"ISIL claims responsibility" for Orlando gay nightclub shooting that left 50 dead

[halloween]

Guys, really??

Holding all Muslims accountable for one so-called 'Jihadi's' actions is like holding every German accountable for Hitlers madness.

People who are still on their Muslim 'kristallnacht' really need a reality check. It's as if you are just sitting behind your computer all day and night waiting until someone reacts to this topic so that you can spin it or twist it again, just to suit your anti-Muslim crusade. It's so surreal that I'm stepping out of it(talking about disturbed) Please leave it up to the security services to hunt these guys down.....it's not as if you are getting paid for it, are you?

Every? Certainly not, there was an active resistance. But the Wehrmacht that marched into Poland was Germans, those manning the concentration camps were Germans, the industries using slave labour were German, and a big section of the population went along.

And when a mullah starts preaching hate of gays, Jews, Americans, the other muslim team, or whoever is the flavour of the week, do they get rejected by those listening and reported to police, or do they just nod in agreement because they believe this crap? Yes, occasionally police do get to hear about those preaching hate, because they have a resistance too. Like the Germans they go along, because speaking out is standing out, and there is likely to be repercussions.

[FinChin67]

Guys, really??

Holding all Muslims accountable for one so-called 'Jihadi's' actions is like holding every German accountable for Hitlers madness.

People who are still on their Muslim 'kristallnacht' really need a reality check. It's as if you are just sitting behind your computer all day and night waiting until someone reacts to this topic so that you can spin it or twist it again, just to suit your anti-Muslim crusade. It's so surreal that I'm stepping out of it(talking about disturbed) Please leave it up to the security services to hunt these guys down.....it's not as if you are getting paid for it, are you?

DaveinAsia, this is a video you need to watch. It gives you a reply to "Holding all Muslims accountable"

Brigitte Gabriel gives FANTASTIC answer to Muslim woman claiming all Muslims are portrayed badly

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ry3NzkAOo3s

Watch it.

[55Jay]

Guys, really??

Holding all Muslims accountable for one so-called 'Jihadi's' actions is like holding every German accountable for Hitlers madness.

People who are still on their Muslim 'kristallnacht' really need a reality check. It's as if you are just sitting behind your computer all day and night waiting until someone reacts to this topic so that you can spin it or twist it again, just to suit your anti-Muslim crusade. It's so surreal that I'm stepping out of it(talking about disturbed) Please leave it up to the security services to hunt these guys down.....it's not as if you are getting paid for it, are you?

DaveinAsia, this is a video you need to watch. It gives you a reply to "Holding all Muslims accountable"

Brigitte Gabriel gives FANTASTIC answer to Muslim woman claiming all Muslims are portrayed badly

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ry3NzkAOo3s

Watch it.

I watched it. Wow!

[FinChin67]

In Germany Facebook blocks gay site http://www.gaystream.info/ and also blocks journalist David Berger's page.

Nach Orlando-Attentat27

Facebook sperrt Schwulenportal nach Islamkritik

https://jungefreiheit.de/kultur/medien/2016/facebook-sperrt-schwulenportal-nach-islamkritik/

Islamkritik: Facebook deaktiviert Gaystream-Seite und sperrt Chefredakteur für 30 Tage

http://www.david-berger.info/#!Islamkritik-Facebook-deaktiviert-GaystreamSeite-und-sperrt-Chefredakteur-<deleted>̈r-30-Tage/c1vx5/57626ba60cf235a69b238530

[mopar71]

This is the BEST and smartest gun argument I have heard yet...

https://www.facebook.com/rik.sexton/videos/4123638147897/

It is a great video, one that supporters of gun control will not watch.

I am a supporter of the 2nd Amendment but as the guy in the video says, if Congress really wants to do something about guns, they should propose a 28th Amendment which rescinds the 2nd Amendment.

For the Amendment to pass it would require a minimum of 38 states to go along. That's the way it is supposed to work and if the voters in 38 states were to do so, I would accept it.

[uptheos]

Where you get a large group of people together in an enclosed environment, they are a target for a nut or terrorist, not because they are lesbian or gay.

[FinChin67]

Where you get a large group of people together in an enclosed environment, they are a target for a nut or terrorist, not because they are lesbian or gay.

