Gen Prawit hints at curbs on UDD’s anti-cheating centres

[Eric Loh]

many people that post here although accused are not "junta supporters" as you lot call them, we are a group of people that want change in Thailand, an end to power abuse and massive corruption and murder on the streets of innocent people including children.

We all have a vested interest in Thailand to see it doing well, we have witnessed serious levels of violence for some time now mostly caused by corrupt elected governments abusing power and/or evading justice, the people have had enough, just maybe when this process has ended we may see Thailand on a path of stability, it will take a very long time to bring Thailand out of the dark ages and elevate it from 3rd world, it is possible but the right people need to be in place for it to succeed - no elected government has ever attempted such a thing because they have been too busy looking after their own interests and have always been a major part of the problem enriching themselves, just maybe that is about to change

Thaksin is gone for good unless he decides to come back and go to jail, those that have been feeding off his corrupt accumulated wealth and ill gotten gains are going to find it drying up soon. Go find a job and get off the stage

I don't really see how you are in a position to be calling anyone out for labelling others - your "the thaksin fan club constantly spaming TVF" being a particular favourite of mine - but that aside, I think you will find the vast majority of us posting on here want the same things as you, we just don't see it happening with the current people in power.

very rarely if ever have I used that term and I most definitely did not start that sort of slandering

since we are talking very broadly on the same page, who do you think or what process do you think would bring about such change, I said on here many years ago that Thailand needs a hero a man that has the interests of the country and its people to make the changes, I to an extent see that man in the current PM, I could be wrong but I am willing to wait and see what comes out of it, if we take him at his word then he could be the one, it cannot happen with an elected government simply because no single man could achieve such a thing when he has a government full of self serving leeches that would be very quick to remove him/her at the first sign of them trying to end the corruption and power abuse, a strong rigid constitution is the solid base to build from, independent agencies that can call a government to account and a justice system that can deal with wrong doers with severe penalties

Singapore is a fine example in SEA of how such reforms can be achieved, it took a very long time of hurt and hardship but look at how it developed and it is now

PS also worth noting I have been the author of some very scathing critical attacks on the current government and PM were I thought it was deserved and will continue to do so, they have made some very poor choices and come out with some extremely stupid statements - they are for sure no experts in diplomacy and political speak

Since you made reference to Singapore and indirectly the role that LKY plays in reforming the country, perhaps you can reflect on what is his opinion on coup.

"On coup attempts during Corazon Aquino's presidency that discouraged inflow of investments, Lee wrote:

This was a pity because they had so many able people, educated in the Philippines and the United States. Their workers were English-speaking, at least in Manila. There was no reason why the Philippines should not have been one of the more successful of the ASEAN countries.

In the 1950s and 1960s, it was the most developed, because America had been generous in rehabilitating the country after the war. Something was missing, a gel to hold society together.

The people at the top, the elite mestizos, had the same detached attitude to the native peasants as the mestizos in their haciendas in Latin America had toward their peons.

They were two different societies: Those at the top lived a life of extreme luxury and comfort while the peasants scraped a living, and in the Philippines it was a hard living. They had no land but worked on sugar and coconut plantations".

What LKY said could easily be referenced to Thailand. Key takeaways are political stability and people at the top indifference attitude towards the poorer uneducated peasants. Phillipines is good example of people freedom to rid corrupted leaders through the ballot boxes not through the barrel of guns. The title of Asia sick man is now sadly handed to Thailand.

[Winniedapu]

many people that post here although accused are not "junta supporters" as you lot call them, we are a group of people that want change in Thailand, an end to power abuse and massive corruption and murder on the streets of innocent people including children.

We all have a vested interest in Thailand to see it doing well, we have witnessed serious levels of violence for some time now mostly caused by corrupt elected governments abusing power and/or evading justice, the people have had enough, just maybe when this process has ended we may see Thailand on a path of stability, it will take a very long time to bring Thailand out of the dark ages and elevate it from 3rd world, it is possible but the right people need to be in place for it to succeed - no elected government has ever attempted such a thing because they have been too busy looking after their own interests and have always been a major part of the problem enriching themselves, just maybe that is about to change

Thaksin is gone for good unless he decides to come back and go to jail, those that have been feeding off his corrupt accumulated wealth and ill gotten gains are going to find it drying up soon. Go find a job and get off the stage

I don't really see how you are in a position to be calling anyone out for labelling others - your "the thaksin fan club constantly spaming TVF" being a particular favourite of mine - but that aside, I think you will find the vast majority of us posting on here want the same things as you, we just don't see it happening with the current people in power.

very rarely if ever have I used that term and I most definitely did not start that sort of slandering

since we are talking very broadly on the same page, who do you think or what process do you think would bring about such change, I said on here many years ago that Thailand needs a hero a man that has the interests of the country and its people to make the changes, I to an extent see that man in the current PM, I could be wrong but I am willing to wait and see what comes out of it, if we take him at his word then he could be the one, it cannot happen with an elected government simply because no single man could achieve such a thing when he has a government full of self serving leeches that would be very quick to remove him/her at the first sign of them trying to end the corruption and power abuse, a strong rigid constitution is the solid base to build from, independent agencies that can call a government to account and a justice system that can deal with wrong doers with severe penalties

Singapore is a fine example in SEA of how such reforms can be achieved, it took a very long time of hurt and hardship but look at how it developed and it is now

PS also worth noting I have been the author of some very scathing critical attacks on the current government and PM were I thought it was deserved and will continue to do so, they have made some very poor choices and come out with some extremely stupid statements - they are for sure no experts in diplomacy and political speak

Since you made reference to Singapore and indirectly the role that LKY plays in reforming the country, perhaps you can reflect on what is his opinion on coup.

"On coup attempts during Corazon Aquino's presidency that discouraged inflow of investments, Lee wrote:

This was a pity because they had so many able people, educated in the Philippines and the United States. Their workers were English-speaking, at least in Manila. There was no reason why the Philippines should not have been one of the more successful of the ASEAN countries.

In the 1950s and 1960s, it was the most developed, because America had been generous in rehabilitating the country after the war. Something was missing, a gel to hold society together.

The people at the top, the elite mestizos, had the same detached attitude to the native peasants as the mestizos in their haciendas in Latin America had toward their peons.

They were two different societies: Those at the top lived a life of extreme luxury and comfort while the peasants scraped a living, and in the Philippines it was a hard living. They had no land but worked on sugar and coconut plantations".

