Yingluck and Boonsong are liable for 300 billion baht in loss from rice scheme

[tuanku]

Presumably Yingluk is free to sue the next tier down for the losses they incurred, and they to sue the next tier down, etc. etc. Where did this money end up? in whose hands? The millers? warehouse owners? wholesalers? No-one seems to be saying that the Shins benefited financially directly from the scheme, although if it got them elected they may have benefited in other ways. If all the actions taken by Governments over the last 20 years or so were similarly investigated and action taken, how many cases would that be? How many multi million Baht procurements and contracts have been transparently clean and above board in that time? Practically none.

[mike324]

4 hours ago, MZurf said:

" YL was warned by the world bank and several other organisations that this would not work."

The fact that the World Bank and other organizations said that this would not work is no ground for making YL fiscally responsible.

"It was nothing more than a vote buying scheme...."

Common the world over, even in thoroughly democratic countries. I'm not saying that this was a well thought out scheme - it wasn't. It was a vote buying scheme of epic proportions, but when you start charging politicians for this then (as has been pointed out before) you're on a slippery slope. Where, e.g., do you draw the line? Losses of 1 billion Bath, 10 billion, 100 billion? The sum which they want YL to pay changes constantly (they started with 600+ billion and are now down to 286 billion) so how can they even charge her if they don't yet know how much they will claim her for?

 

"...to get in power and abuse that power to get even more wealthy and get big brother back."

Who got more wealthy, YL? Has she been convicted of corruption?

Well the problem in Thailand is that politicians already think they are above the law, hence all the mess. If you actually hold politicians to the massive misconducts, then perhaps the society would be a little better, and we won't have such massive lost and repeat of what happened under Thaksins administration. Its common for populist policies to rack up debt, but not on this scale.

If you read carefully, 500-600 billion is the total amount of loss. They sold around 190 billion worth of rice (according to another article on BP), therefore the net amount is around 286 billion for Yingluck.

[MZurf]

3 minutes ago, mike324 said:

Well the problem in Thailand is that politicians already think they are above the law, hence all the mess. If you actually hold politicians to the massive misconducts, then perhaps the society would be a little better, and we won't have such massive lost and repeat of what happened under Thaksins administration. Its common for populist policies to rack up debt, but not on this scale.

If you read carefully, 500-600 billion is the total amount of loss. They sold around 190 billion worth of rice (according to another article on BP), therefore the net amount is around 286 billion for Yingluck.

"Well the problem in Thailand is that politicians already think they are above the law, hence all the mess."

The problem in Thailand is that all connected people (think they) are above the law, and this includes politicians, military, police, rich people etc. That's what causes Thailand's mess.

[mike324]

1 minute ago, MZurf said:

"Well the problem in Thailand is that politicians already think they are above the law, hence all the mess."

The problem in Thailand is that all connected people (think they) are above the law, and this includes politicians, military, police, rich people etc. That's what causes Thailand's mess.

Agree, so you don't think anybody should be held accountable for anything? The problem is that no laws are being enforced, mainly by the police to begin with.

[Artisi]

8 hours ago, MaxLee said:

When will she pay???

Either lend lease or on the never-never. 

[mike324]

33 minutes ago, MZurf said:

Yes, I'm sure they'll "get" YL in the end, irrespective of what she's done. Too bad it's only a political witch hunt and not a real effort against corruption.
Because unless one is seriously naive something is fishy about all the generals (military and police) with vast fortunes and low salaries. Or is it a requirement in Thailand that one has to be a multi millionaire to reach flag rank??

I'm guessing most folks here don't run businesses in Thailand. But I can tell you that there is a real effort against corruption. Perhaps you have missed all the high profile arrest in the past years? A real effort to crack down on illegal workers, most notably business who are using unregistered workers. Just last week, soldiers had a crack down in the area where my factory is.

Customs officials are demanding less bribes and businesses to pay the actual taxes. The list goes on. Its still a long way to go, and you will still see bribery, but at least its a good change in terms of law enforcement compare to the last decade.

[Baerboxer]

48 minutes ago, MZurf said:

"Well her big brother, you know the one, did proudly boast to Forbes Magazine that the Shin family staggering wealth grew by some 450% during the years of the PTP regime."

He did? I'm not saying he didn't but do you have the link?

"So I guess that family for one got more wealthy. Didn't say how they split it between family members but would be surprised if he didn't give his adoring little sister something."

Assumptions.

"Doesn't seem to have commented about their fortune increases under the current government."

Don't understand.

