An Australian trying to retire in Thailand

[JIMMY56]

My Australian friend has retired here in Thailand, he is 66 years old, he has lived here the last 5 years, he has been refused a pension from the Australian government, they are telling him he has to live in Australia 2 full years before he is  eligible for his pension, he lived and worked in Australia for 43 years prior to him retiring, he had a telephone interview  this morning from Queensland 6.30 am 26/08/2016, he was told no chance, that is the law, he must come back and live in Australia for 2 years before he becomes eligible

Would like to hear from any Aussie expats on this matter, or anyone who has an opinion

[SgtRock]

Sadly for your friend.

 

I believe he has been given the correct information.

[dhream]

They're so nice the Aussie government. They own you.
They tax you to death. They never let you actually go.
Nevermind you're not a social burden to them here.
Never mind you've paid your dues already.
Nevermind you can't afford to go and live there for 2 years to get their dog food pension...
Nevermind the dollar is a joke.
I am disengaging from them, I will make my own luck, like I have done my entire life.
Theirs is not the only passport I have, I made sure of that too, while the going was easy, before the west got paranoid about a few idiot ragheads...


Sent from my HUAWEI MT7-TL10 using Tapatalk

[brewsterbudgen]

How long before the UK follows suit?

[yaagjon]

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but your friend should have enquired about this before. It is correct I understand.

 

Your friend can go for holidays up to 6 weeks overseas whilst living in Australia during that two year period, I could be wrong, but I believe there is no limit to the amount of holidays.

[manfredtillmann]

the australian government are great mid - game goal post shifters!

when i migrated to oz in 81 as a non - assisted, self paying immigrant, just about every rule in place today governing pensions and superannuations did not exist.

 

[Bob9]

Your mate has been caught out by a common mistake made by Aussie Expats living overseas - i.e. assuming because one qualifies for the pension that one will be approved to receive it while overseas.  In the last 15-20 years there has been a LOT of changes in the rules about pensions and superannuation (goal posts moved as one says above) and there will be many more.

 

The rule I refer to for your mate is being a 'resident' of Australia and therefore living in Australia at the time one applies for the age pension. This was done to stop people coming to live and work in Australia for 10+ years, and then go back and live in their home country, and then claim the pension once they qualify on age. One country in particular took advantage of this - Greece. There are now 100,000+ Greeks still getting the Aussie age pension - once you qualify and are approved, then they cannot take it away from you (unless you come back to Aust).

 

In order to get the age pension now one has to prove that they are resident in Australia and intend to live in Australia (forever).  If you are living overseas and have done so for years .... NO.  If you  go back to Aust and then apply for the age pension and then go back overseas ....... NO.    

 

If you are refused due to being a non-resident, then you must go and live in Australia for 2 years (you will get the age pension while you do that) in order to prove that you intend to stay and live in Australia.  But if do that and are approved after 2 years, you can leave a month later and still get the age pension (less 20%) - go figure.

 

My advice to your mate is to go back and 'live' there for 2 years - and then leave and take the part-pension with him.  I reckon in a few years this option will be taken away, and he will no longer have that option   I understand that he can leave to go overseas in that 2 year period, but he will not be paid the pension while overseas, and the time he is overseas will be added to the 2 years 'probation' period. 

 

Personally, I am going back to live in Australia for a few years before I qualify for the pension, and then I will be back to LOS with the part-pension to top up my savings.  Having worked and paid taxes for over 40 years, it is something I am entitled to receive and am annoyed I must 'play games' to get what I am entitled to receive. 

 

https://www.humanservices.gov.au/customer/enablers/age-pension-while-travelling-outside-australia

 

I reckon they have illegally (Constitution and UN) denied people access to a pension that they are qualified to receive.  Where someone resides in the world should be irrelevent, unless they are a citizen of that country, or that country does not have full diplomatic acceptance in Australia. Certainly someone shouldn't get the full pension unless they worked and paid taxes for 40 years, and therefore the minimum should be 10 years (for 20%). And I also believe anyone who is not an Australian citizen and leaves to go live overseas, should not be able to get the age pension while overseas. But IMO as long as someone is and remains an Australian citizen and is able to qualify, then they should get the age pension no matter where they live. There is further case/argument to say that those living overseas are costing the Govt much less to support than those living in Aust (particularly health costs) and therefore it is a win win to 'alow' them to live overseas.  I would love it if any retired QC would be prepared to pro-bono take the case/argument to the High Court   Anyone ??

