Thai/falang Kids Learning 3rd Language

[Nepal4me]

If dad is English/American/Ozzie/Canuck etc and mom is Thai, it's pretty well a given that the kids will be 100% bilingual, i.e. dad speaks English at home and they go to int'l school or some school that teaches English at a respectable level. Naturally Thai will be their first lingo due to environment.

My question is and it's something my wife and I are discussing. How would we give our child a 3rd language and what would be the best one?

This question isn't really directed at folks that are German or French etc. because their kids would have more of a natural route to learn 3 languages, Eng/Thai and German or French (for my example) from dad (or mom).

We are thinking Mandarin would be the best language in terms of the future. If in 20 years, China keeps going like it is going and our kids are coming out of Uni with Chinese skills, how cool would that be for them, what an advantage in life to have the gift of languages.

If it's Mandarin, and we're living in BKK, would it make sense to teach the child the written Chinese? It's not difficult for kids in China to learn the written language as they learn it at school and have environmental influence. So would it be too over-the-top to try to have your child learn the written aspect of Mandarin?

Please don't flame me as being too much of

[qualtrough]

We are doing the same with our two daughters. I speak English to them and Mom speaks Thai to them, so they are doing well on the English/Thai front. They also take Chinese and seem to enjoy that. They don't get enough instruction right now, but at some point we will try to increase that. Most children can pick up languages very easily under the right circumstances, and if they learn it before they reach puberty they can speak it with a native accent. Once past puberty it is very rare for anyone to be able to do that. I didn't start learning any foreign languages until I was 14 and always wish I had learned when I was much younger. You will be doing your kid a big favor.

Edited November 4, 2006 by qualtrough

[Johpa]

If dad is English/American/Ozzie/Canuck etc and mom is Thai, it's pretty well a given that the kids will be 100% bilingual, i.e. dad speaks English at home and they go to int'l school or some school that teaches English at a respectable level. Naturally Thai will be their first lingo due to environment.

It is never a given that the kids will become bilingual as it does take some commitment by the parents, especially the parent of the non-dominant language. But it is quite normal for kids to have a "mother-tongue" spoken in the home and a "native-tongue" spoken outside the home with their peers.

But there is nothing wrong with exposing kids to a third language. If you are really serious, try to find an immersion school in Mandarin. I have been amazed at the language proficiency of young kids who were entered into some of the elementary school Spanish immersion programs here in the US. Save the English language International Schools for high school.

[leisurely]

Good idea, just make sure the child has enough time to enjoy his life. A child who goes to school with my youngest (5) has Thai as mother tongue, ESL lessons at school and before school learns Japanese. Far too much in my opinion. This is in addition to piano and violin classes too. Rather extreme no?

[ronw]

my daughter, aged 21 months,speaks and understands Thai,(from mum),English. (from me),northern thai,(from g'parents) and Shan(from the kids in the village where we live).

there is a chinese village nearby, and I am looking there for some children about her age ,or older,who she can socialise with.

I spent many years trying to teach deaf children, and have come to realise that ,as far as language acquisition is concerned,there is no such state as "too young", and no such thing as "too many languages"....

[chownah]

Sometime in the not too distant future....two business associates will be conversing in perfect English.....one a born and bred Chinese national and one a Thai/European.

Chinese national: Oh! how interesting! You can speak Chinese! We don't speak it much......how did it come about that you learned Chinese?

Thai/European: Oh, Mom and Dad thought it would help me in the world of business when I was older so they made me study it.

They both laugh heartily at the cute foibles of parenthood.

Chownah

[qualtrough]

Sometime in the not too distant future....two business associates will be conversing in perfect English.....one a born and bred Chinese national and one a Thai/European.

Chinese national: Oh! how interesting! You can speak Chinese! We don't speak it much......how did it come about that you learned Chinese?

Thai/European: Oh, Mom and Dad thought it would help me in the world of business when I was older so they made me study it.

They both laugh heartily at the cute foibles of parenthood.

Chownah

Nice dream, hope you are right, but in the meantime...

