‘Scotland’s voice will be heard’ – Sturgeon vows to fight to maintain EU ties

[Jip99]

On the name calling I fully agree with you. There is no need for it and it is childish and foolish.

However, I just cannot get my head around this Independence from the UK and remain a part of the EU.

If she was calling for Independence for Scotland to make its own way in the world, I would actually support her if that is what the majority wanted.

Independence and being a part of the EU does not sit well with me.

Apparently it does with the Scots who voted by a substantial majority to remain in the European Union.

They voted to stay in the EU on the assumption that the UK as a whole would be part of it. Without the rest of the UK in the EU, it becomes a whole different question for Scotland - certainly not the question in the referendum. Sturgeon is naive not to understand that. And beyond naive not to understand that the EU will only deal with sovereign states. She's made a colossal fool of herself, and perhaps of Scotland.

We voted to remain in the UK partly on the lie that was disseminated that we would be banished from Europe for years afterwards were we to choose independence, and that remaining in the UK was the only way to ensure that we remained in the EU.

Brexit is a clear example of how Scottish wishes are irrelevant in the UK if they are not aligned with English wishes. I fully accept the counter argument that you cannot let a nation of 6 million override the wishes of a nation of 60 million - so the obvious conclusion is that we cannot go on together. Let's break up as amicably as possible?

I would find it hard to argue against a genuine call for independence by Scotland.

That is what the UK excluding Scotland (+ 1m Scots) have just voted for. Whilst I would have a strong preference for the UK to remain intact I would support Scotland's democratic right to leave.

What I still can't fathom out is how Sturgeon, or any other Scot, wants independence from London but is prepared to be shackled by Brussels.

Glasgow being named as European City of Culture does not make you European.

[RuamRudy]

They voted to stay in the EU on the assumption that the UK as a whole would be part of it. Without the rest of the UK in the EU, it becomes a whole different question for Scotland - certainly not the question in the referendum. Sturgeon is naive not to understand that. And beyond naive not to understand that the EU will only deal with sovereign states. She's made a colossal fool of herself, and perhaps of Scotland.

We voted to remain in the UK partly on the lie that was disseminated that we would be banished from Europe for years afterwards were we to choose independence, and that remaining in the UK was the only way to ensure that we remained in the EU.

Brexit is a clear example of how Scottish wishes are irrelevant in the UK if they are not aligned with English wishes. I fully accept the counter argument that you cannot let a nation of 6 million override the wishes of a nation of 60 million - so the obvious conclusion is that we cannot go on together. Let's break up as amicably as possible?

I would find it hard to argue against a genuine call for independence by Scotland.

That is what the UK excluding Scotland (+ 1m Scots) have just voted for. Whilst I would have a strong preference for the UK to remain intact I would support Scotland's democratic right to leave.

What I still can't fathom out is how Sturgeon, or any other Scot, wants independence from London but is prepared to be shackled by Brussels.

Glasgow being named as European City of Culture does not make you European.

.But we would not be shackled to anything. We would be willingly entering a union from which we could withdraw at any time, should we choose to do so. That is not the case with the UK. The Scottish Parliament is permitted by Westminster, but can be scrapped at a moment's notice and without the consent of the Scottish people. The status of Scotland is not in the hands of her people, but with a parliament controlled by a party represented by only 1 Scottish MP.

[brexiteer]

They voted to stay in the EU on the assumption that the UK as a whole would be part of it. Without the rest of the UK in the EU, it becomes a whole different question for Scotland - certainly not the question in the referendum. Sturgeon is naive not to understand that. And beyond naive not to understand that the EU will only deal with sovereign states. She's made a colossal fool of herself, and perhaps of Scotland.

We voted to remain in the UK partly on the lie that was disseminated that we would be banished from Europe for years afterwards were we to choose independence, and that remaining in the UK was the only way to ensure that we remained in the EU.

Brexit is a clear example of how Scottish wishes are irrelevant in the UK if they are not aligned with English wishes. I fully accept the counter argument that you cannot let a nation of 6 million override the wishes of a nation of 60 million - so the obvious conclusion is that we cannot go on together. Let's break up as amicably as possible?