What LKY said could easily be referenced to Thailand. Key takeaways are political stability and people at the top indifference attitude towards the poorer uneducated peasants. Phillipines is good example of people freedom to rid corrupted leaders through the ballot boxes not through the barrel of guns. The title of Asia sick man is now sadly handed to Thailand.

Extremely well put. Sad but true, it's a national tragedy for Thailand, from which Thailand is destined to learn nothing at all.

It's a 3rd-world nation full of 3rd-world people with 3rd-world educations and few saving graces. Very sad, but arrogance brings it's own reward, and they've had it shoved down their throats for decades that they are uniquely privileged because...

Sadly, that 'because' will end quite soon, and on that day, Thais will wake up to the reality which has been denied them by persistent and venal propaganda. Then the excrement will be in the fan, nobody likes to realise they've been taken for fools for someone else's benefit. History will not be very kind at all to the 'because'.

I believe that what we are witnessing now, what we are in the middle of (or at the beginning of), is the collapse of 'the Thai way'. I just hope the country survives but I suspect there are some hard times ahead for Thailand. And all on the watch of the 'Dumpy and Grumpy traveling circus'. I am so glad not to be in the Thai army, hard times a-coming...

Winnie

Winnie

Edited June 15, 2016 by Winniedapu

[Winniedapu]

"Anyway, none of this gives any reason why either foreign or UDD observers should be allowed. Actually it gives good reasons why they should be kept away."

What you are saying is that for some it's much more interesting to buy the 'red' areas as they are more populous and better able to deliver the 'election victory' required for a Shinawatra controlled business called Thailand. Just what was done in 2001.

You also seem to indicate such control is normal in Democracies. Interesting.

Anyway, none of this gives any reason why either foreign or UDD observers should be allowed. Actually it gives good reasons why they should be kept away.

Absolutely nothing gives any reason why foreign observers should be barred from observing the referendum. There is absolutely no downside unless the junta plans to rig it and a huge upside in international credibility (which this junta desperately needs) if it doesn't.

Given their refusal to allow observers I guess it's the former.

Well smutcakes calls things normal. Do you have foreign observers required in your home country? Does the EC requested to post foreign observers at British brexit referendum polling stations?

So, no reason.

Rubl you are being intentionally disingenous about my post but you know this. My post makes it clear it is normal for their to be pockets of support for political parties the world over, and there are variety of issues for this. This does not mean these areas are bought, it means for one reason or another they have preference for a particular party.

MZurf says their is no down side to having foregin obersevers. In fact one would of thought it welcomed by the powers that be, given they have assured everyone of their saintly objectives for over 2 years now. Just think how big a PR victory it would be for them to have observers here to see a well run and interference free process.

I fail to see how me saying that having pockets of strong political support for one party or another as being normal, relates to your post that foreign observers are not allowed in other countries? We are talking about the process of the vote rather than which way people will vote.

Please forgive my uninvited insertion into yet another irrationality from the increasingly odd and marginalised junta-huggers.

These people are not known for thinking in straight lines. Logic seems to be a bit more 'random' in their world, and it can't be much fun given the amount of scorn they generally attract.

Still, as the wheels continue to fall off their hero's caravan, the explanations and justifications can be predicted to become increasingly bizarre and convoluted. It's 100% possible and perhaps 100% desirable that one day, their contortions will be so extreme they will finally disappear up their own bottoms.

Sit back and watch in amusement I will.

Winnie.

Edited June 15, 2016 by Winniedapu

[rubl]

Well 11 replies in total from three 'nice' posters. The usual insinuations laced with personel attacks to hide the lack of substance I guess. Label someone 'junta supporter' and let everyones fantasy do the rest. Still waiting for a definition of 'junta supporter' and an explanation how and why such definition would apply to me. Our cute Pooh bear is being childish with his pat on the head. And of course Heybruce, Winnie and Mzurf emphasise and build their castle on each others assumptions, insinuations and other nonsense.

No good reason to allow or ask foreign observers and the 'no reason why they shouldn't be there' is no good reason either. Some of the 'nice' posters here have declared a few times that a referendum wasn't necessary as the junta would do what they want to do. So no cheating required. No foreign observers required. Furthermore as our most favourite criminal fugitive Thaksin is still positioning himself as 'de facto' UDD leader and with the UDD not even trying to refute and deny I see no reason for the UDD to be present.

Polling day there will be a few police officers and/or soldiers present. Should be enough and be acceptable. After all our possibly temporarily replacement caretaking PM the caretaking MoFA Surapong suggested in 2014 that the army declare Martial Law and sent soldiers to the polling stations so he could have the election his relative abroad so urgently desired. Having soldiers around is not intimidation voters it would seem.

So, there it is,

uncle rubl

Edited June 15, 2016 by rubl

[rubl]

"Anyway, none of this gives any reason why either foreign or UDD observers should be allowed. Actually it gives good reasons why they should be kept away."

What you are saying is that for some it's much more interesting to buy the 'red' areas as they are more populous and better able to deliver the 'election victory' required for a Shinawatra controlled business called Thailand. Just what was done in 2001.

You also seem to indicate such control is normal in Democracies. Interesting.

Anyway, none of this gives any reason why either foreign or UDD observers should be allowed. Actually it gives good reasons why they should be kept away.

Absolutely nothing gives any reason why foreign observers should be barred from observing the referendum. There is absolutely no downside unless the junta plans to rig it and a huge upside in international credibility (which this junta desperately needs) if it doesn't.

Given their refusal to allow observers I guess it's the former.

Well smutcakes calls things normal. Do you have foreign observers required in your home country? Does the EC requested to post foreign observers at British brexit referendum polling stations?

So, no reason.

Rubl you are being intentionally disingenous about my post but you know this. My post makes it clear it is normal for their to be pockets of support for political parties the world over, and there are variety of issues for this. This does not mean these areas are bought, it means for one reason or another they have preference for a particular party.

MZurf says their is no down side to having foregin obersevers. In fact one would of thought it welcomed by the powers that be, given they have assured everyone of their saintly objectives for over 2 years now. Just think how big a PR victory it would be for them to have observers here to see a well run and interference free process.

I fail to see how me saying that having pockets of strong political support for one party or another as being normal, relates to your post that foreign observers are not allowed in other countries? We are talking about the process of the vote rather than which way people will vote.

