Drugs Murder at Pattaya Temple

[gemguy]

Life ill always be cheap in Thailand until the authorities stop baby sitting these psycho's and hand out proper sentences like the death penalty for murder. Many here talk about Europe and the nanny states and they are correct I admit but Thailand is far worse. Kill someone and the law is made to suit the individual. This has to be wrong. One crime one law one sentence. Without it the country will never really progress.

You are right of course. But Thailand will not change, it will always be as such and they will never listen to foreigners (except the rich ones like Bill Gates, ).

I believe it all boils down to the same old issues, "Face" and the inability to deal with conflict. Everything is corrupted by these facts, all the decisions they make, the laws they uphold, the enforcing of laws, the changes they make, accountability, problem solving,, absolutely everything. And until the day when Thailand starts to adopt a more honest, straight and accountable attitude towards it's own country I can't see anything changing, all I can see is superficial lip service at best.

Life is just so cheap, the guy was out of it but not so out of it that he could not remember the previous arrangement of 1,000 baht for his pills. This again, all about "face", he believed he got ripped off which is a loss of face and in his anger beat the man to death,,, unbelievable.

Before anyone says "ahh, but this happens everywhere" in some attempt to defend their own personal decision to chose Thailand as their home, I know terrible things can happen anywhere. But the "face" and conflict resolution issues are quite unique here and have absolutely no place in todays world at all. If people cannot appoint blame, make people accountable and worse, debate things without suddenly flipping into violence how can they ever hope to find a solid place in todays World.

RIP the poor fella who lost his life, might not have been a model citizen but checking out this way over 30usd is terribly sad.

Your right of course...but all of what you say and or recommend and others having reiterated time and time and time again.....will not stop the individuals who do perpetrate such crimes while each individual persons crime is an individual event...but statistically becomes part of the numerous crimes that are categorized for the record.

Arresting and jailing and prosecuting and finally imprisoning each person that is apprehended does not stop the other individual from committing the same or similar crime 100 yards down the road or 1000 miles away.

They are not thinking at all about the laws rather just going through the motions created by emotional anger...while it happens rather fast most times while most of the perps. surprise themselves with what they just did...in 5 seconds or 10 seconds of emotional rage.

Seldom is it premeditated.

Cheers

I agree, not premeditated. not sure you are correct on your assessment of it being an individual event and therefore unavoidable. All crimes are individual events and the occurrence of these events, in my opinion would be considerably reduced if Thailand were to start thinking logically and rationally and dropping this stupid "face" phenomenon.

Face is a factor here in Thailand but then again we have to use the USA and Britain and Australia and Canada and numerous European countries as examples where the citizens do not subscribe to the ideals of face saving...not at all...yet the same or similar crimes exist in those countries.

In particular there are all kinds of criminal activities associated with drug trafficking and drug consumption including the killing of people while the drug addict is stoned....and nothing to do with face....rather Revenge, misconstrued Disrespect, Uncontrolled Anger and Aggression.....

Meantime I do comprehend the meaning of what you are reiterating while slooooooooly the nation will alter its collective thinking and collective mentality....but not in our life time....lol

Yes the face thing adds to the problem with out a doubt but there is so much more to crime in general than face saving while the laws and or law enforcement do not stop a percent of the people from bending any of the laws or outright violating those laws while criminality goes on in every country and even with the strictest enforcement of the laws.

Unless you want to live in a country like North Korea and that level of government control and law enforcement over the people and the whole nation where very little crime goes on such as drug addiction and the social ramifications of drug consumption...such as the OP highlights.

It would help if the people themselves, the citizens, would be more accountable and cooperate and abide by the laws more so than society becoming reliant on the government entities to strictly enforce the laws and having to chase people down for violations of the many existing laws.

But, in every country, that is not the case while there is always, always more law breaking than there is sufficient law enforcement to stop the law breaking.

It is to be noted that (every) country that develops into a liberal, affluent society ( a Democracy ) eventually evolves into a Nation with more more and more and continually more laws being passed to control the people of that nation while a growing percent of the populace is incarcerated in the prisons of those countries.

For example: Laws and regulations pertaining to cell phones.

