Thailand's military government cracks down on opponents

[heybruce]

Of course we're not allowed to know what the offensive posts were. We just have to trust the junta to do the right thing and enforce the law in a fair and unbiased manner.

[Laughing Gravy]

I have just read my tea leaves and it is all going to go Pete Tong.

[fxe1200]

A post has been removed:

2) You will not use ThaiVisa.com to post any material which is knowingly or can be reasonably construed as false, inaccurate, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise in violation of any law.

You also agree not to post negative comments criticizing the legal proceedings or judgments of any Thai court of law.

I will never criticize the legal proceedings or judgments of any Thai court of law, but may I ask, why is he/she/it doing so? It could be a request for a logical answer, to try to understand the proceedings. Or would that request be an imposition?

[Holy Cinema]

All western junta lovers should be ashamed of them self,everybody who supports them should give up their citizenship and ask for Thai passport

Do you honestly think the Thais would want them here?

[mrmicbkktxl]

All western junta lovers should be ashamed of them self,everybody who supports them should give up their citizenship and ask for Thai passport

Do you honestly think the Thais would want them here?

Not that they really want them here,but for a fee of 2-3million baht..............

[Whyamiandwhatamidoinghere]

24/04/2016 headline post

Thai government respects Human Rights

So how does this statement fit in with human rights!!

I'm sorry but I'm not sure they really understand what Human Rights are !!

The Government believes in Human Rights... Just not in Thailand.They already told Thai people if they want human rights then leave Thailand, otherwise shut up and squat down.

[partington]

Facilitators of oppression, even tacit ones, are oppressors themselves, and must be willing to take the consequences, karmic or otherwise.

[kimamey]

It raises now the morality of holidaying there?

Last night Australian TV showed the heat Thailand was said to be experiencing ( the hottest in decades according to news reporters)

As pictures of baby elephants were shown and zoo animals eating ice blocks.

Western media has largely ignored Thai human rights abuses .

Even EU threats to red card their fishing industry has piped down for a few more months .

Tourists are largely unaware of what goes on there or cares.

Thais have little help from ambassadors these days and it seems everyone is in on the insidious game of allowing peasants / students to be terrified along with others to even raise objection to what is a horses ass of a document that fixes the odds in the armies favour .

To suggest otherwise is sheer folly and fabrication.

But when is the international community going to say ""look we have warned you repeatedly that jailing and detaining people against their will is not allowed in the civilised world "" and invoke sanctions ?

At the end of the day the movement of the military is towards silencing all opposition.

How far will this go is anyone's guess.

If they do manage to carry of elections and retain control over the nation by proxy for decades the Thai people effectively were sold out.

The west and all their fake moral posturing , which is why guys like Trump are succeeding in a non PC fashion .

Will largely be at fault.

It seems Thailand is willing to burn all bridges with the west if it doesn't turn a blind eye to its antics .

And cooling down elephants on our TV screens and excited daughters saying ""lets go there"" is what is being fed to us.

What happened to the death camps discovered in jungles and rulings on Fishing slaves ?

What happened to promises ?

Why are the freedoms of speech guardians ?

Why are these men receiving awards in New York whilst arresting their citizens over red bowls , Facebook likes and having an opinion?

The final and only thing left for moral people to do if their governments won't act.

Is boycott the place and look at labels to make sure it's not Thai.

Maybe only then will pressures be sufficient for the apathy to give way to progress.

Right now Thailand is bottling up an awful amount of frustration .

If something gives I am not so sure white skinned people will be received well be either side.

One side says we are not Thai and should mind our own business.

The other side watches as we do nothing and hand out awards to same leaders?

Thailand is closing the door.

And we must place a foot out while its possible .

Otherwise it closes for ever

Maybe ASEAN could do something as well.

[kimamey]

And the NLA, which essentially approves all Junta legislative proposals by a vote of 180-0, is considering amendments to further strengthen the Computer Crime laws...

New computer crime law to give govt more control over content

THE NATION April 28, 2016 1:00 am

THE National Legislative Assembly will today consider a new computer crime legislation, which critics said would lead to more government powers to control the countrys online content, including those on popular social media.