Yes and no.

Recent from Sweden. School ending party.

Girls harassed on Summerland. Tjejer ofredades på Sommarland

http://www.skaraborgslanstidning.se/article/tjejer-ofredades-pa-sommarland/

Taharrus gamea again according to mothers and eyewitnesses, Swedish media of course keeping the official line.

[Jingthing]

Where you get a large group of people together in an enclosed environment, they are a target for a nut or terrorist, not because they are lesbian or gay.

Yes and no.

Recent from Sweden. School ending party.

Girls harassed on Summerland. Tjejer ofredades på Sommarland

http://www.skaraborgslanstidning.se/article/tjejer-ofredades-pa-sommarland/

Taharrus gamea again according to mothers and eyewitnesses, Swedish media of course keeping the official line.

The question of the Orlando terrorist's choice of target's is going to continue to be a mystery, perhaps forever.

Some facts we know:

-- there is strong evidence he had gay desires

-- there is pretty strong evidence he was on some gay dating apps but the apps can't confirm because he may have used fake i.d.'s

-- there is conflicting evidence about how often and how long back that he went to Orlando Pulse gay club and possibly other gay clubs

-- there is NO evidence whatsoever that he ever actually had gay sex

-- there is strong evidence that his family background (father) is virulently anti-gay including justifying that with Islamic ideology

-- there is no doubt at all that ISIS that he publicly identified with considers being gay punishable by death

-- there is no doubt the terrorist was married to two women, had a child, so presumably he was capable of straight sex

-- there is no doubt that Pulse especially on Latin night was a target with a big crowd in a rather small concentrated space that was difficult to escape from (limited physical exits)

-- there is no doubt that internalized homophobia is often related to either suicide or violence against gay people (defensive measure)

So the mystery here is obvious ... was the Pulse target only hit because it provided lots of people, ANY people, to kill with difficult escape, because the terrorist was very familiar with target, or was internalized homophobia also a factor?

OK, we'll probably never know for sure ... but the incident does highlight that homophobia is a damaging thing for people and societies. Imagine if the terrorist had been raised to be a happy, self accepting gay man in the western sense -- it's kind of hard to imagine someone who has that identity being a good prospect for Jihadist radicalization from a group like ISIS.

So unless someone can prove evidence otherwise, it seems to me that societal homophobia, expressed through his Daddy (and also presumably smaller town Florida non-Islamic typical American homophobia) and also internalized homophobia (even with the gay desire he was never able to identify with them and instead went for two marriages with Muslim women) was at least a contributing factor towards this atrocity.

Edited June 19, 2016 by Jingthing

[FinChin67]

The question of the Orlando terrorist's choice of target's is going to continue to be a mystery, perhaps forever.

Some facts we know:

-- there is strong evidence he had gay desires

-- there is pretty strong evidence he was on some gay dating apps but the apps can't confirm because he may have used fake i.d.'s

-- there is conflicting evidence about how often and how long back that he went to Orlando Pulse gay club and possibly other gay clubs

-- there is NO evidence whatsoever that he ever actually had gay sex

-- there is strong evidence that his family background (father) is virulently anti-gay including justifying that with Islamic ideology

-- there is no doubt at all that ISIS that he publicly identified with considers being gay punishable by death

-- there is no doubt the terrorist was married to two women, had a child, so presumably he was capable of straight sex

-- there is no doubt that Pulse especially on Latin night was a target with a big crowd in a rather small concentrated space that was difficult to escape from (limited physical exits)

-- there is no doubt that internalized homophobia is often related to either suicide or violence against gay people (defensive measure)

So the mystery here is obvious ... was the Pulse target only hit because it provided lots of people, ANY people, to kill with difficult escape, because the terrorist was very familiar with target, or was internalized homophobia also a factor?

OK, we'll probably never know for sure ... but the incident does highlight that homophobia is a damaging thing for people and societies. Imagine if the terrorist had been raised to be a happy, self accepting gay man in the western sense -- it's kind of hard to imagine someone who has that identity being a good prospect forJihadist radicalization from a group like ISIS.

So unless someone can prove evidence otherwise, it seems to me that societal homophobia, expressed through his Daddy (and also presumably smaller town Florida non-Islamic typical American homophobia) and also internalized homophobia (even with the gay desire he was never able to identify with them and instead went for two marriages with Muslim women) was at least a contributing factor towards this atrocity.