I would find it hard to argue against a genuine call for independence by Scotland.

That is what the UK excluding Scotland (+ 1m Scots) have just voted for. Whilst I would have a strong preference for the UK to remain intact I would support Scotland's democratic right to leave.

What I still can't fathom out is how Sturgeon, or any other Scot, wants independence from London but is prepared to be shackled by Brussels.

Glasgow being named as European City of Culture does not make you European.

.But we would not be shackled to anything. We would be willingly entering a union from which we could withdraw at any time, should we choose to do so. That is not the case with the UK. The Scottish Parliament is permitted by Westminster, but can be scrapped at a moment's notice and without the consent of the Scottish people. The status of Scotland is not in the hands of her people, but with a parliament controlled by a party represented by only 1 Scottish MP.

A rather simplistic view of entry and exit terms.

In any event it is academic as the EU will not let you in.

[RuamRudy]

We voted to remain in the UK partly on the lie that was disseminated that we would be banished from Europe for years afterwards were we to choose independence, and that remaining in the UK was the only way to ensure that we remained in the EU.

Brexit is a clear example of how Scottish wishes are irrelevant in the UK if they are not aligned with English wishes. I fully accept the counter argument that you cannot let a nation of 6 million override the wishes of a nation of 60 million - so the obvious conclusion is that we cannot go on together. Let's break up as amicably as possible?

I would find it hard to argue against a genuine call for independence by Scotland.

That is what the UK excluding Scotland (+ 1m Scots) have just voted for. Whilst I would have a strong preference for the UK to remain intact I would support Scotland's democratic right to leave.

What I still can't fathom out is how Sturgeon, or any other Scot, wants independence from London but is prepared to be shackled by Brussels.

Glasgow being named as European City of Culture does not make you European.

.But we would not be shackled to anything. We would be willingly entering a union from which we could withdraw at any time, should we choose to do so. That is not the case with the UK. The Scottish Parliament is permitted by Westminster, but can be scrapped at a moment's notice and without the consent of the Scottish people. The status of Scotland is not in the hands of her people, but with a parliament controlled by a party represented by only 1 Scottish MP.

A rather simplistic view of entry and exit terms.

In any event it is academic as the EU will not let you in.

I never claimed to be an expert in constitutional affairs, but TV is hardly the Oxford Chambers either.

Is your even more simplistic assessment of EU entry criteria based on certain knowledge or have you been consulting tea leaves?

[RuamRudy]

I do wonder if the EU is/was a bit unhappy that Scotland was trying to break up the UK...

Probably not as unhappy as it is with the UK in creating unnecessary chaos withn the EU.

Scotland is not trying to break up the UK, merely some in Scotland want to exit it. If anything, England created the condition that led to this crisis.

[mommysboy]

Why is it Brexiters and Scots Nats don't have a clue about what comes afterwards.?

[RuamRudy]

Why is it Brexiters and Scots Nats don't have a clue about what comes afterwards.?

Because nothing is assured and any attempt to suggest otherwise is guess work and sophistry?

[Kwasaki]

Why is it Brexiters and Scots Nats don't have a clue about what comes afterwards.?

Because haven't read the tea leaves properly.

[dick dasterdly]

Why is it Brexiters and Scots Nats don't have a clue about what comes afterwards.?

Like the remainer Brit. govt. - who are paid to have plans in place?

[RuamRudy]

Created what....?

Anyone would think Scots are begging in the streets yet they have exactly the same social security, handouts etc as England and Wales.....

Scotland (SNP) tried very hard to break up the union, EU knows that..

Nobody is ignorant to the end goal of the SNP so the fact that they remain overwhelmingly in favour with the Scottish electorate can only be taken as overt endorsement of their aims.

So, yes, an increasing number of Scots are wishing for Scotland to exit the union, as is their democratic right to do so. Harsh as it may sound, that it offends you is of no consequence.

[vogie]

Created what....?

Anyone would think Scots are begging in the streets yet they have exactly the same social security, handouts etc as England and Wales.....