Paiboon Amonpinyokeat, a cyber-law specialist, said an amendment to Article 20 of the Computer Crimes Act will allow the government to remove content on blogs and websites as well as social media platforms such as Facebook and Line if they are deemed "inappropriate" or seen to negatively affect peace and order.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/politics/New-computer-crime-law-to-give-govt-more-control-o-30284860.html

Exactly how do they plan to remove content from Facebook, blogs, and websites?

It's like the frog slowly boiled alive.

Each instalment is done in increments.

We are two years in and already jail is the punishment for criticism of a document designed to entrench their powers.

Fear is paramount in their survival.

Social media control is essential in weeding out possible protesters and or academic posturing.

People are effectively being penned into a place where submission equates to good citizen and questioning bad citizen.

It's unlikely they will achieve the goal of controlling Facebook and Twitter without resistance .

That resistance may take the form of wide spread protests.

Thais even in Bangkok will object to having restrictions on global interactions placed.

Meaning that a like can fetch jail terms in some instances.

Voting red make you a suspect .

Not approving of military activities a traitor ?

This next cycle is just beginning and how the world responds will determine the outcome.

I envision this military either being vey isolationist and anti west and iron gripped.

Or risking defeat within 24 months .

They understand survival

And the consequences of failure.

They would face court marshalling and death.

So all measures to survive will be put in play.

Including firing live rounds into their own population and jailing opponents.

I predict that even westerners will soon be subjected to AA and deportation .

And expats my find ordinary life there increasingly disruptive as anti western sentiment is sold to Thais as political tampering.

I would start considering an exit plan just in case .

Maybe be ready in a few months or years to leave if things gradually get worrying.

Certainly it seems we are boarding a flight that's heading in the wrong direction.

I'm not sure westerners will find Thais against them. Assuming that in most cases westerners don't agree with the junta either so basically we're on the same side.

I think one of the junta's weak spots is the extent to which those in charge retain the support of the lower ranks.

[JAG]

And the NLA, which essentially approves all Junta legislative proposals by a vote of 180-0, is considering amendments to further strengthen the Computer Crime laws...

New computer crime law to give govt more control over content

THE NATION April 28, 2016 1:00 am

THE National Legislative Assembly will today consider a new computer crime legislation, which critics said would lead to more government powers to control the countrys online content, including those on popular social media.

Paiboon Amonpinyokeat, a cyber-law specialist, said an amendment to Article 20 of the Computer Crimes Act will allow the government to remove content on blogs and websites as well as social media platforms such as Facebook and Line if they are deemed "inappropriate" or seen to negatively affect peace and order.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/politics/New-computer-crime-law-to-give-govt-more-control-o-30284860.html

Exactly how do they plan to remove content from Facebook, blogs, and websites?

It's like the frog slowly boiled alive.

Each instalment is done in increments.

We are two years in and already jail is the punishment for criticism of a document designed to entrench their powers.

Fear is paramount in their survival.

Social media control is essential in weeding out possible protesters and or academic posturing.

People are effectively being penned into a place where submission equates to good citizen and questioning bad citizen.

It's unlikely they will achieve the goal of controlling Facebook and Twitter without resistance .

That resistance may take the form of wide spread protests.

Thais even in Bangkok will object to having restrictions on global interactions placed.

Meaning that a like can fetch jail terms in some instances.

Voting red make you a suspect .

Not approving of military activities a traitor ?

This next cycle is just beginning and how the world responds will determine the outcome.

I envision this military either being vey isolationist and anti west and iron gripped.

Or risking defeat within 24 months .

They understand survival

And the consequences of failure.

They would face court marshalling and death.

So all measures to survive will be put in play.

Including firing live rounds into their own population and jailing opponents.

I predict that even westerners will soon be subjected to AA and deportation .

And expats my find ordinary life there increasingly disruptive as anti western sentiment is sold to Thais as political tampering.

I would start considering an exit plan just in case .

Maybe be ready in a few months or years to leave if things gradually get worrying.

Certainly it seems we are boarding a flight that's heading in the wrong direction.

