Beach bans on the burkini in France sparks widespread debate

[Witblitz]

Can a western lady wear a bikini in public in Saudi ? One thinks not..and one suspects it would be banned by the goat fanciers

 

So  no problem with france banning the burkini....same same 

 

 

[farcanell]

5 hours ago, canuckamuck said:

It is a contradiction if you look at the small picture. Banning a type of dress is not an act of freedom. However, the Burkhini is only a symptom of a malady which has many facets. One facet, which should horrify the liberals and feminists which currently dominate Europe, is the systematic oppression of women. Pushing back against  the oppression of women wherever it is found should  need no explanation. Especially since western women are losing their freedom to be safe in their own neighbourhoods. Yes the burkhini is well intentioned and on its own is not anything to fear. People should have the right to dress as they wish, even if it makes them appear brain damaged. But western civilisation is at war and these are not normal times. Resistance to bronze age barbarianism is act of civil defense.

 

My finger was hovering over the like button.... Then came your last sentence.

 

"resistance to Bronze Age barbarianism is an act of civil defense."

 

my personal "outrageous statement" about Islam is that it is a religion that is trailing the norms of "western" religions by a hundred years or more.... That's my opinion, and I feel, that with more exposure, over time, to western culture, which is a "melting pot" of all cultures, attitudes will change... even within Islam.

 

therefore, minor steps should be actively encouraged, to facilitate change... Crawl, walk, run.... Verses discouraged, which will further entrench what westerners view as oppressive behavior.

 

a hundred years ago, equality for western women, around the world, was gaining traction, but as yet, (today) true equality is still unattained.

 

burkinis are a minor step forward, allowing Muslim women more freedom.... Crawl, walk, run.

 

attached is a picture, showing western women at the beach, conforming to societal norms,  100 years ago.... Which is far removed from either barbarism or the Bronze Age.... And.... Hopefully something to consider before dragging the guillotine out of storage.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ilostmypassword]

1 minute ago, farcanell said:

 

My finger was hovering over the like button.... Then came your last sentence.

 

"resistance to Bronze Age barbarianism is an act of civil defense."

 

my personal "outrageous statement" about Islam is that it is a religion that is trailing the norms of "western" religions by a hundred years or more.... That's my opinion, and I feel, that with more exposure, over time, to western culture, which is a "melting pot" of all cultures, attitudes will change... even within Islam.

 

therefore, minor steps should be actively encouraged, to facilitate change... Crawl, walk, run.... Verses discouraged, which will further entrench what westerners view as oppressive behavior.

 

a hundred years ago, equality for western women, around the world, was gaining traction, but as yet, (today) true equality is still unattained.

 

burkinis are a minor step forward, allowing Muslim women more freedom.... Crawl, walk, run.

 

attached is a picture, showing western women at the beach, conforming to societal norms,  100 years ago.... Which is far removed from either barbarism or the Bronze Age.... And.... Hopefully something to consider before dragging the guillotine out of storage.

 

 

 

 

 

 

A 

17 hours ago, Opl said:

If you are from muslim culture and consider that women should not go around in their everyday life clothed like any other western woman, then I'm entiled to think that you have little consideration for women dressed "western style".

I am a woman, live in France and I feel uncomfortable anytime I pass by a woman veiled from head to toes.

If you go to the beach in France, you know you will find people half nude, if it's not correct for you ,  don't mix - it's a contradiction.

 

 

 

18 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

All covering clothing is nothing to do with Islam. It is cultural. Muslims born in western countries don't normally wear burqas because burqas are not western cultural dress. Muslims in some African countries dress differently from Muslims in India or Saudi or Malaya. Afghan women wear different apparel from the Muslim women that host programs on Al Jazira. It isn't even mandatory to cover the hair. The only requirement is to dress modestly.

 

IMO, one of the greatest victories of the fundamentalist Muslims is to fool the people and leaders of western countries into believing that cultural clothing is religious when it is not. IMO cultural clothing has no RIGHT to be worn in a secular country, other than what that country allows.

