinian leaders, including Abbas, for declining to condemn specific acts of terrorism carried out against Israelis, in a nod to the seven-month wave of Palestinian stabbings and other attacks.

"No matter what legitimate disagreements the Palestinian people have with Israel, there is never justification for terrorism," Biden said. "No leader should fail to condemn as terrorists those who commit such brutalities."

Sanctions on Israel will hurt Palestinians as well, might very well result in strengthening Israeli right wing parties, and contribute to extremism from both sides.Thanks for not hiding behind masks and sharing how you feel about Jews. By the way, sanctions very rarely lead to immediate results - the willingness of keyboard warriors to plunge Israelis and Palestinians into harsher reality speaks volumes of their agenda.

No one is seriously suggesting the 1947 lines as forming the basis for negotiations.

you mixed things. this is not what i feel. just reality itself.

sanctions on israel will not hurt palestinians. and anyway, they get hurt or murdered or oppressed nearly everyday now so i believe they should be fine.

[johnatong]

biden is right but as usual 'white rich powerful men just talk'

no sanctions for Israel and no actions for oppression or land stealing. When it is N. Korea and Iran, things happen quickly and sanctions come but when it is Israel, it is just empty talk.

only solution is granting hard sanctions for Israel until they have nothing but desert sand in their hands. and believe me, in a month, once 'well-fed-by-US' jews are hungry, Israel turn into to a kitten and leave all wrong policies and stolen land.

i dont see any solution apart form Israel returning to 1947 borders and having a two independent states there.

Were these parts of the speech right as well?

"There is at the moment no political will that I observed from either Israelis or Palestinians to go forward with serious negotiations," Biden said.

Biden also singled out Palestinian leaders, including Abbas, for declining to condemn specific acts of terrorism carried out against Israelis, in a nod to the seven-month wave of Palestinian stabbings and other attacks.

"No matter what legitimate disagreements the Palestinian people have with Israel, there is never justification for terrorism," Biden said. "No leader should fail to condemn as terrorists those who commit such brutalities."

Sanctions on Israel will hurt Palestinians as well, might very well result in strengthening Israeli right wing parties, and contribute to extremism from both sides.Thanks for not hiding behind masks and sharing how you feel about Jews. By the way, sanctions very rarely lead to immediate results - the willingness of keyboard warriors to plunge Israelis and Palestinians into harsher reality speaks volumes of their agenda.

No one is seriously suggesting the 1947 lines as forming the basis for negotiations.

you mixed things. this is not what i feel. just reality itself.

sanctions on israel will not hurt palestinians. and anyway, they get hurt or murdered or oppressed nearly everyday now so i believe they should be fine.

You seem confused ! The reality is that rabid terrorists have to be corralled behind walls/barbed wire to prevent them blowing up school buses and committing other such atrocities. Individual terrorists attempted to murder members of the security forces , of course, have to be robustly dealt with and some may be 'hurt' in the process.

[Morch]

biden is right but as usual 'white rich powerful men just talk'

no sanctions for Israel and no actions for oppression or land stealing. When it is N. Korea and Iran, things happen quickly and sanctions come but when it is Israel, it is just empty talk.

only solution is granting hard sanctions for Israel until they have nothing but desert sand in their hands. and believe me, in a month, once 'well-fed-by-US' jews are hungry, Israel turn into to a kitten and leave all wrong policies and stolen land.

i dont see any solution apart form Israel returning to 1947 borders and having a two independent states there.

Were these parts of the speech right as well?

"There is at the moment no political will that I observed from either Israelis or Palestinians to go forward with serious negotiations," Biden said.

Biden also singled out Palestinian leaders, including Abbas, for declining to condemn specific acts of terrorism carried out against Israelis, in a nod to the seven-month wave of Palestinian stabbings and other attacks.

"No matter what legitimate disagreements the Palestinian people have with Israel, there is never justification for terrorism," Biden said. "No leader should fail to condemn as terrorists those who commit such brutalities."

