With Hiroshima, Obama goes where predecessors stayed away

[webfact]

With Hiroshima, Obama goes where predecessors stayed away
By BRADLEY KLAPPER and KEN MORITSUGU

WASHINGTON (AP) — When President Barack Obama tours Hiroshima's haunting relics of nuclear warfare, he will be making a trip that past administrations weighed and avoided. For good reason: The hollowed core of the city's A-Bomb Dome and old photos of charred children are sure to rekindle questions of guilt and penitence for World War II's gruesome brutality.

Obama's visit later this month already is stirring debate on both sides of the Pacific about the motivations and justifications for the nuclear attacks in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Anything he says will be sharply scrutinized in the U.S., Japan and beyond. Anything resembling an apology could become a wedge issue in the U.S. presidential campaign and plunge Obama into the complicated politics of victimhood among Japan and its Asian neighbors.

"I don't have any problem with him going, but there is nothing to apologize for," said Lester Tenney, a 95-year-old American survivor of the 1942 Bataan Death March, when the Japanese marched tens of thousands of Filipino and U.S. soldiers to prison camps, and hundreds to their deaths.

Forty-two years ago, a White House aide suggested President Gerald Ford visit the city where 140,000 people were killed in the inferno on Aug. 6, 1945. A senior adviser, Gen. Brent Scowcroft, vetoed the idea: "It could rekindle old animosities in Japan at a time when we are striving for new relationships."


Asked in 2008 if he might go, President George W. Bush was noncommittal. In the end, it took 65 years for a U.S. ambassador to attend the city's annual memorial service. Secretary of State John Kerry traveled there last month.

Obama won't say sorry, U.S. officials have emphasized repeatedly since announcing the trip. Instead of revisiting the fateful decision to drop the bombs, the president will "shine a spotlight on the tremendous and devastating human toll of war" and "honor the memory of all innocents who were lost," said Ben Rhodes, Obama's deputy national security adviser.

In some ways, Obama has it easier than his predecessors. Japanese survivors, known as "hibakusha," have long refrained from demanding an apology, seeking to mobilize Hiroshima's revered sites for the causes of pacifism and denuclearization. Even if Obama's effort to reduce America's arsenal has stalled, most Japanese support his much-recited preference for a nuclear-free world and last year's arms-control deal with Iran.

Nevertheless, Ian Buruma, a professor at Bard College and author of "Year Zero: A History of 1945," said visiting Hiroshima is risky because of the lack of consensus in the U.S. or Japan about the bombings.

Many Japanese see the attacks as atrocities; others view them as punishment for Japan's hostile acts, which included conquering much of Asia and launching the sneak attack on Pearl Harbor on Dec. 7, 1941, that led the U.S. into the war. And in the U.S., too, the debate rages 71 years after "Little Boy" and "Fat Man" fell from the sky.

A majority of Americans justify the bombings for hastening the war's end. Historians are split. Buruma said camps include those who believe President Harry Truman, barely sworn in, failed to stop "bureaucratic momentum" toward using a weapon that took so long to develop. Others argue U.S. leadership mainly wanted to intimidate the Soviet Union.

"I don't think there will ever be clarity," he said.

Japan's debate often has made it hard for U.S. presidents to visit, Buruma said.

Nationalists put forward the idea that the atomic bombs "evened out" Nazi-allied Japan's wartime atrocities, he said. The war in the Pacific killed millions across Asia, including perhaps 14 million Chinese, and Japan was responsible for chemical weapons attacks, widespread torture, forced labor and sexual slavery. American deaths topped 100,000; a quarter-million were wounded.

Meanwhile, left-wing Japanese groups sought to incorporate Hiroshima into their propaganda of Soviets and communists as forces for peace, and the Americans as warmongering imperialists, Buruma said.

With time, however, these movements largely receded as the U.S.-Japanese alliance matured.

