Israeli forces shoot dead 16-year-old Palestinian boy and his sister

[Morch]

Was not too difficult to the Israeli security forces to neutralise a religious radical after stabbing 6 innocent LGBT people during last Gay Parade in Jerusalem.

ImageUploadedByThaivisa Connect1461818365.790252.jpg

I don't understand why a pregnant woman and a 16-year old teenager had to be killed with almost 10 rounds each...with military weapons...

Bogus comparison.

Shooting the stabber while surrounded by potential victims....yeah, great idea there.

The OP deals with a shooting which took place in way less crowded environment.

[dexterm]

After posting seven times to this thread...we are getting the idea that ole Dex does not like Israelis...

Walk a mile in the shoes of someone who lives in fear for his life on a daily basis...then tell us how you would have handled that situation...

The ages...pregnant or no...makes no difference...they approached with knives...and if you have been keeping up with the news...then you know this is the new weapon of choice for Palestinians of late...and many Jews have either been killed or injured...

The soldiers could probably used their rifle butts to fend off the apparent would be attackers...but why give them another chance to kill someone?

Nothing against Israelis at all, nor Jews. Have shared shabbat with Israeli Jews and enjoyed many a pleasant trek with Israelis.

It is the policies of the current right wing Israeli government in illegally occupying Palestinian land outside the 67 lines that I object to. This is where the murder took place.

If the cowardly IDF fears for his life, so he should..he's an invader. If he wants to feel safe, get back to your own side of the internationally accepted de facto border.

If the IDF insists on being an army of illegal occupation, I would suggest their superiors train them in the same techniques as other police and armed forces around the world...tasers, pepper spray, rubber bullets. Live ammunition should be a last resort, not a first one.

Spare us.

You have previously expressed the views that amount to defining most Israeli Jews as "racist".

You have previously expressed the views that any "aid" (in a very broad sense) given to the IDF, makes one a legitimate targets for Palestinian violence.

The IDF is not composed solely of right wing voters, or is even exclusively Israeli Jewish (quite relevant to units often manning said check point).

The IDF does not insist on occupying the West Bank, but follows government policies.

Yes to everything you write in the broad sense. Glad you did not misrepresent me and used the words "most Israeli Jews"

I have nothing personal against Israelis. I take people as I find them, Israelis included. I don't hate a nationality or religion blindly or think in stereotypes as some posters here do.

I object to the racist/religionist supremacism on which the state of Israel is based, and the extreme application of that principle by the current Netanyahu right wing government, especially in its encouragement of the IDF shoot to kill policy whereas previously they apprehended anyone they considered threatening. Their incitement has resulted in the OP tragedy and over 200 Palestinians extra judicially murdered.

Some righteous IDF bravely refuse to take part in the illegal occupation of the West Bank.

[dexterm]

So the woman waved a knife but they found it on the boy body...Israeli probably use thai police nowdays

According to the police, as the two approached, the woman's hand was buried inside her bag and his hand was behind his back. The two eventually heeded the police's call, stopping a short distance from the officers and turning away, but the woman then spun back around and pulled out the knife, throwing it directly at one of the officers. Police and security guards then shot the two.

The police found another knife identical to the one she was carrying, while a switchblade was found on the her brother's body.

http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.716623

Did the alleged thrown knife hit any of the soldiers in full body armor? Does that warrant pumping bullets into the pregnant woman and her brother who had apparently done nothing, but aid his injured sister...then refusing them medical treatment till they died?

[Scott]

One particularly inflammatory post has been removed. Please exercise care in your choice of words.

[dexterm]

It is interesting that Israel, one of the world's leading experts and exporters of security systems, never seems to install CCTV at these sensitive checkpoints or equip 2 or 3 IDF at each with tamper proof body cams as other armies and police forces around the world do.

Would be great PR for them if they did, and go some way to defending the individual actions of the soldiers on the spot in these controversial extra judicial executions. But there's an obvious reason why they do not.

Most armies that use body/helmet cams do so for operational purposes, less so for possible legal and PR issues. There is no way for an occupation army to win a media battle, regardless of actions taken. Regular checkpoints are equipped with CCTV systems.