"No, Yingluck hasn't been convicted of corruption. Her brother, sisters, niece and various assorted relatives and in-laws have, but not sweet innocent Yingluck. So far. She did have a lucky escape when good old Tarit invented his own definition of perjury, but hey ho, she's still young."

Yes, I'm sure they'll "get" YL in the end, irrespective of what she's done. Too bad it's only a political witch hunt and not a real effort against corruption.
Because unless one is seriously naive something is fishy about all the generals (military and police) with vast fortunes and low salaries. Or is it a requirement in Thailand that one has to be a multi millionaire to reach flag rank??

Do you own research sport. Google isn't difficult ti use and I ain't anybodies lackey. Clue - try Forbes articles on world's richest people and Thaksin Shinawatra.

Do you seriously think Yingluck was never given or accepted her share of the family pot? Are you really that naive? For someone who doesn't 'support" the Shins you seem to want to defend Yingluck somewhat.

No - Yingluck, like Thaksin and her other relatives can only be found guilty of something she's done. If she didn't do it they couldn't get her for it. As always we have selective enforcement of the law and targeting. Nothing new in that. Thaksin and his various stooges indulged when they had the chance. 

[Eric Loh]

30 minutes ago, mike324 said:

I believe its closer to 1.2 Trillion. Under the DEMs, the stimulus package included infrastructure spending and spending in all different sectors. If you want to actually tally up PTP's spending it will be well over the DEMs Thai Kem Kaeng.

There were many corruption under the DEMS stimulus package, notably the spending under Education. But it is nothing close to PTP's Rice Scheme.

Yes there were many corruptions under the Dems populist package, notably the Education spending. And yes it is bigger than the rice scheme at 397 B Baht and certainly not close. 

[ramrod711]

6 hours ago, MZurf said:

" YL was warned by the world bank and several other organisations that this would not work."

The fact that the World Bank and other organizations said that this would not work is no ground for making YL fiscally responsible.

"It was nothing more than a vote buying scheme...."

Common the world over, even in thoroughly democratic countries. I'm not saying that this was a well thought out scheme - it wasn't. It was a vote buying scheme of epic proportions, but when you start charging politicians for this then (as has been pointed out before) you're on a slippery slope. Where, e.g., do you draw the line? Losses of 1 billion Bath, 10 billion, 100 billion? The sum which they want YL to pay changes constantly (they started with 600+ billion and are now down to 286 billion) so how can they even charge her if they don't yet know how much they will claim her for?

 

"...to get in power and abuse that power to get even more wealthy and get big brother back."

Who got more wealthy, YL? Has she been convicted of corruption?

I know that a politician making a false promise is not news, but PTP stated that the rice scheme would be self funding, which was obviously a lie.

[candide]

13 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

Do you own research sport. Google isn't difficult ti use and I ain't anybodies lackey. Clue - try Forbes articles on world's richest people and Thaksin Shinawatra.

Do you seriously think Yingluck was never given or accepted her share of the family pot? Are you really that naive? For someone who doesn't 'support" the Shins you seem to want to defend Yingluck somewhat.

No - Yingluck, like Thaksin and her other relatives can only be found guilty of something she's done. If she didn't do it they couldn't get her for it. As always we have selective enforcement of the law and targeting. Nothing new in that. Thaksin and his various stooges indulged when they had the chance. 

As usual you repeat over and over the same distorted information about this article from Forbes in order to support your arguments (I already objected to it in a previous thread so you perfectly know it's distorted). The precise information is that the wealth of the Shinawatra family increased 4.25 times between 2011 and 2014 (which is very near to your 450%). However, this is mainly due the recovering of frozen assets.

“The magazine also put Thaksin Shinawatra and family on the list, with net worth of US$1.6 billion. It said that "ousted in a 2006 coup, Thaksin managed to recover close to US$1 billion of his US$2.3 billion in frozen assets".

http://news.asiaone.com/news/asia/11-thais-make-forbes-billionaires-list-0

From a previous post, I can also anticipate your answer, which was  that it was a scam that her sister's governement gave him back part of the money. It was a supreme court decision, not a government decision. You know, the same judicial system that convicted him, seized $ 1.3 billion, and ousted his sister....

[MZurf]

40 minutes ago, mike324 said:

I'm guessing most folks here don't run businesses in Thailand. But I can tell you that there is a real effort against corruption. Perhaps you have missed all the high profile arrest in the past years? A real effort to crack down on illegal workers, most notably business who are using unregistered workers. Just last week, soldiers had a crack down in the area where my factory is.

Customs officials are demanding less bribes and businesses to pay the actual taxes. The list goes on. Its still a long way to go, and you will still see bribery, but at least its a good change in terms of law enforcement compare to the last decade.