Paragraph one: no relation with the topic or observers, not even a relation with vote buying.

Paragraph two: no downside means no need. PR victories are not needed either. This is for the future of Thailand.

Paragraph three: I didn't say foreign observers are not allowed in others countries. I wrote

"Does the EC requested to post foreign observers at British brexit referendum polling stations?" with EC meant as European Community. After all lots of people seem to accuse the UK government of cheating and the tabloits are even furiously attacking. Still no one asks for foreign or even local observers. So why here? Because some non-Thai TVF posters 'demand' it? Because the UDD with criminal fugitive Thaksin as 'de facto' leader 'demands' it?

No good reasons.

[heybruce]

Well 11 replies in total from three 'nice' posters. The usual insinuations laced with personel attacks to hide the lack of substance I guess. Label someone 'junta supporter' and let everyones fantasy do the rest. Still waiting for a definition of 'junta supporter' and an explanation how and why such definition would apply to me. Our cute Pooh bear is being childish with his pat on the head. And of course Heybruce, Winnie and Mzurf emphasise and build their castle on each others assumptions, insinuations and other nonsense.

No good reason to allow or ask foreign observers and the 'no reason why they shouldn't be there' is no good reason either. Some of the 'nice' posters here have declared a few times that a referendum wasn't necessary as the junta would do what they want to do. So no cheating required. No foreign observers required. Furthermore as our most favourite criminal fugitive Thaksin is still positioning himself as 'de facto' UDD leader and with the UDD not even trying to refute and deny I see no reason for the UDD to be present.

Polling day there will be a few police officers and/or soldiers present. Should be enough and be acceptable. After all our possibly temporarily replacement caretaking PM the caretaking MoFA Surapong suggested in 2014 that the army declare Martial Law and sent soldiers to the polling stations so he could have the election his relative abroad so urgently desired. Having soldiers around is not intimidation voters it would seem.

So, there it is,

uncle rubl

In standard form rubl; having no answer doesn't prevent you from answering without any substance. Regarding:

"And of course Heybruce, Winnie and Mzurf emphasise and build their castle on each others assumptions, insinuations and other nonsense."

Below I have underlined the key points of my post, which is most of it. I kept it short and to the point. Please identify the parts that you consider to be "assumptions, insinuations and nonsense".

"Do you have foreign observers required in your home country?"

No, but they are welcome. However in my country we don't have people screaming "vote buying" whenever they don't like the election results.

We also don't have a military government that came to power by a coup against an elected government and that censors the press and freedom of speech. In fact, we don't have a lot of undemocratic things that Thailand currently has. That's why people don't trust the junta to stage a fair referendum.

So, reason.

Edit: It's also worth noting that in my country, and the EU countries, there is an active free press that can report on political issues without fear and censorship. Thailand doesn't have that. Another good reason for international election observers.

What part of this qualifies as assumptions, insinuations and nonsense?

Military rule after a coup against an elected government, censorship that prevents the press from independently monitoring the referendum, people insisting that past elections weren't fair. These seem like very good reasons for international observers for the election. Plus, the precedent was established in the 2011 elections. How can anyone hoping for a fair referendum argue against international observers?

"After all our possibly temporarily replacement caretaking PM the caretaking MoFA Surapong suggested in 2014 that the army declare Martial Law and sent soldiers to the polling stations so he could have the election his relative abroad so urgently desired. Having soldiers around is not intimidation voters it would seem."

A desperate plea from someone who mistakenly assumed the military would defend democracy. Instead of limited martial law to make a peaceful election possible, Thailand got a military coup.

BTW, regarding "criminal fugitive Thaksin". I knew you couldn't last long without bringing up your favorite off-topic diversion.

[smedly]

Well 11 replies in total from three 'nice' posters. The usual insinuations laced with personel attacks to hide the lack of substance I guess. Label someone 'junta supporter' and let everyones fantasy do the rest. Still waiting for a definition of 'junta supporter' and an explanation how and why such definition would apply to me. Our cute Pooh bear is being childish with his pat on the head. And of course Heybruce, Winnie and Mzurf emphasise and build their castle on each others assumptions, insinuations and other nonsense.

No good reason to allow or ask foreign observers and the 'no reason why they shouldn't be there' is no good reason either. Some of the 'nice' posters here have declared a few times that a referendum wasn't necessary as the junta would do what they want to do. So no cheating required. No foreign observers required. Furthermore as our most favourite criminal fugitive Thaksin is still positioning himself as 'de facto' UDD leader and with the UDD not even trying to refute and deny I see no reason for the UDD to be present.

Polling day there will be a few police officers and/or soldiers present. Should be enough and be acceptable. After all our possibly temporarily replacement caretaking PM the caretaking MoFA Surapong suggested in 2014 that the army declare Martial Law and sent soldiers to the polling stations so he could have the election his relative abroad so urgently desired. Having soldiers around is not intimidation voters it would seem.

So, there it is,

uncle rubl

Military rule after a coup against an elected government,

as usual a twisted version of the facts

The YL government was already gone before any military coup - we all know why, they broke the law

The military got involved because the situation was escalating and people were dying on the streets while the police stood by and did nothing under instructions from the then deposed shin government

A certain Divisive group were attempting to form an army and threatening sedition, I believe there is a death sentence for that

The military got all sides into a room for talks several times but no solution could be found, it was then that the military stepped in after exhausting every avenue and making a reasonable and determined effort to solve the situation by all other means.

Get you facts right heybruce - I normally ignore your posts and seldom respond to the distorted nonsense and divisive crap you spam here on TVF, are you the village clown farang seen on the red stage last week in a posted photo? what a misguided idiot he must be

[Winniedapu]

Well 11 replies in total from three 'nice' posters. The usual insinuations laced with personel attacks to hide the lack of substance I guess. Label someone 'junta supporter' and let everyones fantasy do the rest. Still waiting for a definition of 'junta supporter' and an explanation how and why such definition would apply to me. Our cute Pooh bear is being childish with his pat on the head. And of course Heybruce, Winnie and Mzurf emphasise and build their castle on each others assumptions, insinuations and other nonsense.

No good reason to allow or ask foreign observers and the 'no reason why they shouldn't be there' is no good reason either. Some of the 'nice' posters here have declared a few times that a referendum wasn't necessary as the junta would do what they want to do. So no cheating required. No foreign observers required. Furthermore as our most favourite criminal fugitive Thaksin is still positioning himself as 'de facto' UDD leader and with the UDD not even trying to refute and deny I see no reason for the UDD to be present.