Sanctions on Israel will hurt Palestinians as well, might very well result in strengthening Israeli right wing parties, and contribute to extremism from both sides.Thanks for not hiding behind masks and sharing how you feel about Jews. By the way, sanctions very rarely lead to immediate results - the willingness of keyboard warriors to plunge Israelis and Palestinians into harsher reality speaks volumes of their agenda.

No one is seriously suggesting the 1947 lines as forming the basis for negotiations.

you mixed things. this is not what i feel. just reality itself.

sanctions on israel will not hurt palestinians. and anyway, they get hurt or murdered or oppressed nearly everyday now so i believe they should be fine.

The "feel" remark was to do with your characterization of Jews.

The Palestinians are directly dependent on the Israeli economy. Anything that effects Israeli economy tends to be reflected (or even magnified) on the other side. There are a lot of Palestinians working legally and illegally in Israel (not to mention Israeli workplaces on the West Bank). The Israeli economy taking a hit will definitely carry negative consequences for the Palestinians. Saying it ain't so will not alter reality. Further strengthening of Israel right wing will not spell anything good for the Palestinians, as even more oppressive policies are likely to materialize.

As for "...i believe they should be fine" - always charming to see keyboard warriors volunteering others to suffer. Apparently, no issues with oppression being stepped up and spiced with additional economic hardship.

[derator01]

A member is on a posting holiday after ignoring a request by a moderator to stay on topic and not discuss Zionism. A few posts have been removed along with associated replies. Apologies to the members with the appropriate replies.

[wabothai]

If the terrorist lunatics who hate Israel would simply leave them alone, peace would prevail. I also don't like to hear this BS about the Jews stealing their land. What have the lunatics done with the land that they occupy. Do you see any farms, gardens or manufacturing? It is quite a task to make gardens in the desert but Israel is doing it.

How ignorant of a statement.

israel is simply blocking ALL Palestinian efforts to do anything.

Now mr. gary, who really is the terrorist remains to be seen.

[Morch]

How ignorant of a statement.

israel is simply blocking ALL Palestinian efforts to do anything.

Now mr. gary, who really is the terrorist remains to be seen.

Palestinians themselves view their leadership(s) as self serving and fundamentally corrupt. Obviously, they are ignorant and you know better.

Abbas's son was named in the latest Panama Papers scandal. Abbas himself controls, without oversight, substantial funds donated for the Palestinian's welfare. Khaled Mashaal, Hamas leader, leads a luxurious lifestyle while holding control of Hamas funds and assets abroad. The same, with variations and scope, applies to many others.

The Palestinians could do better, Israel's restrictive policies and ongoing occupation nonwithstanding,

Posters aiming at one-sided representations (and goes for the post you replied to as well) are way off-mark. Biden's speech, which acknowledges issues on both sides, is more to the point.

[Scott]

Off-topic post removed.

[Galactus]

biden is right but as usual 'white rich powerful men just talk'

no sanctions for Israel and no actions for oppression or land stealing. When it is N. Korea and Iran, things happen quickly and sanctions come but when it is Israel, it is just empty talk.

only solution is granting hard sanctions for Israel until they have nothing but desert sand in their hands. and believe me, in a month, once 'well-fed-by-US' jews are hungry, Israel turn into to a kitten and leave all wrong policies and stolen land.

i dont see any solution apart form Israel returning to 1947 borders and having a two independent states there.

Were these parts of the speech right as well?

"There is at the moment no political will that I observed from either Israelis or Palestinians to go forward with serious negotiations," Biden said.

Biden also singled out Palestinian leaders, including Abbas, for declining to condemn specific acts of terrorism carried out against Israelis, in a nod to the seven-month wave of Palestinian stabbings and other attacks.

"No matter what legitimate disagreements the Palestinian people have with Israel, there is never justification for terrorism," Biden said. "No leader should fail to condemn as terrorists those who commit such brutalities."