Is not the occupation of the West Bank operational purposes? Don't police worldwide wear body cams for exactly this reason...to provide incontrovertible proof? Perhaps there would not then be such a gap between "what happened", and what "you imagine happened". You are trying to defend the indefensible.

I look forward to the release of the CCTV footage. But I am not holding my breath.

Edited April 28, 2016 by dexterm

[dexterm]

The murdered pregnant Palestinian woman, on her way to a doctor's appointment in Jerusalem, also leaves behind two orphaned young children further proof of what eye witness accounts verify: she was probably lost and panicked in fear when challenged by the IDF, with no pre meditated attempt to attack anyone.

Edited April 28, 2016 by dexterm

[Steely Dan]

The murdered pregnant Palestinian woman, on her way to a doctor's appointment in Jerusalem, also leaves behind two orphaned young children further proof of what eye witness accounts verify: she was probably lost and panicked in fear when challenged by the IDF, with no pre meditated attempt to attack anyone.

Perhaps if she want carrying the contents of the family knife drawer she wouldn't have panicked, or is that standard fare for someone on their way to a doctors appointment?

[dexterm]

The murdered pregnant Palestinian woman, on her way to a doctor's appointment in Jerusalem, also leaves behind two orphaned young children further proof of what eye witness accounts verify: she was probably lost and panicked in fear when challenged by the IDF, with no pre meditated attempt to attack anyone.

Perhaps if she want carrying the contents of the family knife drawer she wouldn't have panicked, or is that standard fare for someone on their way to a doctors appointment?

We only have the IDF psychopath's word about the alleged knife. He'd better get his story straight.

Firstly, she allegedly throws a knife at him rather than detonate her equally fictitious suicide belt. The alleged knife as far as we know did not make contact, but it was sufficient reason for him 20 meters away behind a concrete barrier wearing full body armor to pump bullets into her and her younger brother who had done nothing wrong. Still fearing for his life because of the fictitious suicide belt he leaps from safety to stand right next to her to pump more bullets in.

Even his own story doesn't hold water.

[Morch]

Quoting a Palestinian bus driver is like asking drug addict to explain why did he burgled

the house, what did you expect the Palestinian to say????

Kids, or adults for that matter, has no business being near or approaching soldiers in threatening

manners knowing full well that everybody is on knife edge and frail nerves....

Your besmirching of a Palestinian witness purely on the grounds of his ethnicity speaks volumes about your racism.

The extra judicial execution took place in the illegally occupied West Bank, when a pregnant Palestinian and her brother in their own land had to approach a checkpoint manned by foreign Israeli psychopathic thugs.

I would suggest it was the fully armed cowardly Israeli soldiers who were the ones who had no business there as an occupying force telling Palestinians where and where not they can go, then murdering them when they can't understand instructions to stop in Hebrew..the language of the invader.

Ah, the usual "besmirching". Are you claiming now that Palestinians are, as a rule, objective and accurate witnesses? Not biased or motivated in the least to alter account of events? Obviously, not much trouble applying what is whinged about with regard to the other side. Them double standards again.

As for not understanding instructions - most soldiers manning checkpoint know at least rudimentary Arabic to convey simple instructions (even more so when it comes to police and border patrol units). Most Palestinians got at least a basic grasp of Hebrew to follow them. There are also signs in Arabic, and usually other Palestinians around who know the drill. If the above is not enough, most people know better than to act in a suspicious manner when dealing with security forces.

No doubt the named Palestinian witness will be called before the thorough? independent? coroner's investigation that is bound ? to follow.

There's something rotten in the state of Israel..apologies to the Bard...when it is par for the course to execute a pregnant woman and her younger brother coming to her aid.

Signs in Arabic..whitewash in Hebrew. and not a sniff of any CCTV footage. You'd think the Israeli government would make it a priority to install them everywhere to defuse tension and avoid the constant controversy.

I am not the one making things up - hence, no idea if there will be a criminal investigation or who will be summoned. It was simply noted that your "account" of events relies on a single source (and not even the original version, at that). Said source is not renowned for reliability nor objectivity in its reports.