Polling day there will be a few police officers and/or soldiers present. Should be enough and be acceptable. After all our possibly temporarily replacement caretaking PM the caretaking MoFA Surapong suggested in 2014 that the army declare Martial Law and sent soldiers to the polling stations so he could have the election his relative abroad so urgently desired. Having soldiers around is not intimidation voters it would seem.

So, there it is,

uncle rubl

Military rule after a coup against an elected government,

as usual a twisted version of the facts

The YL government was already gone before any military coup - we all know why, they broke the law

The military got involved because the situation was escalating and people were dying on the streets while the police stood by and did nothing under instructions from the then deposed shin government

A certain Divisive group were attempting to form an army and threatening sedition, I believe there is a death sentence for that

The military got all sides into a room for talks several times but no solution could be found, it was then that the military stepped in after exhausting every avenue and making a reasonable and determined effort to solve the situation by all other means.

Get you facts right heybruce - I normally ignore your posts and seldom respond to the distorted nonsense and divisive crap you spam here on TVF, are you the village clown farang seen on the red stage last week in a posted photo? what a misguided idiot he must be

Smedders you rascal, you're wrong.

YL was unseated (probably illegally but hey) by the Constitutional Court. The government had or subsequently dissolved parliament and when YL was offed, a caretaker Prime Minister was appointed.

To say the elected government had already gone is just not true, but hey, who am I to get in the way of a nice wet-dream eh? And the rest of the post has the same fingerprints.

Today is not going to be a good day, the dementers are at it already and it's not even 7am. Don't you people ever sleep?

Winnie

ps Smedders, how much would it cost me to have you ignore my posts too? And how could I tell you weren't cheating me and having a sneak peek?

Edited June 15, 2016 by Winniedapu

[smedly]

Well 11 replies in total from three 'nice' posters. The usual insinuations laced with personel attacks to hide the lack of substance I guess. Label someone 'junta supporter' and let everyones fantasy do the rest. Still waiting for a definition of 'junta supporter' and an explanation how and why such definition would apply to me. Our cute Pooh bear is being childish with his pat on the head. And of course Heybruce, Winnie and Mzurf emphasise and build their castle on each others assumptions, insinuations and other nonsense.

No good reason to allow or ask foreign observers and the 'no reason why they shouldn't be there' is no good reason either. Some of the 'nice' posters here have declared a few times that a referendum wasn't necessary as the junta would do what they want to do. So no cheating required. No foreign observers required. Furthermore as our most favourite criminal fugitive Thaksin is still positioning himself as 'de facto' UDD leader and with the UDD not even trying to refute and deny I see no reason for the UDD to be present.

Polling day there will be a few police officers and/or soldiers present. Should be enough and be acceptable. After all our possibly temporarily replacement caretaking PM the caretaking MoFA Surapong suggested in 2014 that the army declare Martial Law and sent soldiers to the polling stations so he could have the election his relative abroad so urgently desired. Having soldiers around is not intimidation voters it would seem.

So, there it is,

uncle rubl

Military rule after a coup against an elected government,

as usual a twisted version of the facts

The YL government was already gone before any military coup - we all know why, they broke the law

The military got involved because the situation was escalating and people were dying on the streets while the police stood by and did nothing under instructions from the then deposed shin government

A certain Divisive group were attempting to form an army and threatening sedition, I believe there is a death sentence for that

The military got all sides into a room for talks several times but no solution could be found, it was then that the military stepped in after exhausting every avenue and making a reasonable and determined effort to solve the situation by all other means.

Get you facts right heybruce - I normally ignore your posts and seldom respond to the distorted nonsense and divisive crap you spam here on TVF, are you the village clown farang seen on the red stage last week in a posted photo? what a misguided idiot he must be

Smedders you rascal, you're wrong.

YL was unseated (probably illegally but hey) by the Constitutional Court. The government had or subsequently dissolved parliament and when YL was offed, a caretaker Prime Minister was appointed.

To say the elected government had already gone is just not true,

your definition of "gone" is somewhat different from mine, lets just say "stood down" effectively the same thing, I noticed you didn't address the rest of my post lol

as for ignoring you - up to me, but yes I generally do for the same reason mentioned above and mzurf ausieinthailand equally so

[smutcakes]

Smedly can I just ask you a couple of simple questions, i would be interested to hear your response:

Corruption, coups, political shenanigans have been perpetuated by all Government bodies, civil bodies, armed forces, police, bureaucrats in Thailand since the beginning of time. The military has conducted about 12 successful coups prior to TS even entering Thai politics, and run the country for large parts of the time since 1932. The ills of society have never been tackled by any civilian or military Government.

My question would be: Why would you think this time will be any different than the numerous times before? Considering the amount of time that the military has spent in power since 1932 (possibly more than civilian Governments) would you not say at the very least that they are responsible just as much as any other party in the countries malaise? Yet you seem to believe that they are the solution?

[smedly]

Smedly can I just ask you a couple of simple questions, i would be interested to hear your response:

Corruption, coups, political shenanigans have been perpetuated by all Government bodies, civil bodies, armed forces, police, bureaucrats in Thailand since the beginning of time. The military has conducted about 12 successful coups prior to TS even entering Thai politics, and run the country for large parts of the time since 1932. The ills of society have never been tackled by any civilian or military Government.

My question would be: Why would you think this time will be any different than the numerous times before? Considering the amount of time that the military has spent in power since 1932 (possibly more than civilian Governments) would you not say at the very least that they are responsible just as much as any other party in the countries malaise? Yet you seem to believe that they are the solution?

I don't know the answer and neither does anyone else until elections are held and a new elected government is in place, I am willing to wait and see, I will also be the first one to criticise if the current PM's goals are not met and it turns out to be a red herring, but I am willing to wait and see

one thing that I do know is that change has to happen, I also know that no elected government in the past or future had or would have had any intent on ending corruption, I am also happy to see that the only opposition to the current process are generally those that have been enriching themselves off of corruption

If anything I don't think the current efforts are going far enough but at least a step in the right direction

[smutcakes]

Smedly can I just ask you a couple of simple questions, i would be interested to hear your response:

Corruption, coups, political shenanigans have been perpetuated by all Government bodies, civil bodies, armed forces, police, bureaucrats in Thailand since the beginning of time. The military has conducted about 12 successful coups prior to TS even entering Thai politics, and run the country for large parts of the time since 1932. The ills of society have never been tackled by any civilian or military Government.