I'm not sure westerners will find Thais against them. Assuming that in most cases westerners don't agree with the junta either so basically we're on the same side.

I think one of the junta's weak spots is the extent to which those in charge retain the support of the lower ranks.

If the wheels do come off, I should imagine that those trying to cling onto the old order will have so much on their plate that coming after westerners is not likely to feature in their game plan.

[waitforusalso]

How does this end? The longer these obstinate, bigoted bullies cling onto power, the bloodier it could be. Lid can only stay on the pot for so long.

Who would have thought that people could be stupid enough to believe after 18 miserably failed coups, the 19th would be successful. Clueless!

[NCFC]

It raises now the morality of holidaying there?

Last night Australian TV showed the heat Thailand was said to be experiencing ( the hottest in decades according to news reporters)

As pictures of baby elephants were shown and zoo animals eating ice blocks.

Western media has largely ignored Thai human rights abuses .

Even EU threats to red card their fishing industry has piped down for a few more months .

Tourists are largely unaware of what goes on there or cares.

Thais have little help from ambassadors these days and it seems everyone is in on the insidious game of allowing peasants / students to be terrified along with others to even raise objection to what is a horses ass of a document that fixes the odds in the armies favour .

To suggest otherwise is sheer folly and fabrication.

But when is the international community going to say ""look we have warned you repeatedly that jailing and detaining people against their will is not allowed in the civilised world "" and invoke sanctions ?

At the end of the day the movement of the military is towards silencing all opposition.

How far will this go is anyone's guess.

If they do manage to carry of elections and retain control over the nation by proxy for decades the Thai people effectively were sold out.

The west and all their fake moral posturing , which is why guys like Trump are succeeding in a non PC fashion .

Will largely be at fault.

It seems Thailand is willing to burn all bridges with the west if it doesn't turn a blind eye to its antics .

And cooling down elephants on our TV screens and excited daughters saying ""lets go there"" is what is being fed to us.

What happened to the death camps discovered in jungles and rulings on Fishing slaves ?

What happened to promises ?

Why are the freedoms of speech guardians ?

Why are these men receiving awards in New York whilst arresting their citizens over red bowls , Facebook likes and having an opinion?

The final and only thing left for moral people to do if their governments won't act.

Is boycott the place and look at labels to make sure it's not Thai.

Maybe only then will pressures be sufficient for the apathy to give way to progress.

Right now Thailand is bottling up an awful amount of frustration .

If something gives I am not so sure white skinned people will be received well be either side.

One side says we are not Thai and should mind our own business.

The other side watches as we do nothing and hand out awards to same leaders?

Thailand is closing the door.

And we must place a foot out while its possible .

Otherwise it closes for ever

Not just stop holidaying there but stop living there, too.

[Merylhighground]

Not just stop holidaying there but stop living there, too.

Quite so!

It has long been churned out, usually to frowns, cries of denial, accusations of paranoia in bar rooms across the Kingdom (not to mention various internet Fora):

''that the Thais don't want us ['farangs'] here, just our money'' or words to that effect.

It is looking, more and more, like these cynics are now being proved right one step at a time.

The struggle for power will see the ruling power not only turn the screw on their opponents and their unfortunate people bit-by-bit, by suppressing basic freedoms, but on every non -Thai in the Kingdom by regularly tweaking immigration regulations until remaining in the Kingdom, unless you are a millionaire or have skills which will be of value to the reigning party (whoever they may be) will be nigh on impossible for the 'regular man on the street'.

Tough times are ahead my friends, tough times.

[heybruce]

Across the board boycotts and sanctions will hurt the little people as much or more than the rich. Targeted financial sanctions against members of the junta might work, but they're hard to pull off and might motivate further movement into the smothering embrace of China.

Tourists could help in a small way by eating, sleeping and spending money in small businesses rather than the big businesses that always have government connections. Other than that I think the situation will have to be resolved by the Thai people.

[Nickymaster]

Crack down on opponents or paid propaganda puppets....

[Ricardo]

How does this end? The longer these obstinate, bigoted bullies cling onto power, the bloodier it could be. Lid can only stay on the pot for so long.

