Alcohol Advisory Help

[Couthy]

Hi All,

Right here's the griff : I work from home a lot and have developed what I believe to be a drink problem. I went through a couple of NHS questionaires on the subject and it certainly is the case.

So, I have cut down for a week, not easy, and today is the first day off the booze (feeling it already). Shaky hands, very anxious.

As I understand it, the second day onwards is when the serious problems can start to occur.

My consumption has become an eye opener.

Friday Ms C and I will pop down the hospital and speak to a Doc: Are government hospitals any use in this - any expectations of costs for medication?. (I avoid hospitals and doctors).

Are there any alcohol advisory groups that I can talk to in BKK . (Please don't suggest AA - I have my own reasons for that).

I was never a heavy drinker before and there is no history of heavy drinking in my family history.

Ms C is right behind me as are my partners but they can't be with me all the time -she's got to work and partners are scattered around the country.

Thanks in advance.

Couthy.

[helicoptor]

People deal with alcohol addiction in different ways, AA meetings, basically discussing with like-minded people on their experiences involving alcohol, both good and bad. This I tried but didnt work for me personally.

Some people will just quit and identify the need to change their social habits, going to the gym, or for a walk instead of the bar, for instance. The fact that you have at least recognized you have a problem is in itself a good start to recovery; No-one knows you more than YOU, you have the support of your partner i'm sure which is also a good start. Do whatever feels comfortable, try not to think too much about 'giving up', you have stopped drinking, already you feel better, live your life, think about your life and what positive things you can do to change aspects of it.

The physical cravings are short term and will pass, the psycological thought process is the one that takes longer to sort out.

I had a problem 10 years back that stemmed from personal problems/events, I went through a year of hel_l, then something 'clicked' in my head and I stopped for 8 years, presently I moderate my drinking, (weekends only, a few scoops then home) attempted moderation was not an option for me back then as I didnt have the willpower or mental stability at the time.

Whatever you decide on, good luck, keep us posted.

[Maigo6]

So, I have cut down for a week, not easy, and today is the first day off the booze (feeling it already). Shaky hands, very anxious.

As I understand it, the second day onwards is when the serious problems can start to occur.

My consumption has become an eye opener.

Friday Ms C and I will pop down the hospital and speak to a Doc: Are government hospitals any use in this - any expectations of costs for medication?. (I avoid hospitals and doctors).

Couthy, be careful with any medication the Doctors may give you to ease your anxiety.

If you get addicted to Benzodiazapines ( Valium, xanax etc ), you will be in for a very rough ride when you eventually try to stop taking them.

Getting off of Benzos is tough, they must be the the hardest drugs to come off of, it's so long lasting, can take a person several years of very slowly reducing the ammount taken, and during that withdrawal, all hel_l can break loose.

I wouldn't wish Benzo withdrawal on my worst enemy.

Good luck and be careful.

Edited November 16, 2006 by Maigo6

[Sheryl]

One thing you can do for yourself is buy a high potency vitamin and mineral compound (make sure it contains the RDA of all B Complex vitamins and magnesium). Take 2-3 daily for about a week (or until the shakiness recolves) then once daily. In addition, for 3 days only, take 100 mg thiamine (B1) -- never mind that there is already some in the vitamion/minerakl compound. This is one of the main things done in hospitals to avoid or minimize problems from alcohol withdrawal.

In addition, drink plenty of liquids (non-alcoholic, obviously) to stay well hydrated.

These simple measures will do a lot to deal with the physical side of the problem, but as you probably know, that's in many ways the easy part. For the psychological aspect of the dependency, most people need some support either from a support group of peers or professional counsellor. The former would be AA -- if your objection is religious you might want to at least chat with the folks here, you may find them easier to relate to and far more liberal minded etc than you might expect. I don't know if any other peer-group type programs other than AA are operational here, but maybe other posters can advise. Could also check the sub-forum on drinking too much. Lastly, this forum has a pinned notice listing western counsellors/therapits in Thailand, several of whiom have a lot of experience with alcohol addiction (they might also have some group therapy or support groups for drinkers)

Good luck

Edited November 16, 2006 by Sheryl

[Neeranam]

Couthy, be careful with any medication the Doctors may give you to ease your anxiety.

If you get addicted to Benzodiazapines ( Valium, xanax etc ), you will be in for a very rough ride when you eventually try to stop taking them.

Here here.

Even the best Thai doctors will offer benzos to people with a history of alcohol abuse - somethin doctors in my country never do.

The danger is that when you get tolerant on the ones they give you, they increase the dosage.

I had a drinking problem and ended up taking 200mg of valium a day PLUS the booze.

Coming off these things is the worst ever bar methadone. If you take any make sure it is for no longer than 2 weeks.

[sleepyjohn]

Unfortunately severe alcohol withdrawal is simply intolerable. In this case the treatment, a specialist short life tranquilliser called heminevrin, is not only acceptable, it is essential. It is reduced from max dose to zero over six days.

The sort of people that need this are in a state where they certainly can't remember the date or maybe the year or the prime minister. They are very confused and very very paranoid indeed. If you know the date and your telephone number you are not in that ballpark, so do try your best to take nothing.

