The term "oriental" -- insulting and outdated?

[Jingthing]

The U.S. government has now banned use of the term ORIENTAL claiming it is insulting and outdated. Short of a slur, but not cool.

What's your impression of term oriental as used by westerners?

Similarities / differences to use of FARANG in Thailand which obviously is often used in an insulting way but (see subforum name) clearly not outdated?

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/05/22/politics/obama-federal-law-minorities-references/index.html

The federal government will no longer use the terms "Negro" and "Oriental" after President Barack Obama signed a bill into law.

The official terms will be African-American and Asian-American. Welcome to 2016.

In a rare show of bipartisan support, the measure H.R.4238, passed unanimously in the House of Representatives and the Senate earlier this year. Obama signed it into law Friday.

[pgrahmm]

How about occidental was it banned as well?

Since 2/3 of the world's population lives in asia it could be reasonably argued that occidendals are the minority group and, as such the term is non exclusive - or inclusive & should be banned. ....

This pc sh!t is getting ridiculous....and again aimed to create a division......

It might be an out dated term relating to people coming from the orient as opposed to "the west"....but it never was a racial slur - until it was made to be, (now)....This administration prefers division over unity......Divide & conquer/destroy....tear down....

Edited May 25, 2016 by pgrahmm

[StreetCowboy]

Surely the replacement for Oriental should be 'East Asian' to distinguish them from South Asians and West Asians. Otherwise how can we tell our Chinks from our Pakis from our Arabs?

If you're going to allow racial descrptions, then they need to be precise enough to describe perceived racial differences.

How does it work for non-Americans? 'The plaintiff was a foreign Asian-American gentleman of US nationality'?

Refusing to allow calling a spade a spade will hamper more than just the landscape-gardening industry. Perhaps it would be easier and less prejudicial to use numbers for races, rather than descriptions; but who would ne number one? Or Number Six - I am not a number. Similarly if we used letters - even Greek letters; I am sure lots of us would like to be considered Alpha males. I think it would be better if we assigned some less prejorative or sequential term: "Suspect a was an Olive, while suspect b was a Magnolia, the remaining suspects were a Primrose and Mahogany"

I think we should invite Dulux to advise us on racial descriptors

Edited May 25, 2016 by StreetCowboy

[nausea]

Oriental means exotic, yellow skin, slit eyes, small penis. Negro means black skin, good at dancing, big penis. Farang means big nose, white skin, bad at dancing. Yeah, maybe Obhama has a point.

[Jingthing]

Back to the topic, even when I was a little kid in the U.S. in an area with probably less than ONE percent Asian population (I was friends with all of them in my school), before Thai restaurants, before people knew what PHO was much less how to pronounce it, and before Americans seriously considering eating raw fish ... only CLUELESS usually older people said Orientals!

This was before people even said Asians.

The more aware referred to people more specifically, such as Chinese, Korean, or Japanese.

Edited May 25, 2016 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

How about occidental was it banned as well?

Since 2/3 of the world's population lives in asia it could be reasonably argued that occidendals are the minority group and, as such the term is non exclusive - or inclusive & should be banned. ....

This pc sh!t is getting ridiculous....

It wasn't because in U.S. culture, the term occidental was never really used in the way oriental was. More like an academic word.

So nothing to ban.

[manarak]

I'm not sure the measure makes sense at all - banning the use of some words is banning expression about what the words mean. Sounds like big brother's newspeak if you ask me.

[Fabricus]

The term is very outdated. I don't think I've ever heard a westerner use it, nor do I believe it carries any of the negative connotations conveyed by, for example, negro or spick.

There's no real connection to Thailand's EFF word, however; problems / issues with the term "farang" only ever stem from poor understanding of the word's etymology.

===

On a vaguely related note, I once came across a guy on this forum who wrote something like....

Coz, like, you know, I wouldn't never live in Malaysia. It's coz them Malays are all lazy. And that's coz the word "Malays" comes from the French word "malaise", which means lazy. And that's coz Malaysia was, like, a French colony and the French sussed out the Malays and how lazy they is. So I wouldn't never live there. Beside, the girls in Thailand is way more better.

[djayz]

I think people are becoming way to sensitive nowadays. So many people are offended by words.

Sticks and stones can break my bones, but words can't hurt me.

[robertthebruce]

Oriental means exotic, yellow skin, slit eyes, small penis. Negro means black skin, good at dancing, big penis. Farang means big nose, white skin, bad at dancing. Yeah, maybe Obhama has a point.

WOW.......I don't have a big nose and I don't have two left feet...