As readers of Alice in Wonderland might recall, there is a reference in there to bathing machines. These were huts on rails that could be rolled into the sea. Women could change into their swimming attire there and then be rolled into sea whereupon they would exit the machine with all their modesty preserved.

[Grouse]

4 hours ago, Zendo said:

simple1, there has always been facilities for kids at public school but it was just simple understanding and respect, no special meals was prepared.

 

"Apparently the policy of pork free meals has been overturned by some right wing councils ", where I grow I never seen this kind of special meals served, If kids didn't want to eat pork (and most of muslims children I was at school with eated it without any problems... ham is good with purée !)   then they eat only vegs,  there was no other meat served. Some muslims lobbies pushed so hard to get special hallal food that yes it bothered right wing and they jumped into to forbid it... exactly the same that is happening now : strategy for dividing peoples, it starts with the kids of course !

 

You want to live in a particular country? Then fit in with local mores and customs.

 

Halal butchery and outward religious expression should be banned immediately

 

Children should be protected from ridiculous religious hocus pocus until they are old enough to decide for themselves

 

Seeing these children here dressed up like goodness knows what makes me want vomit.

[farcanell]

5 minutes ago, Witblitz said:

Can a western lady wear a bikini in public in Saudi ? One thinks not..and one suspects it would be banned by the goat fanciers

 

So  no problem with france banning the burkini....same same 

 

 

 

A persistantly stupid statement.... Is Saudi a free and democratic country?

 

no.... So it's far from "same same"

 

this type of thinking is regressive.... As in scrap democracy, which we have fought and bled for, over hundreds of years

 

show some intelligence, man.

[ilostmypassword]

6 minutes ago, Grouse said:

 

You want to live in a particular country? Then fit in with local mores and customs.

 

Halal butchery and outward religious expression should be banned immediately

 

Children should be protected from ridiculous religious hocus pocus until they are old enough to decide for themselves

 

Seeing these children here dressed up like goodness knows what makes me want vomit.

And stop Jews from wearing yarmulkahs and dressing up in Medieval European garb. And ban kosher food.

[farcanell]

9 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

A 

 

As readers of Alice in Wonderland might recall, there is a reference in there to bathing machines. These were huts on rails that could be rolled into the sea. Women could change into their swimming attire there and then be rolled into sea whereupon they would exit the machine with all their modesty preserved.

 

Exactly!

 

but let's remove that from the Alice in wonderland analogy, such that some folk here don't therefore decide it's just a titbit of an authors fanciful imagination

 

per my claim above.... We are but 100 years further advanced in what we perceive as "normal"

 

[Linzz]

2 minutes ago, Witblitz said:

Can a western lady wear a bikini in public in Saudi ? One thinks not..and one suspects it would be banned by the goat fanciers

 

So  no problem with france banning the burkini....same same 

 

 

 

On the face of it it is outrageous to our tolerant standards. But Saudi Arabia is a repressive regime where there is absolutely no tolerance of anything outside their cultural and religious dogma. I do not think it's useful to gravitate towards repression as well because if they do we will.  I have seen interviews with Muslim women stating they WANT to cover up because it's their norm. Not because their men will punish them. Perhaps that takes place in certain repressive countries but I am not talking about the Taliban or ISIS or Saudi Arabia, just the average cultural Muslim woman in the West. There is nothing wrong with modesty if they are uncomfortable otherwise. Sure they look strange  in burkinis but that's their problem. I remember my Thai wife being so worried Thai people might see her in a bikini when we went to a resort one time. She liked the adventure of it but her culture made her feel very self conscious.

[farcanell]

11 minutes ago, Grouse said:

 

You want to live in a particular country? Then fit in with local mores and customs.

 

Halal butchery and outward religious expression should be banned immediately

 

Children should be protected from ridiculous religious hocus pocus until they are old enough to decide for themselves

 

Seeing these children here dressed up like goodness knows what makes me want vomit.