My question would be: Why would you think this time will be any different than the numerous times before? Considering the amount of time that the military has spent in power since 1932 (possibly more than civilian Governments) would you not say at the very least that they are responsible just as much as any other party in the countries malaise? Yet you seem to believe that they are the solution?

I don't know the answer and neither does anyone else until elections are held and a new elected government is in place, I am willing to wait and see, I will also be the first one to criticise if the current PM's goals are not met and it turns out to be a red herring, but I am willing to wait and see

one thing that I do know is that change has to happen, I also know that no elected government in the past or future had or would have had any intent on ending corruption, I am also happy to see that the only opposition to the current process are generally those that have been enriching themselves off of corruption

If anything I don't think the current efforts are going far enough but at least a step in the right direction

Fair enough. I fail to see anything that has been done so far which is in anyway changing the system or meeting goals. There is zero point bringing in new laws etc, as the laws are not the problem, it is the non-enforcement and selective enforcement of the laws which is the issue, something which simply amending or adding laws does not address.

I would not disagree with elected Governments intending to end corruption, the same as military Governments, so again i don’t really understand why you would suddenly have faith in this one. In fact i would say it would be infinitely more difficult or suicidal for any elected Govt to try and stop corruption especially in certain institutions, or they would probably have a very short stay as the Govt. The NCPO have already made it clear police reform, judicial reform is not on their radar, so what change are you expecting?

[Winniedapu]

as usual a twisted version of the facts

Military rule after a coup against an elected government,

The YL government was already gone before any military coup - we all know why, they broke the law

The military got involved because the situation was escalating and people were dying on the streets while the police stood by and did nothing under instructions from the then deposed shin government

A certain Divisive group were attempting to form an army and threatening sedition, I believe there is a death sentence for that

The military got all sides into a room for talks several times but no solution could be found, it was then that the military stepped in after exhausting every avenue and making a reasonable and determined effort to solve the situation by all other means.

Get you facts right heybruce - I normally ignore your posts and seldom respond to the distorted nonsense and divisive crap you spam here on TVF, are you the village clown farang seen on the red stage last week in a posted photo? what a misguided idiot he must be

Smedders you rascal, you're wrong.

YL was unseated (probably illegally but hey) by the Constitutional Court. The government had or subsequently dissolved parliament and when YL was offed, a caretaker Prime Minister was appointed.

To say the elected government had already gone is just not true,

your definition of "gone" is somewhat different from mine, lets just say "stood down" effectively the same thing, I noticed you didn't address the rest of my post lol

as for ignoring you - up to me, but yes I generally do for the same reason mentioned above and mzurf ausieinthailand equally so

<deleted - no point>

Edited June 16, 2016 by Winniedapu

[heybruce]

Well 11 replies in total from three 'nice' posters. The usual insinuations laced with personel attacks to hide the lack of substance I guess. Label someone 'junta supporter' and let everyones fantasy do the rest. Still waiting for a definition of 'junta supporter' and an explanation how and why such definition would apply to me. Our cute Pooh bear is being childish with his pat on the head. And of course Heybruce, Winnie and Mzurf emphasise and build their castle on each others assumptions, insinuations and other nonsense.

No good reason to allow or ask foreign observers and the 'no reason why they shouldn't be there' is no good reason either. Some of the 'nice' posters here have declared a few times that a referendum wasn't necessary as the junta would do what they want to do. So no cheating required. No foreign observers required. Furthermore as our most favourite criminal fugitive Thaksin is still positioning himself as 'de facto' UDD leader and with the UDD not even trying to refute and deny I see no reason for the UDD to be present.

Polling day there will be a few police officers and/or soldiers present. Should be enough and be acceptable. After all our possibly temporarily replacement caretaking PM the caretaking MoFA Surapong suggested in 2014 that the army declare Martial Law and sent soldiers to the polling stations so he could have the election his relative abroad so urgently desired. Having soldiers around is not intimidation voters it would seem.

So, there it is,

uncle rubl

Military rule after a coup against an elected government,

as usual a twisted version of the facts

The YL government was already gone before any military coup - we all know why, they broke the law

The military got involved because the situation was escalating and people were dying on the streets while the police stood by and did nothing under instructions from the then deposed shin government

A certain Divisive group were attempting to form an army and threatening sedition, I believe there is a death sentence for that

The military got all sides into a room for talks several times but no solution could be found, it was then that the military stepped in after exhausting every avenue and making a reasonable and determined effort to solve the situation by all other means.

Get you facts right heybruce - I normally ignore your posts and seldom respond to the distorted nonsense and divisive crap you spam here on TVF, are you the village clown farang seen on the red stage last week in a posted photo? what a misguided idiot he must be

You deleted all of my post #118 except this sentence fragment then accuse me of twisting facts. You also ignore my detailed response in post #120 to one of your posts and instead choose to reply to a few words of my reply to one of rubl's posts. Why is that?

It is your version of events that is twisted. The PTP won the election, and the PTP was still in charge of the government and attempting to arrange elections in July 2014 when the military staged its coup in May. I believe there is a death sentence for that in some countries.

Care to tell us what "Divisive group" was attempting to form an army and threatening sedition"? Are you referring to Suthep and his minions?

Violence was not escalating, it was declining, along with protester numbers. Bangkok was returning to normal. The military had to act when it did to prevent an election, not to end the violence.

The military didn't exhaust every avenue prior to the coup, most notably they didn't make it clear the generals wanted an election and would use troops to assist the RTP in ensuring a peaceful election. That would have put an end to the protests very quickly. However elections would have resulted in a government not of the military's choosing with electoral legitimacy that would make a coup difficult. The military clearly didn't want that.

The military forced government and Suthep people into a room for a few hours for talks, but Suthep knew that all he had to do was refuse to compromise and Prayut would stage a coup, which is what Suthep wanted.

"Get you facts right heybruce - I normally ignore your posts and seldom respond to the distorted nonsense and divisive crap you spam here on TVF, are you the village clown farang seen on the red stage last week in a posted photo? what a misguided idiot he must be"

I corrected your "facts", not that it will help. You've demonstrated repeatedly that you have little interests in facts that can't be twisted to support continued military rule. I'm not the westerner on the stage. Strange question to ask.