My desire to expose my daughters to different languages is not solely driven by a desire to expand their job opportunities. Knowing a language is a window to another culture and expands your horizons greatly. I doubt there are many children who regret that they learned a foreign language or two when they were young. I resented being exposed to Spanish in grades 4 and 5, but am now thankful for even that minimal exposure. I was not particularly fond of French and German lessons when I lived in Germany as a teenager, but now wish I had had more. I am not in favor of extremely early education or overloading children with work and projects, but I think in our current situation the addition of third language instruction is not too much of a burden.

[qualtrough]

my daughter, aged 21 months,speaks and understands Thai,(from mum),English. (from me),northern thai,(from g'parents) and Shan(from the kids in the village where we live).

there is a chinese village nearby, and I am looking there for some children about her age ,or older,who she can socialise with.

I spent many years trying to teach deaf children, and have come to realise that ,as far as language acquisition is concerned,there is no such state as "too young", and no such thing as "too many languages"....

I agree with your sentiments. You are in an ideal situation and making the most of it-good for you.

[Sing_Sling]

Though I don't come from racially/ethnically/geographically mixed parentage, I did grow up in a different country every three to four years due to my father's job.

Disadvantage - few long-time friendships

Advantage - Multilingual

A multi-lingual child turns into a multi-lingual adult. Children will learn as much as they can, and if that includes 3 or 4 languages . . . no problem. Keeping them fluent is a different matter.

[Ijustwannateach]

Best to get languages done when they're young, as many of us know how much extra work it is when you're older- plus having several languages as a child seems to help with adult language acquisition for new languages. Your kids are lucky to have such farsighted parents.

There's an old Japanese saying that may apply to you, Sing Sling-

"If you love your children, make them travel."

[terry57]

Best to get languages done when they're young, as many of us know how much extra work it is when you're older- plus having several languages as a child seems to help with adult language acquisition for new languages. Your kids are lucky to have such farsighted parents.

There's an old Japanese saying that may apply to you, Sing Sling-

"If you love your children, make them travel."

for a child to be able to travel is a great privilage. even more so to be able to spend real time in a country.

the child will grow up to apreaciate other cultures and people in general and this is a huge bonus in life.

actually to be able to travel at any stage in ones life is a huge privilage and the most boring and predudice people i have ever known have never travelled and have no interest to do.

the road is long people, and keep on rolling as the rewards are infinate.

cheers

[sbk]

It's not difficult for kids in China to learn the written language as they learn it at school and have environmental influence. So would it be too over-the-top to try to have your child learn the written aspect of Mandarin?

Just curious where you came up with the idea that written chinese is not difficult for native speakers?

I lived with an affluent Chinese family in Taiwan (mandarin speaking) with two small children and saw that their children struggled with reading characters. According to, not only my native speaking Mandarin teacher at university, but also the parents of the children where I lived, as well as my students at school, learning to read chinese characters is not easy and is on going task that will last for years. Most Chinese children start with the "be pe me fe" phonetic characters and then progress to learning the real thing.

So, yes, I think Mandarin is a good idea but given the complexities of the language I doubt (regardless of China's power) that it will ever be a universal language. Also, given that Thai is a tonal language Chinese would not be a stretch linguistically for your children to learn.

But, I am an advocate of learning a foreign language for children, the younger they start the easier it will be to learn.

[Old Man River]

My child goes to an international school in Bangkok. She is bi lingual in English and Thai. The international school she attends also makes French compulsory. I have argued that Mandarin makes a whole lot more sense, but to no avail. I can't understand this. Am I missing something?

[Sing_Sling]

There's an old Japanese saying that may apply to you, Sing Sling-

"If you love your children, make them travel."

Perfect, isn't it! It may not always have been enjoyable switching and swapping languages, food, cultures, climates etc . . . but I believe it has made me a better person for it - also my parents were quite unorthodox in that they enrolled us in local schools (had to be local private schools due to some of the places we lived).

Terry - absolutely.