 

You might want to educate yourself on trends in human migration, since the ice began to melt....

[Linzz]

29 minutes ago, Grouse said:

 

You want to live in a particular country? Then fit in with local mores and customs.

 

Halal butchery and outward religious expression should be banned immediately

 

Children should be protected from ridiculous religious hocus pocus until they are old enough to decide for themselves

 

Seeing these children here dressed up like goodness knows what makes me want vomit.

 

Gosh you would have been really happy in Mao's China then. You could have gotten to wear one of their grey uniforms as well, you would have been in paradise!

[sandyf]

On 8/17/2016 at 5:43 AM, happy Joe said:

I think these bans are a huge mistake of France.

 

The freedom ends where someone else's begins.

 

 Women in burkini commit no offense or embarrassment to others. Accordingly, these decrees are pure ostracism that will fuel hatred.

It cannot be disputed that Muslims in a Christian country should receive the same respect as Christians do in a Muslim country.

[ilostmypassword]

9 minutes ago, sandyf said:

It cannot be disputed that Muslims in a Christian country should receive the same respect as Christians do in a Muslim country.

France is not a Christian country. Its government is strictly secular.  And if it were a Christian country, then it should act in accordance with this rule: "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." Matthew 7-12.

[sandyf]

12 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

France is not a Christian country. Its government is strictly secular.  And if it were a Christian country, then it should act in accordance with this rule: "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." Matthew 7-12.

You should try living in the real world. I was working in Burnley when the Muslims went on the rampage because planning permission was turned down for a 4th mosque.

Rightly or wrongly the mode of dress in question is perceived as a symbol of Islam, and that at the moment is an open wound in France and still a sore point in many parts of the UK.

 

Authorities are quite within their rights to take any action necessary to prevent confrontation between differing points of view. Segregation exists in many forms but nothing like religion to get people standing on a soapbox.

[greenchair]

7 hours ago, Linzz said:

 

To us it is a symbol of oppression but to a lot of Muslims they feel uncomfortable  not being covered up. It's cultural practices. Each to their own.

But how is the preservation of freedom for freedom loving people maintained if the State dictates what people should wear on a beach? Sounds like a contradiction in terms. Are the Muslims asking for everyone to wear burkinis? Are the near nakeds asking for everyone to wear bikinis? Looks like they're mingling ok. 

 

 Its become a strange world when once upon a time the outcry was because of too little clothing and now the outcry is because of too much clothing. Perhaps if offenses are felt too strongly in either case there should be burkini beaches just as there are nudist beaches in many countries.

There are burkini beaches, in their own countries and foreigners are put in prison or raped or beaten or deported if they wear a bikini on burkini beaches. They can go there. 

[greenchair]

36 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

France is not a Christian country. Its government is strictly secular.  And if it were a Christian country, then it should act in accordance with this rule: "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." Matthew 7-12.

What are you saying? ??

Blow up the burkini bathers 

[Zendo]

Just to put more salt on the plate, did you guys know that in Marroco and Tunisia  (from where almost all muslims in France are coming from, except Algeria) Taking bath at the beach fully dressed, with burkini or normal clothes is FORBIDDEN ?

 

Edited August 18, 2016 by Zendo

[farcanell]

6 minutes ago, Zendo said:

Just to put more salt on the plate, did you guys know that in Marroco and Tunisia  (from where almost all muslims in France are coming from, except Algeria) Taking bath at the beach fully dressed, with burkini or normal clothes is FORBIDDEN ?

 

 

There you go.... This is exactly why it should be encouraged in a democratic society.... To help Muslim women enjoy more freedom in their lives... Baby steps toward enlightenment... Now if France ( the mother of modern democracy) can only work towards exporting these values back across the med, we will all be winners. ?

[farcanell]

8 hours ago, MaxYakov said:

In support of the principles of freedom of choice, I don't have a problem with burkinis on the beach.