Who would have thought that people could be stupid enough to believe after 18 miserably failed coups, the 19th would be successful. Clueless!

Yes, better to put one's faith in all those honest principled politicians instead, they'd never rip off the people .... erm ... I think I just spotted the flaw in that plan ... anyone have any decent alternatives to offer ?

[DM07]

The only crackdown in Thailand, that ever worked....

[dageurreotype]

Look at how Thailand has progressed since this bunch of old khaki-clad bullies took over. Why would anyone want to criticise them?

Ohhh I don't know, I mean look at all the good things they have done for the country like err, ummm,

They got the lotto fixed, mostly but the underground ones still going.

Also they got rid of them nasty beach chairs at Phuket. er what els did they do???

OOOh OOOOh they had a park with statues built that had some corruption issues but they fixed that as well, all gone away now.

Then they protected the whole nation from them political science students on the train and then they went after his mother, wow they are so good to the people...

And lets not forget the terrorist with the red bowl and gaoling her for ten years

They told the world they ALWAYS PROTECT AND RESPECT human rights to international standards..

Waiting for the first falang to be "invited too an attitude adjustment" for speaking his/her mind, then the s___t will hit the fan.

Why I don't understand is where is djjamie, smedly and the very few left on TVF that should be here supporting their mates with the guns telling the rest of the country what they can and can not say????? You fellas ready to admit ya got it spectacularly WRONG???????????

They introduced and implemented the Animal Welfare Act. I could not give a toss about anything else. The so called democratically elected governments were equally bad. The only difference being they could be voted out, to be replaced by yet another corrupt self interested bunch. Freedom of speech? Pah! Never existed here and any opposition were shot dead under the guise of 'the war on drugs' etc. Hell with the lot of them.

[Plutojames88]

Not just stop holidaying there but stop living there, too.

Quite so!

It has long been churned out, usually to frowns, cries of denial, accusations of paranoia in bar rooms across the Kingdom (not to mention various internet Fora):

''that the Thais don't want us ['farangs'] here, just our money'' or words to that effect.

It is looking, more and more, like these cynics are now being proved right one step at a time.

The struggle for power will see the ruling power not only turn the screw on their opponents and their unfortunate people bit-by-bit, by suppressing basic freedoms, but on every non -Thai in the Kingdom by regularly tweaking immigration regulations until remaining in the Kingdom, unless you are a millionaire or have skills which will be of value to the reigning party (whoever they may be) will be nigh on impossible for the 'regular man on the street'.

Tough times are ahead my friends, tough times.

Yes , I agree with that assessment .

Some here wonder how we might be demonised by regular Thais if we are seen as largely Anti junta ?

That's a simple slight of hand.

Propaganda with a largely uneducated xenophobic Thai population and selective quotes and translations a miss.

And then Monks denouncing us even burning flags outside embassies .

Clips on tv of western arrests of pedophiles and men with very young woman .

Westerners urinating on streets and shrines and the usual Thai heart stirring music .

Insert general saying we are not taking anymore

""Farang go home "" yell military decked out children.

Cut to Thai flag.

The scariest part is some westerners here don't even now think we are heading in that direction.?

"Good guys in bad guys out "

Reads the sign at immigration .

""Quality tourists"" is a way of saying many of us are undesirables.

Recently , the general has said he isn't going to stand for international criticism regards Thai politics .

And he also rejected applications to over see a referendum .

It's clear add that with tightening visa rules.

And no multiple entry visas .

And the police state being built .

Journalists having work visas cancelled .

Friday night multi channelled speeches .

And the ""for or against "" mentality , that times are changing.

Next it will be retirement visas and the raising of age required and making a cost that's prohibitive ?

Currently you only need 800,000 Thai baht and be aged 50 or over and have some income that amounts to about $2000 AUD a month.

Those circumnavigating that will be next.

Then there are businesses by westerners .

And westerners on social media .

That live there.

I remind the readers i write this from the safety of Sydney Australia.

For now they are just getting Facebook Thais .

But don't think as the water boils hotter that we won't be checked on.