[rubl]

So, a few more replies and nothing new. All assumptions which are suddenly of 'high value'.

To repeat, till now the reasoning for UDD and foreign observers is based on assumptions without real value. So, no need for observers.

PS also no need for insults gentlemen. Whatever value your post may have diminishes immediately if you think an insult is needed to booster the value of the rest.

[smutcakes]

So, a few more replies and nothing new. All assumptions which are suddenly of 'high value'.

To repeat, till now the reasoning for UDD and foreign observers is based on assumptions without real value. So, no need for observers.

PS also no need for insults gentlemen. Whatever value your post may have diminishes immediately if you think an insult is needed to booster the value of the rest.

Stop wumming, get out and have some fun.

[baboon]

So, a few more replies and nothing new. All assumptions which are suddenly of 'high value'.

To repeat, till now the reasoning for UDD and foreign observers is based on assumptions without real value. So, no need for observers.

PS also no need for insults gentlemen. Whatever value your post may have diminishes immediately if you think an insult is needed to booster the value of the rest.

The conclusion of the junta and therefore you. If the junta later decides otherwise so will you. If half of the junta de decides they want it and half don't, you will support both sides.

Great word, wumming.

No concensus that observers would not be desirable has been reached on here.

Edited June 16, 2016 by baboon

[smutcakes]

So, a few more replies and nothing new. All assumptions which are suddenly of 'high value'.

To repeat, till now the reasoning for UDD and foreign observers is based on assumptions without real value. So, no need for observers.

PS also no need for insults gentlemen. Whatever value your post may have diminishes immediately if you think an insult is needed to booster the value of the rest.

The conclusion of the junta and therefore you. If the junta later decides otherwise so will you. If half of the junta de decides they want it and half don't, you will support both sides.

Great word, wumming.

No concensus that observers would not be desirable has been reached on here.

Oh but it has, Rubl the self appointed great one has declared everything he disagrees with are assumptions without value.

They may as well pack the whole forum down and just have Rubl declaring whats right and wrong.

[baboon]

So, a few more replies and nothing new. All assumptions which are suddenly of 'high value'.

To repeat, till now the reasoning for UDD and foreign observers is based on assumptions without real value. So, no need for observers.

PS also no need for insults gentlemen. Whatever value your post may have diminishes immediately if you think an insult is needed to booster the value of the rest.

The conclusion of the junta and therefore you. If the junta later decides otherwise so will you. If half of the junta de decides they want it and half don't, you will support both sides.

Great word, wumming.

No concensus that observers would not be desirable has been reached on here.

Oh but it has, Rubl the self appointed great one has declared everything he disagrees with are assumptions without value.

They may as well pack the whole forum down and just have Rubl declaring whats right and wrong.

But why? Just have the junta do it and cut out the middle man. It might save them a few bob...

[heybruce]

So, a few more replies and nothing new. All assumptions which are suddenly of 'high value'.

To repeat, till now the reasoning for UDD and foreign observers is based on assumptions without real value. So, no need for observers.

PS also no need for insults gentlemen. Whatever value your post may have diminishes immediately if you think an insult is needed to booster the value of the rest.

I had to look up wumming: the verb form of wum (wind-up merchant), a predominantly online phenomena of espousing contrary viewpoints purely to string people along and get a reaction from others. a mild-mannered form of trolling.

Perfect description. Many excellent reasons for international observers to monitor the referendum, no reason not to have them for anyone interested in a fair vote. rubl rejects this without explanation other than to describe all reasons for observers--rule by a military that staged a coup against an elected government, censorship of the press and population at large, a history of vote buying that meant a great deal to junta supporters in the past but for some reason isn't important now--as assumptions without value.

As defending the junta and its actions becomes harder I predict rubl will use this tactic more frequently--abandon any pretense of rational debate and dismiss all posts he dislikes as being without value.

Regarding "no insults", it was just a few days ago that you dismissed my posts as "rubbish" without any explanation why. You can't insult others then expect them to respect your new "no insults" request. Just as you can't insist people stay narrowly focused on-topic on some threads while going wildly off-topic with "amnesty bill" and "convicted fugitive" on others.

[nausea]

Well it sure ain't a good sign, when the occupying power is scared to death of the opposition.

[rubl]

So, a few more replies and nothing new. All assumptions which are suddenly of 'high value'.

To repeat, till now the reasoning for UDD and foreign observers is based on assumptions without real value. So, no need for observers.

PS also no need for insults gentlemen. Whatever value your post may have diminishes immediately if you think an insult is needed to booster the value of the rest.

I had to look up wumming: the verb form of wum (wind-up merchant), a predominantly online phenomena of espousing contrary viewpoints purely to string people along and get a reaction from others. a mild-mannered form of trolling.

Perfect description. Many excellent reasons for international observers to monitor the referendum, no reason not to have them for anyone interested in a fair vote. rubl rejects this without explanation other than to describe all reasons for observers--rule by a military that staged a coup against an elected government, censorship of the press and population at large, a history of vote buying that meant a great deal to junta supporters in the past but for some reason isn't important now--as assumptions without value.

As defending the junta and its actions becomes harder I predict rubl will use this tactic more frequently--abandon any pretense of rational debate and dismiss all posts he dislikes as being without value.

Regarding "no insults", it was just a few days ago that you dismissed my posts as "rubbish" without any explanation why. You can't insult others then expect them to respect your new "no insults" request. Just as you can't insist people stay narrowly focused on-topic on some threads while going wildly off-topic with "amnesty bill" and "convicted fugitive" on others.

Apples and oranges. Plus a UDD which has a criminal fugitive as de facto leader and still demands to be present as observers. 'good reasons' only as seen by some depending on value given. No reason for PR as some suggested. Annoying isn't it, not even the UDD denies or tries to play down that 'de facto' leadership of our most favourite criminal fugitive. Still an excellent reason not to 'invite' the UDD to sent observers.

BTW describing post content as BS is not the same as calling someone a liar, or suggesting he has problems with the truth.

So, Heybruce the windup artist

Edited June 16, 2016 by rubl

[rubl]

So, a few more replies and nothing new. All assumptions which are suddenly of 'high value'.

To repeat, till now the reasoning for UDD and foreign observers is based on assumptions without real value. So, no need for observers.