Written Chinese is very difficult even for native speakers and those that have it as a teaching language. There are simply so many characters and meanings to make it ever so tough, one can see it with the local kids here - - - this is where the Japanese simplified it . . . but they now have three main alphabets . . . (Imagine the Donz with three to destroy)

[bkkmei]

Hi

I think the speaking will be easy to pick up. As well as both being tonal languages, there are some grammatical similarities as well.

as sbk points out though, the writing may be a bit of a hard slog!

anyhow best of luck!

[GuestHouse]

I don't think it really matters what second (third), or shall we say non-home languages children learn, the important issue as I see it is the mental exercise learning and using languages brings.

In that respect I think the means by which the language is being taught is very important and of course the chance the child has to use their new language outside of the classroom.

I thin that if, on the basis of future employment, I were to choose (for Euro Thai Kids) between another Asian language and another European language I would choose a European language, I would choose a European language.

I understand the argument that China is a growing economic power and Chinese will be a growing business language (I don't believe it is ever going to surpass English), but I think the 'opportunity gap' created will be more than filled by Chinese/Thais.

A child who is Euro/Thai has a unique access to European language and culture, something the Thais have never been able to bridge well and something that will always give rise to a need for Thai/European Language skills.

However, I have a caveat. With the exception of a very few jobs that require language ability (basically translators/interpreter/dual language lawyers) Language skills are hopelessly undervalued, they are a very minor consideration in recruitment.

So I think it comes back to 'How does the language help the child's development?'.

As a child I learned Latin, a language I could see no earthly benefit in learning, it has on the contrary provided me with immense pleasure and insight throughout my adult life.

It is I think about development, develop a child's mind while s/he is young and forget about finding job opportunities - Kids never do what you expect them to do anyway.

[Nepal4me]

For some reason the end of my OP was truncated. It was:

Please don't flame me as being too much of a demanding daddy etc. It's simply a question of

1. Would it be a good idea to teach a 3rd language?

2. Would Mandarin be most ideal?

3. If not Mandarin, which one and why?

4. If Mandarin, writing too?

Ok, 4 questions then............

Thanks,

Comments on the responses so far below.

Judging by the replies, my meaning was quite well understood.

There were a couple of other points raised that I didn't mention but are really valid, least they seem very valid to me.

1. Simply the development of the child's mind. Just the process of having a young open mind that is in its key development stage to have to go through the exercise of understanding different languages and their different ways of communicating information you would think would be very helpful for their learning as they grow up.

2. The cultural knowledge gained by understanding another language would certainly be a mind opener.

Chownah, your point is well taken but I think you're 100 years early (altho I could be off by give or take 70 years or so). Realistically China is not going to get totally Englishized (just made that word up I think) in the next 20 years. It is simply not close to that level now, and is really not strongly going in that direction. Traveling through China as I have done for work very frequently for 10 years, it is apparent to me that we are a long long way from having Chinese with good fluency or even a good understanding of English.

The school that teaches French as an additional language I guess is fine if that's what the parents feel is appropriate or important. I agree with you, French would be less important in terms of the next language after Eng/Thai. I would prefer Mandarin/Japanese/Spanish/Arabic above French. Ok, maybe would be important but certainly not in the top 5 or more. I would try to find a school with different languages.

Guesthouse, I think your point on mental development is great and your point on Thais not bridging the gap to Europe well is interesting. Never thought of that before. My thought was on a Europe language being less important because English fluency is getting better much faster in Europe (except France of course) than it is in China/Japan/Korea etc.

I think the comments on learning written Chinese are along what I was thinking. It would have to be very very difficult. My comment that it's not too difficult for Chinese kids in China to learn it comes as a result of my questioning colleagues in China and Taiwan. They say it's difficult but they all just do it as it's part of life there. Actually I know a number of Chinese Singaporeans that say they have forgotten most of Chinese characters so that tells you it would really be very difficult.

Thanks for all your response..........but please don't stop there. I'd love to hear more.

[qualtrough]

Nepal4me--If the kids are going to study Chinese at all they should most definately study reading and writing as well. There is a word for people who cannot read or write a language. It is 'illiterate', and it is not a compliment!

[Farma]

What about Korean? They're big trading partners with a lot of countries and not commonly taught in schools. It would give the kids an advantage later on in life.