Sanctions on Israel will hurt Palestinians as well, might very well result in strengthening Israeli right wing parties, and contribute to extremism from both sides.Thanks for not hiding behind masks and sharing how you feel about Jews. By the way, sanctions very rarely lead to immediate results - the willingness of keyboard warriors to plunge Israelis and Palestinians into harsher reality speaks volumes of their agenda.

No one is seriously suggesting the 1947 lines as forming the basis for negotiations.

you mixed things. this is not what i feel. just reality itself.

sanctions on israel will not hurt palestinians. and anyway, they get hurt or murdered or oppressed nearly everyday now so i believe they should be fine.

The "feel" remark was to do with your characterization of Jews.

The Palestinians are directly dependent on the Israeli economy. Anything that effects Israeli economy tends to be reflected (or even magnified) on the other side. There are a lot of Palestinians working legally and illegally in Israel (not to mention Israeli workplaces on the West Bank). The Israeli economy taking a hit will definitely carry negative consequences for the Palestinians. Saying it ain't so will not alter reality. Further strengthening of Israel right wing will not spell anything good for the Palestinians, as even more oppressive policies are likely to materialize.

As for "...i believe they should be fine" - always charming to see keyboard warriors volunteering others to suffer. Apparently, no issues with oppression being stepped up and spiced with additional economic hardship.

sorry but Palestinians are facing an embargo by Israel for years as we speak!

Biden pressing sum right points but it is time for US to do the walk then the talk!

Edited May 3, 2016 by Galactus

[Morch]

Were these parts of the speech right as well?

"There is at the moment no political will that I observed from either Israelis or Palestinians to go forward with serious negotiations," Biden said.

Biden also singled out Palestinian leaders, including Abbas, for declining to condemn specific acts of terrorism carried out against Israelis, in a nod to the seven-month wave of Palestinian stabbings and other attacks.

"No matter what legitimate disagreements the Palestinian people have with Israel, there is never justification for terrorism," Biden said. "No leader should fail to condemn as terrorists those who commit such brutalities."

Sanctions on Israel will hurt Palestinians as well, might very well result in strengthening Israeli right wing parties, and contribute to extremism from both sides.Thanks for not hiding behind masks and sharing how you feel about Jews. By the way, sanctions very rarely lead to immediate results - the willingness of keyboard warriors to plunge Israelis and Palestinians into harsher reality speaks volumes of their agenda.

No one is seriously suggesting the 1947 lines as forming the basis for negotiations.

you mixed things. this is not what i feel. just reality itself.

sanctions on israel will not hurt palestinians. and anyway, they get hurt or murdered or oppressed nearly everyday now so i believe they should be fine.

The "feel" remark was to do with your characterization of Jews.

The Palestinians are directly dependent on the Israeli economy. Anything that effects Israeli economy tends to be reflected (or even magnified) on the other side. There are a lot of Palestinians working legally and illegally in Israel (not to mention Israeli workplaces on the West Bank). The Israeli economy taking a hit will definitely carry negative consequences for the Palestinians. Saying it ain't so will not alter reality. Further strengthening of Israel right wing will not spell anything good for the Palestinians, as even more oppressive policies are likely to materialize.

As for "...i believe they should be fine" - always charming to see keyboard warriors volunteering others to suffer. Apparently, no issues with oppression being stepped up and spiced with additional economic hardship.

sorry but Palestinians are facing an embargo by Israel for years as we speak!

Biden pressing sum right points but it is time for US to do the walk then the talk!

Not all of the Palestinian economic hardship is caused by Israel. Their own leadership plays a big part. This is a reflection of the duality evident in Biden's speech.

And even if this wasn't the case, it still wouldn't have changed the fact that hurting Israel's economy spells adverse effects for the Palestinians as well.

If I understand correctly, you are in favor of making the situation of the Palestinians even worse than it is. The underlying assumptions being that things can't be worse (incorrect), that the Palestinian can take it (keyboard warfare), or that such pressure is bound to have the wished for results (speculative).

As much as posters attempt to harness the OP to their respective extreme views, Biden's speech was overall pretty balanced and reasonable.

[Scott]

Off-topic posts and replies removed.