Scotland (SNP) tried very hard to break up the union, EU knows that..

Nobody is ignorant to the end goal of the SNP so the fact that they remain overwhelmingly in favour with the Scottish electorate can only be taken as overt endorsement of their aims.

So, yes, an increasing number of Scots are wishing for Scotland to exit the union, as is their democratic right to do so. Harsh as it may sound, that it offends you is of no consequence.

When the scots realise that the EU has no interest in Scotland I very much doubt that the Scots would vote to leave the Union and become Billy no mates.

[SgtRock]

Why is it Brexiters and Scots Nats don't have a clue about what comes afterwards.?

I think you will find that Brexiters have many Great idea's for taking the UK forward on exiting the EU.

But you confuse them with limp wristed, spineless Politicians who cannot make a decision without keeping an eye open for their next station on the gravy train line.

[SgtRock]

Created what....?

Anyone would think Scots are begging in the streets yet they have exactly the same social security, handouts etc as England and Wales.....

Scotland (SNP) tried very hard to break up the union, EU knows that..

Nobody is ignorant to the end goal of the SNP so the fact that they remain overwhelmingly in favour with the Scottish electorate can only be taken as overt endorsement of their aims.

So, yes, an increasing number of Scots are wishing for Scotland to exit the union, as is their democratic right to do so. Harsh as it may sound, that it offends you is of no consequence.

When the scots realise that the EU has no interest in Scotland I very much doubt that the Scots would vote to leave the Union and become Billy no mates.

When it is made clear that adopting the euro is mandatory a lot of people will change their minds.

[RuamRudy]

Nobody is ignorant to the end goal of the SNP so the fact that they remain overwhelmingly in favour with the Scottish electorate can only be taken as overt endorsement of their aims.

So, yes, an increasing number of Scots are wishing for Scotland to exit the union, as is their democratic right to do so. Harsh as it may sound, that it offends you is of no consequence.

My point is Scotland wanted to break up a 300 year old UK union but are tearing their hair out to be controlled by Germans....

I go back to my post #185 - the UK is not a union of equals.. We do not even control our membership to that union - all is in the hands of a government that we may endorse but can never determine. Within the EU, we will have a full seat at the negotiating table, but have the ability to exit should we feel that our needs were no longer being met.

[RuamRudy]

Nobody is ignorant to the end goal of the SNP so the fact that they remain overwhelmingly in favour with the Scottish electorate can only be taken as overt endorsement of their aims.

So, yes, an increasing number of Scots are wishing for Scotland to exit the union, as is their democratic right to do so. Harsh as it may sound, that it offends you is of no consequence.

When the scots realise that the EU has no interest in Scotland I very much doubt that the Scots would vote to leave the Union and become Billy no mates.

At the risk of offending any TV member from Albania, Kosovo, Croatia or any of the other Balkan countries in the process of becoming members, I would suggest that Scotland is equally, if not more, attractive a candidate.

However don't let me ruin that bitter little thrill of spite you got from writing such nonsense as your last post.

[vogie]

Nobody is ignorant to the end goal of the SNP so the fact that they remain overwhelmingly in favour with the Scottish electorate can only be taken as overt endorsement of their aims.

So, yes, an increasing number of Scots are wishing for Scotland to exit the union, as is their democratic right to do so. Harsh as it may sound, that it offends you is of no consequence.

When the scots realise that the EU has no interest in Scotland I very much doubt that the Scots would vote to leave the Union and become Billy no mates.

At the risk of offending any TV member from Albania, Kosovo, Croatia or any of the other Balkan countries in the process of becoming members, I would suggest that Scotland is equally, if not more, attractive a candidate.

However don't let me ruin that bitter little thrill of spite you got from writing such nonsense as your last post.

I get no thrill out of the thought of the United Kingdom disintegrating, and I truly believe you are speaking for your beloved SNP and not the majority of your fellow Scots.

[RuamRudy]

At the risk of offending any TV member from Albania, Kosovo, Croatia or any of the other Balkan countries in the process of becoming members, I would suggest that Scotland is equally, if not more, attractive a candidate.