Soon it won't be safe period if you enter the kingdom to be anti military.

Then later it just won't be safe.

Full stop.

We my friends are watching history unfold.

And a country we love slip away.

Into a dark void unless something gives.

It's becoming clearer these guys that have taken the country over intend on keeping it - and for the next several years that seems likely.

And the shift to a darker Thailand is concerning to all observers.

No more so than those being arrested as we communicate here for having a free expression of thought on Facebook .

This is 21st century Thailand no longer smooth as silk

In a few years westerners may avoid the place entirely at this rate of knots and that's maybe their plan ultimately ?

Edited April 29, 2016 by Plutojames88

[jamesbrock]

It raises now the morality of holidaying there?

Last night Australian TV showed the heat Thailand was said to be experiencing ( the hottest in decades according to news reporters)

As pictures of baby elephants were shown and zoo animals eating ice blocks.

Western media has largely ignored Thai human rights abuses .

Even EU threats to red card their fishing industry has piped down for a few more months .

Tourists are largely unaware of what goes on there or cares.

Thais have little help from ambassadors these days and it seems everyone is in on the insidious game of allowing peasants / students to be terrified along with others to even raise objection to what is a horses ass of a document that fixes the odds in the armies favour .

To suggest otherwise is sheer folly and fabrication.

But when is the international community going to say ""look we have warned you repeatedly that jailing and detaining people against their will is not allowed in the civilised world "" and invoke sanctions ?

At the end of the day the movement of the military is towards silencing all opposition.

How far will this go is anyone's guess.

If they do manage to carry of elections and retain control over the nation by proxy for decades the Thai people effectively were sold out.

The west and all their fake moral posturing , which is why guys like Trump are succeeding in a non PC fashion .

Will largely be at fault.

It seems Thailand is willing to burn all bridges with the west if it doesn't turn a blind eye to its antics .

And cooling down elephants on our TV screens and excited daughters saying ""lets go there"" is what is being fed to us.

What happened to the death camps discovered in jungles and rulings on Fishing slaves ?

What happened to promises ?

Why are the freedoms of speech guardians ?

Why are these men receiving awards in New York whilst arresting their citizens over red bowls , Facebook likes and having an opinion?

The final and only thing left for moral people to do if their governments won't act.

Is boycott the place and look at labels to make sure it's not Thai.

Maybe only then will pressures be sufficient for the apathy to give way to progress.

Right now Thailand is bottling up an awful amount of frustration .

If something gives I am not so sure white skinned people will be received well be either side.

One side says we are not Thai and should mind our own business.

The other side watches as we do nothing and hand out awards to same leaders?

Thailand is closing the door.

And we must place a foot out while its possible .

Otherwise it closes for ever

Maybe ASEAN could do something as well.

Other ASEAN nations have their own problems; have you seen this guy?

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-04-28/philippine-candidate-rodrigo-duterte-vows-murder-pardon/7365436

He amazingly makes the General look good!

I'll give him one thing though, at least he's up front about his intentions/plans, rather than repeating lines that are demonstrably false as though the more times you repeat something the more truthful it becomes...

Edited April 29, 2016 by jamesbrock

[Snig27]

How does this end? The longer these obstinate, bigoted bullies cling onto power, the bloodier it could be. Lid can only stay on the pot for so long.

Who would have thought that people could be stupid enough to believe after 18 miserably failed coups, the 19th would be successful. Clueless!

Yes, better to put one's faith in all those honest principled politicians instead, they'd never rip off the people .... erm ... I think I just spotted the flaw in that plan ... anyone have any decent alternatives to offer ?

Yes, allowing democracy to grow and develop democratic institutions as has worked repeatedly around the planet, including several increasingly strong Asian democracies. Don't you understand that the coups are the reason the politicians are so flawed?

[Ricardo]

How does this end? The longer these obstinate, bigoted bullies cling onto power, the bloodier it could be. Lid can only stay on the pot for so long.

Who would have thought that people could be stupid enough to believe after 18 miserably failed coups, the 19th would be successful. Clueless!