"Think about it: The White House announces a visit to a place where the United States incinerated a city and over 100,000 people, stating clearly that it is not going to apologize," said Jennifer Lind, professor of government at Dartmouth University. "In most relationships, this would trigger outrage —not excitement_among the other country. People would be criticizing their leader as selling out."

Still, Lind saw Obama making a "very liberal move" that will open him up to criticism. Disarmament is a partisan issue, she said, because conservatives emphasize the centrality of nuclear arms to U.S. national security policy and most Americans see the atomic bombings of Japan as having ultimately saved lives.

That is not the dominant narrative in Japan, whose reluctance to broach its own wartime record is often compared unfavorably to the "Vergangenheitsbewaeltigung," or responsibility for the past, that is a lynchpin of Germany's post-1945 identity. Japan has offered various apologies for its wartime conduct, but conservative Prime Minister Shinzo Abe's approach to issues such as comfort women has angered neighbors anew.

For China, the war started four years before Pearl Harbor when Japanese forces pushed into the country's heartland. No one knows how many died. Many Chinese believe Japan has never shown true contrition, which shapes its view of Obama's trip.

"Japan's right-wing forces have always been trying to whitewash the country's cruel, heartless and reckless role as an invader during World War II," the Global Times, a nationalistic tabloid, said in an editorial this week, criticizing Obama for allowing Japan to play victim.

That view is shared by some in South and North Korea, where resentment lingers from Japan's brutal 35-year colonial rule of the peninsula. Hundreds of thousands of Koreans were conscripted to fight for Japan, consigned to slave-labor conditions, and forced or deceived into prostitution.

"Japan invited the nuclear attack," South Korea's mass-circulation JoongAng Ilbo newspaper said.

___

Moritsugu reported from Tokyo, Chris Bodeen contributed from Beijing and Hyung-jin Kim reported from Seoul, South Korea.



-- (c) Associated Press 2016-05-13

[arunsakda]

Queue the right-wing noise machine accusing Obama of completing his so-called "apology tour". A fanciful bit of rubbish that only occured in their own minds only.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Steely Dan]

Queue the right-wing noise machine accusing Obama of completing his so-called "apology tour". A fanciful bit of rubbish that only occured in their own minds only.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yes how dare they deny liberals their talking point that not enough U.S servicemen died during WW2.

[Boon Mee]

Queue the right-wing noise machine accusing Obama of completing his so-called "apology tour". A fanciful bit of rubbish that only occured in their own minds only.

Every time Obama goes overseas he's seen bowing and scraping - apologizing for America's behavior.

Shameful.

[craigt3365]

Queue the right-wing noise machine accusing Obama of completing his so-called "apology tour". A fanciful bit of rubbish that only occured in their own minds only.

Every time Obama goes overseas he's seen bowing and scraping - apologizing for America's behavior.

Shameful.

Where did he apologize? Link or you are trolling.

[Boon Mee]

Queue the right-wing noise machine accusing Obama of completing his so-called "apology tour". A fanciful bit of rubbish that only occured in their own minds only.

Every time Obama goes overseas he's seen bowing and scraping - apologizing for America's behavior.

Shameful.

Where did he apologize? Link or you are trolling.

Too many examples to cite but here's a couple:

https://theconservativetreehouse.com/2016/01/13/iran-humiliates-u-s-president-obama-apologizes-and-thanks-them-isis-to-use-footage-in-next-propaganda-effort/

This site compiles the most flagrant ones:

http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2009/06/barack-obamas-top-10-apologies-how-the-president-has-humiliated-a-superpower

[Jingthing]

This visit is the right thing to do and it's about time.

He is not apologizing.

[Baerboxer]

Queue the right-wing noise machine accusing Obama of completing his so-called "apology tour". A fanciful bit of rubbish that only occured in their own minds only.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yes how dare they deny liberals their talking point that not enough U.S servicemen died during WW2.

Had those 2 bombs not been dropped many more Allied servicemen would have died, many more POW's would have been murdered, tortured and abused, and who knows what other atrocities would have been committed by a desperate military regime.

