British Jews seek German citizenship on Brexit fears

[Morakot]

3 hours ago, Galactus said:

as you can read, applications spiked after Brexit which brought uncertainty in terms of economy (which is soo important for jews as you know) and future. Same as for those want to get Irish passports.

 

So, you are basically saying , Jews and non-Jews are alike and everyone is worried about the economy. That's a nice change of tune!

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, Shawn0000 said:

 

OMG, anti-semite, vicious nonsense, what on earth has gotten into you, all I am doing is going back to the start of the story rather than starting half way through like you.

 

Now, why do you think they found themselves so opposed to high interest loans?  Do you think it was their idea?   No, it wasn't, it was largely because of the story of Jesus and the Cleansing of the Temple, it was because Jesus was violently against usury, of course really he was just repeating the Law of Moses but it was Jesus' take on the matter that led the church to forbid it.

 

Now you're getting into bible stories and how the Christian bible story describes how the Jew Jesus didn't like something going on with some other Jews (ones that weren't farmers,  bakers, acupuncturists, or prostitutes) in ancient times.

Yes we know the Christian bible stories. The ancient Jews killed Jesus ... money lending ... blah blah blah. Used to rationalize persecution and even genocide of Jews for thousands of years.

 

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitic_canard
 

Quote

 

An antisemitic canard is an unfounded rumor or false allegation defamatory to Judaism as an ethnicity or religion, or toJews as an ethnic or religious group. Antisemitic canards often form part of broader theories of Jewish conspiracies. According to defense attorney Kenneth Stern, "Historically, Jews have not fared well around conspiracy theories. Such ideas fuel anti-Semitism. The myths that Jews killed Christ, or poisoned wells, or killed Christian children to bake matzo, or 'made up' the Holocaust, or plot to control the world, do not succeed each other; rather, the list of anti-Semitic canards gets longer."[1]

 

 

Quote

Accusations of usury and profiteering
"The issue at stake was not really whether the Jews had entered it out of greed (as antisemites claimed) or because most other professions were barred to them... In countries where other professions were open to them, such as Al-Andalus and the Ottoman Empire, one finds more Jewish blacksmiths than Jewish money lenders. The high tide of Jewish usury was before the fifteenth century; as cities grew in power and affluence, the Jews were squeezed out from money lending with the development of banking."[45]

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitic_canard#Accusations_of_usury_and_profiteering

 

Edited August 18, 2016 by Jingthing

[Morakot]

24 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Yes we know the Christian bible stories. The ancient Jews killed Jesus ... money lending ... blah blah. Used to rationalize persecution and even genocide of Jews for thousands of years.

 

JT, I don't fully get what you and Shawn are arguing about, but what you wrote here is a terrible generalisation and has noting to do with the Christian story so ever.

 

It is common knowledge that the historical Jesus of Nazareth and his followers were all ancient Jews. Furthermore, Paul who we might consider one of the first "Christians" -- who aimed to unit the different Jewish tribes through the radical teachings of Jesus -- considered himself a Jew. He preached that Jesus is the Jewish Messiah and the Son of God.

Edited August 18, 2016 by Morakot

[Jingthing]

16 minutes ago, Morakot said:

 

JT, I don't fully get what you and Shawn are arguing about, but you wrote here is a terrible generalisation and has noting to do with the Christian story so ever.

 

It is common knowledge that the historical  Jesus and his followers were all ancient Jews. Furthermore, Paul who we might consider one of the first "Christian" -- who aimed to unit the different ancient Jewish tribes through the radical teachings of Jesus -- considered himself a Jew.

You're joking, right? Nothing to do with the Christian story? The Spanish Inquistion? Thousands of years of stereotyping, persecuting, and murdering Jews based on Christian theological rationalizations?

I'm not arguing with Shawn but I've grown suspicious of where he's coming from him. Sounds a bit like a passive aggressive game. Rejecting the ethnic aspect of the Jewish people, complaining about Jewish "exclusivity", now focusing on a part of the bible story, money lenders, that has been exploited by Jew haters since then. 

It's really bizarre. We have a modern story about an immigration policy in Germany and yet all the same type of ancient stuff comes out. 

Edited August 18, 2016 by Jingthing

[Morakot]

12 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

You're joking, right? Nothing to do with the Christian story? The Spanish Inquistion?

 

Let me rephrase your statement 'Christian bible story'.  Religious persecution and discrimination is not really a part of such bible story, but more like medieval politics.