[Patex]

Both parents are fluent in Thai and English = The child will grow up fully bilingual! Any other language would be the SECOND language.

The parents are only fluent in their native language = The child will learn both languages half! Any other language would confuse the kid even more!

my daughter, aged 21 months,speaks and understands Thai,(from mum),English. (from me),northern thai,(from g'parents) and Shan(from the kids in the village where we live).

there is a chinese village nearby, and I am looking there for some children about her age ,or older,who she can socialise with.

:D

Btw, N4m,

How is your 9-y.o. nurse doing?

[Alf Witt]

I looked into this subject a while back. It is correct that between the ages of 3 and 10 kids are virtual language learning machines, but it is important to recognise the essential element which is day to day "meaningful exposure" to the languages. So if you really want your child to learn a third language get a native Mandarin speaking maid or nanny or let the child play regularly with Chinese speaking children. Book learning or classes will not achieve the same results.

[chownah]

Has anyone considered teaching their children math instead of another language...or analytical skills? I'm serious.

Chownah

[sbk]

One thing to remember when considering Mandarin is that it is only the official govt language. You would also need to learn Shanghainese and Hokkien to get far in business in China. These are not dialects but rather completely different languages.

As for being illiterate, well, perhaps it needs to be understood that true literacy in Chinese characters is a life-long pursuit. And the math idea, well, I am not so sure that math is something a child can just pick up like they can another language. Analytical skills are something that must be developed over time, don't you think?

If you just want them to learn a language to expand their linguistic horizons then I would suggest a non-tonal language that is not too similar to English.

[Sing_Sling]

Korean? Then much rather Japanese.

Mandarin is the one combining factor for all Chinese and will allow you to communicate with almost all Chinese.

Hokkien, Hakka, Teochew, Cantonese, Sichuan, Shanghainese etc are dialects which are still prevalent but as Mandarin is taught in school, this is equal to a lingua franca of China. The same goes for HK, Singapore, Malaysia etc . . . you will find Mandarin the one main ingredient in this language soup.

Friends of ours here have hired a Mainland Chinese nanny to take care of their child during the day, and she speaks to him only in Mandarin as neither parent does.

Speaking is not the biggest hurdle, reading and writing are the main problems and many younger english-educated Chinese here and in Malaysia can't.

I wouldn't call it illiterate as this would not be the main language of communication, the mother tongue would be English and/or Thai.

[suiging]

First up Mandarin will get you anywhere in China. A billion Chinamen can not be wrong ? ( or Wong for that matter )

If the tones and the three thousand plus characters you need for a simple newspaper prove a problem, go with Spanish. Making a big come back and will be almost obligatory in the USA in the very near future.

[LaoPo]

One thing to remember when considering Mandarin is that it is only the official govt language. You would also need to learn Shanghainese and Hokkien to get far in business in China. These are not dialects but rather completely different languages.

That's true for the older generations but most business people all over China speak Mandarin with each other.

Simply because otherwise they wouldn't understand each other.

The generation(s) up to, say, 35-40 years of age, all learned/studied, obligatory, Mandarin at school.

All schools/universities in China teach in Mandarin nowadays.

The (many) other Chinese languages will slowly die out in the future.

If I were to advice parents with young children I would say that at least English is a necessity and next to that (apart from the -local- language like Thai) Spanish and Mandarin.

Those are the three main worldwide languages and if parents wish their children to be successful in life, speaking those languages will be a major plus for them in their careers.

But I know, not all children have a feeling to study foreign languages.

LaoPo

[Nepal4me]

Nepal4me--If the kids are going to study Chinese at all they should most definately study reading and writing as well. There is a word for people who cannot read or write a language. It is 'illiterate', and it is not a compliment!

Since they will be fluent in Thai and English, both reading and writing. They will be very far from illiterate even if they can speak Mandarin.

Both parents are fluent in Thai and English = The child will grow up fully bilingual! Any other language would be the SECOND language.

The parents are only fluent in their native language = The child will learn both languages half! Any other language would confuse the kid even more!

my daughter, aged 21 months,speaks and understands Thai,(from mum),English. (from me),northern thai,(from g'parents) and Shan(from the kids in the village where we live).

there is a chinese village nearby, and I am looking there for some children about her age ,or older,who she can socialise with.