However don't let me ruin that bitter little thrill of spite you got from writing such nonsense as your last post.

I get no thrill out of the thought of the United Kingdom disintegrating, and I truly believe you are speaking for your beloved SNP and not the majority of your fellow Scots.

You do realise that the SNP is not the only party with MSPs in Holyrood who have Scottish independence as one of their manifesto pledges?

I was a member of the SNP in the early 90s however, for reasons that escape me now, I let my membership lapse. It is not an institution of which I am in awe, nor do I hold it beyond reproach.

[Bunnychow]

Nobody is ignorant to the end goal of the SNP so the fact that they remain overwhelmingly in favour with the Scottish electorate can only be taken as overt endorsement of their aims.

So, yes, an increasing number of Scots are wishing for Scotland to exit the union, as is their democratic right to do so. Harsh as it may sound, that it offends you is of no consequence.

When the scots realise that the EU has no interest in Scotland I very much doubt that the Scots would vote to leave the Union and become Billy no mates.

At the risk of offending any TV member from Albania, Kosovo, Croatia or any of the other Balkan countries in the process of becoming members, I would suggest that Scotland is equally, if not more, attractive a candidate.

However don't let me ruin that bitter little thrill of spite you got from writing such nonsense as your last post.

I did read somewhere that Scotland being admitted to the EU would end up the like Greece, but without the sun

[dick dasterdly]

As the article pointed out, Scotland is not as badly positioned as Greece when the EU allowed fudged figures for its entry.

On the other hand, I doubt Scotland can afford to join the EU unless the subsidies equal the payment.

We'll see and its up to Scotland to decide.

One hell of a lot will be going on in both the UK and EU before Scotland has to make its decision!

[i claudius]

I think Sturgeon has two hopes and one of them is Bob

[Kwasaki]

I think Sturgeon has two hopes and one of them is Bob

Hope and no Hope.

[nontabury]

I do wonder if the EU is/was a bit unhappy that Scotland was trying to break up the UK...

Probably not as unhappy as it is with the UK in creating unnecessary chaos withn the EU.

Scotland is not trying to break up the UK, merely some in Scotland want to exit it. If anything, England created the condition that led to this crisis.

You may be correct with your first part. However I do not think England created the crisis with the EU. More like those two Scottish Prime ministers, Tony WMD Blair and Gordon Bigot Brown.

[nontabury]

Nobody is ignorant to the end goal of the SNP so the fact that they remain overwhelmingly in favour with the Scottish electorate can only be taken as overt endorsement of their aims.

So, yes, an increasing number of Scots are wishing for Scotland to exit the union, as is their democratic right to do so. Harsh as it may sound, that it offends you is of no consequence.

My point is Scotland wanted to break up a 300 year old UK union but are tearing their hair out to be controlled by Germans....

I go back to my post #185 - the UK is not a union of equals.. We do not even control our membership to that union - all is in the hands of a government that we may endorse but can never determine. Within the EU, we will have a full seat at the negotiating table, but have the ability to exit should we feel that our needs were no longer being met.

/////////:/::/

Exactly can be said of those periods during the last 100 yrs when we had Scottish Prime ministers and a majority Scottish cabinet. If Scotland does eventually join the EU,that's of course if the EU is still in existence, it will certainly have a seat,the thing is, it will be a very small seat,and I cannot imagine the Europeans bending over backwards,the same as now with the remaining UK,in order to accept their demands.

[RuamRudy]

Probably not as unhappy as it is with the UK in creating unnecessary chaos withn the EU.

Scotland is not trying to break up the UK, merely some in Scotland want to exit it. If anything, England created the condition that led to this crisis.

You may be correct with your first part. However I do not think England created the crisis with the EU. More like those two Scottish Prime ministers, Tony WMD Blair and Gordon Bigot Brown.

But let's be realistic - no politician is going to win an election by playing to the Scottish electorate. At best, we merely validate UK general election results. No, the Blairite agenda was formulated with England in mind. He offered you what you wanted.

[nontabury]

Probably not as unhappy as it is with the UK in creating unnecessary chaos withn the EU.