Completely buying into the Ma'an version is a choice. Making that choice does not turn the Ma'an report into fact, though.

I've no idea what you're on with regards to "Signs in Arabic..whitewash in Hebrew" bit. Considering the number of Palestinians passing through Kalandia, it is a miracle these supposedly poorly communicated instructions do not result in hourly shooting incidents.

The CCTVs are there and in plain view. No idea if any footage would be released, but doubt that reactions times could compete with certain posters. Going back to the first line in your post, an early release would probably not be considered "thorough".

As for "You'd think the Israeli government would make it a priority to install them everywhere to defuse tension and avoid the constant controversy." - funny you should bring this up:

Palestinian Authority, Hamas Preempt Jordanian Security Cameras on Temple Mount

http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.716570

[Morch]

They'll probably build a Monument to celebrate the latest Israeli military victory. It must engender great pride to support these heroic efforts.

No, they will most probably not.

On the other hand, successful terrorist attacks are publicly celebrated among Palestinians, families of perpetrators are given allowances by authorities, and displays of official support are not common.

[Morch]

After posting seven times to this thread...we are getting the idea that ole Dex does not like Israelis...

Walk a mile in the shoes of someone who lives in fear for his life on a daily basis...then tell us how you would have handled that situation...

The ages...pregnant or no...makes no difference...they approached with knives...and if you have been keeping up with the news...then you know this is the new weapon of choice for Palestinians of late...and many Jews have either been killed or injured...

The soldiers could probably used their rifle butts to fend off the apparent would be attackers...but why give them another chance to kill someone?

Nothing against Israelis at all, nor Jews. Have shared shabbat with Israeli Jews and enjoyed many a pleasant trek with Israelis.

It is the policies of the current right wing Israeli government in illegally occupying Palestinian land outside the 67 lines that I object to. This is where the murder took place.

If the cowardly IDF fears for his life, so he should..he's an invader. If he wants to feel safe, get back to your own side of the internationally accepted de facto border.

If the IDF insists on being an army of illegal occupation, I would suggest their superiors train them in the same techniques as other police and armed forces around the world...tasers, pepper spray, rubber bullets. Live ammunition should be a last resort, not a first one.

Spare us.

You have previously expressed the views that amount to defining most Israeli Jews as "racist".

You have previously expressed the views that any "aid" (in a very broad sense) given to the IDF, makes one a legitimate targets for Palestinian violence.

The IDF is not composed solely of right wing voters, or is even exclusively Israeli Jewish (quite relevant to units often manning said check point).

The IDF does not insist on occupying the West Bank, but follows government policies.

Yes to everything you write in the broad sense. Glad you did not misrepresent me and used the words "most Israeli Jews"

I have nothing personal against Israelis. I take people as I find them, Israelis included. I don't hate a nationality or religion blindly or think in stereotypes as some posters here do.

I object to the racist/religionist supremacism on which the state of Israel is based, and the extreme application of that principle by the current Netanyahu right wing government, especially in its encouragement of the IDF shoot to kill policy whereas previously they apprehended anyone they considered threatening. Their incitement has resulted in the OP tragedy and over 200 Palestinians extra judicially murdered.

Some righteous IDF bravely refuse to take part in the illegal occupation of the West Bank.

The usual acrobatics. So basically, you have nothing against the handful of Israeli Jews that share your views. What about the vast majority who do not....?

Sounds like one of them "some of my best friends..." excuses.

[pumpuy]

And what do you expect the Israelis to say ? Always the same lame excuses for behaving like terrorists and Nazis themselves ...!

Who are the good and the bad ? Probably both parties are bad , but the Israelis are more ugly !

And one thing more : A fact is a fact , even your pathetic rethorics cannot change this .

dexterm, on 28 Apr 2016 - 07:42, said:

torpedo1970, on 28 Apr 2016 - 07:36, said:

The boy had a knife.

the soldiers had bullet proof vests and machine guns.

the boy was shot with 7 bullets

And i guess as always we will hear the same excuse from Israel.

"we claim the right to protect our self"

i see no difference between the Israeli army and the Terrorists they are claiming to protect them self from......

