Condo Transfer costs -before or after I kick the bucket

[user7643446845]

My Thai wife will inherit my condo.

In relation to the cost of transfer (taxes) is there any difference if I transfer when I am alive or let due process occur after my death

[trogers]

The differences are as follow:

1. Making a will would allow her to hold on to her rights without paying any taxes twice should she decide to sell it later.

2. What if she goes before you do?

[Langsuan Man]

Depends !

If it is in a farang name she will either have to sell it to another farang, who will have to remit the funds from overseas, within a year to keep it in a farang quota, or she can just go to the Land Office and have it transferred into her name and loose the "farang" quota designation

My advice would be to sell it to a farang since it will be more valuable that way

If it is owned in a company name I think that the company can be legally closed upon your death for a small fee. For you to close a company legally while your are still alive it can range any where from 20,000 to 50,000 THB depending upon who does it

But as stated above, make sure there is a will to expedite the process

[12DrinkMore]

Depends !

If it is in a farang name she will either have to sell it to another farang, who will have to remit the funds from overseas, within a year to keep it in a farang quota, or she can just go to the Land Office and have it transferred into her name and loose the "farang" quota designation

My advice would be to sell it to a farang since it will be more valuable that way

If it is owned in a company name I think that the company can be legally closed upon your death for a small fee. For you to close a company legally while your are still alive it can range any where from 20,000 to 50,000 THB depending upon who does it

But as stated above, make sure there is a will to expedite the process

Although I will never go down the company route, but I wonder what happens?

The foreigner will only have a maximum 49% of the shares, so even if Miss Nung inherits them she will not have a majority, unless she also has a few shares.

Also some of these companies are constructed so that the foreigner has the sole signing rights. Are these inheritable? Or do the remaining shareholders suddenly become authorised signatories?

If the condo is in the foreign quota, what is the timescale to transfer to the name of a living person?

[user7643446845]

Depends !

If it is in a farang name she will either have to sell it to another farang, who will have to remit the funds from overseas, within a year to keep it in a farang quota, or she can just go to the Land Office and have it transferred into her name and loose the "farang" quota designation

My advice would be to sell it to a farang since it will be more valuable that way

If it is owned in a company name I think that the company can be legally closed upon your death for a small fee. For you to close a company legally while your are still alive it can range any where from 20,000 to 50,000 THB depending upon who does it

But as stated above, make sure there is a will to expedite the process

You have raised some interesting points.

The condo is in foreign name.

As I see it there is nothing to stop her not transferring to any new name. This assumes that she intends to live there. Possibly she may sell in say 20 Years after my death. Maybe then she can sell at that time to a foreigner -i.e the condo is never in her name -in the simple sense.

Obviously a lawyer would be required to validate my statement.

As an aside

There seems to be a suggestion that a condo in a company name is somehow second class status.

In the case where I would bequeth my condo to say my son-then it seems to me that company ownership is ideal. I would just have to ensure that my son was the managing director with all the voting rights(bedfore I kicked the bucket)

That way there is no need to bring funds into Thailand and no need to sell it as the land office is not involved.

The downside is the cost of audit. Not much of a problem if the beneficiairy planned to rent it out full time.

Edited May 14, 2016 by Cellarvee

[KittenKong]

The condo is in foreign name.

As I see it there is nothing to stop her not transferring to any new name. This assumes that she intends to live there. Possibly she may sell in say 20 Years after my death. Maybe then she can sell at that time to a foreigner -i.e the condo is never in her name -in the simple sense.

Obviously a lawyer would be required to validate my statement.

As far as I know she has to do something with it within 1 year of your demise. Either sell it (to a farang or a Thai) or put it in her own name. Either way the transfer duty will be the same.

The only real question is whether she would want to keep it or sell it. If she would want to sell it then it would probably be better to leave it in your farang name as this might increase the value as mentioned, though in many buildings it would make no difference at all.

As an aside

There seems to be a suggestion that a condo in a company name is somehow second class status.

In the case where I would bequeth my condo to say my son-then it seems to me that company ownership is ideal.

It all depends on your circumstances. Many farangs (me included) would not even look at company-name property.