 

I have not seen any sensible Christian perspective that doesn't acknowledge the deep entwined historical connection to the Abrahamic religion called Judaism.

Edited August 18, 2016 by Morakot

[Shawn0000]

4 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

 

Now you're getting into bible stories and how the Christian bible story describes how the Jew Jesus didn't like something going on with some other Jews (ones that weren't farmers,  bakers, acupuncturists, or prostitutes) in ancient times.

Yes we know the Christian bible stories. The ancient Jews killed Jesus ... money lending ... blah blah blah. Used to rationalize persecution and even genocide of Jews for thousands of years.

 

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitic_canard
 

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitic_canard#Accusations_of_usury_and_profiteering

 

 

If you want to understand why Christians did the things they did through history then you had better be prepared to get into bible stories.  Jesus didn't like those Jews breaking the Laws of Moses, he didn't like them subjugating the temple for their own monetary gain, you seem to infer it was because they weren't poor when of course it was actually because they were making other people poor and that has been the objection to usury for the past 5000 years, it is not about jealously it is about protection of civilization, Judaism forbids it like Christianity and Islam, and most Western countries do their best to prevent it with law, it is very important as it quickly spirals out of control and can only end in economic collapse. What happened later is a different story, yes, in the middle ages the Jews were persecuted for being greedy after being pushed into being money lenders, but that is not the point I argue, I argue your choice to start the story hundreds of years after it actually began, but I guess that suits your agenda better as then it looks as though there were never any bad Jews for the Christians to oppose, well there were, who pushed those Jews into offering terrible rates of exchange in the Temple?

[happy Joe]

Hey Brits would be good that you keep your Jewish home, huh.

 

We already have enough problems with the Arabs ...

[Morakot]

18 minutes ago, Shawn0000 said:

Jesus didn't like those Jews breaking the Laws of Moses, he didn't like them subjugating the temple for their own monetary gain

 

Now here is where we would like to see some sound references to any of the cannon texts to support such a phantasmagoric assertion ... 

Edited August 18, 2016 by Morakot

[Shawn0000]

4 minutes ago, happy Joe said:

Hey Brits would be good that you keep your Jewish home, huh.

 

We already have enough problems with the Arabs ...

 

What does that even mean?

[happy Joe]

6 minutes ago, Shawn0000 said:

 

What does that even mean?

 

Europe can not recover all the misery of the world ...

[Shawn0000]

Just now, Morakot said:

 

Now here is where we would like to some sound references to any of the cannon texts, to support such a phantasmagoric assertion ... 

 

"And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves"

 

 

 

[Morakot]

7 minutes ago, happy Joe said:

 

Europe can not recover all the misery of the world ...

 

Cheer up Joe! Don't believe everything you read in the news.

Edited August 18, 2016 by Morakot

[Morakot]

34 minutes ago, Shawn0000 said:

 

"And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves"

 

 

Yes and what is the connection to "Jews"?

 

All he seems to be saying here in this passage is: "Brothers" --fellow people-- don't be thieves  (Moses already said that); forget about buying and selling, because it seems to have taken over your life... you're now treading in the temple (if your read the sentence before). This is well within line of his new idea that the love of money is not good....

 

Nothing against "Jews" here.. What he does here in Matthew, he builds on Moses and an ingenious move preparers for his new "philosophy" that most people at the time would have considered quite far out. He uses the generalised thief --the one who is outside the expect social norms at the time[!!]-- as a hook and wisps out his brilliant idea not to love money, which actually furthers existing ideas of not stealing, because he saw some link between the two phenomena. This is totally pro-Jews, I'd say.

Edited August 18, 2016 by Morakot

[Shawn0000]

Just now, Morakot said:

 

Yes and what is the connection to "Jews"?

 

All he seems to be saying here in this passage is: "Brothers" --fellow people-- don't be thieves  (Moses already said that); forget about buying and selling, because it seems to have taken over your life (if your read the sentence before. This is well in within line of his new idea that the love of money is not good....

 

Nothing against "Jews" here.. What he does here in Matthew, he builds on Moses and in an ingenious move preparers for his new "philosophy" that most people at the time would have considered quite far out. He uses the generalised thief --the one who is outside the expect social norms at the time-- as a hook and wisps out his brilliant idea not to love money, which actually furthers existing ideas of not stealing. This is totally pro-Jews, I'd say.

