British Jews seek German citizenship on Brexit fears

[Jingthing]

3 hours ago, Shawn0000 said:

 

You first said that they were basing their acceptance on ethnicity, they are not, they are basing it on a proven ancestry, that is all that really matters.  There are some Jews that seem to think that Jewish is an ethnicity just because some Jews do have a unique ethnicity, that is what I am on about, their ethnicity has nothing to do with the religion, it is merely a coincidence, and I find that kind of exclusivity that is present in some Jews to be an old fashioned way of thinking.

Ethnicity has a lot to do with the identity of the Jewish people. That's the difference between a religion and an ETHNORELIGIOUS group. Jews are the latter. Do all Jews fit within what most people would recognize as a Jewish ethnicity? No, of course not. In fact, over time you're right in the diaspora the ethnic identity of the Jewish people will become less of a thing. Go to a U.S. reform temple and you'll see a rainbow of ethnicities. I find the word exclusivity kind of negative code word. Jews do not try to convert people like some other religions and their global numbers are TINY compared to Muslims, Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, etc. However if you personally would like to become a Jew,  you may do so, whatever your ethnic background. It will entail a lot of study and work. Maybe that's too exclusive, but you know considering the history of the Jewish people, with constant waves of being subject to persecution, misunderstanding, discrimination, and even genocide it should not surprise you that people aren't lining up around the block to become a Jew. Even Israel which yes does offer a rather easy path to citizenship to diaspora Jews is not all that attractive to the majority of diaspora Jews for immigration. It's often a hard sell. 

Edited August 18, 2016 by Jingthing

[Shawn0000]

3 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Ethnicity has a lot to do with the identity of the Jewish people. That's the difference between a religion and an ETHNORELIGIOUS group. Jews are the latter. Do all Jews fit within what most people would recognize as a Jewish ethnicity? No, of course not. In fact, over time you're right in the diaspora the ethnic identity of the Jewish people will become less of a thing. Go to a U.S. reform temple and you'll see a rainbow of ethnicities. I find the word exclusivity kind of negative code word. Jews do not try to convert people like other religions and their global numbers are TINY compared to Muslims, Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, etc. However if you personally would like to become a Jew,  you may do so, whatever your ethnic background. It will entail a lot of study and work. Maybe that's too exclusive, but you know considering the history of the Jewish people, with constant waves of being subject to persecution, misunderstanding, discrimination, and even genocide it should not surprise you that people aren't lining up around the block to become a Jew. Even Israel which yes does offer a rather easy path to citizenship to diaspora Jews is not all that attractive to the majority of diaspora Jews for immigration. It's often a hard sell. 

 

No, Jews are not an ethnoreligious group, that was kind of my whole point, the religion contains people of ethnoreligious groups, there is not one and so Jews should never be referred to as being one, that is where the exclusivity issue begins, as quite simply it excludes people from their own group.

[Jingthing]

We'll have to agree to disagree.

I've noticed that one of the propaganda talking points of the obsessive Israeli demonization agenda is that Jewish is only a religion and has nothing to do with Jewish ethnic identity. This is important to them because it supports the argument that the Jews as a PEOPLE don't even exist. Nasty stuff.

Well, in my opinion the vast majority of the Jewish people do NOT agree with that. The right of return law of Israel does not agree with that either and as Israel now includes the majority of Jews on the planet, that's important. The right of return law applies to people with a Jewish mother, and as mentioned before, also converts.

That does not dictate that Jewish mother was actually practicing the Jewish RELIGION. Either way. It only considers her to no longer be a Jew if she actively takes up another religion.

OK, you're welcome to think that's all old fashioned but you're not welcome to tell Jews they don't have an ethnic identity. That's up to Jews. 

 

To add, this issue I assume is also relevant to the German policy offer to Jews with ties to Germany on the past. I seriously doubt there is any kind of religious PRACTICE test in this offer. There certainly wasn't any religious practice requirement to be considered a Jewish person during the darkness of the Shoah. 

Edited August 18, 2016 by Jingthing

[Shawn0000]

5 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

We'll have to agree to disagree.