[StreetCowboy]

Oriental means exotic, yellow skin, slit eyes, small penis. Negro means black skin, good at dancing, big penis. Farang means big nose, white skin, bad at dancing. Yeah, maybe Obhama has a point.

WOW.......I don't have a big nose and I don't have two left feet...

I guess everyone is entitled to their own opinion

[StreetCowboy]

I think people are becoming way to sensitive nowadays. So many people are offended by words.

Sticks and stones can break my bones, but words can't hurt me.

"...will never..."

It's a statement of defiance, rather than an observation.

When Joe Mahler called his opponent 'Gypsy Boy', I wonder how motivating the opponent found that?

There is a fine line between provocation and motivation, but I doubt an English c**** like Mahler would understand the difference. Thank God we can still call them English c****s

[teatree]

It seems to be offensive in the US but not in the UK.

[teatree]

I think people are becoming way to sensitive nowadays. So many people are offended by words.

Sticks and stones can break my bones, but words can't hurt me.

+1

It is ok to call a British person a 'Brit', or an Australian an 'Aussie'.

But it is offensive to call a Japanese person a 'Jap' or a Pakistani a 'Paki'.

Why? Because Britain and Australia are predominantly white countries and Japan and Pakistan are 'countries of color'.

The rules need to be applied to all or to none, and anything else is just fueling division and creating conflict where it need not exist.

[Jingthing]

I'm not sure the measure makes sense at all - banning the use of some words is banning expression about what the words mean. Sounds like big brother's newspeak if you ask me.

Well, it's about banning them from government documents. That seems entirely reasonable to me, especially with the term "Negro" also included in the ruling. They're not restricting what people say at the water cooler. I said, cooler, not coolie.

[Jingthing]

It seems to be offensive in the US but not in the UK.

I would expect variation in different nations on terms like that.

I still don't think it's a slur. It's more like a person saying it needs to modernize and reveals themselves as ignorant. Negro, on the other hand, is more like a slur, unless you're speaking Spanish.

I have encountered Americans that still use the term oriental.

Edited May 25, 2016 by Jingthing

[Donutz]

I think people are becoming way to sensitive nowadays. So many people are offended by words.

Sticks and stones can break my bones, but words can't hurt me.

+1

It is ok to call a British person a 'Brit', or an Australian an 'Aussie'.

But it is offensive to call a Japanese person a 'Jap' or a Pakistani a 'Paki'.

Why? Because Britain and Australia are predominantly white countries and Japan and Pakistan are 'countries of color'.

The rules need to be applied to all or to none, and anything else is just fueling division and creating conflict where it need not exist.

I concur. It might indicate that you are lazy though if you can't be bothered to say/write "British" and stick to the shortend "Brit" . Same with Japanese vs Jap etc. Can't see any harm in using these shortend words, certainly not in an informal enviroment. Now if you were writing a formal letter or speech you may wish to use non-slang terms.

As for Oriental, I can't see any negative about it either. Though Asian, south-east Asian or *insert country here* seems to be more common and thus the prefered word. In any case, it's all about the senders intent. If more and more people chose to use one word in favour of the other, fair enough. Languages evolve. Thise sticking on to classic words may slowly be outnumbered and come over as being stuck in time... People should use what ever word they find most approperiate. If you're dealing with a racist lunatic that will become apparant even if they use "PC" terms. And if somebody uses outdated or non-PC words but in a normal, respectful context, that is pretty obvious though. Might step on a few toes but that is life, damned if you do, damned if you don't.

[StreetCowboy]

I'm not sure the measure makes sense at all - banning the use of some words is banning expression about what the words mean. Sounds like big brother's newspeak if you ask me.

Well, it's about banning them from government documents. That seems entirely reasonable to me, especially with the term "Negro" also included in the ruling. They're not restricting what people say at the water cooler. I said, cooler, not coolie.

My point was that if you are going to use racial descriptions then they should be precise enough to reflect people's perceptions. "Asian Americans" includes Orientals, Indians and Arabs. You can't call a spade a shovel - it's specifically a square-nosed shovel

SC

[Jingthing]

I'm not sure the measure makes sense at all - banning the use of some words is banning expression about what the words mean. Sounds like big brother's newspeak if you ask me.

Well, it's about banning them from government documents. That seems entirely reasonable to me, especially with the term "Negro" also included in the ruling. They're not restricting what people say at the water cooler. I said, cooler, not coolie.