 

It just looks as stupid as the street burkas and I'm deeply concerned about their getting sufficient vitamin D.  

 

Recommended swimwear in Australia..... The birthplace of the burkini.... And the home of sunburnt skin

[GuestHouse]

On 17 August 2016 at 8:11 AM, Grouse said:

This is one of the reasons I am so anti Muslim (I think it's number 37 on my list just in front of auto capitalisation of muslim)

 

I don't want to know what your religion is. Don't wave your burke or beard in my face

 

France is a SECULAR state like all others should be. Fit in with local mores and customs.

 

Keep your perverted fancy dress outfits in your own home. I DONT want to be exposed to your daft ideas.

 

By your own aguments you can avoid being offended by not going to France.

 

This though denies you the oportunity to be offended.

[farcanell]

1 hour ago, sandyf said:

It cannot be disputed that Muslims in a Christian country should receive the same respect as Christians do in a Muslim country.

 

Of course it can... What a foolish comment

 

muslims in a Christian country benifit from secular and political freedom and enlightenment

 

christians in a Muslim country suffer religiouse suppression

 

however... If you have it your way (same goes for other ignorant and intolerant posters), this may well change, and your democratic liberties will be eroded.... As I said earlier.... Regressive thinking

[farcanell]

55 minutes ago, greenchair said:

There are burkini beaches, in their own countries and foreigners are put in prison or raped or beaten or deported if they wear a bikini on burkini beaches. They can go there. 

 

I could be wrong, but I believe France would qualify as ones own country, if one was a French born Muslim (woman).... Perhaps your advocating mass relocation and deportation of a section of the community, as outlined in what book?

 

mein Kampf perhaps?

[farcanell]

1 hour ago, greenchair said:

What are you saying? ??

Blow up the burkini bathers 

 

How on on earth can you not comprehend Matt 7-12?

 

Are you suggesting that you actually want to be blown up?

 

i find it ironic, that as a true blue atheist, I can be so appalled by the lack of religious tolerance shown here... Let that serve to humiliate bible bashers who condemn atheism. 

 

And... I really really hope that none of the intolerant posters are Americans, who cling so fastidiously to their second amendment rights, given what the very first of the amendments proscribe.

[Usernames]

The way these burkinis look to me is that if those wearing them were to slap an oxygen tank on their back and slip on a regulator and face mask, the burkinites could get away with going scuba diving in a dive suit.

[ilostmypassword]

2 hours ago, greenchair said:

What are you saying? ??

Blow up the burkini bathers 

What are you saying? Are you dyslexic?  Your comment only makes sense if you are suicidal.  

Edited August 18, 2016 by ilostmypassword

[Zendo]

2 hours ago, farcanell said:

 

There you go.... This is exactly why it should be encouraged in a democratic society.... To help Muslim women enjoy more freedom in their lives... Baby steps toward enlightenment... Now if France ( the mother of modern democracy) can only work towards exporting these values back across the med, we will all be winners. ?

 

Baby steps toward enlightenment... => Enlightment ? 

I wish I see these people more interrested in Sufi whirling than provocation...  some says it's a real powerfull meditation technique ^^

At least we can have fun.. that's also a way to enlightment, maybe the best.. but I doubt that kind of things exist for real, specially on these dark ages !

[7by7]

1) Comparisons between what people can and can't do or wear in a repressive regime such as Saudi Arabia and a free, democratic one such as France are ridiculous. Are those who make such comparisons really saying that Western democracies should abandon all the rights and freedoms we enjoy because other countries are undemocratic and the people there don't enjoy the same rights and freedoms we do?

 

I doubt it; I suspect what they mean is that it is only those minorities of which they disapprove who should have their rights and freedoms restricted. Which, if correct, makes them very similar in belief to the extremists and terrorists who want to restrict our rights and freedoms!