I've noticed that one of the propaganda talking points of the obsessive Israeli demonization agenda is that Jewish is only a religion and has nothing to do with Jewish ethnic identity. This is important to them because it supports the argument that the Jews as a PEOPLE don't even exist. Nasty stuff.

Well, in my opinion the vast majority of the Jewish people do NOT agree with that. The right of return law of Israel does not agree with that either and as Israel now includes the majority of Jews on the planet, that's important. The right of return law applies to people with a Jewish mother.

That does not dictate that Jewish mother was actually practicing the Jewish RELIGION. Either way. It only considers her to no longer be a Jew if she actively takes up another religion.

OK, you're welcome to think that's all old fashioned but you're not welcome to tell Jews they don't have an ethnic identity. That's up to Jews. 

 

To add, this issue I assume is also relevant to the German policy offer to Jews with ties to Germany on the past. I seriously doubt there is any kind of religious PRACTICE test in this offer. There certainly wasn't any religious practice requirement to be considered a Jewish person during the darkness of the Shoah. 

 

I am not saying that Jews do not have ethnic identities, I am only saying that there is not one ethnicity and so it is morally wrong to refer to 'the' Jewish ethnicity, I understand that this is not the criteria for acceptance in Israel, you already said, and yes that is important as it is inclusive and in reference to what I originally said, it is modern.  What is old fashioned is continuing the notion that there is a Jewish ethnicity when there is actually a Ashkenenazi, Sephardi and several other ethnicities, some of which are not ethnoreligious groups, it is old fashioned in that it is not inclusive, it gives the wrong impression to these people and people outside of the religion, the impression that perhaps they are not proper Jews.

[Grouse]

All this Jewish history stuff is fascinating! I can't get enough of it!

 

However, it's beside the point.

 

Fact is, the spike in post Brexit xenophobia and racism including antisemitism is resulting in a climate of fear.

 

As I have said previously, I find this shameful.

 

Even with my anti muslim stance, I would not want people to feel threatened. I would however like life more uncomfortable for those who will not integrate.

 

I am not anti Jewish but I do wish some of them would ditch the ringlets, funny hats and the rest....

[Shawn0000]

14 minutes ago, Grouse said:

All this Jewish history stuff is fascinating! I can't get enough of it!

 

However, it's beside the point.

 

Fact is, the spike in post Brexit xenophobia and racism including antisemitism is resulting in a climate of fear.

 

As I have said previously, I find this shameful.

 

Even with my anti muslim stance, I would not want people to feel threatened. I would however like life more uncomfortable for those who will not integrate.

 

I am not anti Jewish but I do wish some of them would ditch the ringlets, funny hats and the rest....

 

History? What, where?

 

kind of ironic that you express disappointment in the results of xenophobia yet also express your fear of a hat and hairstyle.

[Morakot]

22 hours ago, Baerboxer said:

It would have Ulster on and no funny writing

 

Talking about funny; if you'd like to get a whiff about what the province is really like nowadays -- almost two decades after the Good Friday Agreement or Belfast Agreement (Irish: Comhaontú Bhéal Feirste or Comhaontú Aoine an Chéasta; Ulster-Scots: Bilfawst Greeance or Guid Friday Greeance)  -- check out this wee programme:

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0229mns

[Morakot]

16 hours ago, Naam said:

 

being a German who is familiar with the topic i can only say keep on dreaming, but please no fairy tales.

 

Yep, the man's story sounds like baloney... unless he of course was born with five different nationalities (and this "predicament" wasn't his own doing) than he can "keep" them, at less as far as German law is concerned.

[Galactus]

Germany is reviewing its policy of dual citizenship. They want to cancel it for various logical reasons.

If jews in UK wants to go back Germany, why they waited this long for 70 years?

I believe this is for pure economic reasons, nothign else. Jews have tendency to follow money and Germany is strongest economy in Europe.

as you know the idiom 'it is first rats abandoning a sinking ship':)

 

Jews need to go to middle eastern Israel as they claim it is their oldest ancestral land, no?!  But they dont of course. Hope Germany does not accept them.