My point was that if you are going to use racial descriptions then they should be precise enough to reflect people's perceptions. "Asian Americans" includes Orientals, Indians and Arabs. You can't call a spade a shovel - it's specifically a square-nosed shovel

SC

I think you're quite confused. You do realize such categorizations are entirely different in different countries, right? Your classifications don't compute in USA culture. It's a sovereign nation.

Anyway, banning use of Oriental and Negro is ENTIRELY a great idea in U.S. government documents. If there was anything controversial about that, do you think it would have ever gotten such universal bipartisan support? Almost nothing does! It's about as controversial in the U.S. context as saying you shouldn't torture puppies.

Anyway, back to the topic. I've explained how I see oriental in the U.S. context.

How is the word doing in Australia, Canada, the U.K., etc.?

Edited May 25, 2016 by Jingthing

[richard_smith237]

So what of the Mandarin Oriental hotel chain ???

Oriental Express train ??

No... I think Oriental is a reasonable descriptor of South East Asia in geographical terms and people who live in South East Asia are Oriental, I think there are no associated negative connotations to be drawn from that.

BUT - It depends in what context 'Oriental' is used... as its a descriptor it can also be used negatively with just a change in tone or emphasis - but so can many words.

If we're not careful, Asian will be the next 'term' to be banned or outdated...

Edited May 25, 2016 by richard_smith237

[Jingthing]

So what of the Mandarin Oriental hotel chain ???

Oriental Express train ??

No... I think Oriental is a reasonable descriptor of South East Asia in geographical terms and people who live in South East Asia are Oriental, I think there are no associated negative connotations to be drawn from that.

BUT - It depends in what context 'Oriental' is used... as its a descriptor it can also be used negatively with just a change in tone or emphasis - but so can many words.

If we're not careful, Asian will be the next 'term' to be banned or outdated...

I thought of that too, the Mandarin Oriental. But it's clear that refers to a region, not an ethnic classification. I assume it would still be OK for a U.S. government staffer to book there, assuming the budget could be justified.

[StreetCowboy]

I'm not sure the measure makes sense at all - banning the use of some words is banning expression about what the words mean. Sounds like big brother's newspeak if you ask me.

Well, it's about banning them from government documents. That seems entirely reasonable to me, especially with the term "Negro" also included in the ruling. They're not restricting what people say at the water cooler. I said, cooler, not coolie.

My point was that if you are going to use racial descriptions then they should be precise enough to reflect people's perceptions. "Asian Americans" includes Orientals, Indians and Arabs. You can't call a spade a shovel - it's specifically a square-nosed shovel

SC

I think you're quite confused. You do realize such categorizations are entirely different in different countries, right? Your classifications don't compute in USA culture. It's a sovereign nation.

I thought the original proposition was that the descriptor 'oriental' should be replaced with 'Asian American'. But there are Arab Americans and Indian Americans who are also Asian Americans but not Orientals, and therefore to use 'Asian American' instead of 'Oriental' would be confusing.

We could go off on a side-rant on whether Iranians were Arabs, or Pakistanis Sourh Asians, or where to classify Afghanis and Uzbekhs, but that would be obtuse digressionism.

[Jingthing]

I thought the original proposition was that the descriptor 'oriental' should be replaced with 'Asian American'. But there are Arab Americans and Indian Americans who are also Asian Americans but not Orientals, and therefore to use 'Asian American' instead of 'Oriental' would be confusing.

We could go off on a side-rant on whether Iranians were Arabs, or Pakistanis Sourh Asians, or where to classify Afghanis and Uzbekhs, but that would be obtuse digressionism.

Again, this kind of labeling varies by nation and changes over time. In USA culture, Arabs for example have not been labeled Asians or Oriental.

Note that currently anthropologists are generally opposed to using the word RACE at all when referring to humans. Just the one race of us.

What is the person's race?

• White
• Black or African American
• American Indian or Alaska Native — Print name of enrolled or principal tribe.
• Asian Indian
• Chinese
• Filipino
• Other Asian — Print race, for example, Hmong, Laotian, Thai, Pakistani, Cambodian, and so on.
• Japanese
• Korean
• Vietnamese
• Native Hawaiian
• Guamanian or Chamorro
• Samoan
• Other Pacific Islander — Print race, for example, Fijian, Tongan, and so on.
• Some other race — Print race.

• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_ethnicity_in_the_United_States_Census

Edited May 25, 2016 by Jingthing

[StreetCowboy]

I thought the original proposition was that the descriptor 'oriental' should be replaced with 'Asian American'. But there are Arab Americans and Indian Americans who are also Asian Americans but not Orientals, and therefore to use 'Asian American' instead of 'Oriental' would be confusing.