Before cell phones became a common part of everyone's law abiding life style there were less laws...but now there are numerous additional laws pertaining specifically to cell phones regarding the manufacturing of the items and the selling of the items and the use of the items while driving and texting or talking on your cell phone at the same time can result in a fine and or sometimes, for some individuals, prison time and in effect turn you into a criminal if you are caught violating those new laws.

So, for the record you are a criminal because you violated just one of the hundreds of existing laws.

The other laws you did not violate...but the anti texting and anti operating a cell phone while driving laws, you did violate ...so now you have a criminal record and the system does not forget and it can and will be used against you...regardless of your opinions and your protests.

The more laws there are the more law breaking occurs and more law enforcement is needed.

So, even without the face factor there would still be plenty of criminality occurring throughout the Kingdom as Thailand and Thai people are not without a degree of nefarious human nature and always omnipresent

Cheers

[D3030]

....problems....what problems.....???

Does say 1 June this happened, so not an important one as well..

[dunroaming]

Just another day Pattaya. Part of the wonderful tapestry of life in Thailand

[Shadychris]

The health minister want to decriminalize Yabba, what will be his stance on crimes committed because

of the use of Yabba and all it's consequents I wonder?......

The decriminalizing of any recreational drug, has an immediate effect. It removes these drugs from the clandestine

marketing between criminals and orgnaised crime within the military and police.

It has at least one other effect. It is no longer romanticized by the young as something desirable because it is forbidden.

Forbidden fruit is always sweeter.

How you progress from there is a long hard road of education. People will always take a risk for a rush and as we know, yaba is a very poor man's coke. As we also know, drugs have three main purposes. Stimulation, or inhbibition and medication. Escaping from the boredom and pain of poverty, brought about by lack of education and fair government is a fair avenue.

Concentrate on education and fair governance and the need for drugs goes away. The desire for them may stay, but that's the human condition.

Some of us have healthy ways of getting a buzz, from sport and the like, but the peoples of the world 'are' drug takers. Admitting it and dealing with it are better alternatives than sweeping it under the illegal carpet, where the most nefarious networks of drug dealers from street mules to high ranking police are making money and misery from it.

A very interesting and sensible post, thank you Maggusoil.

I'd like to make two additional remarks :

1/ I have always felt that one big reason (perhaps even the main reason) why authorities, in every country, take so long in taking your point of view is that said authorities are more often than not involved in the traffic, one way or another. Just like politicians won't vote for a law that reduces their privileges, opportunities, wages etc. they won't decriminalize drugs if too many of them (of course not everyone) are somehow on the take. That makes the problem a lot more difficult to tackle.

2/ Reducing drugs to a 'problem of the poor' seems to me to miss the bigger picture. There are also lots and lots of rich, educated, privileged people who are hooked. Hollywood is full of alcoholics and drugs addicts, for example, and it's a known fact. In the world of big finance, the guys are almost all high on cocaine whenever they work. Examples abound to prove that great numbers of rich people become addicted to drugs too. So ... 'lack of education', 'escaping the boredom and pain of poverty', yes it's certainly true in a number of cases, but there is much more to the phenomenon of drug taking, don't you think ?

Great thread with very balanced and thought provoking views.

Not sure whether I can really add too much except I too do not think it is just an option for the poor, it is widespread. Indeed thats the problem with the drug trade, it has a product to fit all budgets. Cheap crap to designer crap, if someone wants it there is a product to fit your budget.

The issue is certainly education but also I am drawn to the point that "forbidden fruit is always sweeter", sad but true.

I personally detest drugs and I believe anyone who participates needs to have their head examined. Education is the key of course but if it is legalised, taxed and controlled it will also be easier to create a stigma around how socially unacceptable it is. The same thing happened to tabaccoo, the last 30 years has seen a huge change in global attitude towards smoking.

So, as much as I hate the idea of legalising it my opinion is slowly changing, and these 2 posts are examples why people like me who are anti legalisation need to re think.

Have a great day Gentleman.

Indeed a very good thread with all credit to Maggusoil for such well written reasoning of the argument for the decriminalisation of drugs.

