In Bangkok, but Uk resident

[Blue flare]

Hi Guys,

I cannot seem to find the answer to this anywhere...

I have moved here from UK, I am here on retirement visa, have Thai wife and house.

Apart from physically being here, everything is still UK based, so I am still in UK as far as everyone in authority knows, and I am here on extended 'holiday'

I do not intend to return to UK, but for me its just easier to have everything in UK.

My question is, how long can I do this? is there a limit, is there a problem with this, what are you other British expats doing?

[colinneil]

90 days

[Blue flare]

You have misread my post, I am not talking about how long I can stay here.

I have a retirement visa, and I know all about the 90 days rules...

[IMA_FARANG]

Depends on what you mean and how long you have been away from the U.K.

For example. you have forfieted your chance to vote in the Brexit referendum if you have been outside the U.K. for more than 15 years.

[thai3]

You need to be in the UK 6 months in a year to be a resident and have access to the NHS etc and have your pension increased. Just tell them nothing and never use the embassy for anything. The UK govt is not your friend.

Edited May 11, 2016 by thai3

[AlexRich]

The UK HRMC issued a paper [statutory Residence Test] recently that shows how they determine whether a person is resident in the UK for tax purposes, or not, as the case may be. The rules are quite complex, so worth going through carefully.

If you intend to stay in Thailand (or outside the UK) you are supposed to complete a form telling the Revenue that you have left the country, from memory it is a P85. You send them that together with a tax return up to the day when you left the UK.

As far as your UK assets are concerned, they are still liable to UK tax. For example, rental profits, dividends, bank interest, capital gains. You will not be able to contribute to an ISA, as you are no longer resident.

You will probably still be sent a tax return every year. Other than that, I don't think there is much more to be concerned about.

[Blue flare]

I don't think the UK govt is anyone's friend

I have been here a year now, apart from a passport stamp showing I left via Heathrow, that's it.

I have Uk business paying me dividends and rental properties which I pay tax on dealt with by my accountant, money is transferred from my UK bank to my Thai bank.

So are we saying I can just leave as is for 5-10yrs and relax with a beer?

Thanks Alex for the tax points

[Familyonthemove]

My understanding is that you have to make a positive effort to become a non-UK resident, as this is normally something people try to do if they don't want to pay tax in UK. Then if you are no longer taxed in UK, you also lose your rights to free NHS etc. But to do this you need to show that you have severed all ties to UK.

Pension is different as this is an earned benefit based on time spent paying NI.

So if you have property and family in UK and you make regular visits to UK, then I think you are still a UK resident. Just an address in UK may be enough?

I may be wrong ..... but I don't think there's a time limit or anything that automatically triggers a non-resident status?

But there is a time limit for UK visits that triggers a return to resident status for people who became non-resident. 90 days?

Also - if you have an ex-pat contract that's based in Thailand, this can mean that you are now resident in Thailand and so you lose your NHS cover in UK. That's why I have health insurance for UK as well as for Thailand.

Edited May 11, 2016 by Familyonthemove

[AlexRich]

I don't think the UK govt is anyone's friend

I have been here a year now, apart from a passport stamp showing I left via Heathrow, that's it.

I have Uk business paying me dividends and rental properties which I pay tax on dealt with by my accountant, money is transferred from my UK bank to my Thai bank.

So are we saying I can just leave as is for 5-10yrs and relax with a beer?

Thanks Alex for the tax points

I think you can relax. But best to read the HMRC guidance that I mentioned above. The key thing to focus on is residency. The rules are quite tight, and being in the UK for more than 30 days [first 3 tax years] could still render you as resident for tax purposes. From what you have said so far, you are not in Thailand for tax purposes, just to relax, and no assets are being tucked away off shore. In your case, I think you are fine. Just be careful to check with your accountant if you pay into an ISA.

As long as you are paying your UK taxes correctly you have little to be concerned about. It is almost as if you are, in fact, still resident in the UK.

[colinneil]

You have misread my post, I am not talking about how long I can stay here.

I have a retirement visa, and I know all about the 90 days rules...

I have not misread your post.

If you reside outside the UK for more than 90 days you are considered a non UK resident.

I had a problem a few years ago with the taxman, and was told you have been resident outside UK more than 90 days

you are now considered a non resident.

Edited May 11, 2016 by colinneil

[Familyonthemove]

You have misread my post, I am not talking about how long I can stay here.

I have a retirement visa, and I know all about the 90 days rules...

I have not misread your post.

If you reside outside the UK for more than 90 days you are considered a non UK resident.

I had a problem a few years ago with the taxman, and was told you have been resident outside UK more than 90 days

you are now considered a non resident.

Yes - I had understood the same and thought's that's what you meant by 90 days ....... but recently there were additional tests added to the 90 day rule. Even if you visit the UK for under 90 days you can still be a UK resident for tax purposes if you have significant ties to the UK. Property, address, spouse in UK can over-ride the 90 day rule.

So for the OP this all works in his favour - as he wants to remain a UK resident and he pays tax in UK. I think the reason the OP found it hard to get useful info on his question is that most information is about the other way around .... i.e how can you not be counted as a UK resident.