We could go off on a side-rant on whether Iranians were Arabs, or Pakistanis Sourh Asians, or where to classify Afghanis and Uzbekhs, but that would be obtuse digressionism.

Again, this kind of labeling varies by nation and changes over time. In USA culture, Arabs for example have never been labeled Asians or Orientals.

Are you saying that Arsbs don't count as Asians? Is that because they're Semites? To call Orientals 'Asian Americans' smacks of the same bigoted race-appropriation that sees Arabs denied protections afforded their Semitic compatriots

[Jingthing]

I thought the original proposition was that the descriptor 'oriental' should be replaced with 'Asian American'. But there are Arab Americans and Indian Americans who are also Asian Americans but not Orientals, and therefore to use 'Asian American' instead of 'Oriental' would be confusing.

We could go off on a side-rant on whether Iranians were Arabs, or Pakistanis Sourh Asians, or where to classify Afghanis and Uzbekhs, but that would be obtuse digressionism.

Again, this kind of labeling varies by nation and changes over time. In USA culture, Arabs for example have never been labeled Asians or Orientals.

Are you saying that Arsbs don't count as Asians? Is that because they're Semites? To call Orientals 'Asian Americans' smacks of the same bigoted race-appropriation that sees Arabs denied protections afforded their Semitic compatriots

I think you're playing games now. In the USA, both Arabs and Jews are currently classified as WHITE (for census purposes, anyway). Like I said, each nation does these classifications differently, and they are subject to change over time. There may or may not be logic to it. I know for a fact there is SOME resistance among both Jews and Arabs to be classified as white. That's a can of worms considering racial politics in the USA, so maybe we should stick to stuff about ORIENTALS?!?

Edited May 25, 2016 by Jingthing

[Bangkokazy]

Orient, Latin for "Baltic states" is a geographical grouping of countries in the Middle-East and Asia. Exactly which country is meant by the term "oriental" varies. The term generally includes countries like Turkey, Cyprus, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Israel, Iran, Iraq, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Qatar, United Arab Emirates, Oman, Yemen, Azerbaijan, Turkmenistan, Afghanistan, Pakistan, India and parts of Russia. The term was more common before.

An oriental is a person from the Orient, while Oriental is an adjective for what concerns or come from the Orient.

Orientalism is the study and knowledge of the cultures of the East. Orientalism is also applied to the Western colonial powers stereotypical images and representations of the Middle East, later also the rest of Asia, which occurred in the 1800s.

[Berkshire]

It is ok to call a British person a 'Brit', or an Australian an 'Aussie'.

But it is offensive to call a Japanese person a 'Jap' or a Pakistani a 'Paki'.

Why? Because Britain and Australia are predominantly white countries and Japan and Pakistan are 'countries of color'.

The rules need to be applied to all or to none, and anything else is just fueling division and creating conflict where it need not exist.

Are you being deliberately obtuse? There's a reason "Jap" is offensive in the US, but not so much in the UK. Do you know why? It has to do with historical context, and how Japanese-Americans were treated in the US during WWII. So your example of "Brit" or "Aussie" is completely irrelevant. Do you have any idea what you're talking about?

[dukeandduke]

It's a bit misleading to say that they're banning the term. They're banning it in government documents when referring to people. They're not banning it when referring to inanimate objects, e.g. rugs.

[Jingthing]

It's a bit misleading to say that they're banning the term. They're banning it in government documents when referring to people. They're not banning it when referring to inanimate objects, e.g. rugs.

Yes, I totally agree and that point has already been well clarified multiple times here. It's reasonable what they did and there was actually NO opposition to it.

[Saastrajaa]

Back to the topic, even when I was a little kid in the U.S. in an area with probably less than ONE percent Asian population (I was friends with all of them in my school), before Thai restaurants, before people knew what PHO was much less how to pronounce it, and before Americans seriously considering eating raw fish ... only CLUELESS usually older people said Orientals!

This was before people even said Asians.

The more aware referred to people more specifically, such as Chinese, Korean, or Japanese.

It's also important to remember that "Asian" is a Western term and concept as well, just like "Oriental" (though I definitely agree that the latter is archaic and needs to go).

There is no native (pre-dating Western contact) word for "Asia" or "Asian" in any Asian language that I'm aware of...they all use words borrowed or adapted from Western languages (Thai uses the English term, Khmer uses the French term, etc.). And of course, why SHOULD they have a word for "Asian"? It's a Western term created to lump Japanese, Chinese, Indian, Thai, etc. together as some sort of exotic "other".