It's great that you are re-evaluating your standpoint on the issue. Perhaps something worth looking at is the real rationale why you and others say 'you detest drugs' or think that people that use them recreationally have some psychological disorder? Many that make such statements have no problem with drinking alcohol or smoking (tobacco) in order to give themselves pleasure or a nice 'buzz', yet both of those drugs can cause just as much damage to the individual's health and society at large as any 'controlled' drug.

For sure there may be some drug users who have psychological issues before they begin to take drugs, and it is a known fact that the regular use of the majority of controlled drugs can cause varying degrees of psychological problems ranging from mild paranoia to extreme schizophrenia, along with other more general health issues, However that is also the case for those who participate in the regular and heavy consumption of alcohol or even tobacco.

However, for every person that chooses to use drugs (for whatever reason), that is affected psychologically by them, or causes them to have negative effect on society, I am sure that there is at least one other person who is able to use drugs recreationally in a controlled manner and live a perfectly well ordered life, contributing to society in a worthwhile way - in much the same way that not everyone that likes to drink alcohol is a waster and a menace to society. There seems to be a level of stigma attached to recreational drugs and those that choose to use them that often precludes having a well balanced and rational debate on the subject.

From the point of view of someone who used cannabis regularly for most of my life, and have also tried and used other substances on a less regular basis, the thing that I most 'detested' was that I had no other option than to buy my drug of choice from criminals. The profits of which eventually filtered back through to larger organised crime - with all the associations that go with that - human trafficking, illegal arms sales, terrorism etc etc.

It is for sure a big debate, and a very contentious one at that. The one thing that is incontrovertibly apparent though is that the 'war' on drugs approach has not, and never will be successful. On the other hand it is becoming increasingly apparent that a more engaged approach involving considered and balanced measures of legalisation and decriminalisation, along with education, can and has produced positive results.

Edited July 2, 2016 by Shadychris

[sahibji]

another tragedy perhaps brought on by drug abuse.

but what price life.the offender must have been in

terrible frame of mind to act the way he did.

[Basil B]

Well at least neither were wearing saffron robes...

[The Deerhunter]

All for a 1000 baht. Life is cheap in yabaaland.

People killed for less in the USA. (my country) Don't be so fast to condemn Thailand until you've been to Orlando, Chicago, or Detroit.

So life is cheap in Orlando,Chicago and Detroit too.

Yes running girls or selling drugs "on someone-else's turf" will get you killed just as dead in those or many other western dig cities in a surprising number of countries. The difference in Thailand is this "face" thing which is also tied up with never showing emotions, They do not understand how to show displeasure or confrontation in a controlled manner. Everything is all "smiles and wais" until you have so much bottled up that there is no holding it and one little incident.

Three things Thailand is not a "hub of" are preventative maintenance, accepting responsibility for one's own actions and non-violent dispute resolution. They are all culturally unsupported concepts. Part of "Thainess" if you wish.

[dotpoom]

All for a 1000 baht. Life is cheap in yabaaland.

And in Chicago where I just heard that 10 people die every day from shootings.......just over 2 of them drug related shootings

Edited July 2, 2016 by dotpoom

[Sooo Upto Me]

All for a 1000 baht. Life is cheap in yabaaland.

People killed for less in the USA. (my country) Don't be so fast to condemn Thailand until you've been to Orlando, Chicago, or Detroit.

Not just usa it happens everywhere in the world.

Edited July 2, 2016 by Sooo Upto Me

[Rimmer]

Off topic bickering and flaming posts removed

[mcfish]

All for a 1000 baht. Life is cheap in yabaaland.

People killed for less in the USA. (my country) Don't be so fast to condemn Thailand until you've been to Orlando, Chicago, or Detroit.

So life is cheap in Orlando,Chicago and Detroit too.

Cheapest in Brazil

[jhonnie]

This is happening all over the planet , not just Thailand, Drugs are not the problem; unfortunately people with problems are the problem.

[balo]

I notice that defenders of recreational drugs are quick to comment in threads like this. People using them are mentally unstable and are often involved in terrible crimes here in Thailand.

Instead you should be thinking about how we can stop the drug trade for good.