[Galactus]

Were these parts of the speech right as well?

"There is at the moment no political will that I observed from either Israelis or Palestinians to go forward with serious negotiations," Biden said.

Biden also singled out Palestinian leaders, including Abbas, for declining to condemn specific acts of terrorism carried out against Israelis, in a nod to the seven-month wave of Palestinian stabbings and other attacks.

"No matter what legitimate disagreements the Palestinian people have with Israel, there is never justification for terrorism," Biden said. "No leader should fail to condemn as terrorists those who commit such brutalities."


Sanctions on Israel will hurt Palestinians as well, might very well result in strengthening Israeli right wing parties, and contribute to extremism from both sides.Thanks for not hiding behind masks and sharing how you feel about Jews. By the way, sanctions very rarely lead to immediate results - the willingness of keyboard warriors to plunge Israelis and Palestinians into harsher reality speaks volumes of their agenda.

No one is seriously suggesting the 1947 lines as forming the basis for negotiations.

you mixed things. this is not what i feel. just reality itself.
sanctions on israel will not hurt palestinians. and anyway, they get hurt or murdered or oppressed nearly everyday now so i believe they should be fine.

The "feel" remark was to do with your characterization of Jews.

The Palestinians are directly dependent on the Israeli economy. Anything that effects Israeli economy tends to be reflected (or even magnified) on the other side. There are a lot of Palestinians working legally and illegally in Israel (not to mention Israeli workplaces on the West Bank). The Israeli economy taking a hit will definitely carry negative consequences for the Palestinians. Saying it ain't so will not alter reality. Further strengthening of Israel right wing will not spell anything good for the Palestinians, as even more oppressive policies are likely to materialize.

As for "...i believe they should be fine" - always charming to see keyboard warriors volunteering others to suffer. Apparently, no issues with oppression being stepped up and spiced with additional economic hardship.

sorry but Palestinians are facing an embargo by Israel for years as we speak!

Biden pressing sum right points but it is time for US to do the walk then the talk!

Not all of the Palestinian economic hardship is caused by Israel. Their own leadership plays a big part. This is a reflection of the duality evident in Biden's speech.

And even if this wasn't the case, it still wouldn't have changed the fact that hurting Israel's economy spells adverse effects for the Palestinians as well.
If I understand correctly, you are in favor of making the situation of the Palestinians even worse than it is. The underlying assumptions being that things can't be worse (incorrect), that the Palestinian can take it (keyboard warfare), or that such pressure is bound to have the wished for results (speculative).

As much as posters attempt to harness the OP to their respective extreme views, Biden's speech was overall pretty balanced and reasonable.

economic hardship is caused by Israel which is applying an embargo over Palestine for long years!
So it is all about israel again. Again an embargo to israel is an embargo to israel. Not palestine. Palestinians has borders with other countries too.

[MisterTee]

Not all of the Palestinian economic hardship is caused by Israel. Their own leadership plays a big part. This is a reflection of the duality evident in Biden's speech.

And even if this wasn't the case, it still wouldn't have changed the fact that hurting Israel's economy spells adverse effects for the Palestinians as well.

If I understand correctly, you are in favor of making the situation of the Palestinians even worse than it is. The underlying assumptions being that things can't be worse (incorrect), that the Palestinian can take it (keyboard warfare), or that such pressure is bound to have the wished for results (speculative).

As much as posters attempt to harness the OP to their respective extreme views, Biden's speech was overall pretty balanced and reasonable.

economic hardship is caused by Israel which is applying an embargo over Palestine for long years!

So it is all about israel again. Again an embargo to israel is an embargo to israel. Not palestine. Palestinians has borders with other countries too.

Biden's speech didn't mention the elephant in the room - the BDS movement.

In fact BDS has proven to be a bonanza for Israel. First, if you look at the genesis of Israel's current BDS hysteria, it's illuminating to pinpoint exactly when it began. It started right after Netanyahu was defeated on the Iran issue. Netanyahu and his cronies thrive on conjuring up enemies who allegedly want to destroy Israel. So they manufactured this hysteria about Iran, but it didn't work because the West wanted to cut a deal. When Iran was off the agenda, Netanyahu needed a new Great Satan that was bent on Israel's destruction. So he grasped at BDS. It became the new pretext for Israel to play victim.