Alleged to be carrying knives. Witnessess said the knives were planted later.

"A Palestinian bus driver present at the scene, Muhammad Ahmad, told Ma’an that the Israeli officer who opened fire on Maram was standing behind a cement block some 20 meters away from her at the time. The driver said it did not appear that Maram or her brother posed any threat when the officer shot them.

Palestinian local and witness to the incident Ahmad Taha told Ma’an that Israeli officers approached the two after they had been shot and had fallen to the ground before opening fire on them again “to ensure that they were dead,” adding that the officers “could have moved the two away without opening fire.”

http://www.maannews.com/Content.aspx?id=771316

Cold blooded murder by the IDF yet again.

Quoting a Palestinian bus driver is like asking drug addict to explain why did he burgled

the house, what did you expect the Palestinian to say????

Kids, or adults for that matter, has no business being near or approaching soldiers in threatening

manners knowing full well that everybody is on knife edge and frail nerves....

Edited April 28, 2016 by pumpuy

[Asheron]

The boy had a knife.

the soldiers had bullet proof vests and machine guns.

the boy was shot with 7 bullets

And i guess as always we will hear the same excuse from Israel.

"we claim the right to protect our self"

i see no difference between the Israeli army and the Terrorists they are claiming to protect them self from......

nm

Edited April 28, 2016 by Asheron

[Morch]

So the woman waved a knife but they found it on the boy body...Israeli probably use thai police nowdays

According to the police, as the two approached, the woman's hand was buried inside her bag and his hand was behind his back. The two eventually heeded the police's call, stopping a short distance from the officers and turning away, but the woman then spun back around and pulled out the knife, throwing it directly at one of the officers. Police and security guards then shot the two.

The police found another knife identical to the one she was carrying, while a switchblade was found on the her brother's body.

http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.716623

Did the alleged thrown knife hit any of the soldiers in full body armor? Does that warrant pumping bullets into the pregnant woman and her brother who had apparently done nothing, but aid his injured sister...then refusing them medical treatment till they died?

Oh, its an alleged knife when thrown, but not that alleged when "planted"? I'm not the one to claim absolute knowledge of the incident based on a single biased source. The point was merely to present another account. If the above report is addressed than the brother was carrying a knife as well, not standard practice for someone wishing to pass a check point.

I'm also not the one making concrete claims regarding the shooting being warranted - not enough information at this point. Other posters, on the other hand, try to pretend that they know how things went down. Granted, much more propaganda value in pronouncing judgments rather than waiting for further details to emerge. Same goes for alleged claims of refusing them medical treatment.

[pumpuy]

So they should shoot all pregnant Palestinian women ? They might all be suicide bombers ? Nazi !

It seems obvious they thought she was a suicide bomber. Mistakes like that happen in conflict zones. The IDF should investigate the incident.

[Steely Dan]

Regarding cctv.

Of course when push comes to shove security cameras would exonerate the Israelis and show Palestinian behavior in a bad light the vast majority of the time. I wonder if it would make some of our esteemed members happy to have all Israeli soldiers film in real time and granting access to the army of obsessive keyboard warriors. That way they could scour the footage in the hope of making a snuff movie whilst waiting for more bile to post.

Not directly related, but here is something to consider. The Israeli army has been criticized by some military experts for the inordinate care it takes in trying to avoid civilian casualties. This apparently sets a standard that's very difficult for other armies to match when fighting asymmetric wars.

http://unitedwithisrael.org/israels-military-accused-of-being-too-careful-to-avoid-civilian-casualties-in-gaza-war/

Now considering the above are we to believe the Israelis have suddenly made a complete 'U' turn and become trigger happy?

Edited April 28, 2016 by Steely Dan

[Morch]

It is interesting that Israel, one of the world's leading experts and exporters of security systems, never seems to install CCTV at these sensitive checkpoints or equip 2 or 3 IDF at each with tamper proof body cams as other armies and police forces around the world do.

Would be great PR for them if they did, and go some way to defending the individual actions of the soldiers on the spot in these controversial extra judicial executions. But there's an obvious reason why they do not.