Yes, better to put one's faith in all those honest principled politicians instead, they'd never rip off the people .... erm ... I think I just spotted the flaw in that plan ... anyone have any decent alternatives to offer ?

Yes, allowing democracy to grow and develop democratic institutions as has worked repeatedly around the planet, including several increasingly strong Asian democracies. Don't you understand that the coups are the reason the politicians are so flawed?

"the coups are the reason the politicians are so flawed"

Oddly enough, i thought that the reason most local politicians are so flawed, was that they're mostly incompetent or inherently-corrupt individuals, who only succeed if they buy into the corrupt democratic political-parties' way of operating, am I then wrong ?

For example one fairly-recent elected-PM here actually declared that democracy was only a useful tool, not really an objective, and he expected his political-party to remain in-power for at least the next twenty years, his autocratic management-style ('I make all the decisions anyway') and suppression of democratic institutions appeared to me to be a step in the wrong direction.

It may be cynical of me, but I see relatively few strong democracies around the planet either, I certainly wouldn't include the UK (my country of origin) or the USA (vide the current presidential-nomination campaign) as shining examples. And they can't blame the coups for that.

[tuanku]

[skildpadden]

The screws are tightened slightly every time so people won't notice.

Significant for most of the laws and rules introduced, is that the law itself might not sound that bad, but when you combine all these small streams you will have a big river.

Let us take the current thread's example: People are allowed to post opinions agreeing or disagreeing with the new draft, but we encourage that they do so in an academic fashion with reason and logic, rather than using foul and strong language. Well anyone will agree that you shouldn't use foul language when debating - you want to keep things civilized, no harm in that.

But next logic step for the army is to say if you can't debate like a civlized person, you shouldn't be allowed debate at all and we will lock you up if you open your mouth.

They are the ones to determine if the debate on the referendum is academic, not anyone else. They are the ones to determine what is foul language or not (e.g. is the PM threatening to execute journalists foul language?).

Further you will then also exclude a lot of people with little education who cannot express themselves academically but still have very valid points.

[Snig27]

How does this end? The longer these obstinate, bigoted bullies cling onto power, the bloodier it could be. Lid can only stay on the pot for so long.

Who would have thought that people could be stupid enough to believe after 18 miserably failed coups, the 19th would be successful. Clueless!

Yes, better to put one's faith in all those honest principled politicians instead, they'd never rip off the people .... erm ... I think I just spotted the flaw in that plan ... anyone have any decent alternatives to offer ?

Yes, allowing democracy to grow and develop democratic institutions as has worked repeatedly around the planet, including several increasingly strong Asian democracies. Don't you understand that the coups are the reason the politicians are so flawed?

It may be cynical of me, but I see relatively few strong democracies around the planet either, I certainly wouldn't include the UK (my country of origin) or the USA (vide the current presidential-nomination campaign) as shining examples. And they can't blame the coups for that.

And in each of those you have the right and the ability to vote them out. It's a flawed system but it largely stumbles along.

[Holy Cinema]

Yes, better to put one's faith in all those honest principled politicians instead, they'd never rip off the people .... erm ... I think I just spotted the flaw in that plan ... anyone have any decent alternatives to offer ?

Yes, allowing democracy to grow and develop democratic institutions as has worked repeatedly around the planet, including several increasingly strong Asian democracies. Don't you understand that the coups are the reason the politicians are so flawed?

It may be cynical of me, but I see relatively few strong democracies around the planet either, I certainly wouldn't include the UK (my country of origin) or the USA (vide the current presidential-nomination campaign) as shining examples. And they can't blame the coups for that.

And in each of those you have the right and the ability to vote them out. It's a flawed system but it largely stumbles along.

Its sure is, just ask the Labour Party in Scotland, they were thrashed by the SNP in the poll's..

Ask the Scottish people who voted in their referendum, the NO campaign sent a resounding message to the Scottish Nationalist.. we stay in the Union.

That's democracy in action.

[Ricardo]

And in each of those you have the right and the ability to vote them out. It's a flawed system but it largely stumbles along.