[hdkane]

The differences are as follow:

1. Making a will would allow her to hold on to her rights without paying any taxes twice should she decide to sell it later.

2. What if she goes before you do?

could you elaborate a bit on point 1? do you mean she could just hold onto the property, based on the will, without formally transferring it to his/her name? and then pay taxes once when the condo is sold to another individual? how long can he/she hold onto the property without transferring it to their own name? thanks...

[hdkane]

The differences are as follow:

1. Making a will would allow her to hold on to her rights without paying any taxes twice should she decide to sell it later.

2. What if she goes before you do?

could you elaborate a bit on point 1? do you mean she could just hold onto the property, based on the will, without formally transferring it to his/her name? and then pay taxes once when the condo is sold to another individual? how long can he/she hold onto the property without transferring it to their own name? thanks...

sorry...folks already answered my questions...thanks so much

[Langsuan Man]

You have raised some interesting points.

The condo is in foreign name.

As I see it there is nothing to stop her not transferring to any new name. This assumes that she intends to live there. Possibly she may sell in say 20 Years after my death. Maybe then she can sell at that time to a foreigner -i.e the condo is never in her name -in the simple sense.

Obviously a lawyer would be required to validate my statement.

As an aside

There seems to be a suggestion that a condo in a company name is somehow second class status.

In the case where I would bequeth my condo to say my son-then it seems to me that company ownership is ideal. I would just have to ensure that my son was the managing director with all the voting rights(bedfore I kicked the bucket)

That way there is no need to bring funds into Thailand and no need to sell it as the land office is not involved.

The downside is the cost of audit. Not much of a problem if the beneficiairy planned to rent it out full time.

It is not a suggestion that a condo in a company name is somehow second class status; it is a fact

Reason being that there are other alternatives for condos and that is the foreign quota option. There is no such provision for houses, only for condo's due to the condo law, which is the exception for foreigners to own "property" in Thailand, and is also the reason for their being more valuable

There is no benefit for a Thai to own a condo in a company name, since by law they can own it outright. As far as her being able to sell it in the future under the foreign quota that would be completely dependent upon the ratios (49% / 51%) changing over the course of time. Unfortunately the chances of that happening are small and would require Land Office intervention and the import of funds from outside of Thailand for the change in the chanote to the foreign quota

There of course is the small possibility that, like during the Asian Economic Crisis back in 1977, the Thai government would suspend the 49% / 51% rule but that is extremely remote and was probably a once in a lifetime event

[user7643446845]

You have raised some interesting points.

The condo is in foreign name.

As I see it there is nothing to stop her not transferring to any new name. This assumes that she intends to live there. Possibly she may sell in say 20 Years after my death. Maybe then she can sell at that time to a foreigner -i.e the condo is never in her name -in the simple sense.

Obviously a lawyer would be required to validate my statement.

As an aside

There seems to be a suggestion that a condo in a company name is somehow second class status.

In the case where I would bequeth my condo to say my son-then it seems to me that company ownership is ideal. I would just have to ensure that my son was the managing director with all the voting rights(bedfore I kicked the bucket)

That way there is no need to bring funds into Thailand and no need to sell it as the land office is not involved.

The downside is the cost of audit. Not much of a problem if the beneficiairy planned to rent it out full time.

It is not a suggestion that a condo in a company name is somehow second class status; it is a fact

Reason being that there are other alternatives for condos and that is the foreign quota option. There is no such provision for houses, only for condo's due to the condo law, which is the exception for foreigners to own "property" in Thailand, and is also the reason for their being more valuable

There is no benefit for a Thai to own a condo in a company name, since by law they can own it outright. As far as her being able to sell it in the future under the foreign quota that would be completely dependent upon the ratios (49% / 51%) changing over the course of time. Unfortunately the chances of that happening are small and would require Land Office intervention and the import of funds from outside of Thailand for the change in the chanote to the foreign quota

There of course is the small possibility that, like during the Asian Economic Crisis back in 1977, the Thai government would suspend the 49% / 51% rule but that is extremely remote and was probably a once in a lifetime event

I can only assume that you have misread my post.