Israel was getting nervous as international public opinion turned against it, and claimed that all criticism of Israel was at heart BDS and that BDS was about destroying Israel. By exaggerating the reach and potency of BDS, Israel could delegitimize even the most tepid but also most ominous critics. It could now allege that even they were really - whatever they might avow - seeking Israel's destruction. The irony is, while Netanyahu wails that BDS wants to delegitimize Israel, in fact, he is manipulating BDS to delegitimize principled criticism of the occupation and the illegal settlements.

[willyumiii]

Don't you worry you pretty head Mr Biden, soon enough, you and your ilk will be gone and the stage will be

ready for new person and new thinking, you and your cohorts will retire to write your memoirs how you

and your boss have failed on many levels in foreign policies, I'm sure it will be a best seller.....

Yes, what a failed foreign policy.

You did not invade a single country for no reason at all, killed not innocent people and sacrificed the lives of no American military for corporate profit

You have really let the industrial military complex and republican war mongers down.

You should be proud of yourselves.

[Steely Dan]

Not all of the Palestinian economic hardship is caused by Israel. Their own leadership plays a big part. This is a reflection of the duality evident in Biden's speech.

And even if this wasn't the case, it still wouldn't have changed the fact that hurting Israel's economy spells adverse effects for the Palestinians as well.

If I understand correctly, you are in favor of making the situation of the Palestinians even worse than it is. The underlying assumptions being that things can't be worse (incorrect), that the Palestinian can take it (keyboard warfare), or that such pressure is bound to have the wished for results (speculative).

As much as posters attempt to harness the OP to their respective extreme views, Biden's speech was overall pretty balanced and reasonable.

economic hardship is caused by Israel which is applying an embargo over Palestine for long years!

So it is all about israel again. Again an embargo to israel is an embargo to israel. Not palestine. Palestinians has borders with other countries too.

Biden's speech didn't mention the elephant in the room - the BDS movement.

In fact BDS has proven to be a bonanza for Israel. First, if you look at the genesis of Israel's current BDS hysteria, it's illuminating to pinpoint exactly when it began. It started right after Netanyahu was defeated on the Iran issue. Netanyahu and his cronies thrive on conjuring up enemies who allegedly want to destroy Israel. So they manufactured this hysteria about Iran, but it didn't work because the West wanted to cut a deal. When Iran was off the agenda, Netanyahu needed a new Great Satan that was bent on Israel's destruction. So he grasped at BDS. It became the new pretext for Israel to play victim.

Israel was getting nervous as international public opinion turned against it, and claimed that all criticism of Israel was at heart BDS and that BDS was about destroying Israel. By exaggerating the reach and potency of BDS, Israel could delegitimize even the most tepid but also most ominous critics. It could now allege that even they were really - whatever they might avow - seeking Israel's destruction. The irony is, while Netanyahu wails that BDS wants to delegitimize Israel, in fact, he is manipulating BDS to delegitimize principled criticism of the occupation and the illegal settlements.

You don't mean to say Israel created BDS just like they created ISIS? ;-)

[Jingthing]

The Israel demonization agenda sees "Israeli" conspiracies under every rock. I don't know how they can sleep at night!

[Morch]

The "feel" remark was to do with your characterization of Jews.

The Palestinians are directly dependent on the Israeli economy. Anything that effects Israeli economy tends to be reflected (or even magnified) on the other side. There are a lot of Palestinians working legally and illegally in Israel (not to mention Israeli workplaces on the West Bank). The Israeli economy taking a hit will definitely carry negative consequences for the Palestinians. Saying it ain't so will not alter reality. Further strengthening of Israel right wing will not spell anything good for the Palestinians, as even more oppressive policies are likely to materialize.