I was raised in the UK, so I do understand your utter faith in the democratic-system, perhaps it's only when you have your own right-to-vote removed (for daring to live elsewhere for 15-years) or wishes ignored (just ask any UKIP-voter in the last election), that you start to see how broken it has become. As Woody Guthrie said, in the Ballad of Pretty Boy Floyd, "some will rob you with a six-gun, and some with a fountain-pen", but that's a discussion best left for the Home Country sub-forum.

Nor do I support the current junta these days, for me they lost their integrity when they failed to return power to democracy by the end of last year, as previously promised. Looking back to PM-Sorayud, he did at least keep that promise, although nobody really gave him much credit for it back in 2007.

But, leaving aside for one moment Thailand's very own serial political-family, a democracy led by the likes of Suthep or Chalerm, Chavalit or Newin or the late Banharn, is also pretty bad, for all that it is elected. And I blame those individual people for that fact, not just the military & coups. Perhaps I ought to be more optimistic, and hope that politicians like them can slowly reform democracy, as you say.

I wish there were a way to press the re-set button on Thai democracy, with a fresh set of parties & politicians, but I don't see one. And it certainly doesn't involve a shonky new constitution, rammed down peoples throats, without any real discussion allowed.

Perhaps the politicians should have been more willing to help with the re-write ? At least there is a referendum, that's progress of a sort, the gradual recognition that any new constitution demands validation, by the people & voters themselves.

[Holy Cinema]

And in each of those you have the right and the ability to vote them out. It's a flawed system but it largely stumbles along.

I was raised in the UK, so I do understand your utter faith in the democratic-system, perhaps it's only when you have your own right-to-vote removed (for daring to live elsewhere for 15-years) or wishes ignored (just ask any UKIP-voter in the last election), that you start to see how broken it has become. As Woody Guthrie said, in the Ballad of Pretty Boy Floyd, "some will rob you with a six-gun, and some with a fountain-pen", but that's a discussion best left for the Home Country sub-forum.

Nor do I support the current junta these days, for me they lost their integrity when they failed to return power to democracy by the end of last year, as previously promised. Looking back to PM-Sorayud, he did at least keep that promise, although nobody really gave him much credit for it back in 2007.

But, leaving aside for one moment Thailand's very own serial political-family, a democracy led by the likes of Suthep or Chalerm, Chavalit or Newin or the late Banharn, is also pretty bad, for all that it is elected. And I blame those individual people for that fact, not just the military & coups. Perhaps I ought to be more optimistic, and hope that politicians like them can slowly reform democracy, as you say.

I wish there were a way to press the re-set button on Thai democracy, with a fresh set of parties & politicians, but I don't see one. And it certainly doesn't involve a shonky new constitution, rammed down peoples throats, without any real discussion allowed.

Perhaps the politicians should have been more willing to help with the re-write ? At least there is a referendum, that's progress of a sort, the gradual recognition that any new constitution demands validation, by the people & voters themselves.

UKIP are the UK's version of the Democrats here, a charming and charismatic leader, who talks a great deal of sense, but in the end, generations of steadfast support for the older parties remains, they make talk a good fight, but they will never be a party that will govern a country.

There IS a button that can be pressed in Thailand, it's called removing the absolute power from the Military and have them accountable to the laws of the country like everyone else, and for them to start respecting the democratic process, no matter how flawed or imperfect it is. 19 coups since the 1930's tells you who the main agitators and opponents of a democratic country are.

They have given themselves a get out of jail free card, despite a previous amnesty bill being the catalyst for where we are today... there is simply NO difference to either of those bills,

The Juntas amnesty goes all the way to the top, they're protected by their own people in high circles, but there's simply no knowing of what will happen when the broom sweeps clean. Hence why their doing everything they can to hold onto power for as long as they can. They're doing everything in their power, pretty similar to what Yinglucks Regime were doing.

So yes, there is a button, it's called accountability to the Government who should also be accountable to the people.

15 Principles of democracy were thrown about by a junta poster boy for the past 2 years, in that the PTP were lucky to adhere to one, well that's one more than the Junta currently achieve.

The country is in a bigger mess now than it was 2 years ago, and it's not going to get any better, any time soon.