Japan was never really brought to book and has never itself shown any remorse. No sane person would criticize the use of those bombs.

[craigt3365]

In none of those instances has Obama used the word "apologize". These sites are dramatizing things a bit.

I love the description from one of the sites:

Rag Tag Bunch of Conservative Misfits

Very credible source!

Love this review of the other one:

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Heritage_Foundation

Like many conservative think tanks, it is full of unbelievable amounts of hot air, as evidenced in this quote, which also serves as a window into the corrupt quixotic soul of the organization:
Liberation is at hand.... A paradigm-shattering revolution has just taken place... This revolution has been so sudden and sweeping that few in Washington have yet grasped its full meaning... the entire human outlook... will change... Once this shift takes place... we will be able to advance a true Hayekian agenda, including... radical spending cuts,^%5B2%5D the end of the public school monopoly, a free market health-care system, and the elimination of the family-destroying welfare dole. Unlike 1944, history is now on the side of freedom.
—former Republican Majority Leader Dick Armey, in a 1994 issue of Policy Review

Wow...

[ggt]

Obama never misses a chance to put the US on trial for what he views as past sins...what a guy...

[IAMHERE]

I look at it as a Victory Visit, not gloating but he'll for sure have a good meal.

Those bombs saved Northern Japan from being owned by Russia. If Japan had not surrendered there would be two Japans today.

[arjunadawn]

"Obama goes where predecessors stayed away..."

The white house has stated Obama will not apologize. So, it must be asked, why would Obama go where his predecessors would not? Better, why did the predecessors stay away?

Obama's motivation is implicit in the past president's action, or lack. They stayed away because there was nothing to be gained for the US, and perhaps something could be lost. Its self evident!

Therefore, WH disassembly aside, we can easily deduce why Obama goes (irrespective of the disingenuous protests of his staff).

Admitting to apology or not, Obama goes because America has nothing to gain by him going.

[jesimps]

Queue the right-wing noise machine accusing Obama of completing his so-called "apology tour". A fanciful bit of rubbish that only occured in their own minds only.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yes how dare they deny liberals their talking point that not enough U.S servicemen died during WW2.

Had those 2 bombs not been dropped many more Allied servicemen would have died, many more POW's would have been murdered, tortured and abused, and who knows what other atrocities would have been committed by a desperate military regime.

Japan was never really brought to book and has never itself shown any remorse. No sane person would criticize the use of those bombs.

Good post. I lived in Japan for a couple of years and became very fond of them. They couldn't do enough for me. However they were inhuman during WW2 and deserved the twin bombings. It shortened the war and prevented many more of our own from dying. They were given the option of surrendering but they refused.

[jesimps]

Obama never misses a chance to put the US on trial for what he views as past sins...what a guy...

Bit like our own Jeremy "They gave the police a good hiding" Corbyn. It's a lefty trait. They're renowned for despising their own country.

Bit like some of the posters on here.

Edited May 13, 2016 by jesimps

[Scott]

Off-topic posts and replies removed.

Continue at your own peril. Enough off-topic trolling.

[Jingthing]

If it was a white right wing president doing the things Obama has done, nobody would call it an apology tour. They could call it enlightened diplomacy.

[Trouble]

This visit is the right thing to do and it's about time.

He is not apologizing.

75th Anniversary of Pearl Harbor this December and large memorial service planned (as few survivors remaining). Let's see if Abe shows up. If he does then Obama's visit worth it. If not, what was the point of Obama's visit? Is this some merit making for his legacy? While supposedly not an apology, many (Japanese) will see that way. It seems just a pointless trip for some stagecraft in the waning days of his presidency. While the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki caused tremendous death, it was Truman's decision to make at the time and no one should second guess his decision which did, in fact, end the war.

Edited May 13, 2016 by Trouble

[Jingthing]

I'm sorry you don't see the point. The point is obvious. It's about nuclear weapons. They shouldn't be used again. Ever. DUH!