Everyone is right about avoiding benzos.

Don't be isolated. Try to spend time in your withdrawal with friends. Be busy doing things that don't need too much thought. Tire your body if you can, working physically or swimming as far as possible perhaps.

You will need to find things to replace the booze. It will take time. In the end you will wake up and life may be much more satisfying.

Be tough you'll get there it will pass, and in your case you might already be going through the worst and all over in a day or two. Good Luck!

Edited November 16, 2006 by sleepyjohn

[Neeranam]

As I understand it, the second day onwards is when the serious problems can start to occur.

I found that after 2 days I was fine(physically) and could start eating - I came off alcohol many times. Again DON'T believe the Thai doctors, even at international hospitals- I could tell you some stories about them telling people how certain benzos were not addictive or only slightly addictive.

Buy a tin of glucolin(glucose) and put a tablespoon full of it in every drink you have.

Do you need a doctor?

[sabaijai]

I'm moving this to the 'I drink too much' subranch of this forum, as the OP may get additional input there.

[ding]

(Please don't suggest AA - I have my own reasons for that).

Okay, but when it gets worse your reasons may turn to vapor. It's what works for real alcoholics. If you're just a problem drinker a religion may work, or counselling, or a stern lecture from an authority figure, or watching Brady Bunch dvd's, etc.

Usually, though, most real alcoholics have a very good reason to NOT go to AA.

[sabaijai]

(Please don't suggest AA - I have my own reasons for that).

Okay, but when it gets worse your reasons may turn to vapor. It's what works for real alcoholics. If you're just a problem drinker a religion may work, or counselling, or a stern lecture from an authority figure, or watching Brady Bunch dvd's, etc.

Usually, though, most real alcoholics have a very good reason to NOT go to AA.

Correction: it works for about 5% of those with alcohol dependence disorder ('real alcoholics', if you will), according to AA's own records, a success rate about the same or lower than the success rate of those who quit on their own.

[Neeranam]

(Please don't suggest AA - I have my own reasons for that).

Okay, but when it gets worse your reasons may turn to vapor. It's what works for real alcoholics. If you're just a problem drinker a religion may work, or counselling, or a stern lecture from an authority figure, or watching Brady Bunch dvd's, etc.

Usually, though, most real alcoholics have a very good reason to NOT go to AA.

Correction: it works for about 5% of those with alcohol dependence disorder ('real alcoholics', if you will), according to AA's own records, a success rate about the same or lower than the success rate of those who quit on their own.

Correction; alcohol dependance disorder is not the 'real alcoholic'. Anyone can become dependant on alcohol if they take it for long enough.

Those who quit on their own will obviously have a 100% success??

To the OP - try to quit by yourself and if you can't then explore other options.

[Oleg_Rus]

Again DON'T believe the Thai doctors, even at international hospitals- I could tell you some stories about them telling people how certain benzos were not addictive or only slightly addictive.

Do you need a doctor?

100% complete truth! We lost french guy at 56 y.o. in coma. He was just a simple alc. untill he started visiting m/f/ from Sa***j hospital. They pumped him like pinata with all designer drugs. Didn't work, he collapsed, now in coma in france.

[Couthy]

Hi All,

Well, a bit of an update:

Firstly, my thanks for all your advice and encouragment.

By day three I was feeling awful - shudder, shake, etc.

By staying busy, washing the floor on hands and knees, cleaning everything in sight I managed to not buy any booze.

That evening went down to Ratchavithi hospital to see if they could give me something to take the edge off.

After the paperwork got done I doubt if I waited more than five minutes to see a Doctor.

His English was extremely good and his point of focus was why having not been a heavy drinker before I had become one of recent.

He offered some good (and practical) advice but said any long term drug treatment only creates it's own set of problems.

He did prescribe 10 tablets of Alprazolam X 0.25mg, 1 to be taken only if I begin to feel very stressed and want to drink. He stated he will not prescribe any more unless I have seen a specialist.

I've only taken two so far and they do seem to calm me down.

Yesterday and today no desire at all to drink although I have to walk past the local 'worthies' a few times a day and who are always getting stuck into a bottle or ten.

I think perhaps I am luckier than most as I do have a good support network here who seem to fully understand the situation and of course Ms C has been super - crivvens, if I had been her I would have legged it ages ago.

The Doc's point was behavioural change.

Total cost for about 45 mins with the Doc + drugs was 100Baht - yup, that's correct, 100Baht.

If it's of any interest to anyone they have an English speaking physchiatrist (spelling?) comes in two mornings a week.

The next hurdle I feel is the festive period: How exactly does a Scot stay sober on Hogmanay!!.

I'll approach that nearer the time.

Thanks folks,

Couthy.

[sabaijai]

Correction; alcohol dependance disorder is not the 'real alcoholic'. Anyone can become dependant on alcohol if they take it for long enough.