[heybruce]

And in each of those you have the right and the ability to vote them out. It's a flawed system but it largely stumbles along.

I was raised in the UK, so I do understand your utter faith in the democratic-system, perhaps it's only when you have your own right-to-vote removed (for daring to live elsewhere for 15-years) or wishes ignored (just ask any UKIP-voter in the last election), that you start to see how broken it has become. As Woody Guthrie said, in the Ballad of Pretty Boy Floyd, "some will rob you with a six-gun, and some with a fountain-pen", but that's a discussion best left for the Home Country sub-forum.

Nor do I support the current junta these days, for me they lost their integrity when they failed to return power to democracy by the end of last year, as previously promised. Looking back to PM-Sorayud, he did at least keep that promise, although nobody really gave him much credit for it back in 2007.

But, leaving aside for one moment Thailand's very own serial political-family, a democracy led by the likes of Suthep or Chalerm, Chavalit or Newin or the late Banharn, is also pretty bad, for all that it is elected. And I blame those individual people for that fact, not just the military & coups. Perhaps I ought to be more optimistic, and hope that politicians like them can slowly reform democracy, as you say.

I wish there were a way to press the re-set button on Thai democracy, with a fresh set of parties & politicians, but I don't see one. And it certainly doesn't involve a shonky new constitution, rammed down peoples throats, without any real discussion allowed.

Perhaps the politicians should have been more willing to help with the re-write ? At least there is a referendum, that's progress of a sort, the gradual recognition that any new constitution demands validation, by the people & voters themselves.

UKIP are the UK's version of the Democrats here, a charming and charismatic leader, who talks a great deal of sense, but in the end, generations of steadfast support for the older parties remains, they make talk a good fight, but they will never be a party that will govern a country.

There IS a button that can be pressed in Thailand, it's called removing the absolute power from the Military and have them accountable to the laws of the country like everyone else, and for them to start respecting the democratic process, no matter how flawed or imperfect it is. 19 coups since the 1930's tells you who the main agitators and opponents of a democratic country are.

They have given themselves a get out of jail free card, despite a previous amnesty bill being the catalyst for where we are today... there is simply NO difference to either of those bills,

The Juntas amnesty goes all the way to the top, they're protected by their own people in high circles, but there's simply no knowing of what will happen when the broom sweeps clean. Hence why their doing everything they can to hold onto power for as long as they can. They're doing everything in their power, pretty similar to what Yinglucks Regime were doing.

So yes, there is a button, it's called accountability to the Government who should also be accountable to the people.

15 Principles of democracy were thrown about by a junta poster boy for the past 2 years, in that the PTP were lucky to adhere to one, well that's one more than the Junta currently achieve.

The country is in a bigger mess now than it was 2 years ago, and it's not going to get any better, any time soon.

"15 Principles of democracy were thrown about by a junta poster boy for the past 2 years..."

No they weren't. djjamie repeatedly made an "x principles of democracy" claim (I don't recall the number), but never stated what they were or where they came from. But djjamie is like that.

Edited April 30, 2016 by heybruce

[Srikcir]

Perhaps the politicians should have been more willing to help with the re-write ?

The re-write itself was only open to the junta-appointed CDC with pro-junta Meechai as chairman. A draft charter that must incorporate the Four Rivers draft provisions. Both PTP and Democrat politicians did take significant public objection to major draft articles with none being amended or deleted by the CDC.

Abhisit: "party executives had collected the opinions of its members most of whom felt that there are more demerits in the draft charter than its merits....the draft charter has weakened the public’s right of participation in decision-making process."

It wasn't an issue of politicians being unwilling to help. It was an issue of politicians' proposals being completely ignored except to the extent the NCPO threatened them with prison for public opposition the draft.

At least there is a referendum, that's progress

You may be getting ahead of yourself - it hasn't happened yet.

The junta was perfectly happy with the endorsement of the 1997 Constitution without a referendum.

Then in 2014 the junta abolished a previous junta-written 2011 constitution that was accepted in a referendum.

If the 2015 draft constitution is rejected in the referendum, the NCPO has the option to simply adopt it without another referendum.