Edited August 18, 2016 by Galactus

[Jingthing]

3 hours ago, Shawn0000 said:

 

I am not saying that Jews do not have ethnic identities, I am only saying that there is not one ethnicity and so it is morally wrong to refer to 'the' Jewish ethnicity, I understand that this is not the criteria for acceptance in Israel, you already said, and yes that is important as it is inclusive and in reference to what I originally said, it is modern.  What is old fashioned is continuing the notion that there is a Jewish ethnicity when there is actually a Ashkenenazi, Sephardi and several other ethnicities, some of which are not ethnoreligious groups, it is old fashioned in that it is not inclusive, it gives the wrong impression to these people and people outside of the religion, the impression that perhaps they are not proper Jews.

Dude, I already detailed the multiple Jewish ethnicities that comprise the vast majority of the Jewish PEOPLE. I  never intended to telegraph the message that there is only ONE 

Jewish ethnic identity. Don't argue with me about that, try someone else. Of course there are multiple ones but the ethnic part of the identity of the Jewish people still does exist and still is something meaningful to the majority of the Jewish people (in my opinion) and likely will continue to be. Though, as I said, there is change happening particularly in the U.S. as far as much greater diversity within Jewish people. 

 

Looking to the future, and some places even now, and you go to temple and the majority of Jews have ethnicities that are not typical majority Jewish ones ... African Americans, South Asians, caucasion European Americans, Thais, Japanese, etc. yes obviously over time the ethnic identity thing will tend to at least start to fade away. But not yet.

 

If you want to go there, to genetics, yes there are strong genetic ties between the different majority Jewish ethnicities, and also Palestinian Arabs and also Italians, and some other ethnicities. That still doesn't make an Italian Catholic a Jew any more than it makes a Palestinian Muslim or Christian Arab a Jew. 

 

If you're talking about non-typical Jews, ethnically speaking, feeling not fully accepted as Jews ... I would agree that is very wrong and that should be addressed. That isn't about old fashioned or new fashioned. 

 

This is an issue (Jewish on Jewish discrimination) in Israel as well. All nations have such issues and conflicts between different groups. 

Edited August 18, 2016 by Jingthing

[Morakot]

18 minutes ago, Galactus said:

Germany is reviewing its policy of dual citizenship. They want to cancel it for various logical reasons.

If jews in UK wants to go back Germany, why they waited this long for 70 years?

I believe this is for pure economic reasons, nothign else. Jews have tendency to follow money and Germany is strongest economy in Europe.

 

 

What a nonsense. Are you getting paid for writing these half-baked assumptions?

 

The OP is a story about the descendants of those people who lost German citizenship for racial or political reasons during the third Reich. Germany has been reviewing policies relating to nationality  and  (re-)naturalisation every few years for the last five decades.

Edited August 18, 2016 by Morakot

[Galactus]

3 minutes ago, Morakot said:

 

What a nonsense. Are you getting paid for writing these half-baked assumptions?

 

The OP is a story about the descendants of those people who lost German citizenship for racial or political reasons during the third Reich. Germany has been reviewing policies relating to nationality  and  (re-naturalisation) every few years for the last five decades.

 

so wonder why those descendants waited for the last 50 years to claim their citizenship? Is this a coincidence that they are leaving just after Brexit and just after UK economy having troubles?

there are no assumptions but simple realities. this is so clear that jews are leaving bc their businesses are suffering or will suffer and Germany is a safer harbor now in that regard.

 

if they want to claim something, i believe they need to claim their Israeli citizenship where it is their oldest ancestral land. Do they go there? no.

[Morakot]

17 minutes ago, Galactus said:

 

so wonder why those descendants waited for the last 50 years to claim their citizenship? Is this a coincidence that they are leaving just after Brexit and just after UK economy having troubles?

 

"They" didn't wait for Brexit! Here another story on the same matter, three years old.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/sep/23/germany-israel-citizenship

 

Going this route of re-naturalization, if any of your descendants (like your father or mother who would be entitled to German citizenship)  are still alive, they must go through the process themselves before you, or you have to wait until they are dead. For this reason many younger people had to wait as their parents refuse to take up the citizenship again.