PS also no need for insults gentlemen. Whatever value your post may have diminishes immediately if you think an insult is needed to booster the value of the rest.

The conclusion of the junta and therefore you. If the junta later decides otherwise so will you. If half of the junta de decides they want it and half don't, you will support both sides.

Great word, wumming.

No concensus that observers would not be desirable has been reached on here.

Oh but it has, Rubl the self appointed great one has declared everything he disagrees with are assumptions without value.

They may as well pack the whole forum down and just have Rubl declaring whats right and wrong.

But why? Just have the junta do it and cut out the middle man. It might save them a few bob...

As even Winnie reminded me when I explicitly wrote "this is my opinion", you guys also have opinions. Somewhat weird ones the last replies here suggest, but still your opinions.

There's no need for PR, the junta isn't into those 'democratic' games. To have foreign observers may be nice, but that's not good enough a reason, not even if the foreign organisation pays the bill.

As for having the UDD around. As long as they do not deny or play down having a criminal fugitive as 'de facto' leader they should be denied.

I wrote before, we'll have a few policemen and maybe a few soldiers around the polling stations and that should be enough. Even the temporarily taking care of the empty PM caretaker position the caretaking MoFA Surapong suggested the army raise Martial Law and post at polling stations for the election. So, from that side no objections either.

Edited June 16, 2016 by rubl

[baboon]

So, a few more replies and nothing new. All assumptions which are suddenly of 'high value'.

To repeat, till now the reasoning for UDD and foreign observers is based on assumptions without real value. So, no need for observers.

PS also no need for insults gentlemen. Whatever value your post may have diminishes immediately if you think an insult is needed to booster the value of the rest.

The conclusion of the junta and therefore you. If the junta later decides otherwise so will you. If half of the junta de decides they want it and half don't, you will support both sides.

Great word, wumming.

No concensus that observers would not be desirable has been reached on here.

Oh but it has, Rubl the self appointed great one has declared everything he disagrees with are assumptions without value.

They may as well pack the whole forum down and just have Rubl declaring whats right and wrong.

But why? Just have the junta do it and cut out the middle man. It might save them a few bob...

As even Winnie reminded me when I explicitly wrote "this is my opinion", you guys also have opinions. Somewhat weird ones the last replies here suggest, but still your opinions.

There's no need for PR, the junta isn't into those 'democratic' games. To have foreign observers may be nice, but that's not good enough a reason, not even if the foreign organisation pays the bill.

As for having the UDD around. As long as they do not deny or play down having a criminal fugitive as 'de facto' leader they should be denied.

I wrote before, we'll have a few policemen and maybe a few soldiers around the polling stations and that should be enough. Even the temporarily taking care of the empty PM caretaker position the caretaking MoFA Surapong suggested the army raise Martial Law and post at polling stations for the election. So, from that side no objections either.

Aye, to the junta by your own words and yourself by extension as an unwavering loyalist to them, democracy is a "game". Enough said.

Are the few policemen and maybe few soldiers round polling stations and the caretaking MOFA Surapong regular contributors here, then? And how do you know these a few policemen and maybe few soldiers are one with your categorical statement that there is no need for observers?

As agreed, no consensus that observers would not be desirable.

[heybruce]

So, a few more replies and nothing new. All assumptions which are suddenly of 'high value'.

To repeat, till now the reasoning for UDD and foreign observers is based on assumptions without real value. So, no need for observers.

PS also no need for insults gentlemen. Whatever value your post may have diminishes immediately if you think an insult is needed to booster the value of the rest.

I had to look up wumming: the verb form of wum (wind-up merchant), a predominantly online phenomena of espousing contrary viewpoints purely to string people along and get a reaction from others. a mild-mannered form of trolling.

Perfect description. Many excellent reasons for international observers to monitor the referendum, no reason not to have them for anyone interested in a fair vote. rubl rejects this without explanation other than to describe all reasons for observers--rule by a military that staged a coup against an elected government, censorship of the press and population at large, a history of vote buying that meant a great deal to junta supporters in the past but for some reason isn't important now--as assumptions without value.

As defending the junta and its actions becomes harder I predict rubl will use this tactic more frequently--abandon any pretense of rational debate and dismiss all posts he dislikes as being without value.

Regarding "no insults", it was just a few days ago that you dismissed my posts as "rubbish" without any explanation why. You can't insult others then expect them to respect your new "no insults" request. Just as you can't insist people stay narrowly focused on-topic on some threads while going wildly off-topic with "amnesty bill" and "convicted fugitive" on others.

Apples and oranges. Plus a UDD which has a criminal fugitive as de facto leader and still demands to be present as observers. 'good reasons' only as seen by some depending on value given. No reason for PR as some suggested. Annoying isn't it, not even the UDD denies or tries to play down that 'de facto' leadership of our most favourite criminal fugitive. Still an excellent reason not to 'invite' the UDD to sent observers.

BTW describing post content as BS is not the same as calling someone a liar, or suggesting he has problems with the truth.

So, Heybruce the windup artist

My posts were about the need for international monitors for the referendum, they had nothing to do with the UDD or PR. Many reasons good reasons have been given for international monitors, none have been given against them.

You posted:

"till now the reasoning for UDD and foreign observers is based on assumptions without real value."

Of course you don't attempt to explain why the excellent reason for foreign observers have no real value.

BTW nobody called you a liar that I'm aware of, though many people have called your posts BS. The difference is that when call call your posts BS we generally explain why. When you call other posts BS you don't explain why, which is insulting. It's also trolling.

Edited June 16, 2016 by heybruce

[Plutojames88]

Let these insidious people do their best.

Lie , cheat, steal , lock away and keep oppressive law.

Those who marched in Bangkok would be regretful .( by now)

Let sanctions occur .

Let the country slide.

This was all done in the name of elites.

Intervention by army coup came when only dozens remained listening to the hate filled ranters.

The excuses did not cut then (don't now.)

They are not a government but military body.

And the real cheating is even attempting audaciously to maintain that control.

As for westerners with faded memories or some distorted view of events why bother.

They are meaningless to the reality.

And the faster the army oppress and cement their dominance over the population the faster the population will realise its choices ahead.

And world respond in kind

Edited June 17, 2016 by Plutojames88

[Winniedapu]

Let these insidious people do their best.

Lie , cheat, steal , lock away and keep oppressive law.

Those who marched in Bangkok would be regretful .( by now)

Let sanctions occur .