Consider the senario that I intend to bequeth my condo (with say an appraised value of 5M Baht) to my UK heir and it agreed that the condo wiill be further bequethed to my Heir's off spring -ad infinitum.The purpose of this arrangement is all about future rental income -ad infinitum. Obviously a rental agent would be involved-ad infinitum

Then the condo in a company name is a far superior arrangement as compared to a foreign owned condo. With a foreigned condo my heir will have to find £100,000 in order to transfer to his name legally. That would impossible!

The company owned condo has no such limitations.

Then

[WorkingTourist]

With a foreigned condo my heir will have to find £100,000 in order to transfer to his name legally. That would impossible!

The company owned condo has no such limitations.

With the company they will inherit yearly accounting and auditing fees. Probably doesn’t take long for these to amount to 100,000 baht (I assume you meant baht above).

[12DrinkMore]

With a foreigned condo my heir will have to find £100,000 in order to transfer to his name legally. That would impossible!

The company owned condo has no such limitations.

With the company they will inherit yearly accounting and auditing fees. Probably doesn’t take long for these to amount to 100,000 baht (I assume you meant baht above).

[user7643446845]

With a foreigned condo my heir will have to find £100,000 in order to transfer to his name legally. That would impossible!

The company owned condo has no such limitations.

With the company they will inherit yearly accounting and auditing fees. Probably doesn’t take long for these to amount to 100,000 baht (I assume you meant baht above).

No £100,000 i.e Pounds Sterling. An appraised value of the condo at 5 million Baht means that 5 million Baht has to be brought into Thailand inorder for the new owner to have his/her name on the Condominium Title Deed. Those are the rules. At current exchange rates 5million Baht is £100,000.

All businesses attract costs. Audit fees -probably 12,000 Baht /year is one such cost.

[KittenKong]

No £100,000 i.e Pounds Sterling. An appraised value of the condo at 5 million Baht means that 5 million Baht has to be brought into Thailand inorder for the new owner to have his/her name on the Condominium Title Deed. Those are the rules. At current exchange rates 5million Baht is £100,000.

This being Thailand there are ways around the rules. Friendly bank managers can help.

[Delight]

Yes but not legal!

[WorkingTourist]

No £100,000 i.e Pounds Sterling. An appraised value of the condo at 5 million Baht means that 5 million Baht has to be brought into Thailand inorder for the new owner to have his/her name on the Condominium Title Deed. Those are the rules. At current exchange rates 5million Baht is £100,000.

Wow, this is news to me! For anyone unfamiliar with this, the issue is that: “[…] the right of foreign freehold ownership ends at death of the foreigner who qualified for ownership under the Condominium Act. Foreign freehold ownership of a condominium is not automatically transferable by inheritance to another foreigner […]”. (source)

Coincidentally the 2% transfer fee (of ฿5M) is ฿100,000, hence why I thought the pound sign was a typo. In practice though there would also be stamp duty and withholding tax when transferring ownership.

[Delight]

the problem is the £100,000 that has to be brought in.It does not have to be spent.However it has to be organised in the first place. Impossible I'm just about all cases.

Hence the major benefit of a company owned condo.

[12DrinkMore]

Yes but not legal!

That issue has never bothered the wealthy Thais, nor, indeed the not so wealthy.

Should we foreigners be above their morals and, well, culture?

[12DrinkMore]

the problem is the £100,000 that has to be brought in.It does not have to be spent.However it has to be organised in the first place. Impossible I'm just about all cases.

Hence the major benefit of a company owned condo.

These things can be organised. What is, exactly, your problem?

Indeed, your concept of using a company solely to purchase a property under the "control" of a foreigner is already against the "spirit of the law", and, indeed, could well be subject to a more careful scrutiny of who, exactly are the 51% of Thais involved and where, indeed, did their money come from?

Be very careful of what you wish for.

Edited May 14, 2016 by 12DrinkMore

[user7643446845]

Yes but not legal!

That issue has never bothered the wealthy Thais, nor, indeed the not so wealthy.

Should we foreigners be above their morals and, well, culture?

My case is about building a Father & Son type business-to be passed down the generations..

It cannot be built on fraud.