 

Counterquestion; why are so many non-Jewish British people scramble to take up Irish citizenship after the Brexit referendum? 

Edited August 18, 2016 by Morakot

[AlexRich]

Germany is a very different country today. A good idea as it gives the applicant the flexibility to reside in Europe should they wish to.

[HenryB]

20 hours ago, Jingthing said:

The simplest answer to that is to have a Jewish mother as Jewish ethnicity is matrilineal in nature. Palestinians, Cypriots, Chinese, etc. with Jewish mothers as well. 

 

A more expanded answer is to refer to the actual law:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Politics/Other_Law_Law_of_Return.html

 

 

The Germans know who a Jew is

I will trust the Germans on that

 

[HenryB]

Maybe Jews feel more safe in German than England

I notice in Thailand many English have nothing to do with England except their pension

[Galactus]

44 minutes ago, Morakot said:

 

"They" didn't wait for Brexit! Here another story on the same matter, three years old.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/sep/23/germany-israel-citizenship

 

Going this route of re-naturalization, if any of your descendants (like your father or mother who would be entitled to German citizenship)  are still alive, they must go through the process themselves before you, or you have to wait until they are dead. For this reason many younger people had to wait as their parents refuse to take up the citizenship again.

 

Counterquestion; why are so many non-Jewish British people scramble to take up Irish citizenship after the Brexit referendum? 

 

'Applications for German citizenship from dispossessed British émigré Jews and their families – which normally run at just 20 per year – have spiked sharply after the June 23 vote which cast a pall of uncertainty over Britain’s future relations with Europe. '

 

as you can read, applications spiked after Brexit which brought uncertainty in terms of economy (which is soo important for jews as you know) and future. Same as for those want to get Irish passports.

 

 

[ilostmypassword]

7 minutes ago, Galactus said:

 

'Applications for German citizenship from dispossessed British émigré Jews and their families – which normally run at just 20 per year – have spiked sharply after the June 23 vote which cast a pall of uncertainty over Britain’s future relations with Europe. '

 

as you can read, applications spiked after Brexit which brought uncertainty in terms of economy (which is soo important for jews as you know) and future. Same as for those want to get Irish passports.

 

 

Actually, I don't know that. Are you saying the economy is more important for jews than to other people?  What exactly do you mean by that?

[Jingthing]

As usual and predictable any topic touching on Jews and/or Israel brings out the perverted Jew haters enthusiastically trying to infect others with their mental disease.

 

Back to the topic, I see this as part of the bigger picture about Brexit. A certain percentage of Brits (mostly of course NOT Jews) are so unhappy about Brexit passing and the loss of a real European passport that some are exploring, and a relative small number are following through on obtaining citizenship in a E.U. nation such as Germany or the Netherlands.

 

This is somewhat similar to huge wave of interest among Americans in CANADIAN citizenship in case the horrible thing happens, and trump is elected president.

 

The Germany situation offer is different for Jews because of the history of what happened to German Jews (mostly murdered). It's admirable of Germany to do this. The percentage of German background Jews that actually follow through with it is likely to be quite small.

 

Next ...

 

 

[Jingthing]

46 minutes ago, HenryB said:

The Germans know who a Jew is

I will trust the Germans on that

 

It's funny that you say that, but actually the question is "Who is a Jew" is never going to be fully settled, either by Jews themselves, by now friendly and liberal Germany, or by Jew haters.

[HenryB]

Jingthing wrote

It's funny that you say that, but actually the question is "Who is a Jew" is never going to be fully settled, either by Jews themselves, by now friendly and liberal Germany, or by Jew haters.

 

I agree it. It is only important under Stalin and Hitler.

That is what   David Ben-Gurion said about "Who is a Jew?"

Edited August 18, 2016 by HenryB
forgot to add

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, HenryB said:

I agree it. It is only important under Stalin and Hitler.

That is what   David Ben-Gurion said about "Who is a Jew?"

Perhaps but Ben-Gurion was only one Jew.  For example some religious Jews might not consider atheistic Jews to still be Jews but most of those atheistic Jews still do identify as Jews.  So it's a question that won't go away as long as there are Jews.  Again, Jewish is not only a religion. There is more to it than that. 