"Perhaps you have missed all the high profile arrest in the past years? "

Apparently I have. Maybe you care to list them?

[MZurf]

37 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

Do you own research sport. Google isn't difficult ti use and I ain't anybodies lackey. Clue - try Forbes articles on world's richest people and Thaksin Shinawatra.

Do you seriously think Yingluck was never given or accepted her share of the family pot? Are you really that naive? For someone who doesn't 'support" the Shins you seem to want to defend Yingluck somewhat.

No - Yingluck, like Thaksin and her other relatives can only be found guilty of something she's done. If she didn't do it they couldn't get her for it. As always we have selective enforcement of the law and targeting. Nothing new in that. Thaksin and his various stooges indulged when they had the chance. 

"Do you own research sport. Google isn't difficult ti use and I ain't anybodies lackey."

You make a statement and when I ask for a link you say you're not a lackey???

"Do you seriously think Yingluck was never given or accepted her share of the family pot? Are you really that naive?"

Actually, my friends consider me a cynic. I have no idea what YL accepted or not accepted. That's why I don't make statements about it. Has she accepted "her share of the family pot"? Wouldn't surprise me at all.

"For someone who doesn't 'support" the Shins you seem to want to defend Yingluck somewhat." 

I have, and will continue to defend her right not to be overthrown in a coup. I will also defend her when discussing how the junta has put her on trial for the rice scheme.

"Thaksin and his various stooges indulged when they had the chance."

To a certain and limited extent. The military and the old elite were, are and will for the foreseeable future be untouchable. Hence my opinion that all the junta's claims of wanting to "fix" Thailand is only so much <deleted>.

Edited August 2, 2016 by MZurf

[Baerboxer]

8 minutes ago, candide said:

As usual you repeat over and over the same distorted information about this article from Forbes in order to support your arguments (I already objected to it in a previous thread so you perfectly know it's distorted). The precise information is that the wealth of the Shinawatra family increased 4.25 times between 2011 and 2014 (which is very near to your 450%). However, this is mainly due the recovering of frozen assets.

“The magazine also put Thaksin Shinawatra and family on the list, with net worth of US$1.6 billion. It said that "ousted in a 2006 coup, Thaksin managed to recover close to US$1 billion of his US$2.3 billion in frozen assets".

 

http://news.asiaone.com/news/asia/11-thais-make-forbes-billionaires-list-0

From a previous post, I can also anticipate your answer, which was  that it was a scam that her sister's governement gave him back part of the money. It was a supreme court decision, not a government decision. You know, the same judicial system that convicted him, seized $ 1.3 billion, and ousted his sister....

 

 

Don't you find it remotely strange that Thaksin chose to brag about that? Or that the courts, not for the first time, ruled in favor of the Shins whilst they were in power? Remember how he got off the "honest mistake" on his false asset declaration? Maybe you should try and research the actual quotes he gave at the time of the Forbes list. 

Or do you think he's just and honest Joe, who made all his and his family wealth through honest hardwork and enterprise? After all, he said that he's never ever done anything wrong, never ever. And that was on CNN. He would lie on TV now would he? Lol!

[Baerboxer]

2 minutes ago, MZurf said:

"Do you own research sport. Google isn't difficult ti use and I ain't anybodies lackey."

You make a statement and when I ask for a link you say you're not a lackey???

"Do you seriously think Yingluck was never given or accepted her share of the family pot? Are you really that naive?"

Actually, my friends consider me a cynic. I have no idea what YL accepted or not accepted. That's why I don't make statements about it. Has she accepted "her share of the family pot"? Wouldn't surprise me at all.

"For someone who doesn't 'support" the Shins you seem to want to defend Yingluck somewhat." 

I have, and will continue to defend her right not to be overthrown in a coup. I will also defend her when discussing how the junta has put her on trial for the rice scheme.

"Thaksin and his various stooges indulged when they had the chance."

To a certain and limited extent. The military and the old elite were, are and will for the foreseeable future be untouchable. Hence my opinion that all the junta's claims of wanting to "fix" Thailand is only so much <deleted>.

Yingluck wasn't overthrown by a coup. That's another Shin PR lie. Surprised that as a cynic you believe their PR. She dissolved Parliament after stating she'd never do such a thing, and was removed by a court for an abuse of power and nepotism before any coup. I won't provide a link but those events are easily researched. Just like her brother resigned the caretaker PM's job, then took it back on no authority but his own before being removed after trying to hold on to power. But hey, being removed in a coup sounds so much better.

Do you think someone who appears to have acted with gross negligence should be immune from trial then?