Btw, N4m,

How is your 9-y.o. nurse doing?

Khun Playtex, didn't you note at the top, I said "Germans need not respond"

I looked into this subject a while back. It is correct that between the ages of 3 and 10 kids are virtual language learning machines, but it is important to recognise the essential element which is day to day "meaningful exposure" to the languages. So if you really want your child to learn a third language get a native Mandarin speaking maid or nanny or let the child play regularly with Chinese speaking children. Book learning or classes will not achieve the same results.

This is an idea that we've discussed also. Not sure how difficult or easy it would be to find a Mandarin speaking nanny.

Has anyone considered teaching their children math instead of another language...or analytical skills? I'm serious.

Chownah

I'm certain we've all thought about the importance of kids learning math............but that would be another thread.

Sadly it seems that most people here have tended to agree, writing would be too difficult.

Of course the reality is as one poster mentioned, the kids will never grow as the parents hope and plan, they all diverge into interests of their own liking and maybe or maybe not will be the direction the parents planned for them.

All we can do as good parents is to try to give as many options as possible to the kids and let them flourish as they will. This discussion was just about languages but we plan to be very active in their lives and be involved in their swimming lessons, Tae kwan do lessons, dance, etc etc and hopefully one or more of these activities will stay with them for their lifetimes.

[qualtrough]

The parents are only fluent in their native language = The child will learn both languages half! Any other language would confuse the kid even more!

The idea that a child will only half learn a language if the parents are each only fluent in one language is not only wrong, but illogical as well. Where did you get that idea?

In my study of linguistics I learned that the idea that an additional language or two will confuse a child and cause harm were erroneous. If you have any evidence to the contrary please share it with us.

Edited November 6, 2006 by qualtrough

[LaoPo]

The parents are only fluent in their native language = The child will learn both languages half! Any other language would confuse the kid even more!

The idea that a child will only half learn a language if the parents are each only fluent in one language is not only wrong, but illogical as well. Where did you get that idea?

In my study of linguistics I learned that the idea that an additional language or two will confuse a child and cause harm were erroneous. If you have any evidence to the contrary please share it with us.

In my youth and in my country we learned 3 different foreign languages, next to our own, starting at 7 years of age at school; 2 obligatory and 1 free-of-choice but most of us did that one also.

We just had/have to learn languages since we are a small country. Thailand has about 4 times our population but believe me, worldwide Thailand is/has a small country/language.....in comparison to the world-languages, English, Mandarin and Spanish

So, I'm not sure where you studied your linguistics; in an English speaking country perhaps ?

I find it astonishing that the vast majority of native English-speaking people, including business-people still rely on their own language and do not speak any other language.

But, of course also the governments are to be blamed for that.

That's not very clever...it would give them so much advantage.

LaoPo

[qualtrough]

The parents are only fluent in their native language = The child will learn both languages half! Any other language would confuse the kid even more!

The idea that a child will only half learn a language if the parents are each only fluent in one language is not only wrong, but illogical as well. Where did you get that idea?

In my study of linguistics I learned that the idea that an additional language or two will confuse a child and cause harm were erroneous. If you have any evidence to the contrary please share it with us.

In my youth and in my country we learned 3 different foreign languages, next to our own, starting at 7 years of age at school; 2 obligatory and 1 free-of-choice but most of us did that one also.

We just had/have to learn languages since we are a small country. Thailand has about 4 times our population but believe me, worldwide Thailand is/has a small country/language.....in comparison to the world-languages, English, Mandarin and Spanish

So, I'm not sure where you studied your linguistics; in an English speaking country perhaps ?

I find it astonishing that the vast majority of native English-speaking people, including business-people still rely on their own language and do not speak any other language.

But, of course also the governments are to be blamed for that.

That's not very clever...it would give them so much advantage.

LaoPo

LaoPo, I stated that I have seen no evidence that the study of additional languages at a young age confused children. Not sure what that has to do with the size of Thailand, the number of Thai speakers in the world, or in what country I studied linguistics??