[Galactus]

1 hour ago, ilostmypassword said:

Actually, I don't know that. Are you saying the economy is more important for jews than to other people?  What exactly do you mean by that?

 

i say so important not more important but traditionally, jews make money from money throughout history for millenniums and they have vast business interests in each country through commerce and banking. this is a fact. usury was the main money making monopoly of jews again traditionally and still goes on.

Edited August 18, 2016 by Galactus

[Scott]

Off-topic post removed.

[ilostmypassword]

13 minutes ago, Galactus said:

 

i say so important not more important but traditionally, jews make money from money throughout history for millenniums and they have vast business interests in each country through commerce and banking. this is a fact. usury was the main money making monopoly of jews again traditionally and still goes on.

"traditionally, jews make money from money.."  All jews? Most jews? Some jews?.  

And the reason that Jews made money from usury was because the Catholic Church prohibited Christians from the practice.  And since European Jews were prohibited from practicing most professions, and even from farming, those few who could lend money did.  But it was never a large number. Even now, while Jews are certainly overrepresented in the banking profession, (as are Indians who reside in the USA) the vast majority of Jews have nothing to do with money lending.

[Shawn0000]

21 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

"traditionally, jews make money from money.."  All jews? Most jews? Some jews?.  

And the reason that Jews made money from usury was because the Catholic Church prohibited Christians from the practice.  And since European Jews were prohibited from practicing most professions, and even from farming, those few who could lend money did.  But it was never a large number. Even now, while Jews are certainly overrepresented in the banking profession, (as are Indians who reside in the USA) the vast majority of Jews have nothing to do with money lending.

 

Come on, the reason the Catholic church banned it was because of the Jewish money changers, you cant start history wherever it suits you.

[ilostmypassword]

1 minute ago, Shawn0000 said:

 

Come on, the reason the Catholic church banned it was because of the Jewish money changers, you cant start history wherever it suits you.

You're dead wrong. 

"Medieval Christian interest payment theology began with the First Council of Nicaea (325), which forbade clergy from engaging in usury.^[4] Later ecumenical councils applied this regulation to the laity.^[4][5]

Lateran III decreed that persons who accepted interest on loans could receive neither the sacraments nor Christian burial.^[6]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vix_pervenit

^{There's more, but fair use rules prohibit further quotation.  I don't know whether you're just naive and learned this version of history from anti-semites, or take a more active interest in promulgating this vicious nonsense.} 

[Grouse]

6 hours ago, Shawn0000 said:

 

History? What, where?

 

kind of ironic that you express disappointment in the results of xenophobia yet also express your fear of a hat and hairstyle.

 

Fear? I don't think so

 

I just don't want to know what religion or fetish you are in to.

 

Do what you want in your own home but I don't want it in my face thanks

[Shawn0000]

1 minute ago, ilostmypassword said:

You're dead wrong. 

"Medieval Christian interest payment theology began with the First Council of Nicaea (325), which forbade clergy from engaging in usury.^[4] Later ecumenical councils applied this regulation to the laity.^[4][5]

Lateran III decreed that persons who accepted interest on loans could receive neither the sacraments nor Christian burial.^[6]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vix_pervenit

^{There's more, but fair use rules prohibit further quotation.  I don't know whether you're just naive and learned this version of history from anti-semites, or take a more active interest in promulgating this vicious nonsense.} 

 

OMG, anti-semite, vicious nonsense, what on earth has gotten into you, all I am doing is going back to the start of the story rather than starting half way through like you.

 

Now, why do you think they found themselves so opposed to high interest loans?  Do you think it was their idea?   No, it wasn't, it was largely because of the story of Jesus and the Cleansing of the Temple, it was because Jesus was violently against usury, of course really he was just repeating the Law of Moses but it was Jesus' take on the matter that led the church to forbid it.

[Shawn0000]

22 minutes ago, Grouse said:

 

Fear? I don't think so

 

I just don't want to know what religion or fetish you are in to.

 

Do what you want in your own home but I don't want it in my face thanks

 

You not wanting to know something about somebody comes across as cowardliness, i'm pretty sure that is what it is.