[onemorechang]

I notice that defenders of recreational drugs are quick to comment in threads like this. People using them are mentally unstable and are often involved in terrible crimes here in Thailand.

Instead you should be thinking about how we can stop the drug trade for good.

Nothing wrong with Turkish cigarettes.

Your just out dated and ill informed

[Rough Rider]

Life ill always be cheap in Thailand until the authorities stop baby sitting these psycho's and hand out proper sentences like the death penalty for murder. Many here talk about Europe and the nanny states and they are correct I admit but Thailand is far worse. Kill someone and the law is made to suit the individual. This has to be wrong. One crime one law one sentence. Without it the country will never really progress.

They need to execute these murderers in the old style by machinegun and do it in public. This will surly have an effect on a future murderer to think twice before committing a murder

[Rough Rider]

I notice that defenders of recreational drugs are quick to comment in threads like this. People using them are mentally unstable and are often involved in terrible crimes here in Thailand.

Instead you should be thinking about how we can stop the drug trade for good.

Make the soft drugs like marijuana and meth legal in Thailand. You will cut the price of it by 90% and corruption and the demand of it will sort itself out.

[falang khinok]

Life ill always be cheap in Thailand until the authorities stop baby sitting these psycho's and hand out proper sentences like the death penalty for murder. Many here talk about Europe and the nanny states and they are correct I admit but Thailand is far worse. Kill someone and the law is made to suit the individual. This has to be wrong. One crime one law one sentence. Without it the country will never really progress.[/quot

nanny state versus the real world .but what does yhe real world look and feel like yaba gangs .whores .and mafia but u are free at least untill someone has a go on u forget the law as there is only on paper welcome in thailand

[Maggusoil]

Doesn't particularly bother me that these bottom-feeding savages kill each other.

That's right. Not your species

[lvr181]

The health minister want to decriminalize Yabba, what will be his stance on crimes committed because

of the use of Yabba and all it's consequents I wonder?......

This is exactly why the minister wants to legalise it.

Murder,crime and corruption would reduce between half and 2 thirds.

It's been proven in a few countries already. You can be sure, in the future most countries will adopt the freedom of choice, while providing treatment centres and education.

The minister is a wise man and clearly understands the reality of life.

I think the Minister has already been "advised" to rethink his ideas.

Edited July 3, 2016 by lvr181

[shirtless]

Amphetamine was an over the counter drug used for weight loss, There was no Yaba problem in the 90s.

[gchurch259]

You forgot D.C., New Orleans. You get a little deeper in the thought process and you will see two common denominators.

All for a 1000 baht. Life is cheap in yabaaland.

People killed for less in the USA. (my country) Don't be so fast to condemn Thailand until you've been to Orlando, Chicago, or Detroit.

[gchurch259]

Many have touched on one or two main reasons, but it is not all the Governments Fault for the poor Education System. The first place to learn respect for others and yourself is at home from birth to at least 15/16 years. Having said that the other main thing is Self-Discipline which is missing now days World Wide, "Instant Gratification" is another !!

[Rimmer]

Off topic post removed, the topis is not about Orlando, Detroit, Chicago or OJ Simpson

[gemguy]

If they did legalize the recreational drugs you would see an improvement in many areas that are now considered problematic.

Thing is, they have to have a future plan and they have to contemplate the social ramifications evolving under a legal consumption environment and be prepared for the various ongoing social problems and a number of new social problems relevant to legal recreational drug consumption.

The most significant benefit would be all the drug users not being criminalized the way they are now while society would be far more accepting of a person who uses such recreational drugs...similar to the way that people the world over are more or less accepting of or at least tolerant of those that drink alcohol...which is well proven to be socially damaging in numerous ways.

Unfortunately all too many of the recreational drugs are highly addicting and quickly addicting also.

Opium for example: 10 times in a row and you are addicted.

Heroin for example: 5 to 10 times in a row and you are addicted depending on the purity of the Heroin.

Crack Cocaine: Same

Crystal Meth: Same

The consumption of Alcohol, on the other hand, involves far more consumption and much longer time involved than that to addict a person to alcohol...