This is just good business practice -not about morals

Edited May 14, 2016 by Cellarvee

[fosseway]

I will be questioning the one year period after death to retain the foreign name, as our J.P. is under the impression that there is no limit, we have a case where the foreigner died about 5 years ago and left the unit left to his Thai son, the unit is now being offered for sale in a foreign name, as I said, I will check this with the J.P. and land office re the one year limit, as it will effect our 49% quota that is up to the limit.

[12DrinkMore]

Yes but not legal!

That issue has never bothered the wealthy Thais, nor, indeed the not so wealthy.

Should we foreigners be above their morals and, well, culture?

My case is about building a Father & Son type business-to be passed down the generations..

It cannot be built on fraud.

This is just good business practice -not about morals

Ok, c'est la vie.

Forget about the call to emotional support through Father, Son and future generations, I guess you could have added in Daughter as well.

Any business in Thailand requires 51% Thai shareholding (excluding the Yankee exceptions), the Thai shareholders are required to pump in assets equivalent to the 51%, although this has not always been enforced in the past.

Now, if you are circumventing this and controlling the company through some preferential shares, or simply using Thai nominees, to essentially own and control real estate assets in Thailand, then you are building a business on fraud.

Now, you may get away with this for a while.

But don't upset anybody, because you might find that the "eye of the tiger" will be focused on your shenanigans.

"Skating on thin ice" comes to mind, and the climate in Thailand is a little warm for solid ice to form.

[12DrinkMore]

I will be questioning the one year period after death to retain the foreign name, as our J.P. is under the impression that there is no limit, we have a case where the foreigner died about 5 years ago and left the unit left to his Thai son, the unit is now being offered for sale in a foreign name, as I said, I will check this with the J.P. and land office re the one year limit, as it will effect our 49% quota that is up to the limit.

We are all waiting for the reply.

Although, as usual, the answer in your area will be different to other areas and may depend not so much on the law, but how much you bung under the table.

However, in any case, it would be ideal to know where the law stands. As then we can all work out how much it will cost......

[WorkingTourist]

I will be questioning the one year period after death to retain the foreign name, as our J.P. is under the impression that there is no limit, we have a case where the foreigner died about 5 years ago and left the unit left to his Thai son, the unit is now being offered for sale in a foreign name, as I said, I will check this with the J.P. and land office re the one year limit, as it will effect our 49% quota that is up to the limit.

As long as the foreign quota is not full, there is no problem selling a Thai owned condo to a foreigner, as long as the foreigner fulfills the legal requirements (bringing money from abroad).

[user7643446845]

Yes but not legal!

That issue has never bothered the wealthy Thais, nor, indeed the not so wealthy.

Should we foreigners be above their morals and, well, culture?

My case is about building a Father & Son type business-to be passed down the generations..

It cannot be built on fraud.

This is just good business practice -not about morals

Ok, c'est la vie.

Forget about the call to emotional support through Father, Son and future generations, I guess you could have added in Daughter as well.

Any business in Thailand requires 51% Thai shareholding (excluding the Yankee exceptions), the Thai shareholders are required to pump in assets equivalent to the 51%, although this has not always been enforced in the past.

Now, if you are circumventing this and controlling the company through some preferential shares, or simply using Thai nominees, to essentially own and control real estate assets in Thailand, then you are building a business on fraud.

Now, you may get away with this for a while.

But don't upset anybody, because you might find that the "eye of the tiger" will be focused on your shenanigans.

"Skating on thin ice" comes to mind, and the climate in Thailand is a little warm for solid ice to form.

My confidence , about a Thai company owning a condo ,comes from the now defunct 'Ask the Lawyer' Blog

He was very specific..

The current practice of Foreigner controlled Thai companies is perfectly legal.

Some years ago an attempt ,via the Thai parliament , to insist that if a foreigner had more than 51% control of a Thai company,then that company must be a foreign company.

The Bill was defeated

Money makes the world go round!

[12DrinkMore]

That issue has never bothered the wealthy Thais, nor, indeed the not so wealthy.

Should we foreigners be above their morals and, well, culture?