[candide]

15 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

Don't you find it remotely strange that Thaksin chose to brag about that? Or that the courts, not for the first time, ruled in favor of the Shins whilst they were in power? Remember how he got off the "honest mistake" on his false asset declaration? Maybe you should try and research the actual quotes he gave at the time of the Forbes list. 

Or do you think he's just and honest Joe, who made all his and his family wealth through honest hardwork and enterprise? After all, he said that he's never ever done anything wrong, never ever. And that was on CNN. He would lie on TV now would he? Lol!

The case you cite dates from 2001. Do you have any example of the higher judicial levels of the judicial system favouring the Shins during YL governement? You know YL who was forbidden to maintain martial law during protests, who was ousted, etc.... I'd like to see that.

And why is it you always ask others to do research on the Internet (which I did), and never care to provide any link supporting your allegations.

Edited August 2, 2016 by candide

[OMGImInPattaya]

It seems pointless to criminalize government policy decisions...a recipe for governmental inaction in any administration it seems to me. If there was corruption and personal proven gain to specific members of the government I could see prosecutions (in functioning democratic societies) but for government policies rubber-stamped and sealed by an elected parliament and cabinet seems pointless.

[George FmplesdaCosteedback]

This just goes to show how much money was involved in this Shinawatra scam: about US$8.4 billion is her share alone...

[metisdead]

Off topic posts and replies have been removed.

[Smarter Than You]

19 hours ago, billd766 said:

You could say exactly the same about most of the governments over the last 20 or 30 years but it still wouldn't make it right for any of them.

Thinking about nepotism, why would anybody put a person with zero political experience into the position of PM? The same applies when any member of a political family does the same thing such as making your brother in law the PM also, though to be fair, he was a politician when he was selected from the family short list.

Any examples of military nepotism you could add to strengthen your argument here?

For example, you could let us know just how much more than "zero political experience" Herr Prayuth had before becoming PM and just how qualified and deserving Herr Prayuths little brother is for his current high ranking position.

 

[mike324]

18 hours ago, MZurf said:

"Perhaps you have missed all the high profile arrest in the past years? "

Apparently I have. Maybe you care to list them?

 

The most famous one was Central Investigation Bureau chief Pol Lt-General Pongpat Chayaphan  , he is now in the jail. He is really in jail because my friend is also in the Bangkok Remand Prison, but different section has seen him before. A couple of his other associates and aides has been sentenced as well.

 

The ones listed below are either on bail or in jail - I did not follow up, but if you do a quick search these are high profile figures in the police / political space.

Pol Lt Col Banyin - theft / murder

Pol Lt Col Chamnarn - Selling drugs

Maj Gen Athiwat Soonpan - Running pyramid scheme

Phuket Mayor aides/relatives were arrested - corruption, drug, illegal weapons, etc

There is a handful of high ranking army generals and police who was involved with the Les Majeste case. I believe two have already died in prison.

 

In recent news, Prasert Sukkheeoperator of Bangkok most well known massage parlor Nataree has an arrest warrant out for him. He is also known as the Godfather of Ratchada - the strip of road where most big massage parlours are located. He was pretty much untouchable until the army came along... if you don't know, all these massage parlors have army/police shareholders

 

There re more, but these are just a couple I can think of from the top of my head

[mike324]

19 hours ago, Eric Loh said:

Yes there were many corruptions under the Dems populist package, notably the Education spending. And yes it is bigger than the rice scheme at 397 B Baht and certainly not close. 

 

I love how you always distort the facts...care to share a link of 397 billion on the education spending under the DEMS? and how is 397 billion greater than the Rice Scheme that is costing the country 500-600 billion? Thread after thread, I have debunk all your lies Eric!

 

I'm guessing you just got the 397 billion as a whole figure. But failed to analyze what is under the 397 billion. Here is a source from world bank breaking down what its spend on. They quote the figure as 350 billion, and education is 14.3 % of 350 billion. Search "Figure 55" for the chart or page 26.

http://siteresources.worldbank.org/INTTHAILAND/Resources/TEMfinalENG.pdf

 

Edited August 3, 2016 by mike324

[MZurf]

11 minutes ago, mike324 said:

 

The most famous one was Central Investigation Bureau chief Pol Lt-General Pongpat Chayaphan  , he is now in the jail. He is really in jail because my friend is also in the Bangkok Remand Prison, but different section has seen him before. A couple of his other associates and aides has been sentenced as well.

 

The ones listed below are either on bail or in jail - I did not follow up, but if you do a quick search these are high profile figures in the police / political space.