 

2) There have been a number of posters saying that these burkini wearing women are trying to force other women to do the same; They are not. No one is saying that women can't wear a bikini on any beach in France, or even go topless if they wish. It is the burkini wearing women who are being told what they can and can't wear.

 

3) The burqa is not worn by the majority of Muslim women, whether they live in Europe or elsewhere. It is mainly worn by many, but by no means all, Muslim women of Middle Eastern background. They are not alone in this.

 

Not a Muslim; Jewish. A member of the Haredi burqa sect.

 

Talking of Haredi Jews, what do those who want to force women to wear what they consider to be acceptable, on the beach or elsewhere, think of what this group of Haredi Jewish girls enjoying a day at the English seaside are wearing?

Should they be forced to dress the same as the girls on the left of the picture? I don't think so, but those who object to Muslim women wearing modest clothing must also object to this. to do otherwise would lay them open to accusations of hypocrisy.

 

4) Liberté, égalité, fraternité; except when it comes to wearing the clothes of your choice on the beach, it seems!

[i claudius]

22 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

1) Comparisons between what people can and can't do or wear in a repressive regime such as Saudi Arabia and a free, democratic one such as France are ridiculous. Are those who make such comparisons really saying that Western democracies should abandon all the rights and freedoms we enjoy because other countries are undemocratic and the people there don't enjoy the same rights and freedoms we do?

 

I doubt it; I suspect what they mean is that it is only those minorities of which they disapprove who should have their rights and freedoms restricted. Which, if correct, makes them very similar in belief to the extremists and terrorists who want to restrict our rights and freedoms!

 

2) There have been a number of posters saying that these burkini wearing women are trying to force other women to do the same; They are not. No one is saying that women can't wear a bikini on any beach in France, or even go topless if they wish. It is the burkini wearing women who are being told what they can and can't wear.

 

3) The burqa is not worn by the majority of Muslim women, whether they live in Europe or elsewhere. It is mainly worn by many, but by no means all, Muslim women of Middle Eastern background. They are not alone in this.

 

Not a Muslim; Jewish. A member of the Haredi burqa sect.

 

Talking of Haredi Jews, what do those who want to force women to wear what they consider to be acceptable, on the beach or elsewhere, think of what this group of Haredi Jewish girls enjoying a day at the English seaside are wearing?

Should they be forced to dress the same as the girls on the left of the picture? I don't think so, but those who object to Muslim women wearing modest clothing must also object to this. to do otherwise would lay them open to accusations of hypocrisy.

 

4) Liberté, égalité, fraternité; except when it comes to wearing the clothes of your choice on the beach, it seems!

 

 

I find the clothes on the right a little dated but no different from what many western women wear , the Burka is not a normal western garb and to be honest in my old home town i had never seen one until the mosque came and an influx of "new immigrants" now most women wear them and even the men who used to wear western style clothes weat stuff that would not look out of place in the middle east or Pakistan /

[farcanell]

14 minutes ago, Zendo said:

 

Baby steps toward enlightenment... => Enlightment ? 

I wish I see these people more interrested in Sufi whirling than provocation...  some says it's a real powerfull meditation technique ^^

At least we can have fun.. that's also a way to enlightment, maybe the best.. but I doubt that kind of things exist for real, specially on these dark ages !

 

Ummm.... Not sure if your Meds are working.... Are you saying I misspelled enlightenment?

which is OK... Uneducated... But Ok.

 

but yes... Whirling dances are oftentimes entertaining... And practiced by many cultures worldwide... Sometimes accompanied by drugs... Sometimes as a part of superstitious practiced

[Zendo]

sorry for not writing good...  not native english writer.

 

Just the word "Enlightenment" makes me laugh because it's really really something that is not scientific or logic, nothing to do with atheism  as you said you are.

that's totally religious or spiritual and just a philosophic concept that can't be debate or understood in totality, cause you'll have to be enlightened !

[Scott]

Please stay on the topic of the thread.