 

Obviously he is not talking about their lives in general, he is talking about the temple and what they are doing in it.

 

He was helping other Jews, people who had come for Passover, but surely you are not trying to deny that the temple and its treasury were not also Jews?  And believe it or not, this is not about being pro or anti Jew, this is about the reality of the story, Jesus was neither, he was against some peoples actions, some happened to be Jews.

 

He does further the idea of Moses, that is true, but it was not a generalized thief that he spoke of, where do you get that from, it was specifically the money changers, he didn't turn the tables in the market, he turned the greedy money changers tables in the temple and they were the greedy Jews, the ones who have been referenced forever more, the reference that enabled the perverted version of Christianity in the middle ages to set up the Jews in the way that they did, the reference that helped enable Hitler to call Jews greedy and be believed, and the reference that is still heard today by every anti-Semite, to deny the existence of them would be disingenuous.

[Morakot]

49 minutes ago, Shawn0000 said:

And believe it or not, this is not about being pro or anti Jew, this is about the reality of the story, Jesus was neither, he was against some peoples actions, some happened to be Jews.

 

... yes, like a Jew he was himself!

 

 

 

49 minutes ago, Shawn0000 said:

He does further the idea of Moses, that is true, but it was not a generalized thief that he spoke of, where do you get that from, it was specifically the money changers, he didn't turn the tables in the market, he turned the greedy money changers tables in the temple and they were the greedy Jews

 

You mean greedy people? Everyone in the story was a Jew. You make sound like as if you believe the perverted version of history and theology that was used for political ends...

 

 

On a side note, " generalized thief" just means a non-specific person and the exception we have about them.

 

The thief is used as device to single out those who he considered as having lost their values on relation to the (Mosaic) law. Trading [see 21:12], including lending (even in the temple) was technically not against the law! That's the whole point. This is the switch: the development of Moses happens precisely here. He moves away from strict legalism and introduces a broader concept (we might call this nowadays in the spirit of the law, rather by the letter of it). He is using the extreme... now they are even treading and lending in the temple...  presumably they have fallen in love with money... because he saw some link between stealing and the love of money. The story wouldn't have worked if he had sent the traders and lenders away from the market. Why? Because they were just doing their business; it wouldn't have been credible that these people were in love with money.

 

 

Edited August 18, 2016 by Morakot

[Scott]

Please get back on topic.  

[Shawn0000]

8 hours ago, Morakot said:

 

... yes, like a Jew he was himself!

 

 

 

 

You mean greedy people? Everyone in the story was a Jew. You make sound like as if you believe the perverted version of history and theology that was used for political ends...

 

 

On a side note, " generalized thief" just means a non-specific person and the exception we have about them.

 

The thief is used as device to single out those who he considered as having lost their values on relation to the (Mosaic) law. Trading [see 21:12], including lending (even in the temple) was technically not against the law! That's the whole point. This is the switch: the development of Moses happens precisely here. He moves away from strict legalism and introduces a broader concept (we might call this nowadays in the spirit of the law, rather by the letter of it). He is using the extreme... now they are even treading and lending in the temple...  presumably they have fallen in love with money... because he saw some link between stealing and the love of money. The story wouldn't have worked if he had sent the traders and lenders away from the market. Why? Because they were just doing their business; it wouldn't have been credible that these people were in love with money.

 

 

 

"You mean greedy people?"

If you cut off my sentence where you did it certainly makes me sound bad, huh?  I think from my following words it was perfectly clear what I was saying, so on that note I am through.

[Galactus]

22 hours ago, ilostmypassword said:

"traditionally, jews make money from money.."  All jews? Most jews? Some jews?.  

And the reason that Jews made money from usury was because the Catholic Church prohibited Christians from the practice.  And since European Jews were prohibited from practicing most professions, and even from farming, those few who could lend money did.  But it was never a large number. Even now, while Jews are certainly overrepresented in the banking profession, (as are Indians who reside in the USA) the vast majority of Jews have nothing to do with money lending.

 

money landing is forbidden to christians and muslims. jews saw this as an opportunity and traditionally, they are the biggest money lenders holding mass usery businesses. not bc they are pushed to banking jobs, it is just bc it is easier and faster to make money from money:))

and you know, interest system is plaguing this world from the beginning (saying from a anarchist point of view, not a religious one)banks and money lenders are biggest robbers on earth and if there is no interest system now, sure world is a lot more better and equal place at this moment with less wars and less bombs.

it is jews systematized shameful, unfair and inhumane interest system and introduced it to this world to make money from money, therefore, they introduced hard capitalism which created and still creates divisions, wars, and more problems around the globe.