[AlexRich]

You have misread my post, I am not talking about how long I can stay here.

I have a retirement visa, and I know all about the 90 days rules...

I have not misread your post.

If you reside outside the UK for more than 90 days you are considered a non UK resident.

I had a problem a few years ago with the taxman, and was told you have been resident outside UK more than 90 days

you are now considered a non resident.

Hi Colin

That is not the case. Check out the HMRC guidelines on residency, they published them recently to try to give some firm rules on this subject - a very complex subject that few understand.

If you are in the UK for 183 days or more in a tax year you are automatically resident. So, I could spend 100 + days in Thailand and still be resident in the UK. Note - but the rules are much more convoluted than this simple example.

It would be near impossible to explain it here, other than to advise to read the HMRC document carefully.

[Blue flare]

Excellent information guys, Thanks, that's what I love about this forum.

Yes, everything is still in Uk, my family, my business, my official address, I can handle paying UK taxes for now, so I will stay as is, and have maybe a five year holiday

This post was also triggered by my trying to take money from from my private pension, only to be told I can't because I am not resident in UK??? Simply because I mentioned I was CURRENTLY in Thailand

But maybe that's a subject for another post

[oxo1947]

I don't think the UK govt is anyone's friend

I have been here a year now, apart from a passport stamp showing I left via Heathrow, that's it.

I have Uk business paying me dividends and rental properties which I pay tax on dealt with by my accountant, money is transferred from my UK bank to my Thai bank.

So are we saying I can just leave as is for 5-10yrs and relax with a beer?

Thanks Alex for the tax points

As long as you have someone picking up whatever mail that is sent-----your willing to let the UK license lapse at a certain age....etc etc...... yes Blue Flare......stay under the radar.....put your feet up & just wish that they get 10 ft of snow over there for the next 8 months so you can collect on the extra cold allowance etc.

And most importantly.................tell no one....................

[Blue flare]

Ha Ha! Wise words of wisdom from a senior member.

Back under the radar before you are spotted.....

[AlexRich]

You have misread my post, I am not talking about how long I can stay here.

I have a retirement visa, and I know all about the 90 days rules...

I have not misread your post.

If you reside outside the UK for more than 90 days you are considered a non UK resident.

I had a problem a few years ago with the taxman, and was told you have been resident outside UK more than 90 days

you are now considered a non resident.

Yes - I had understood the same and thought's that's what you meant by 90 days ....... but recently there were additional tests added to the 90 day rule. Even if you visit the UK for under 90 days you can still be a UK resident for tax purposes if you have significant ties to the UK. Property, address, spouse in UK can over-ride the 90 day rule.

So for the OP this all works in his favour - as he wants to remain a UK resident and he pays tax in UK. I think the reason the OP found it hard to get useful info on his question is that most information is about the other way around .... i.e how can you not be counted as a UK resident.

That is correct. I am in the opposite camp. My question was how could I become non-resident for tax purposes as a UK citizen. It is a complex subject, and you have to be very careful about the number of days you spend in the UK.

The OP is okay as he does not wish to be non-resident. I'm not sure how it goes with NHS, pension, etc. So no idea if there are implications here.

Perhaps someone else would know?

[laolover88]

Have done this for years before! Not now!. Keep a UK address/property. Preferably have a Council Tax Bill. Fill in your HMRC tax return and Pay your UK tax. Tell no government department anything. Don't claim any benefit. Keep UK Bank accounts. Just tell them you are going abroad so you don't have problems with use of cards. There are lots of things that require you to be a UK "resident", not the same as "domicile", and most of those require a UK address. Can't see why you have a stamp in your passport. Is there a Thai Non O Visa in it?

[Blue flare]

Iaolover, thanks for that, well I fit all your criteria apart from council tax bill as house is rented out, passport stamped with Thai Non O visa yes.

[laolover88]

Iaolover, thanks for that, well I fit all your criteria apart from council tax bill as house is rented out, passport stamped with Thai Non O visa yes.

Your Non O will only be stamped with an "Entry Until" from Thailand. I don't think UK government is sufficiently joined up that your comings and goings to the UK from or to anywhere will be reported to HMRC!! It is the UK address that is critical.

[partington]

Almost everything written here is slightly misunderstood or not quite true.

Firstly residence in the UK for tax purposes is easy to work out because HMRC give you a complete guide on how to work it out. It has nothing whatsoever to do with proving links to other countries, or paying tax in other countries.

This guide is here http://tools.hmrc.gov.uk/rift/screen/SRT+-+Combined/en-GB/summary?user=guest

For simple cases the general conditions are these (they may differ in a year where you have just left or returned, termed a tax residence "split year"-you can look this up separately):

"Work out your residence status

Whether you’re UK resident usually depends on how many days you spend in the UK in the tax year (6 April to 5 April the following year).