 

[manfredtillmann]

35 minutes ago, Bob9 said:

Your mate has been caught out by a common mistake made by Aussie Expats living overseas - i.e. assuming because one qualifies for the pension that one will be approved to receive it while overseas.  In the last 15-20 years there has been a LOT of changes in the rules about pensions and superannuation (goal posts moved as one says above) and there will be many more.

 

The rule I refer to for your mate is being a 'resident' of Australia and therefore living in Australia at the time one applies for the age pension. This was done to stop people coming to live and work in Australia for 10+ years, and then go back and live in their home country, and then claim the pension once they qualify on age. One country in particular took advantage of this - Greece. There are now 100,000+ Greeks still getting the Aussie age pension - once you qualify and are approved, then they cannot take it away from you (unless you come back to Aust).

 

In order to get the age pension now one has to prove that they are resident in Australia and intend to live in Australia (forever).  If you are living overseas and have done so for years .... NO.  If you  go back to Aust and then apply for the age pension and then go back overseas ....... NO.    

 

If you are refused due to being a non-resident, then you must go and live in Australia for 2 years (you will get the age pension while you do that) in order to prove that you intend to stay and live in Australia.  But if do that and are approved after 2 years, you can leave a month later and still get the age pension (less 20%) - go figure.

 

My advice to your mate is to go back and 'live' there for 2 years - and then leave and take the part-pension with him.  I reckon in a few years this option will be taken away, and he will no longer have that option   I understand that he can leave to go overseas in that 2 year period, but he will not be paid the pension while overseas, and the time he is overseas will be added to the 2 years 'probation' period. 

 

Personally, I am going back to live in Australia for a few years before I qualify for the pension, and then I will be back to LOS with the part-pension to top up my savings.  Having worked and paid taxes for over 40 years, it is something I am entitled to receive and am annoyed I must 'play games' to get what I am entitled to receive. 

 

https://www.humanservices.gov.au/customer/enablers/age-pension-while-travelling-outside-australia

 

I reckon they have illegally (Constitution and UN) denied people access to a pension that they are qualified to receive.  Where someone resides in the world should be irrelevent, unless they are a citizen of that country, or that country does not have full diplomatic acceptance in Australia. Certainly someone shouldn't get the full pension unless they worked and paid taxes for 40 years, and therefore the minimum should be 10 years (for 20%). And I also believe anyone who is not an Australian citizen and leaves to go live overseas, should not be able to get the age pension while overseas. But IMO as long as someone is and remains an Australian citizen and is able to qualify, then they should get the age pension no matter where they live. There is further case/argument to say that those living overseas are costing the Govt much less to support than those living in Aust (particularly health costs) and therefore it is a win win to 'alow' them to live overseas.  I would love it if any retired QC would be prepared to pro-bono take the case/argument to the High Court   Anyone ??

 

some of us won't even get a pension living in australia because we have done a little too well, working, paying taxes, supporting bludgers, useless politicians and an overstaffed public service.

but taking the government to court? no chance, none, nil! particularly not if it hits the public purse.

 

did you follow the court case of the south australian whine grower a few years ago attempting to outlaw compulsory voting? if you thought banana courts only exist in thailand...

 

[yaagjon]

42 minutes ago, Bob9 said:

Your mate has been caught out by a common mistake made by Aussie Expats living overseas - i.e. assuming because one qualifies for the pension that one will be approved to receive it while overseas.  In the last 15-20 years there has been a LOT of changes in the rules about pensions and superannuation (goal posts moved as one says above) and there will be many more.

 

The rule I refer to for your mate is being a 'resident' of Australia and therefore living in Australia at the time one applies for the age pension. This was done to stop people coming to live and work in Australia for 10+ years, and then go back and live in their home country, and then claim the pension once they qualify on age. One country in particular took advantage of this - Greece. There are now 100,000+ Greeks still getting the Aussie age pension - once you qualify and are approved, then they cannot take it away from you (unless you come back to Aust).