Most armies that use body/helmet cams do so for operational purposes, less so for possible legal and PR issues. There is no way for an occupation army to win a media battle, regardless of actions taken. Regular checkpoints are equipped with CCTV systems.

Is not the occupation of the West Bank operational purposes? Don't police worldwide wear body cams for exactly this reason...to provide incontrovertible proof? Perhaps there would not then be such a gap between "what happened", and what "you imagine happened". You are trying to defend the indefensible.

I look forward to the release of the CCTV footage. But I am not holding my breath.

No. Operational purpose as in the sense of improving communication between commanders and troops on the ground, and for better debriefing with regard to such operational actions.

Some police forces use cams, some do not.

And no again. Considering the way any media submitted by the IDF or other Israeli security forces is treated, doubt there's much value there. The indefensible being all Israeli forces not equipped with cams so that you could claim media to be biased?

At least you seem to accept that sometimes there is a gap between "what happened" and what "you imagine happened".

[Asheron]

It is interesting that Israel, one of the world's leading experts and exporters of security systems, never seems to install CCTV at these sensitive checkpoints or equip 2 or 3 IDF at each with tamper proof body cams as other armies and police forces around the world do.

Would be great PR for them if they did, and go some way to defending the individual actions of the soldiers on the spot in these controversial extra judicial executions. But there's an obvious reason why they do not.

Most armies that use body/helmet cams do so for operational purposes, less so for possible legal and PR issues. There is no way for an occupation army to win a media battle, regardless of actions taken. Regular checkpoints are equipped with CCTV systems.

Is not the occupation of the West Bank operational purposes? Don't police worldwide wear body cams for exactly this reason...to provide incontrovertible proof? Perhaps there would not then be such a gap between "what happened", and what "you imagine happened". You are trying to defend the indefensible.

I look forward to the release of the CCTV footage. But I am not holding my breath.

Off topic: No they don't, a very small number of police forces wear body cams worldwide.

On topic: If you do not obey the commands of soldiers at a check point you should be very well aware that it might very well lead to you having something like 6 feet of earth on top of you. And to say stuff like "oh they spoke hebrew so she didn't understand" is just bizarre... if soldiers at a check point with raised or ready rifles spoke klingon to me i would "get" their message.

[wabothai]

According to Ha'retz newspaper, a left leaning publications, the woman is a 23 years old pregnant

and her brother that been described as a ' man ' and not a kid,

both found to have 3 knives in their belonging, one was thrown at the soldiers, both have ignored

repeated warning to back off and leave that area, those orders were ignored and more threatening

moves were initiate by the pair, at which point, they were both shot.....

the pregnant issue comes to play in fear of the woman might be strapping an explosive belt

in a guise of being with child.....

In stead of killing her the cowards might want to ask her to show her pregnant belly.

There are simply NO excuses, just plain murder, bullying and intimidation.

On a daily basis I receive clips of a friend of mine in Jordan showing Palestinians of ALL ages being harassed, humiliated, kicked, and pushed, and even killed. Shame on you all for defending these killers with their machine guns.

[Morch]

The murdered pregnant Palestinian woman, on her way to a doctor's appointment in Jerusalem, also leaves behind two orphaned young children further proof of what eye witness accounts verify: she was probably lost and panicked in fear when challenged by the IDF, with no pre meditated attempt to attack anyone.

Perhaps if she want carrying the contents of the family knife drawer she wouldn't have panicked, or is that standard fare for someone on their way to a doctors appointment?

We only have the IDF psychopath's word about the alleged knife. He'd better get his story straight.

Firstly, she allegedly throws a knife at him rather than detonate her equally fictitious suicide belt. The alleged knife as far as we know did not make contact, but it was sufficient reason for him 20 meters away behind a concrete barrier wearing full body armor to pump bullets into her and her younger brother who had done nothing wrong. Still fearing for his life because of the fictitious suicide belt he leaps from safety to stand right next to her to pump more bullets in.

Even his own story doesn't hold water.