This is something worthwhile to read:

Why the lone-wolf terrorist is a myth

http://nypost.com/2016/06/18/why-the-lone-wolf-terrorist-is-a-myth/

[balo]

Someone should tell ISIS the shooter was gay, maybe they would not claim responsibility.

[Jingthing]

Someone should tell ISIS the shooter was gay, maybe they would not claim responsibility.

Being a conflicted twice married to women closet case who didn't identify as a gay man and quite possibly never once actually had gay sex in his life (so far, ZERO reports that he actually did) doesn't make him a gay man in any conventional definition of the phrase -- GAY MAN.

If he had been an actual gay man that actually IDENTIFIED as a gay man, as I said before, it's hard to imagine that he could have even been recruited by the ideology of Jihadist terrorists. Yet -- HE WAS.

BTW, you've posted that same thought several times.

Why?

We all know they read the media. ISIS is well aware of the gay desire side of the Orlando terrorist.

Embarrassing to them? That's kind of doubtful. They haven't disavowed their celebration and ideological connection to the Orlando atrocity and it's clear to me they never will.

Whether he was into dick (in theory anyway) or not ... he still was a HUGE SUCCESS as a Jihadist terrorist.

Yes, of course, if ISIS got their hands on him in ISIS land they would gladly still toss him off a tall building. But no worries, on top of the mass murder, it was another Jihadist suicide mission as well, with the help of the Orlando police.

It IS however, I think, an interesting academic question whether ISIS would have claimed a connection IF they had known about his closet gay desires earlier. We'll never know. Personally, I still think they would. They can explain it with their ideology quite well. He had "seen the light" about how gay people should be killed, a full conversion to their POV. I really don't see a huge contradiction for them.

Edited June 19, 2016 by Jingthing

[DaveinAsia]

Guys, really??

Holding all Muslims accountable for one so-called 'Jihadi's' actions is like holding every German accountable for Hitlers madness.

People who are still on their Muslim 'kristallnacht' really need a reality check. It's as if you are just sitting behind your computer all day and night waiting until someone reacts to this topic so that you can spin it or twist it again, just to suit your anti-Muslim crusade. It's so surreal that I'm stepping out of it(talking about disturbed) Please leave it up to the security services to hunt these guys down.....it's not as if you are getting paid for it, are you?

DaveinAsia, this is a video you need to watch. It gives you a reply to "Holding all Muslims accountable"

Brigitte Gabriel gives FANTASTIC answer to Muslim woman claiming all Muslims are portrayed badly

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ry3NzkAOo3s

Watch it.

55555! Fantastic? Just as fantastic as quoting that other Muslim hater Hirsi Ali. I'm sure Sean Hannity liked that video about 1000 times.

I love the wind up though! Please keep em' comin. I expect George 'boy' Bush next swearing under oath that Iraq has chemical weapons

[FinChin67]

Guys, really??

Holding all Muslims accountable for one so-called 'Jihadi's' actions is like holding every German accountable for Hitlers madness.

People who are still on their Muslim 'kristallnacht' really need a reality check. It's as if you are just sitting behind your computer all day and night waiting until someone reacts to this topic so that you can spin it or twist it again, just to suit your anti-Muslim crusade. It's so surreal that I'm stepping out of it(talking about disturbed) Please leave it up to the security services to hunt these guys down.....it's not as if you are getting paid for it, are you?

DaveinAsia, this is a video you need to watch. It gives you a reply to "Holding all Muslims accountable"

Brigitte Gabriel gives FANTASTIC answer to Muslim woman claiming all Muslims are portrayed badly

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ry3NzkAOo3s

Watch it.

55555! Fantastic? Just as fantastic as quoting that other Muslim hater Hirsi Ali. I'm sure Sean Hannity liked that video about 1000 times.

I love the wind up though! Please keep em' comin. I expect George 'boy' Bush next swearing under oath that Iraq has chemical weapons

Nice rant again.

You got a reply to your argument "Holding all Muslims accountable...." perfectly served.

Why is "peaceful majority was(is) irrelevant" so difficult to understand?