You’re automatically resident if either:

• you spent 183 or more days in the UK in the tax year
• your only home was in the UK - you must have owned, rented or lived in it for at least 91 days in total - and you spent at least 30 days there in the tax year

You’re automatically non-resident if either:

• you spent fewer than 16 days in the UK (or 46 days if you haven’t been classed as UK resident for the 3 previous tax years)
• you work abroad full-time (averaging at least 35 hours a week) and spent fewer than 91 days in the UK, of which no more than 30 were spent working " [https://www.gov.uk/tax-foreign-income/residence]

You can see from this that the "30 days" condition only has any relevance if you have no home anywhere else, and so is irrelevant to anyone renting a place in Thailand, or renting out their UK property (it is not then your "home").

Secondly, if you fulfill the conditions for non-residency for tax purposes, and you have no other UK income, dividends, interest and capital gains (except for the specific case of selling houses) are TAX-FREE to non-residents (as long as no personal allowance is claimed). This is called "disregarded income" and has been discussed on a number of threads here.

Thirdly, entitlement to NHS services has nothing whatever to do with whether you are considered resident for tax purposes, which is worked out according to different criteria. The NHS is indeed a residence-based, not contribution-based system, but you are entitled to it from day 1 of entry to the UK as long as you can provide proof that you are intending to stay permanently, and this is a different standard and condition of proof from the "resident for tax purposes" assessment.

So, for example, a person arriving back in the UK after 5 years absence ( or a new immigrant of the sort hated by raving righties, like a Polish plumber) would under most circumstances not be a resident for tax purposes until they had been in the UK for 183 full days. However on presentation of reasonable proof that they intend to live permanently in the UK (job contract, rental agreement, etc., etc.) they would be entitled to NHS services from day 1.

Edited May 11, 2016 by partington

[Scouse Twoccer]

You need to be in the UK 6 months in a year to be a resident and have access to the NHS etc and have your pension increased.

Nonsense on both points about access to the NHS and pension payments.

I can return to the UK tomorrow and get NHS treatment, I haven't been living there, or paid tax there, since 1994 and haven't physically been there since 2004. Prior to that I paid NIC for 25 years.

I am still British, have a British passport and a NI number. I will be eligible for a state pension this year and if I am living in certain countries (not Thailand) I will also be eligible for cost of living pension increases.

[partington]

You need to be in the UK 6 months in a year to be a resident and have access to the NHS etc and have your pension increased.

Nonsense on both points about access to the NHS and pension payments.

I can return to the UK tomorrow and get NHS treatment, I haven't been living there, or paid tax there, since 1994 and haven't physically been there since 2004. Prior to that I paid NIC for 25 years.

I am still British, have a British passport and a NI number. I will be eligible for a state pension this year and if I am living in certain countries (not Thailand) I will also be eligible for cost of living pension increases.

Not true. You have to establish that you are permanently resident in the UK to get NHS treatment-it is not connected with any contributions you have made.

Even if you were able to get treatment on the NHS, this would be because you got away with it as they didn't check your status, not because you are actually entitled to treatment. (EDIT:This refers to hospital treatment, GP visits are still free to all..for now.)

The NHS website clearly says this: http://www.nhs.uk/NHSEngland/AboutNHSservices/uk-visitors/moving-to-england/Pages/moving-to-england-from-the-eea.aspx

"The NHS operates a residence-based healthcare system and not every person is entitled to free NHS treatment in England. Provision of free NHS treatment is on the basis of being ordinarily resident and is not dependent upon nationality, payment of UK taxes, national insurance (NI) contributions, being registered with a GP, having an NHS number or owning property in the UK. Ordinarily resident means, broadly speaking, living in the UK on a lawful and properly settled basis for the time being.

If you are not ordinarily resident in the UK, you are considered to be an overseas visitor and may be charged for NHS hospital services. It is strongly recommended that you take out sufficient health insurance to cover your stay."

Edited May 11, 2016 by partington

[Thainess]

Now that you've gone and confessed in a public forum, you can't do it at all. The Police will already be waiting at the airport with a sign on it saying "Blue Flare" next time you return to the UK.

[Blue flare]

Guess I will have to change my name (again) maybe I will call myself 'Yellow Square'

Oh! Hang on, I should not have published that......

[rocketboybkk]

The op is just another bad example of someone who wants to reside in another country but still receive the benefits the UK offer 'just in case'

Disgusts me

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[laolover88]

The op is just another bad example of someone who wants to reside in another country but still receive the benefits the UK offer 'just in case'

Disgusts me

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Why not?. He is on a retirement visa. He has probably paid into a superannuation fund for years and paid National Insurance. Did you do that? Plenty more things to be disgusted with, like you.

[Blue flare]

Not at all, having only been here a year, I am hardly ready to sell all of my uk assets and bring the money here to no doubt be ripped off.

I do not intend to return to uk, not even for the free healthcare, having used what's available here, I am more than happy

Over time I will 'settle' here more, what's wrong with doing it slowly?

[AlexRich]

You're still paying tax in the UK, which is more than many residing there full-time do, so I wouldn't feel bad about using the NHS if you need to. Not to mention the no doubt many years of paying tax in the past.

[Blue flare]

No doubt someone will now complain about my saying "getting ripped off" so I will make it clear, you can get ripped off anywhere....even here in Thailand....shock!

[rijit]

Interesting thread

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