[mrwebb8825]

I really have tried to give this guy the benefit of the doubt on a few things, especially when Cruz was leading the way to a government shutdown, but this is just wrong. Never have I heard that the Japanese apologized for Pearl Harbor and the thousands that died there while they were falsely promoting peace talks in DC.

And Clinton defends this guy as a great president? Wonder what his approval rating is now.

[Boon Mee]

I really have tried to give this guy the benefit of the doubt on a few things, especially when Cruz was leading the way to a government shutdown, but this is just wrong. Never have I heard that the Japanese apologized for Pearl Harbor and the thousands that died there while they were falsely promoting peace talks in DC.

And Clinton defends this guy as a great president? Wonder what his approval rating is now.

Have you ever heard an Asian ever apologise for anything?

Especially Thais?

[Jingthing]

People are being unreasonable here.

An American president was going to visit that site someday.

It's about time.

He is not going to apologize. Stop spinning that lie.

What do the right wingers expect him to say to show he isn't apologizing?

Hi there, I'm not apologizing ... neener neener neener.

[craigt3365]

I really have tried to give this guy the benefit of the doubt on a few things, especially when Cruz was leading the way to a government shutdown, but this is just wrong. Never have I heard that the Japanese apologized for Pearl Harbor and the thousands that died there while they were falsely promoting peace talks in DC.

And Clinton defends this guy as a great president? Wonder what his approval rating is now.

Have you ever heard an Asian ever apologise for anything?

Especially Thais?

The Japanese sure have:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_Japan

Here's but one:

• April 29, 2015: Prime Minister Shinzo Abe, during the first speech of a Japanese prime minister at a Joint session of the United States Congress, stated "deep repentance" for Japan's actions during World War II.^[52]

[arunsakda]

This is true and contemporary Japanese governments should probably just stop apologising as the Asian victims will never accept it anyway. The Imperial Japanese were brutal, had no concern for laws of war, and guilty of atrocities but this was not the fault of the civilian population.

Obama is visiting Hiroshima and will not apologize. The remaining Hibakusha and especially the Abe administration are not asking for an apology.

There are history books quoting original sources but nobody has the time or reason to read them, the victors only need historical revisionism to make them feel superior. Study Einstein, study Leo Szilard and Oppenheimer. The idea of 500,000 allied casualties has no basis in fact and comes from a 1947 Harpers magazine article quoting Henry Stimson that is complete bs, still one has 99% right-wingers quoting this to this day. Dropping the bomb was not needed and even if you argue it was, the second bomb was a gratuitous coup de grace unmactched in modern brutality.

The most important FACT to remember is that MOST of Trumans' own Admirals and Generals advised against using the atomic bomb. Including LeMay and Halsey, who openly considered the Japanese as subhuman.

The decision was completely Political, to threaten Stalin, racist, and of NO practical military necessity.

The Japanese had been suing for peace for a year only demanding the Emperor remain untouched. They were neutralized and on their knees.

In the end they got what they wanted. MacArthur rehabilitated Emperor Showa as some kind of victim (to be a figurehead in opposition to Communism), although the Emperor was just as complicit as Tojo and should have faced justice.

Most likely the end of a rope. Sorry but there is so much proof to this it cannot be ignored.

There have been many books written about this. Dropping of Atom bombs on the cities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki was a terrible unneeded tragedy and never to happen again is the sincere desire of the Hibakusha and most of the worlds decent people.

Edited May 15, 2016 by arunsakda

[chuckd]

This is true and contemporary Japanese governments should probably just stop apologising as the Asian victims will never accept it anyway. The Imperial Japanese were brutal, had no concern for laws of war, and guilty of atrocities but this was not the fault of the civilian population.

Obama is visiting Hiroshima and will not apologize. The remaining Hibakusha and especially the Abe administration are not asking for an apology.