 

In order to get the age pension now one has to prove that they are resident in Australia and intend to live in Australia (forever).  If you are living overseas and have done so for years .... NO.  If you  go back to Aust and then apply for the age pension and then go back overseas ....... NO.    

 

If you are refused due to being a non-resident, then you must go and live in Australia for 2 years (you will get the age pension while you do that) in order to prove that you intend to stay and live in Australia.  But if do that and are approved after 2 years, you can leave a month later and still get the age pension (less 20%) - go figure.

 

My advice to your mate is to go back and 'live' there for 2 years - and then leave and take the part-pension with him.  I reckon in a few years this option will be taken away, and he will no longer have that option   I understand that he can leave to go overseas in that 2 year period, but he will not be paid the pension while overseas, and the time he is overseas will be added to the 2 years 'probation' period. 

 

Personally, I am going back to live in Australia for a few years before I qualify for the pension, and then I will be back to LOS with the part-pension to top up my savings.  Having worked and paid taxes for over 40 years, it is something I am entitled to receive and am annoyed I must 'play games' to get what I am entitled to receive. 

 

https://www.humanservices.gov.au/customer/enablers/age-pension-while-travelling-outside-australia

 

I reckon they have illegally (Constitution and UN) denied people access to a pension that they are qualified to receive.  Where someone resides in the world should be irrelevent, unless they are a citizen of that country, or that country does not have full diplomatic acceptance in Australia. Certainly someone shouldn't get the full pension unless they worked and paid taxes for 40 years, and therefore the minimum should be 10 years (for 20%). And I also believe anyone who is not an Australian citizen and leaves to go live overseas, should not be able to get the age pension while overseas. But IMO as long as someone is and remains an Australian citizen and is able to qualify, then they should get the age pension no matter where they live. There is further case/argument to say that those living overseas are costing the Govt much less to support than those living in Aust (particularly health costs) and therefore it is a win win to 'alow' them to live overseas.  I would love it if any retired QC would be prepared to pro-bono take the case/argument to the High Court   Anyone ??

 

You should have read your link before typing, as you contradict the link several times!!!!!

Good luck anyway.

[Agent Sumo]

But georgemandm says Australia is such a great place to live

[Aussie69]

Your mates lucky to get a pension. I have paid huge taxes all my life, I have contributed much to my country, I have been responsible and saved and planned for my future; what do I get .... NOTHING. I must self fund my entire retirement, medical, etc.

[1337markus]

My Australian friend has retired here in Thailand, he is 66 years old, he has lived here the last 5 years, he has been refused a pension from the Australian government, they are telling him he has to live in Australia 2 full years before he is  eligible for his pension, he lived and worked in Australia for 43 years prior to him retiring, he had a telephone interview  this morning from Queensland 6.30 am 26/08/2016, he was told no chance, that is the law, he must come back and live in Australia for 2 years before he becomes eligible

Would like to hear from any Aussie expats on this matter, or anyone who has an opinion

 

 

Totally correct. I am much the same age lived here 10 years. Last time in Perth ( 2015) went to CentreLink who are the controlling body and everything you say is true. She also said its 2 years before you can apply after living in Australia and there is NO guarantee it will be approved. The pension is paid on a ratio of years worked in Australia and you have paid your ATO dues; example someone who works 30 years could get up to 100% pension; another who works 3 years maybe 5%.  Then the pension is 2 components; the second one is more about getting pensioner rates for travel and utilities in country when you fly out of Australia  it stops immediately ( no big deal). The money component was OK but now they also measure time overseas and there is a time that flags to stop the pension ( you need to check this she suggested 6 weeks) and on your return you are responsible to report and re activate it. So bottom line they have us snookered.

[dotpoom]

In my country if you qualify for a contributory pension (if you have enough stamps) you can live in any country and draw it.....If you have a state pension (not enough stamps) you have to live in the country to get it.

    I imagine your friend should qualify for a contributory pension seeing as he has worked for a continuous period of 43 years, after all, he did pay into it with his own money. You would imagine the conditions would be the same as back home.

[F4UCorsair]

3 hours ago, dhream said:

They're so nice the Aussie government. They own you.
They tax you to death. They never let you actually go.
Nevermind you're not a social burden to them here.
Never mind you've paid your dues already.
Nevermind you can't afford to go and live there for 2 years to get their dog food pension...
Nevermind the dollar is a joke.
I am disengaging from them, I will make my own luck, like I have done my entire life.
Theirs is not the only passport I have, I made sure of that too, while the going was easy, before the west got paranoid about a few idiot ragheads...