Scotland is not trying to break up the UK, merely some in Scotland want to exit it. If anything, England created the condition that led to this crisis.

You may be correct with your first part. However I do not think England created the crisis with the EU. More like those two Scottish Prime ministers, Tony WMD Blair and Gordon Bigot Brown.

But let's be realistic - no politician is going to win an election by playing to the Scottish electorate. At best, we merely validate UK general election results. No, the Blairite agenda was formulated with England in mind. He offered you what you wanted.

And what does N.S. Offer the people of Scotland.p.s this poster sent to me by Scots living in Scotland.

[RuamRudy]

Probably not as unhappy as it is with the UK in creating unnecessary chaos withn the EU.

Scotland is not trying to break up the UK, merely some in Scotland want to exit it. If anything, England created the condition that led to this crisis.

You may be correct with your first part. However I do not think England created the crisis with the EU. More like those two Scottish Prime ministers, Tony WMD Blair and Gordon Bigot Brown.

But let's be realistic - no politician is going to win an election by playing to the Scottish electorate. At best, we merely validate UK general election results. No, the Blairite agenda was formulated with England in mind. He offered you what you wanted.

And what does N.S. Offer the people of Scotland.p.s this poster sent to me by Scots living in Scotland.

That is a new low for you, NB. I appreciate that civic nationalism is a difficult concept to understand for those who are neither generous of spirit nor wealth, but you should read about it, educate yourself on what the Scottish Independence movement is all about.

I was thinking last night about how you claim to find so many anti-SNP posters on Facebook, yet I have never seen 95% of them. I think you are simply cutting and pasting from old copies of the Torygraph or Daily Mail?

[Bunnychow]

Probably not as unhappy as it is with the UK in creating unnecessary chaos withn the EU.

Scotland is not trying to break up the UK, merely some in Scotland want to exit it. If anything, England created the condition that led to this crisis.

You may be correct with your first part. However I do not think England created the crisis with the EU. More like those two Scottish Prime ministers, Tony WMD Blair and Gordon Bigot Brown.

But let's be realistic - no politician is going to win an election by playing to the Scottish electorate. At best, we merely validate UK general election results. No, the Blairite agenda was formulated with England in mind. He offered you what you wanted.

And what does N.S. Offer the people of Scotland.p.s this poster sent to me by Scots living in Scotland.

That is a new low for you, NB. I appreciate that civic nationalism is a difficult concept to understand for those who are neither generous of spirit nor wealth, but you should read about it, educate yourself on what the Scottish Independence movement is all about.

I was thinking last night about how you claim to find so many anti-SNP posters on Facebook, yet I have never seen 95% of them. I think you are simply cutting and pasting from old copies of the Torygraph or Daily Mail?

Funny how the "Brexit'ers" when citing civic nationalism as a reason to get out of Europe they were branded right wing, racist and a few other choice terms by the "remainers" but it appears the SNP want to remain in the EU, but want independance from the UK one the basis of civic nationalism...SNP speak with forked tongue me thinks

[RuamRudy]

Scotland is not trying to break up the UK, merely some in Scotland want to exit it. If anything, England created the condition that led to this crisis.

You may be correct with your first part. However I do not think England created the crisis with the EU. More like those two Scottish Prime ministers, Tony WMD Blair and Gordon Bigot Brown.

But let's be realistic - no politician is going to win an election by playing to the Scottish electorate. At best, we merely validate UK general election results. No, the Blairite agenda was formulated with England in mind. He offered you what you wanted.

And what does N.S. Offer the people of Scotland.p.s this poster sent to me by Scots living in Scotland.

That is a new low for you, NB. I appreciate that civic nationalism is a difficult concept to understand for those who are neither generous of spirit nor wealth, but you should read about it, educate yourself on what the Scottish Independence movement is all about.

I was thinking last night about how you claim to find so many anti-SNP posters on Facebook, yet I have never seen 95% of them. I think you are simply cutting and pasting from old copies of the Torygraph or Daily Mail?