Calling Ayaan Hirsi Ali "muslim hater" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayaan_Hirsi_Ali is really wrong.

Actually, even if she was, I would forgive it to her considering what was done to her.

[mopar71]

I'm surprised she was so candid about it...

[Attorney General] Lynch: "Partial Transcript" Of Orlando 911 Calls Will Have References To Islamic Terrorism Removed

In an interview with NBC's Chuck Todd, Attorney General Loretta Lynch says that on Monday, the FBI will release edited transcripts of the 911 calls made by the Orlando nightclub shooter to the police during his rampage.

"What we're not going to do is further proclaim this man's pledges of allegiance to terrorist groups, and further his propaganda," Lynch said. "We are not going to hear him make his assertions of allegiance [to the Islamic State]."

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2016/06/19/lynch_partial_transcript_of_orlando_911_calls_will_have_references_to_isis_cut_out.html

[arjunadawn]

No! No, you didn't do it.

Ah but we did do it. Glorious IS claims...

No. This was not you. This was a confused gay... a lone wolf.

Ah, Mr. President. We trained and inspired him. We had key imams who...

No. No you didn't. This was guns, plain and simple.

Haha. But of course he had a vest...

No. No he didn't wear a vest. It was attire.

Mr. President, his family and wife, peace upon them, assisted and steered our beloved martyr...

No. No they didn't. Victims too. All of them. The wife was forced into complicity by the obstacles republicans create in preventing gays from finding expression. They were both equally victims. No ISIL, no Islam, no connections, no Saudi trip, no radical mosques, no violent dad, violent sermons... sigh, he must have felt so alone in those final moments, forced to act out his sadness with the guns republicans brutally cast upon him.

America must change so we never again force one of our own to get lost on the road to discovering their sexuality.

The Islamic State claims responsibility for...

No, can't have it. No responsibility. Carry on. 'Move on. Nothing to see here.'

Just like the pharaohs excising the names of opponents from all stones, books, statutes, and ledgers, Obama too revises history in real time to generate a narrative that must be forcibly worked and rebuilt in order to squeeze truth from it in the future. George Orwell was a moron beside the doublespeak engineers on America's islamophilic left.

[thaihome]

This is something worthwhile to read:

Why the lone-wolf terrorist is a myth

http://nypost.com/2016/06/18/why-the-lone-wolf-terrorist-is-a-myth/

From your link:

In fact, suspects in all but a handful of the roughly 90 ISIS terror cases prosecuted in America since 2014 were part of a group of up to 10 co-conspirators who met in person to discuss their plans or who made contact via text messaging or e-mail, Reuters found in a recent review of Justice Department case files. Only 11 percent of cases involved a terrorist acting entirely alone. Wolf dens, not lone wolves, [are] the norm in US Islamic State plots, the wire service concluded, further casting doubt on the official White House line.

So some 9 cases since 2004 have been acting entirely alone but the lone wolf is a myth. Bit of a jump don't you think going from 11% to myth? It may not be the "norm" but it's not a myth.

Fairly typical of this type of journalism.

TH

[FinChin67]

This is something worthwhile to read:

Why the lone-wolf terrorist is a myth

http://nypost.com/2016/06/18/why-the-lone-wolf-terrorist-is-a-myth/

From your link:

In fact, suspects in all but a handful of the roughly 90 ISIS terror cases prosecuted in America since 2014 were part of a group of up to 10 co-conspirators who met in person to discuss their plans or who made contact via text messaging or e-mail, Reuters found in a recent review of Justice Department case files. Only 11 percent of cases involved a terrorist acting entirely alone. Wolf dens, not lone wolves, [are] the norm in US Islamic State plots, the wire service concluded, further casting doubt on the official White House line.

So some 9 cases since 2004 have been acting entirely alone but the lone wolf is a myth. Bit of a jump don't you think going from 11% to myth? It may not be the "norm" but it's not a myth.

Fairly typical of this type of journalism.

TH

Yes, can be.

Pictured: Islamist reveals he was answering ISIS call for lone wolf attacks in Facebook video after slaughtering French police officer and his wife in front of their child

Link to Dailymail article

[balo]

Someone should tell ISIS the shooter was gay, maybe they would not claim responsibility.