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Never mind that he never contributed to a personal pension fund and now expects the government to keep him for the rest of his life, on an increasing pension, never contributing another cent via GST, never contributing to keeping another Australian in a job through spending locally, because it will all be spent out of the country.

 

If it's a dog food pension, why would he be interested?

 

The rate of tax is high, but not as high as many countries, and how many countries will provide you with free medical services, hip replacement $25,000, heart surgery $60,000, etc.  My partner pays over $150,000 in tax a year, and the only benefit she will ever receive is medication for an ongoing serious condition that costs the taxpayer $3000 a month, and for which she pays $36.00 a month, but even a person paying NO tax is entitled.  My view on that is that the more one contributes, the more one is entitled to in government services.  If you contribute little, you receive little....what's unfair about that?

 

Japan is an advanced, civilized country, but when I was working there, one of my colleagues was telling me that every yen her family members generated went to keeping her  brother, who had cancer, alive, with no government assistance.

 

Your friend may not be a social burden on the Australian government right now, but how many TV members, by their own admissions here on these pages,  go back to their home countries in their old age for free/low cost medical services, after contributing nothing of their taxpayer funded pension for years in Thailand....too many.

 

Paying tax should not be an entitlement to a pension for life.  Tax receipts are for running the country, the costs of government.

 

I paid a LOT more tax than most during my working life, provided for myself, never drawn a cent in government funding, and will never be entitled to anything in my retirement.  Comparing with somebody who earned an average income, based on relative contributions, I should be entitled to a pension of $100,000 pa.

 

I find it offensive that people believe that because they paid tax they are entitled to a pension, dog food pension though it may be, for the rest of their lives.  It's conceivable that because somebody has worked in a menial job for a lifetime, paid little tax, and the effects of inflation, they will receive, via a pension, EVERY  cent they ever contributed in the first few years of retirement, and be kept by the next generation/s of taxpayers.

 

That is OFFENSIVE!!  It's why the treasurer has said the 'age of entitlement' is finished, as it should be.

 

1337markus, they have you snookered just as those drawing a pension and living overseas have future generations of taxpayers snookered.

 

[smotherb]

1 hour ago, Agent Sumo said:

But georgemandm says Australia is such a great place to live

 

 

It is, you just have to live there.

[F4UCorsair]

3 hours ago, manfredtillmann said:

the australian government are great mid - game goal post shifters!

when i migrated to oz in 81 as a non - assisted, self paying immigrant, just about every rule in place today governing pensions and superannuations did not exist.

 

 

 

Just as the goal posts have been shifted for self funded retirees, and the rules under which I retired have now been changed so that I must now pay a significant amount of tax on my earnings and capital gains.

 

Those rules won't affect the politicians on the old superannuation plans though, those who managed to get their snouts in the trough before about 2004.

[JimHuaHin]

I regret to say what your friend has been told, and what most of the other posts here have noted, is correct.  He can check the CentreLink webpage to see if the value of his current assets diallow him from getting the age pension, and how much of the pension he could potentially receive, if he goes back to Australia to live for 2 years.

 

While I am in partial agreement with F4UCorsair, I cannot totally agree.

 

Before I retired early and relocated here, I sold my house in Australia.  The money I received from the sale of the house made me ineligible for the age penion.  My savings and super pension are adequate, in my case.

 

Having said that, and here is my partial disagreement with F4UCorsair; I have many friends in Australia struggling to survive on the age pension.  They had low income jobs for most of their lives, some were lucky to purchase a modest dwelling during their working lives, some were not; and importantly, some were never required to contribute to a superannuanation scheme.  Should these people, who are say the bottom 10-20 percent income bracket, be disallowed the age pension?  That is why the pension is means tested.

 

The age of entitlement?  What do the world's religious texts tell about charity and helping those worse off than us?  Yes, the age of entitlement should be over for the politicians, for the Packers and Murdochs and Turnbulls, and those who have, say, over A$1 million in convertable assets.  But not for the hard working poorer Australians who built our great country.

 

 

F4UCorsair

[georgemandm]

15 minutes ago, smotherb said:

 

 

It is, you just have to live there.