Funny how the "Brexit'ers" when citing civic nationalism as a reason to get out of Europe they were branded right wing, racist and a few other choice terms by the "remainers" but it appears the SNP want to remain in the EU, but want independance from the UK one the basis of civic nationalism...SNP speak with forked tongue me thinks

I think that you are confusing Nationalism and Civic Nationalism. They are distinctly different concepts: UKIP is clearly welded to the former, whereas the SNP embrace the latter.

"Civic nationalism, also known as liberal nationalism, is a kind of nationalism identified by political philosophers who believe in a non-xenophobic form of nationalism compatible with values of freedom, tolerance, equality, and individual rights."

"Nationalism is a shared group feeling in the significance of a geographical and sometimes demographic region seeking independence for its culture or ethnicity that holds that group together."

[nontabury]

Probably not as unhappy as it is with the UK in creating unnecessary chaos withn the EU.

Scotland is not trying to break up the UK, merely some in Scotland want to exit it. If anything, England created the condition that led to this crisis.

You may be correct with your first part. However I do not think England created the crisis with the EU. More like those two Scottish Prime ministers, Tony WMD Blair and Gordon Bigot Brown.

But let's be realistic - no politician is going to win an election by playing to the Scottish electorate. At best, we merely validate UK general election results. No, the Blairite agenda was formulated with England in mind. He offered you what you wanted.

And what does N.S. Offer the people of Scotland.p.s this poster sent to me by Scots living in Scotland.

That is a new low for you, NB. I appreciate that civic nationalism is a difficult concept to understand for those who are neither generous of spirit nor wealth, but you should read about it, educate yourself on what the Scottish Independence movement is all about.

I was thinking last night about how you claim to find so many anti-SNP posters on Facebook, yet I have never seen 95% of them. I think you are simply cutting and pasting from old copies of the Torygraph or Daily Mail?

//////////////

Two points,I do NOT go around looking for anti-SNP posters on Facebook. Neither do I cut and paste from newspapers. This poster and others are sent to me from, I repeat, from Scots living in Scotland. If you don't

Ike these posters take it up with the Scottish people.I'm just a messenger.

Here is another. Again sent from Scotland.

[RuamRudy]

Probably not as unhappy as it is with the UK in creating unnecessary chaos withn the EU.

Scotland is not trying to break up the UK, merely some in Scotland want to exit it. If anything, England created the condition that led to this crisis.

You may be correct with your first part. However I do not think England created the crisis with the EU. More like those two Scottish Prime ministers, Tony WMD Blair and Gordon Bigot Brown.

But let's be realistic - no politician is going to win an election by playing to the Scottish electorate. At best, we merely validate UK general election results. No, the Blairite agenda was formulated with England in mind. He offered you what you wanted.

And what does N.S. Offer the people of Scotland.p.s this poster sent to me by Scots living in Scotland.

That is a new low for you, NB. I appreciate that civic nationalism is a difficult concept to understand for those who are neither generous of spirit nor wealth, but you should read about it, educate yourself on what the Scottish Independence movement is all about.

I was thinking last night about how you claim to find so many anti-SNP posters on Facebook, yet I have never seen 95% of them. I think you are simply cutting and pasting from old copies of the Torygraph or Daily Mail?

//////////////

Two points,I do NOT go around looking for anti-SNP posters on Facebook. Neither do I cut and paste from newspapers. This poster and others are sent to me from, I repeat, from Scots living in Scotland. If you don't

Ike these posters take it up with the Scottish people.I'm just a messenger.

Here is another. Again sent from Scotland.

It is not that I don't like them - quite the opposite, Most folk with half an ounce of sense can see them for what they are: crude and desperate attempts at smearing a well respected and credibly performing government by a small number of bitter people with huge chips on their shoulders. They actually work in our favour - I think nobody will fall for Project Fear again but this will galvanise the uncertain. So please keep posting them, they are hilarious in their ridiculous claims.

No, the reason I asked was that despite having friends vociferous on both sides of the debate, I have literally never seen the signs or posters anywhere other than your TV posts. Maybe it just proves how few people actually believe this tosh.