Being a conflicted twice married to women closet case who didn't identify as a gay man and quite possibly never once actually had gay sex in his life (so far, ZERO reports that he actually did) doesn't make him a gay man in any conventional definition of the phrase -- GAY MAN.

If he had been an actual gay man that actually IDENTIFIED as a gay man, as I said before, it's hard to imagine that he could have even been recruited by the ideology of Jihadist terrorists. Yet -- HE WAS.

BTW, you've posted that same thought several times.

Why?

We all know they read the media. ISIS is well aware of the gay desire side of the Orlando terrorist.

Embarrassing to them? That's kind of doubtful. They haven't disavowed their celebration and ideological connection to the Orlando atrocity and it's clear to me they never will.

Whether he was into dick (in theory anyway) or not ... he still was a HUGE SUCCESS as a Jihadist terrorist.

Yes, of course, if ISIS got their hands on him in ISIS land they would gladly still toss him off a tall building. But no worries, on top of the mass murder, it was another Jihadist suicide mission as well, with the help of the Orlando police.

It IS however, I think, an interesting academic question whether ISIS would have claimed a connection IF they had known about his closet gay desires earlier. We'll never know. Personally, I still think they would. They can explain it with their ideology quite well. He had "seen the light" about how gay people should be killed, a full conversion to their POV. I really don't see a huge contradiction for them.

I only mentioned it because the IS leaders would not be happy about it , I agree that we do not know his sexual identity.

He was brain washed thats for sure.

[Jingthing]

Hard to read their minds. He's dead. Why wouldn't that make them happy? Closeted gay men presumably enjoy raisins in paradise too. I say raisins because of credible reports that raisins has been widely mistranslated as virgins.

[willyumiii]

Can anyone explain the difference between ISIL and ISIS ?

I assume they are referring to the same organization.

If so, why the confusion with the names?

Edited June 20, 2016 by willyumiii

[willyumiii]

It is very common for people or organizations to claim credit for crimes they did not commit.

Sometimes for publicity, sometimes because of mental disorders and many times due to both.

P.S. The CIA investigators on this case have just stated that it is unlikely that this crime is linked to terrorism or Islam.

Edited June 20, 2016 by willyumiii

[FinChin67]

Can anyone explain the difference between ISIL and ISIS ?

I assume they are referring to the same organization.

If so, why the confusion with the names?

You can also call them DAESH

ISIL, ISIS, Islamic State, Daesh: What's The Difference?

http://www.ibtimes.com/isil-isis-islamic-state-daesh-whats-difference-2187131

Isis, Isil, IS or Daesh? One group, many names

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-27994277

All muslims.

[willyumiii]

Can anyone explain the difference between ISIL and ISIS ?

I assume they are referring to the same organization.

If so, why the confusion with the names?

You can also call them DAESH

ISIL, ISIS, Islamic State, Daesh: What's The Difference?

http://www.ibtimes.com/isil-isis-islamic-state-daesh-whats-difference-2187131

Isis, Isil, IS or Daesh? One group, many names

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-27994277

All muslims.

And all KKK members are Christians.

Don't even go there.

Insinuating that all Muslims are radical extremist terrorist is just wrong.

The huge majority of Muslims are not.

[FinChin67]

Can anyone explain the difference between ISIL and ISIS ?

I assume they are referring to the same organization.

If so, why the confusion with the names?

You can also call them DAESH

ISIL, ISIS, Islamic State, Daesh: What's The Difference?

http://www.ibtimes.com/isil-isis-islamic-state-daesh-whats-difference-2187131

Isis, Isil, IS or Daesh? One group, many names

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-27994277

All muslims.

And all KKK members are Christians. Don't even go there.

Insinuating that all Muslims are radical extremist terrorist is just wrong.

The huge majority of Muslims are not.

All (Isis, Isil, IS or Daesh) radical extremist terrorists are muslims.

Edited June 20, 2016 by FinChin67

[Jingthing]

It is very common for people or organizations to claim credit for crimes they did not commit.

Sometimes for publicity, sometimes because of mental disorders and many times due to both.

P.S. The CIA investigators on this case have just stated that it is unlikely that this crime is linked to terrorism or Islam.

What a gross distortion. Intended? You fail to mention that's about direct orders from a Jihadist group. that's an entirely different thing than the question of whether he was radicalized by Jihadist ideology which is basically definite.