Several other recreational street drugs are also highly addicting and the users are quickly addicted in a relatively short time and more or less turns the users into somewhat useless humans and far from functional and or productive humans...rather they are fixated on their supply of drugs and satisfying their need and craving for the drug.

Some needing it more than others and 2 or 3 or 4 to 5 times per day is necessary and when without it they are weird and difficult to deal with and belligerent and angry and not a pleasure to be around.......not at all.

That being the case and the truth of the matter one has to understand that whether legal or illegal many of the highly addictive street drugs result in the drug addict being a burden on others no matter if the drug is legal or illegal as the addictive aspects of the drug and the end result of addiction is the same.

That being the case then all the other people connected or interconnected to the drug users are effected negatively and have to suffer a number of burdensome and socially conflicting issues if you have say a brother or daughter or son or good friend who is a legal heroin addict or a legal Crystal meth addict...same as the many people who have to deal with a legal alcoholic and all that is entailed.

If you have ever been around drug addicts that are hopelessly addicted you will understand that legally addicted and Fxxked up on legal recreational drugs is no different than illegally addicted and illegally Fxxked on some recreational drug...rather the circumstances are different and the social environment has to accommodate the addict differently.

Cheers

Edited July 3, 2016 by gemguy

[Shadychris]

I notice that defenders of recreational drugs are quick to comment in threads like this. People using them are mentally unstable and are often involved in terrible crimes here in Thailand.

Instead you should be thinking about how we can stop the drug trade for good.

"I notice that defenders of recreational drugs are quick to comment in threads like this"

As are the ones like yourself with preconceived prejudices and attitudes, who's best attempt to formulate a reasoned argument is to make facile generalisations and statements such as 'people who use recreational drugs are mentally unstable'..

People have been thinking about how the drug trade can be 'stopped for good' for around 70 years or so now, and thus far all attempts have failed - miserably. Any rational thinking person would quickly come to the conclusion that another 70 years thought along those lines would be highly unlikely to produce a different outcome.

Where there is a demand there will always be someone prepared to supply it. Attempts to eradicate the source of some drugs simply result in geographic relocation of said source. Catching dealers and even big cartel players is only partially successful in limiting supply - always another Johnny come lately ready to step up to the role. Trying to stop demand by prosecuting users and either criminalising them or putting them in prison rarely solves anything either.

Unless we can come up with a way to re-program all human brains to have no desire to take any substance that will give them an altered state of consciousness, then there is always going to be a demand.

There is no silver bullet here. One cannot un-discover or un-invent something. There are however different ways of looking at the problem and other approaches to engaging with it, rather than simply going to war with it. For example the UK 'wholesale' marijuana market is estimated to be in excess of £1 billion a year. Were the government to take control of that, by licensing and supplying to that demand, there would be huge amounts of cash available for educational and rehabilitation programmes, not to mention funding for the treatment of health problems caused to those addicted to harder drugs.

That can then be extrapolated further. There are currently around 18,000 people serving time in UK prisons for drug dealing offences. Cost of imprisoning them £65k per case. Cost of keeping a person in prison, another £40k p\a. Assuming a slightly low average of 2 years time being served that's another £2.2 billion a year cost to the taxpayer. If that figure could be reduced by 50% by legalising and licensing the supply of class B drugs, then the saving would offset the cost associated with the incarceration of Class A drug traffickers.

Criminalising recreational drug users achieves little to nothing - in fact it can ultimately exacerbate the problem further. The only ones really benefiting from that approach are organised crime who are making huge profits from their illegal trade.

Taking the simplistic standpoint of 'all drugs are bad and users should be punished' or even the opposite extreme of 'all drugs should be legalised' is not helpful. We need to start thinking 'outside of the box' and finding a middle ground that engages with the situation rather than simply trying to fight it.

This is the approach now being taken by some of the more liberal, outward thinking countrys, and there is evidence to suggest that it is proving more effective at both controlling and reducing the problems.

Edited July 3, 2016 by Shadychris

[Johnniey]

Amphetamine was an over the counter drug used for weight loss, There was no Yaba problem in the 90s.

I can assure you it was a big problem. I worked part-time in a drug treatment centre. It was called Yaa Maa back then.

It was at least 15 years earlier that is was an over the counter drug.