My case is about building a Father & Son type business-to be passed down the generations..

It cannot be built on fraud.

This is just good business practice -not about morals

Ok, c'est la vie.

Forget about the call to emotional support through Father, Son and future generations, I guess you could have added in Daughter as well.

Any business in Thailand requires 51% Thai shareholding (excluding the Yankee exceptions), the Thai shareholders are required to pump in assets equivalent to the 51%, although this has not always been enforced in the past.

Now, if you are circumventing this and controlling the company through some preferential shares, or simply using Thai nominees, to essentially own and control real estate assets in Thailand, then you are building a business on fraud.

Now, you may get away with this for a while.

But don't upset anybody, because you might find that the "eye of the tiger" will be focused on your shenanigans.

"Skating on thin ice" comes to mind, and the climate in Thailand is a little warm for solid ice to form.

My confidence , about a Thai company owning a condo ,comes from the now defunct 'Ask the Lawyer' Blog

He was very specific..

The current practice of Foreigner controlled Thai companies is perfectly legal.

Some years ago an attempt ,via the Thai parliament , to insist that if a foreigner had more than 51% control of a Thai company,then that company must be a foreign company.

The Bill was defeated

Money makes the world go round!

1. Never trust somebody making money from what he says is "the truth".

2. It is not perfectly legal.

3. Please provide a reference to the Thai Parliamentary decision. It will surely be documented somewhere.....

I have never heard of it, and if it was a fact, then it would surely have been broadcast left, right and centre, and not remained a close kept secret for those "in the know". Or merely mentioned in some defunct blog.

To summarise, you are building a multi-generational foreign controlled business on the basis of some defunct internet blog that said you could?

Insane.

[user7643446845]

1. Never trust somebody making money from what he says is "the truth".

2. It is not perfectly legal.

3. Please provide a reference to the Thai Parliamentary decision. It will surely be documented somewhere.....

I have never heard of it, and if it was a fact, then it would surely have been broadcast left, right and centre, and not remained a close kept secret for those "in the know". Or merely mentioned in some defunct blog.

To summarise, you are building a multi-generational foreign controlled business on the basis of some defunct internet blog that said you could?

Insane.

I am convinced about what I say and read. Not ,ofcourse what you say!

I read in the Bangkok Post about the defeated Bill in the Thai parliament. About 2006/2007

If you need evidence of this then I suggest that you reasearch it..

The condo building busiiness in Thailand would cease if they banned the company approach. It is fair to say that all new condo builds (outside Bangkok) are 100% foreign money. If not 100% then very close to that percentage.

That is not going to happen.

If they were going to kill the Thai company approach -then it would be dead already

Edited May 14, 2016 by Cellarvee

[12DrinkMore]

I am convinced about what I say and read. Not ,ofcourse what you say!

I read in the Bangkok Post about the defeated Bill in the Thai parliament. About 2006/2007

If you need evidence of this then I suggest that you reasearch it..

The condo building busiiness in Thailand would cease if they banned the company approach. It is fair to say that all new condo builds (outside Bangkok) are 100% foreign money. If not 100% then very close to that percentage.

That is not going to happen.

If they were going to kill the Thai company approach -then it would be dead already

1. Sure, my posts have absolutely no value.

2. You originally said you read about it in a defunct blog. Up to you. I have never read about it.

3. I don't. I have no intention of investing in real estate in Thailand using a company based structure when I can own a condo outright in my own name.

4. Right? No Thais ever buy a condo. Not ever? Wow, they must surely know something we don't. Actually quite a lot do, they do have money, you know. They are not all poor farmers from Isaan.

5. No comment.

6. It depends on where the "enforcing the law" eye turns to. You may have noticed that more than a few Thais have come under the "eye" already.

[Langsuan Man]

Seems to me that the OP certainly has enlarged his question regarding "condo transfer costs-before or after I kick the bucket" ,

to include legality's of condo ownership in a company name, the inheritance by a Thai wife, and now a son in law who is not Thai !

He has already made up his mind that he is right which begs the question of why ask the question in the first place if you already know the answer ?

[Delight]

You are right

This blog as gone way off topic and as Op I am guilty of the shift