All you have to go on is one report from a biased source, which you keep posting as verified facts. It's a bit funny and a bit sad considering the amount of whinging about "misrepresenting" your posts are made. Same goes for the "likes" by resident selective source police volunteer.

The above, btw, is not "his own" story, but a your version, made by combining bits from two different accounts.

[Morch]

According to Ha'retz newspaper, a left leaning publications, the woman is a 23 years old pregnant

and her brother that been described as a ' man ' and not a kid,

both found to have 3 knives in their belonging, one was thrown at the soldiers, both have ignored

repeated warning to back off and leave that area, those orders were ignored and more threatening

moves were initiate by the pair, at which point, they were both shot.....

the pregnant issue comes to play in fear of the woman might be strapping an explosive belt

in a guise of being with child.....

In stead of killing her the cowards might want to ask her to show her pregnant belly.

There are simply NO excuses, just plain murder, bullying and intimidation.

On a daily basis I receive clips of a friend of mine in Jordan showing Palestinians of ALL ages being harassed, humiliated, kicked, and pushed, and even killed. Shame on you all for defending these killers with their machine guns.

Before being shot, the two were ordered to stop several times but continued to approach officers and guards stationed at a drive-through checkpoint not intended for pedestrians.

According to the police, as the two approached, the woman's hand was buried inside her bag and his hand was behind his back. The two eventually heeded the police's call, stopping a short distance from the officers and turning away, but the woman then spun back around and pulled out the knife, throwing it directly at one of the officers. Police and security guards then shot the two.

The police found another knife identical to the one she was carrying, while a switchblade was found on the her brother's body.

http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.716623

[Thorgal]

It is interesting that Israel, one of the world's leading experts and exporters of security systems, never seems to install CCTV at these sensitive checkpoints or equip 2 or 3 IDF at each with tamper proof body cams as other armies and police forces around the world do.

Would be great PR for them if they did, and go some way to defending the individual actions of the soldiers on the spot in these controversial extra judicial executions. But there's an obvious reason why they do not.

Most armies that use body/helmet cams do so for operational purposes, less so for possible legal and PR issues. There is no way for an occupation army to win a media battle, regardless of actions taken. Regular checkpoints are equipped with CCTV systems.

Is not the occupation of the West Bank operational purposes? Don't police worldwide wear body cams for exactly this reason...to provide incontrovertible proof? Perhaps there would not then be such a gap between "what happened", and what "you imagine happened". You are trying to defend the indefensible.

I look forward to the release of the CCTV footage. But I am not holding my breath.

Off topic: No they don't, a very small number of police forces wear body cams worldwide.

On topic: If you do not obey the commands of soldiers at a check point you should be very well aware that it might very well lead to you having something like 6 feet of earth on top of you. And to say stuff like "oh they spoke hebrew so she didn't understand" is just bizarre... if soldiers at a check point with raised or ready rifles spoke klingon to me i would "get" their message.

IDF always used excessive force. A policy that has been endorsed by the Israeli government.

Apparently the use of 'warning shots' are forbidden by the IDF.

Moreover, ethic values of any soldier should at least include not to harm a (pregnant) woman or child.

OP doesn't really reflect to the false rhetoric that the IDF is the most moral army in the world. In fact, any army who had to retreat during multiple previous military operations will adopt an unhealthy level of frustration and excessive force.

Resulting in use of excessive force on innocent civilians...

Edited April 28, 2016 by Thorgal

[Morch]

Is not the occupation of the West Bank operational purposes? Don't police worldwide wear body cams for exactly this reason...to provide incontrovertible proof? Perhaps there would not then be such a gap between "what happened", and what "you imagine happened". You are trying to defend the indefensible.

I look forward to the release of the CCTV footage. But I am not holding my breath.

Off topic: No they don't, a very small number of police forces wear body cams worldwide.

On topic: If you do not obey the commands of soldiers at a check point you should be very well aware that it might very well lead to you having something like 6 feet of earth on top of you. And to say stuff like "oh they spoke hebrew so she didn't understand" is just bizarre... if soldiers at a check point with raised or ready rifles spoke klingon to me i would "get" their message.

IDF always used excessive force. A policy that has been endorsed by the Israeli government.