There are history books quoting original sources but nobody has the time or reason to read them, the victors only need historical revisionism to make them feel superior. Study Einstein, study Leo Szilard and Oppenheimer. The idea of 500,000 allied casualties has no basis in fact and comes from a 1947 Harpers magazine article quoting Henry Stimson that is complete bs, still one has 99% right-wingers quoting this to this day. Dropping the bomb was not needed and even if you argue it was, the second bomb was a gratuitous coup de grace unmactched in modern brutality.

The most important FACT to remember is that MOST of Trumans' own Admirals and Generals advised against using the atomic bomb. Including LeMay and Halsey, who openly considered the Japanese as subhuman.

The decision was completely Political, to threaten Stalin, racist, and of NO practical military necessity.

The Japanese had been suing for peace for a year only demanding the Emperor remain untouched. They were neutralized and on their knees.

In the end they got what they wanted. MacArthur rehabilitated Emperor Showa as some kind of victim (to be a figurehead in opposition to Communism), although the Emperor was just as complicit as Tojo and should have faced justice.

Most likely the end of a rope. Sorry but there is so much proof to this it cannot be ignored.

There have been many books written about this. Dropping of Atom bombs on the cities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki was a terrible unneeded tragedy and never to happen again is the sincere desire of the Hibakusha and most of the worlds decent people.

" The idea of 500,000 allied casualties has no basis in fact and comes from a 1947 Harpers magazine article quoting Henry Stimson that is complete bs, still one has 99% right-wingers quoting this to this day."

From the link below:

"The Joint Chiefs of Staff estimated that Olympic alone would cost 456,000 men, including 109,000 killed. Including Coronet, it was estimated that America would experience 1.2 million casualties, with 267,000 deaths.

Staff working for Chester Nimitz, calculated that the first 30 days of Olympic alone would cost 49,000 men.MacArthur’s staff concluded that America would suffer 125,000 casualties after 120 days, a figure that was later reduced to 105,000 casualties after his staff subtracted the men who when wounded could return to battle.

General Marshall, in conference with President Truman, estimated 31,000 in 30 days after landing in Kyushu. Admiral Leahy estimated that the invasion would cost 268,000 casualties. Personnel at the Navy Department estimated that the total losses to America would be between 1.7 and 4 million with 400,000 to 800,000 deaths. The same department estimated that there would be up to 10 million Japanese casualties. The ‘Los Angeles Times’ estimated that America would suffer up to 1 million casualties."

More here: http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/world-war-two/the-pacific-war-1941-to-1945/operation-downfall/

This particular right winger will continue to use the 1,000,000 casualty figure. This link and many others will support it.

[JAG]

Queue the right-wing noise machine accusing Obama of completing his so-called "apology tour". A fanciful bit of rubbish that only occured in their own minds only.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yes how dare they deny liberals their talking point that not enough U.S servicemen died during WW2.

Had those 2 bombs not been dropped many more Allied servicemen would have died, many more POW's would have been murdered, tortured and abused, and who knows what other atrocities would have been committed by a desperate military regime.

Japan was never really brought to book and has never itself shown any remorse. No sane person would criticize the use of those bombs.

My Father was an infantryman in 14th Army. They had just cleared the Japanese from Burma, and were preparing to advance through Malaya when the dropping of the Atomic Bombs ended the war. Given the statistics, his chances of surviving the campaign in Malaya would have been slim. I would not have been born.

Now there are some who may consider that a plus - but you will understand why I do not criticize the decision to drop the bomb. Regret yes, but criticize no.

[thaihome]

..

The most important FACT to remember is that MOST of Trumans' own Admirals and Generals advised against using the atomic bomb. Including LeMay and Halsey, who openly considered the Japanese as subhuman.

...

Indeed, it is a FACT that many of the people you mention wrote afterwards that they did not agree with the decisions to drop the bombs, but at the time of the decision, there is not a shred of proof that any of them objected.

They were more then happy to let Truman make the decision and then later write they disagreed. Many of them later entertained thoughts of running for president as republicans. That was the politics of the decision.

History is funny that way...

TH

Edited May 15, 2016 by thaihome