Let the country slide.

This was all done in the name of elites.

Intervention by army coup came when only dozens remained listening to the hate filled ranters.

The excuses did not cut then (don't now.)

They are not a government but military body.

And the real cheating is even attempting audaciously to maintain that control.

As for westerners with faded memories or some distorted view of events why bother.

They are meaningless to the reality.

And the faster the army oppress and cement their dominance over the population the faster the population will realise its choices ahead.

And world respond in kind

Alas you're right.

I think Thailand is all done now. they've had to resort no to outright number fraud to maintain the illusion that a country in reverse is actually moving forward, mind you, how the Dumpy and Grumpy duet managed to fool anyone at all is a mystery to me. There really must be one born every minute.

If I wasn't well hidden away, I'd have long since ridden away. As it is, I'll watch from a lofty viewpoint as Thailand crashes and burns, because a jolly good crash and burn is absolutely in their tea-leaves.

Head-down, bun-up. popcorn at the ready and watch the Thai Pooyays, who foolishly trumpet themselves as world-leaders in anything people will listen to and be conned by, implode and self-immolate. I think I'll see a few of you TV guys in the good seats as well. High-quality entertainment this is...

Winnie

Edited June 17, 2016 by Winniedapu

[smutcakes]

Let these insidious people do their best.

Lie , cheat, steal , lock away and keep oppressive law.

Those who marched in Bangkok would be regretful .( by now)

Let sanctions occur .

Let the country slide.

This was all done in the name of elites.

Intervention by army coup came when only dozens remained listening to the hate filled ranters.

The excuses did not cut then (don't now.)

They are not a government but military body.

And the real cheating is even attempting audaciously to maintain that control.

As for westerners with faded memories or some distorted view of events why bother.

They are meaningless to the reality.

And the faster the army oppress and cement their dominance over the population the faster the population will realise its choices ahead.

And world respond in kind

They are not regretful- this is exactly what they want. Sure they might differ a little here and there, but overall they don’t want democracy and they certainly don’t want to have what they perceive as lower class people having a say in issues.

The massive irony about the anti-corruption protests being that the bed rock of them was formed by the Thai bureaucracy and Government sectors, which as anyone in Thailand knows are corrupt to the core.

I wish they would just call a spade a spade and say what it really is. It is simply the self-proclaimed upper class and their judicial, bureaucratic and military allies not wanting to lose control of the corruption/wealth that they have come to think as their divine right.

A simple look at most Government departments and the people working there would show a huge web of interlinked family /friend ties, they are like giant mafia organizations, who all just follow the leader, and invariably the leaders are part of the old Bangkok clique whose families have been milking the country since the beginning of time.

[smedly]

This discussion and most of the posts on this thread are quite frankly pointless, the UDD have no mandate or authority to even comment on such matters for a start.

Does anyone actually know what value an observer would add.............

When people vote they generally do it in private - no foul can be detected at that level

People talk about vote buying in Thailand like there is someone standing at the booth offering 500 baht to tick a certain box, that is not how vote buying in Thailand works, it all takes place in the villages through the head man, he distributes the funds to his flock and they are told to vote a certain way, they have no choice - money talks and elections are bought here, no observers will ever be in a position to witness vote buying in Thailand, nobody will ever dare speak out about it but we all no it goes on and is prolific

[rubl]

So, a few more replies and nothing new. All assumptions which are suddenly of 'high value'.

To repeat, till now the reasoning for UDD and foreign observers is based on assumptions without real value. So, no need for observers.

PS also no need for insults gentlemen. Whatever value your post may have diminishes immediately if you think an insult is needed to booster the value of the rest.

I had to look up wumming: the verb form of wum (wind-up merchant), a predominantly online phenomena of espousing contrary viewpoints purely to string people along and get a reaction from others. a mild-mannered form of trolling.

Perfect description. Many excellent reasons for international observers to monitor the referendum, no reason not to have them for anyone interested in a fair vote. rubl rejects this without explanation other than to describe all reasons for observers--rule by a military that staged a coup against an elected government, censorship of the press and population at large, a history of vote buying that meant a great deal to junta supporters in the past but for some reason isn't important now--as assumptions without value.

As defending the junta and its actions becomes harder I predict rubl will use this tactic more frequently--abandon any pretense of rational debate and dismiss all posts he dislikes as being without value.

Regarding "no insults", it was just a few days ago that you dismissed my posts as "rubbish" without any explanation why. You can't insult others then expect them to respect your new "no insults" request. Just as you can't insist people stay narrowly focused on-topic on some threads while going wildly off-topic with "amnesty bill" and "convicted fugitive" on others.

Apples and oranges. Plus a UDD which has a criminal fugitive as de facto leader and still demands to be present as observers. 'good reasons' only as seen by some depending on value given. No reason for PR as some suggested. Annoying isn't it, not even the UDD denies or tries to play down that 'de facto' leadership of our most favourite criminal fugitive. Still an excellent reason not to 'invite' the UDD to sent observers.

BTW describing post content as BS is not the same as calling someone a liar, or suggesting he has problems with the truth.

So, Heybruce the windup artist

My posts were about the need for international monitors for the referendum, they had nothing to do with the UDD or PR. Many reasons good reasons have been given for international monitors, none have been given against them.

You posted:

"till now the reasoning for UDD and foreign observers is based on assumptions without real value."

Of course you don't attempt to explain why the excellent reason for foreign observers have no real value.

BTW nobody called you a liar that I'm aware of, though many people have called your posts BS. The difference is that when call call your posts BS we generally explain why. When you call other posts BS you don't explain why, which is insulting. It's also trolling.

Good reasons is your interpretation and a few others. It seems based on distrust, unjustified distrust, expecially as the same guys suggested the referendum doesn't really matter. The suggestion by one of the PR value of having foreign observers is no valid reason.

There is no reason to have the UDD around as long as they have no problem with that criminal fugitive as 'de facto' leader. That 'self-exiled' running away from the law figure.

BTW you yourself called me a liar a while ago. I appended the clasp to my signature that time. You also called me 'associating with and being dregs of Thai society'. Some call me desperate or despicable or say I should be ashamed of myself. In another topic Winnie wrote " I'm sure this is not the first time in your life that honesty and a certain tendency to right-wing views have been a problem for you"

All because I have an opinion different from what you and others here tell I should have.

The truth will set you free and that's not trolling.