Apparently the use of 'warning shots' are forbidden by the IDF.

Moreover, ethic values of any soldier should at least include not to harm a (pregnant) woman or child.

OP doesn't really reflect to the false rhetoric that the IDF is the most moral army in the world. In fact, any army who had to retreat during multiple previous military operations will adopt an unhealthy level of frustration and excessive force.

Resulting in use of excessive force on innocent civilians...

The IDF does not always use excessive force.

Use of warning shots is not forbidden by the IDF.

There is no clear indication soldiers knew woman to be pregnant.

A pregnant attacker intent on inflicting harm should not be harmed, says poster.

The last bit is just rambling fantasies

[Thorgal]

The murdered pregnant Palestinian woman, on her way to a doctor's appointment in Jerusalem, also leaves behind two orphaned young children further proof of what eye witness accounts verify: she was probably lost and panicked in fear when challenged by the IDF, with no pre meditated attempt to attack anyone.

Perhaps if she want carrying the contents of the family knife drawer she wouldn't have panicked, or is that standard fare for someone on their way to a doctors appointment?

The Palestinian 'knife attack' syndrome has been debunked so many times here on TV.

All of the knife attacks were coincidentally perpetrated in cities were new illegal Israeli settlements are built.

No attacks in coastal cities around Gaza, Haifa, Jaffa, Ashkelon,etc...

No attacks around the Sinai desert.

No attacks at the border cities close to Lebanon, Egypt, Syria and Jordania.

Latest new illegal Israeli settlements are planned or already built in (East) Jerusalem, Hebron, Jenin, Betlehem, Ramallah,...: coincidentally all attacks with knifes originated from those affected regions.

If knife attacks equals rage, frustration and revolt, we have to conclude that the Palestinian anger is geographically conditionated...

[dexterm]

It is interesting that Israel, one of the world's leading experts and exporters of security systems, never seems to install CCTV at these sensitive checkpoints or equip 2 or 3 IDF at each with tamper proof body cams as other armies and police forces around the world do.

Would be great PR for them if they did, and go some way to defending the individual actions of the soldiers on the spot in these controversial extra judicial executions. But there's an obvious reason why they do not.

Most armies that use body/helmet cams do so for operational purposes, less so for possible legal and PR issues. There is no way for an occupation army to win a media battle, regardless of actions taken. Regular checkpoints are equipped with CCTV systems.

Is not the occupation of the West Bank operational purposes? Don't police worldwide wear body cams for exactly this reason...to provide incontrovertible proof? Perhaps there would not then be such a gap between "what happened", and what "you imagine happened". You are trying to defend the indefensible.

I look forward to the release of the CCTV footage. But I am not holding my breath.

No. Operational purpose as in the sense of improving communication between commanders and troops on the ground, and for better debriefing with regard to such operational actions.

Some police forces use cams, some do not.

And no again. Considering the way any media submitted by the IDF or other Israeli security forces is treated, doubt there's much value there. The indefensible being all Israeli forces not equipped with cams so that you could claim media to be biased?

At least you seem to accept that sometimes there is a gap between "what happened" and what "you imagine happened".

Seems to me Operation Occupy Palestinian Land is the only one the IDF are ever involved in. If the supposedly most moral army in the world has nothing to hide, what's the problem videoing their activities? We could all see them at work being moral.

Interesting article about the human rights group Videre Est Credere founded by an ex IDF who was so disgusted with what his government asked him to do in the West Bank, he refused to serve there which landed him in jail, and was inspired to establish this hidden camera human rights group to video abuses.

"I spent a lot of the time in the West Bank and it shocked me what we were doing there - checkpoints in crowded areas in the city, raids on Palestinian homes in the middle of the night, scaring small children," the 45-year-old said.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/04/secretive-human-rights-group-fights-abuses-video-160415211009923.html

In the last paragraph the you I was referring to is you, not me. Maybe you missed the irony.

Edited April 28, 2016 by dexterm

[Morch]

Perhaps if she want carrying the contents of the family knife drawer she wouldn't have panicked, or is that standard fare for someone on their way to a doctors appointment?