It is you <deleted> , you have no idea what you are saying what the hell has a pension got to do with Australia not being a great place.

it is to stop people  routine the  System and it had been happening for the last 40 years.

so lean why it is like it before you get on here and bring me it to brain dead .

melbourne is the most  Livable city in the world.

[Old Croc]

10 minutes ago, F4UCorsair said:

 

 

Just as the goal posts have been shifted for self funded retirees, and the rules under which I retired have now been changed so that I must now pay a significant amount of tax on my earnings and capital gains.

 

Those rules won't affect the politicians on the old superannuation plans though, those who managed to get their snouts in the trough before about 2004.

I'm interested in your last sentence.  I'm not an ex politician, but an ex public servant on the old Comsuper scheme. What, or where, is the ruling about  excluding old, pre 2004, pigs from the new tax rules.

[GreasyFingers]

5 hours ago, JIMMY56 said:

Would like to hear from any Aussie expats on this matter, or anyone who has an opinion

 

As those above have said he will not get the pension while not being "an Australian resident". I had only lived part time here for 2 years and was refused. Three appeals (there is a fourth), refused a requested face to face hearing in Australia, similar time phone hearing as quoted. Born there, 45 years of paying taxes, and still do, and they do not care. My pension would have been minimal, maybe $50 per fortnight, but just wanted to get on the system before they changed the rules again.

 

I know of another Aussie that had been living here for 5 years, went back 6 months before turning 65, got the dole until then and was given a full pension at 65.

 

If anyone is in a similar situation get back there to show you are a "resident" on your 65th birthday.

[Clamhua]

Just another reason not to go back there...dumb ass Australia

[GreasyFingers]

In addition to the above I enquired at Centrelink 12 months before turning 65. Got a very good hearing at the local office, they telephined someone higher up, and the answer: "you will be alright mate"

[elgordo38]

4 hours ago, dhream said:

They're so nice the Aussie government. They own you.
They tax you to death. They never let you actually go.
Nevermind you're not a social burden to them here.
Never mind you've paid your dues already.
Nevermind you can't afford to go and live there for 2 years to get their dog food pension...
Nevermind the dollar is a joke.
I am disengaging from them, I will make my own luck, like I have done my entire life.
Theirs is not the only passport I have, I made sure of that too, while the going was easy, before the west got paranoid about a few idiot ragheads...


Sent from my HUAWEI MT7-TL10 using Tapatalk
 

Yes over my lifetime my country has done a number on me to. You can superimpose your statement onto most countries in the world and its the same thing. They lie to you over your working years telling you to save your money for your retirement and now the bank wants to give you nothing in the way of interest. The government lies to you when it comes to annual COLA increases. Yes we have paid our dues and then some. Yes it is a dog food pension when compared to what CEO's etc. make. The witch in the Mylan case who overcharge for their medical pens went from 2 million to 18 million in 9 years. A working man must work a lifetime pay taxes and he is lucky to make a million and a half in 40 years of hard labor. Its a crime aided and abetted by big government. For the sake of disclosure I am not an Auzzie but in the same boat.

[georgemandm]

You pay taxes to run the country not to get a pension.

you pay super to get money when you  retire and if you are not that smart to put your money in to super then you will get a hand out .

but the government do it like this because people have been ripping the  System off for years so that is why he will have to go back and sorry for your friend .

but people should not get on here and blame the Australia government for try to stop the ones who don't put in and take the money out after just 4 or 10 years of work in Australia.

[dundas]

Centrelink is an agency where I'm pretty sure senior executives get bonuses on their ability to reduce outlays. They  tend not to publicise policies that could impact on an applicant's eligibility or amount of pension; it's actually  in their interests that possible beneficiaries don't know. 

 

Maybe it's no surprise that I have found them opaque when it comes to giving out information. I prefer to google online and then double check by going into a Centrelink office and talking to them. 

 

They will ask questions, will listen to your answers, but won't necessarily tell you the consequences of your answers -- at least not straight away. 

 

On my last trip out of Australia I told Centrelink of my travel plans. I told them this in person but it was only a week later that I received a letter telling me that I would lose certain allowances after six weeks and my health care concession card would be cancelled. So I changed my trip from eight weeks to six weeks and one day, and notified them of that. I kept my allowances and my health care concession card (I don't think they cancelled it for one day). 