Edited August 19, 2016 by Galactus

[Galactus]

21 hours ago, Morakot said:

 

So, you are basically saying , Jews and non-Jews are alike and everyone is worried about the economy. That's a nice change of tune!

 

still, please read the topic title, it is not about non jews, no?

no tone change. jews are following the money and their business interests are much more important to them than the citizenship of a country they were belonged and fed for long decades. they want to transfer their riches from UK too which will make UK weaker. 

that is why, Germany better needs to tell them to migrate to middle eastern Israel as they might do the same again.

 

Edited August 19, 2016 by Galactus

[Grouse]

OK, hands up! Who mentioned money and Jews? 

 

Come on, I haven't got all day....

[Jingthing]

This article may shed some light on the Christian roots of "traditional" European anti-semitism (it's only one kind but relevant to this topic as it's doubtful Hitler could have found the resonance he did demonizing Jews without the hate seed already being well established). We see it here, we see it on most every internet topic touching on Israel and Jews. The same old hateful myths and stereotypes, with the focus here being one the classics, about Jews and money.

Quote

 

You write in the book that you hear sermons every week in church that promote this kind of polarized thinking.

I heard one last week. The scripture put before Christians and Catholics was about Jesus’ attack on the Temple. That’s a classic case of this problem. Jesus is understood as going into the Temple and defending what he calls “my father’s house” against the avaricious Jews. He upends the tables of the money-changers as if the money-changers are medieval Jewish lenders. That’s the way the story is heard.

It’s an outrage to imagine that Jesus was in any way opposed to the normal business of the temple. If there was money-changing going on at the Temple, it was because people, Jews from all over the Mediterranean world, were showing up there regularly, and they all had different currencies. In order to have the currency required to buy the sacrificial offering, they had to have a way to change their money. It was a service, in other words. There’s no way Jesus would have regarded that as offensive. So if Jesus committed some disturbance at the Temple—and scholars seem to agree that he did—it has to be understood in defense of the Temple, not in opposition to it.

That’s a subtlety that Christian preachers don’t have. They don’t get it.

 

 

http://www.salon.com/2014/12/20/james_carroll_on_disarming_the_memory_of_jesus_america_threatens_the_world_with_violence_in_ways_that_no_other_country_does/

Edited August 19, 2016 by Jingthing

[Morakot]

17 hours ago, Galactus said:

 

still, please read the topic title, it is not about non jews, no?

 

 

 

The topic is about a British author who has written a book about some aspects of Germany where his family used to live. He's now planning to have his German nationality reinstated in the wake of uncertainties caused by Brexit and as a result of having spent some time in Berlin and meeting German people.

 

The topic is NOT about some wild assumptions of anti-Semitic flavour about Jews and lending money. This forum is not a place to proffer extremist ideas.

Edited August 20, 2016 by Morakot

[Jingthing]

Doesn't matter.

For Jew haters and/or obsessive Israel demonizers ANY topic touching on Jews or Israel is about broadcasting the symptoms of the mental disease of antisemitism and trying to infect others with it. It's very infectious and it's pervasive, even in nations with NO actual Jews living there.

 

To add a Brexit twist,  it's well known there has been a spike in anti-immigrant, minority people hate crimes in the U.K. since the passage of it. Reportedly there has been a spike in antisemitic hate crimes there as well.

 

 

Quote

 

With Brexit on the right and Corbyn on the left, antisemitism is on the rise

 

A significant proportion of British Jews feel less safe after the referendum, but, says Sarah Ebner, an ill feeling was brewing long before that

 

https://www.the-pool.com/news-views/opinion/2016/26/with-brexit-on-the-right-and-corbyn-on-the-left-antisemitism-is-on-the-rise

Edited August 20, 2016 by Jingthing

[nausea]

Enough already, Jews are like the Irish, or the Armenians, or the Tutsi, you had a hard time once. It's finished, move on. 

[Galactus]

2 hours ago, Morakot said:

 

The topic is about a British author who has written a book about some aspects of Germany where his family used to live. He's now planning to have his German nationality reinstated in the wake of uncertainties caused by Brexit and as a result of having spent some time in Berlin and meeting German people.