[augustwest]

Can anyone explain the difference between ISIL and ISIS ?

I assume they are referring to the same organization.

If so, why the confusion with the names?

You can also call them DAESH

ISIL, ISIS, Islamic State, Daesh: What's The Difference?

http://www.ibtimes.com/isil-isis-islamic-state-daesh-whats-difference-2187131

Isis, Isil, IS or Daesh? One group, many names

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-27994277

All muslims.

I prefer to call them Daesh. It seems to be derogatory term used by people in the know in ME. If you call them IS whatever. You are giving Daesh credibility by calling them an state,which they definitely are not but a bunch of murderous scum and should be annihilated with whatever resources we can bring to bear.

[FinChin67]

As an Arab, the Middle Easts reaction to Orlando left me speechless

http://www.arabhumanists.org/arab-reaction-orlando-depressing/

Recently, a devastating terrorist attack took place in Orlando, where 49 innocent people were murdered. Surely, the majority of people in the Arab world condemn this atrocious act of violence? The most fatal shooting in recent American history cannot possibly be celebrated by such a large number of peace-loving people who, after all, mostly condemn the acts of terror committed in the name of Islam by groups like ISIS and Al-Qaeda, right? Right?

Wrong.

[Jingthing]

As an Arab, the Middle Easts reaction to Orlando left me speechless

http://www.arabhumanists.org/arab-reaction-orlando-depressing/

Recently, a devastating terrorist attack took place in Orlando, where 49 innocent people were murdered. Surely, the majority of people in the Arab world condemn this atrocious act of violence? The most fatal shooting in recent American history cannot possibly be celebrated by such a large number of peace-loving people who, after all, mostly condemn the acts of terror committed in the name of Islam by groups like ISIS and Al-Qaeda, right? Right?

Wrong.

Thanks for sharing the response about the SICK and DISGUSTING responses in the Muslim world. One thing does not ring true. The "Arab Humanist" author says he was "surprised" to see that. Seriously!?! That's absurd. It was 100 percent predictable.

While active extremist Jihadists are relatively few, those that support them in spirit and/or non-resistance are MANY, MANY, MANY.

[hdkane]

The shooter was born in New York, to Afgan immigrant parents. He was investigated twice by the FBI. The first time was in 2013, when fellow employees were alarmed by statements he made in support of Islamic tettorism. In 2014, he was interviewed regarding contact he had with the first US suicide bomber in Syria, who was also from Fort Pierce, where Moteen (the shooter) lived. In both instances, the FBI took no further action. Moteen was employed since 2007 with a security company, and was trained and proficient with weapons. Moteen was married, but his wife divorced him due to his violent actions towards her. Imediately prior to his assault, he called 911 and gave his name and pledged allegiance to ISIS and its leader. This guy bought both weapons two weeks ago, and his background check showed no negatives. I find that very strange.

You make some very good points...myself, I hold dear the right to own a gun, and I do...I think guns save far more lives than anyone can estimate...and most gun violence occurs between thugs and and punks killing each other, which to be brutally honest, is a favor to society...whenever anything such as this tragedy happens, liberals in the usa reflexively want to ban weapons and take away a very effective means of self-defense...for example, just imagine if a couple of armed, trained, and responsible people had been in the club at the time of the assault...I think you hit on some issues that could easily limit the availability of guns to individuals who are misguided, careless, mentally ill, or violent. Seems straight forward that if someone openly avows violence to a member of law enforcement...chronic mental health issues...a documented history of violence...or refusal to complete ongoing education on gun safety and use...then he/she should not have access to guns...

of course, in the usa at least, it's so much easier to purchase a gun illegally than legally...so maybe gun access is an issue that will take decades to resolve...

I find it really confusing that he was not able to board a plane, because he was on the terrorist watch list...but was able to purchase a weapon...the laws in the USA are so twisted...

[spidermike007]

Can anyone explain the difference between ISIL and ISIS ?

I assume they are referring to the same organization.

If so, why the confusion with the names?

Yes, ISIS is the Independent scumbags into scare tactics, and ISIL is the irrational scum intentionally sucking life blood. And what about DAESH? Derelectic absolutely egomaniacal scum heathens.