 

AFAIK the pension doesn't stop after six weeks; it's only the allowances that do, and the validity of the health care concession card. 

 

I'm very sorry when I hear of examples like the OP's. It's a classic example of one group of people (senior executives at Centrelink) getting rich at the expense of people who cannot afford to be ripped off, who have done nothing wrong, except not follow a cleverly crafted set of rules designed to cheat them of their entitlements. 

 

Centrelink is worse than most agencies -- you make a mistake, it's your problem. Centrelink makes a mistake, chances are it will become your problem. Fair enough, but the high tone of their moral pronouncements does get up my nose. They've very good at having chats with radio hosts about welfare fraud, but seldom own up to their own stuffs. 

 

My advice to anyone thinking about the Australian old age pension -- plan for it five years before you become eligible. Centrelink will look at financial transactions that far in arrears, and can penalise you for decisions you made way back then (e.g., gifts). It's worth paying for good advice, and keeping up to date as the politicians and bureaucrats change the rules. Yes, and especially read up on the rules that constitute "Australian residency," before AND after the date you become eligible for the pension. 

[dhream]

the australian government are great mid - game goal post shifters!

when i migrated to oz in 81 as a non - assisted, self paying immigrant, just about every rule in place today governing pensions and superannuations did not exist.

 

Yes, you are correct.
They stopped people taking their super home with them, hey, it's their money!
They stopped the UK reciprocal benefits, and everybody lost out, Brits and Aussies.
I guess they needed the money for giant Canberra flagpoles, Bronwyns private chopper rides and bribing Cambodia millions in 'aid' to take on TWO raghead asylum seekers.

Never mind the honest migrants who worked hard, fit in, and paid their dues.

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[maoro2013]

4 hours ago, yaagjon said:

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but your friend should have enquired about this before. It is correct I understand.

 

Your friend can go for holidays up to 6 weeks overseas whilst living in Australia during that two year period, I could be wrong, but I believe there is no limit to the amount of holidays.

 

4 hours ago, yaagjon said:

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but your friend should have enquired about this before. It is correct I understand.

 

Your friend can go for holidays up to 6 weeks overseas whilst living in Australia during that two year period, I could be wrong, but I believe there is no limit to the amount of holidays.

Yes should have known all this before. I am in  the same boat never thought that an Australian pension could be denied me given the hundreds of thousands of tax they managed to collect from me

 

I will collect the pension and it is possible to leave Australia for fairly extended periods certainly more than six weeks at which time a couple of subsidies are cut from the pen a ion payment.

 

The two year thing is totally absurd and has actually been overturned by tha Administrative Appeals Tribunal on a number of occasions although I  cannot find any references to these to enable me to evaluate the precedents.in my case a literal following of the rules would split up my family among other complications.

It also erks me that immigrants qualify for a full pension with far less working years than an Australian.

 

The whole thing sucks.

[dhream]

Why dont we do a class action, no win no fee deal, lets organise! We all hate the gov. Aussie and expat alike. Lets take the slugs on!

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[norbra]

If your friend is entitled to the aged pension,he will be paid this immediately on registering with Centrelink. He must have an Australian address and family living there to qualify.

He is then required to remain in Australia for 2 years,if he were to leave the country,even for a short holiday the 2 year count would start again on his return.On completionof this 2 years of residence he will have gained portability of pension status,the payments are subject to the number of years of working life (35 years for full pension) he had in Australia,

Hope this helps with concerns of waiting 2 years for the pension to be paid. 

[simple1]

Yes, your friend must return to Oz to apply for Age Pension and currently wait two years for portability to be granted.

 

There is some misinformation posted. There is not a requirement to have worked / paid personal taxes to claim Age Pension. The current requirement for full Age Pension is 35 year Working Life Residency from age 16 as well as meeting the residency & assets test. Should one travel overseas for more than six weeks you will receive your full pension entitlement, less any other welfare supplements. Immigration is linked to Centrelink, so Centrelink immediately knows when you depart and return, though it's advisable to electronically let  Centrelink know your travel dates.

 

Some additional detail below...

 

https://www.humanservices.gov.au/customer/services/centrelink/age-pension