Pol Lt Col Banyin - theft / murder

Pol Lt Col Chamnarn - Selling drugs

Maj Gen Athiwat Soonpan - Running pyramid scheme

Phuket Mayor aides/relatives were arrested - corruption, drug, illegal weapons, etc

There is a handful of high ranking army generals and police who was involved with the Les Majeste case. I believe two have already died in prison.

 

In recent news, Prasert Sukkheeoperator of Bangkok most well known massage parlor Nataree has an arrest warrant out for him. He is also known as the Godfather of Ratchada - the strip of road where most big massage parlours are located. He was pretty much untouchable until the army came along... if you don't know, all these massage parlors have army/police shareholders

 

There re more, but these are just a couple I can think of from the top of my head

"The most famous one was Central Investigation Bureau chief Pol Lt-General Pongpat Chayaphan..."

 

If you don't know why he's in jail (has nothing to do with corruption) then you really should not write about politics in Thailand! Don't ask me why because it's a forbidden subject, but Google and a VPN should get you the answers.

 

"The ones listed below are either on bail or in jail - I did not follow up, but if you do a quick search these are high profile figures in the police / political space.
Pol Lt Col Banyin - theft / murder
Pol Lt Col Chamnarn - Selling drugs
Maj Gen Athiwat Soonpan - Running pyramid scheme
Phuket Mayor aides/relatives were arrested - corruption, drug, illegal weapons, etc
There is a handful of high ranking army generals and police who was involved with the Les Majeste case. I believe two have already died in prison.

In recent news, Prasert Sukkheeoperator of Bangkok most well known massage parlor Nataree has an arrest warrant out for him. He is also known as the Godfather of Ratchada - the strip of road where most big massage parlours are located. He was pretty much untouchable until the army came along... if you don't know, all these massage parlors have army/police shareholders

There re more, but these are just a couple I can think of from the top of my head"

 

Some of what you write here is untrue ( there were no generals jailed for Les Majeste) but I'm not going into the details.

Suffice it to say that if this lists impresses you (after 2+ years with junta rule) then you're VERY easily impressed 

[billd766]

3 hours ago, Smarter Than You said:

Any examples of military nepotism you could add to strengthen your argument here?

For example, you could let us know just how much more than "zero political experience" Herr Prayuth had before becoming PM and just how qualified and deserving Herr Prayuths little brother is for his current high ranking position.

 

 

How about Thaksin Shinawatra promoting his cousin in the Army. Is that OK for you about the army?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaiyasit_Shinawatra

 

BTW your response is "off topic" but about par for the course in trying to divert the post as usual.

[mike324]

8 minutes ago, MZurf said:

"The most famous one was Central Investigation Bureau chief Pol Lt-General Pongpat Chayaphan..."

 

If you don't know why he's in jail (has nothing to do with corruption) then you really should not write about politics in Thailand! Don't ask me why because it's a forbidden subject, but Google and a VPN should get you the answers.

 

"The ones listed below are either on bail or in jail - I did not follow up, but if you do a quick search these are high profile figures in the police / political space.
Pol Lt Col Banyin - theft / murder
Pol Lt Col Chamnarn - Selling drugs
Maj Gen Athiwat Soonpan - Running pyramid scheme
Phuket Mayor aides/relatives were arrested - corruption, drug, illegal weapons, etc
There is a handful of high ranking army generals and police who was involved with the Les Majeste case. I believe two have already died in prison.

In recent news, Prasert Sukkheeoperator of Bangkok most well known massage parlor Nataree has an arrest warrant out for him. He is also known as the Godfather of Ratchada - the strip of road where most big massage parlours are located. He was pretty much untouchable until the army came along... if you don't know, all these massage parlors have army/police shareholders

There re more, but these are just a couple I can think of from the top of my head"

 

Some of what you write here is untrue ( there were no generals jailed for Les Majeste) but I'm not going into the details.

Suffice it to say that if this lists impresses you (after 2+ years with junta rule) then you're VERY easily impressed 

 

I've been here for over 30 years....and in the past 2 years this is the most police and army generals being arrested for corruption. Not to mention law enforcements as well. So yes I'm more impress with so many arrests in the past two years, compare to the ones under democracy.

 

If you don't think CIB chief was arrested for corruption, I wonder why he was in jail in the first place? You can say all that is reported in the news. Its linked to Les Majeste cases too because he was the uncle of Thanpuying Srirasami, but the main issue is still corruption - notably bribes and oil smuggling networks.

 

Gen. Suchart Prommai has an arrest warrant out on Les Majeste...but he fled the country

Major General Manat Kongpan on human trafficking - case still pending

 

Perhaps you need to read up some more...