As for "...i believe they should be fine" - always charming to see keyboard warriors volunteering others to suffer. Apparently, no issues with oppression being stepped up and spiced with additional economic hardship.

sorry but Palestinians are facing an embargo by Israel for years as we speak!

Biden pressing sum right points but it is time for US to do the walk then the talk!

Not all of the Palestinian economic hardship is caused by Israel. Their own leadership plays a big part. This is a reflection of the duality evident in Biden's speech.

And even if this wasn't the case, it still wouldn't have changed the fact that hurting Israel's economy spells adverse effects for the Palestinians as well.

If I understand correctly, you are in favor of making the situation of the Palestinians even worse than it is. The underlying assumptions being that things can't be worse (incorrect), that the Palestinian can take it (keyboard warfare), or that such pressure is bound to have the wished for results (speculative).

As much as posters attempt to harness the OP to their respective extreme views, Biden's speech was overall pretty balanced and reasonable.

economic hardship is caused by Israel which is applying an embargo over Palestine for long years!

So it is all about israel again. Again an embargo to israel is an embargo to israel. Not palestine. Palestinians has borders with other countries too.

The economic hardships of the Palestinians are also due to their own leadership failure and choices made. That you insist otherwise does not change the fact, nor does it alter how Palestinians view their own leaders.

It also helps to have a clue when posting - there is only one relevant border pass not under Israeli control, between the Gaza Strip and Egypt. This border pass operated under strict restrictions applied and maintained by Egypt. Even if the Egyptian policy was to dramatically change, it would not apply to the West Bank.

So once again, there is no way to impose meaningful economic restrictions on Israel without them having adverse effects on the Palestinians.

[Morch]

@MisterTee

Indeed, Biden's speech did not mention the BDS - which makes the above rant off topic.

From the convulsed argument presented it seems that had he brought it up, that would serve Netanyahu's government as well.

[Galactus]

sorry but Palestinians are facing an embargo by Israel for years as we speak!

Biden pressing sum right points but it is time for US to do the walk then the talk!

Not all of the Palestinian economic hardship is caused by Israel. Their own leadership plays a big part. This is a reflection of the duality evident in Biden's speech.

And even if this wasn't the case, it still wouldn't have changed the fact that hurting Israel's economy spells adverse effects for the Palestinians as well.

If I understand correctly, you are in favor of making the situation of the Palestinians even worse than it is. The underlying assumptions being that things can't be worse (incorrect), that the Palestinian can take it (keyboard warfare), or that such pressure is bound to have the wished for results (speculative).

As much as posters attempt to harness the OP to their respective extreme views, Biden's speech was overall pretty balanced and reasonable.

economic hardship is caused by Israel which is applying an embargo over Palestine for long years!

So it is all about israel again. Again an embargo to israel is an embargo to israel. Not palestine. Palestinians has borders with other countries too.

The economic hardships of the Palestinians are also due to their own leadership failure and choices made. That you insist otherwise does not change the fact, nor does it alter how Palestinians view their own leaders.

It also helps to have a clue when posting - there is only one relevant border pass not under Israeli control, between the Gaza Strip and Egypt. This border pass operated under strict restrictions applied and maintained by Egypt. Even if the Egyptian policy was to dramatically change, it would not apply to the West Bank.

So once again, there is no way to impose meaningful economic restrictions on Israel without them having adverse effects on the Palestinians.

yes due to their land being stolen and they are pushed to poverty by Israel?

and you say this is all about politicians in Palestine which sounds funny. but what world see is it is all about Zionist and fascist Israeli politicians and their dogs killing in the name of religion(against the religion) and stealing land.

hence those movements like BDS surfaced and lots of pressure towards Israel to end this bloodshed.

you dont want to see it, it is your problem as a human.

Even Biden can see it and talk about it.

[Morch]

I did not say it is all about politicians. Read my posts again.

Not only twisting my words, but those of Biden as well - read the OP again: it is not as one-sided as your views seem to be, and it does not employ similar rhetoric. It certainly does not parrot your BDS nonsense, for which you cannot even offer coherent support.