 

The topic is NOT about some wild assumptions of anti-Semitic flavour about Jews and lending money. This forum is not a place to proffer extremist ideas.

 

 extremism or reality?  i believe your denial contains more extremism to me and what i wrote is what i think about spiking jewish applications for german citizenship in uk after brexit and why.

these are my ideas and a forum is about posting relevant ideas about a specific topic. just bc you dont like them, it does not mean they are extremist. you have to learn how to respect others' ideas.

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, nausea said:

Enough already, Jews are like the Irish, or the Armenians, or the Tutsi, you had a hard time once. It's finished, move on. 

Interesting.

So is anti-Irish, anti-Armenian, and anti-Tutsi sentiment as bad as it's been in Europe since World War 2?

I would agree overall this is quite a good era for the Jewish people. There is a strong nation state now,  Israel, prepared to defend itself, and combined with the USA, that's where the majority of current Jews live.

But there are a lot of danger clouds happening as well, such as the fantastic level and pervasiveness of Jew hatred in the Muslim world (which surrounds Israel and is rising demographically in Europe), the rise of antisemtism in Europe, the rise of BDS movement even in the USA which at its core denies the right of Israel to exist. 

Yes I know deniers and Jew haters think Jews are paranoid.

History (and looking at current events as well) prove that what appears as Jewish paranoia is well proven not paranoid at all.

In Europe (and the USA) the Jew hatred that existed historically was almost all a matter of traditional antisemitism with Christian roots and/or nativist fascist (as detailed in this thread). Just that one flavor led to the Nazi treatment of the Jews which face facts was well supported all over Europe.  Now it's a triple whammy -- traditional Christian roots and/or right wing nativist fascist PLUS Islamist root Jew hatred PLUS leftist inspired Jew hatred (with the false narrative about Jews being white oppressors of dark people).  And all of these groups are working 24/7 on the internet now to spread the Jew hatred infection ... and there are many more of them than people who care about defending Jewish people from antisemitism. 

 

 

Edited August 20, 2016 by Jingthing

[Shawn0000]

15 hours ago, Jingthing said:

This article may shed some light on the Christian roots of "traditional" European anti-semitism (it's only one kind but relevant to this topic as it's doubtful Hitler could have found the resonance he did demonizing Jews without the hate seed already being well established). We see it here, we see it on most every internet topic touching on Israel and Jews. The same old hateful myths and stereotypes, with the focus here being one the classics, about Jews and money.

 

http://www.salon.com/2014/12/20/james_carroll_on_disarming_the_memory_of_jesus_america_threatens_the_world_with_violence_in_ways_that_no_other_country_does/

 

We wouldn't call it the cleansing of the Temple if we did not recognize that it was about protecting the Temple, all your article sheds light on is some paranoiacs mindset.

[Morakot]

1 hour ago, Galactus said:

these are my ideas and a forum is about posting relevant ideas about a specific topic.

 

Thank you for the input!
I don't think Thomas Harding is seeking German citizenship in order to move to Germany. He is an established British author and journalist who lives in the US/ UK and is married to a US citizen. I don't think he is one of those who 'follow money' looking for a 'safer harbor' for some 'economic reasons'.

 

His reasons for re-naturalization are the following:

 

Quote

• First, I have become familiar with scores of ordinary Germans. Since July 2013, I have been working with the residents of a small village outside of Berlin to save our family’s 1930s lake house from destruction...

• Second, I have been inspired by Angela Merkel and her government’s decision to take in more than a million refugees from Syria and other conflict zones...

• Then, of course, there was the Brexit vote. I felt sick when I heard that the leave vote had won the referendum. I was about to be stripped of my EU passport, no longer would I have the right to work and live in 27 other European countries....  

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2016/jul/02/brexit-drove-me-to-embrace-my-german-roots

 

Edited August 20, 2016 by Morakot

[Jingthing]

9 minutes ago, Shawn0000 said:

 

We wouldn't call it the cleansing of the Temple if we did not recognize that it was about protecting the Temple, all your article sheds light on is some paranoiacs mindset.

Wow.

What's your agenda?

Are you actually denying that the bible stories have been used to stir up traditional Jew hatred through the ages?

 

[Thorgal]

I think it's highly recommended to read Karl Marx essay 'On the Jewish question' to realy understand the OP.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Jewish_Question

 

It's far from a 'fait divers' concerning citizenship.