Still awaiting a scientific explanation/definition of 'real alcoholic'. If a person says he can't quit on his own, or if he's told he can't quit on his own, does that make him a 'real alcoholic'? If so then we'd have to also posit the 'real heroin addict' (can't quit heroin on his own), 'real meth addict', etc.

It appears to me that the 'real alcoholic' is like the 'real unicorn' or 'real alien abduction', verifiable only through personal testimony and thus untestable and empirically invalid.

Back to the OP, Couthy, good on you mate for making the change, what you've done thus far is really inspiring. You'll be a good test case for the forum here. If you manage to stay off the booze on your own, the 12-step camp will say you weren't a 'real alcoholic'. And if you fall off the wagon, they'll say you are. Come to think of it, you could see it as a system programmed to cheer failure. Watch out for the definitions, Couthy, and stay the course.

[robitusson]

It appears to me that the 'real alcoholic' is like the 'real unicorn' or 'real alien abduction', verifiable only through personal testimony and thus untestable and empirically invalid.

It's circular logic sj. If you can give up without a certain double-letter named recovery group, then you're not a "real alcoholic".

Edited November 25, 2006 by robitusson

[jumnien]

It appears to me that the 'real alcoholic' is like the 'real unicorn' or 'real alien abduction', verifiable only through personal testimony and thus untestable and empirically invalid.

It's circular logic sj. If you can give up without a certain double-letter named recovery group, then you're not a "real alcoholic".

I believe the AA book cleverly titled "Alcoholics Anonymous" says, "If you can stop or learn to drink like a gentleman, our hats are off to you." It also implies that AA doesn't go around diagnosing people as alcoholic or not. It does say that if one suffers from the hopeless state of alcoholism characterized by pitiful and incomprehensible demoralization that perhaps the group can be of help.

There is no blood test for alcoholism. Like diabetes, unless a patient admits to himself (not to others) that he has a problem, he is unlikely to change the behaviors that aggravate his diabetes. It really does not good to argue over the different definitions of diabetics and "real diabetics"; if the diet and lack of exercise persist, the diabetes is likely to get worse.

[jumnien]

(Please don't suggest AA - I have my own reasons for that).

Okay, but when it gets worse your reasons may turn to vapor. It's what works for real alcoholics. If you're just a problem drinker a religion may work, or counselling, or a stern lecture from an authority figure, or watching Brady Bunch dvd's, etc.

Usually, though, most real alcoholics have a very good reason to NOT go to AA.

Correction: it works for about 5% of those with alcohol dependence disorder ('real alcoholics', if you will), according to AA's own records, a success rate about the same or lower than the success rate of those who quit on their own.

AA has no records of who goes to its meetings. I tried to get sober in AA about seven times before it seemed to work. Therefore, seven AA groups in the Los Angeles area are clamoring "oh, that mdeland, never could stay sober" and one group in Marin County is saying "remember when mdeland got sober". That is a success rate of 1 in 8 or 12.5%. Or would you say that in my case AA was 100% effective, since it's been working for 11 years now. Or would you take the average of 12.5% and 100% and say it is 56.25%. These statistics you quote of 5% success rate are awfully suspect. Most people I see give it a real try over time stay sober. If people can get sober another way or moderate their drinking, if I wore a hat I'd take it off to them. Great!

Same at treatment centers. I saw the same people come back 3 or 6 or 19 times before they got it. Is treatment successful or unsuccessful, it's easy to make up a statistic depending on what your bias is.

[ding]

OP,

Don't sweat the definitions, people get lost in the details sometimes a little bit. It really doesn't matter, it just works for people who define themselves as alcoholic and use the tools AA gives.

It's pretty simple really, it gives you the tools and our history for how to stay sober when nothing else works.

I got a lot of hope from hearing for the first time;

-That I never had to take another drink again as long as I lived

-That no person, no place, and no thing could ever MAKE me take a drink again. Nothing. No <deleted> way.

-That people with worse stories than mine lived in sobriety as very decent people.

-That no matter what the monkey is that's on your back, you can shake it off by working the program.

So, it WILL work if you work the program. 100% up to you and only you.

Good luck with the Dr's help OP and my hat is sincerely off to you if you stop that way. Sometimes an alcoholic needs medical assistance to physically survive coming off the drugs/alcohol. I think it's best to get off them ASAP though. I've seen prescriptions take many people out the backdoor who were sober for years and decades.

[robitusson]

it's easy to make up a statistic depending on what your bias is.

Agreed. Precise figures are almost impossible to come up with.

But considering the size and economic power of the treatment industry, why are there such consistently low result rates from so many different sources? Surely high recovery rates could be come with using a favourable definition of sobriety?

[jumnien]

it's easy to make up a statistic depending on what your bias is.

Agreed. Precise figures are almost impossible to come up with.

But considering the size and economic power of the treatment industry, why are there such consistently low result rates from so many different sources? Surely high recovery rates could be come with using a favourable definition of sobriety?

The success rates in recovery, whether treatment or AA, are low precisely because of idiots like myself who relapse over and over again on their road to recovery or death. In my case, I ruined the success rates of five 21-day methadone detox programs, and an outpatient program before I helped the success rate of an inpatient program in N. Calif.