The Palestinian 'knife attack' syndrome has been debunked so many times here on TV.

All of the knife attacks were coincidentally perpetrated in cities were new illegal Israeli settlements are built.

No attacks in coastal cities around Gaza, Haifa, Jaffa, Ashkelon,etc...

No attacks around the Sinai desert.

No attacks at the border cities close to Lebanon, Egypt, Syria and Jordania.

Latest new illegal Israeli settlements are planned or already built in (East) Jerusalem, Hebron, Jenin, Betlehem, Ramallah,...: coincidentally all attacks with knifes originated from those affected regions.

If knife attacks equals rage, frustration and revolt, we have to conclude that the Palestinian anger is geographically conditionated...

The certainty in which this nonsense is posted....almost endearing:

American Graduate Student Killed in Stabbing Rampage Near Tel Aviv

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/09/world/middleeast/jaffa-israel-stabbing-attacks.html?_r=0

70-year-old Man Stabbed in Netanya; Three People Hurt in Rishon Letzion Attack

http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.683774

To point out a few examples. There goes "debunked".

No attacks around the Sinai desert? Kinda figures as it is under Egypt's control for quite some time now.

No attacks around Gaza? Gee...might have something to do with having a fenced border and army presence.

Most attacks being carried out in the West Bank and Jerusalem is a function of access, nothing more.

[Jingthing]

Yeah, it's kind of shocking to see such obvious and easily proven blatant FALSEHOODS posted so "sincerely" as truths. Wow!

[Scott]

Off-topic, inflammatory, troll posts and replies removed.

[Morch]

Most armies that use body/helmet cams do so for operational purposes, less so for possible legal and PR issues. There is no way for an occupation army to win a media battle, regardless of actions taken. Regular checkpoints are equipped with CCTV systems.

Is not the occupation of the West Bank operational purposes? Don't police worldwide wear body cams for exactly this reason...to provide incontrovertible proof? Perhaps there would not then be such a gap between "what happened", and what "you imagine happened". You are trying to defend the indefensible.

I look forward to the release of the CCTV footage. But I am not holding my breath.

No. Operational purpose as in the sense of improving communication between commanders and troops on the ground, and for better debriefing with regard to such operational actions.

Some police forces use cams, some do not.

And no again. Considering the way any media submitted by the IDF or other Israeli security forces is treated, doubt there's much value there. The indefensible being all Israeli forces not equipped with cams so that you could claim media to be biased?

At least you seem to accept that sometimes there is a gap between "what happened" and what "you imagine happened".

Seems to me Operation Occupy Palestinian Land is the only one the IDF are ever involved in. If the supposedly most moral army in the world has nothing to hide, what's the problem videoing their activities? We could all see them at work being moral.

Interesting article about the human rights group Videre Est Credere founded by an ex IDF who was so disgusted with what his government asked him to do in the West Bank, he refused to serve there which landed him in jail, and was inspired to establish this hidden camera human rights group to video abuses.

"I spent a lot of the time in the West Bank and it shocked me what we were doing there - checkpoints in crowded areas in the city, raids on Palestinian homes in the middle of the night, scaring small children," the 45-year-old said.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/04/secretive-human-rights-group-fights-abuses-video-160415211009923.html

In the last paragraph the you I was referring to is you, not me. Maybe you missed the irony.

Nope. As evident from periodical whinging about IDF actions in Syria and Lebanon. Pretending not to grasp the meaning in which "operational" was meant is grasping at straws. I never claimed the IDF to be the most moral army in the world, and my views on that were aired on previous topics. From grasping at straws to introducing straw-man argument.

The linked interview does not have much to do with either the OP or the insisting that the IDF ought to equip its soldiers with cams. The inability to focus on the topic is acknowledged, not welcomed. But if you wish to bring up irony, then by all means - any Al Jazeera piece dealing with human rights outside of Qatar qualifies.

[chilli42]

Israel's policy regarding this territory is dead wrong. As a consequence it is continuously elevating frustration, tension and fear. Is it any wonder that when these factors come together that death is the result? Usually the death of the Palestinians as they are a bit short on weapons of war.