Condo Transfer Fee Scam? PATTAYA

[djlest]

Hello

about 3 years ago i purchased a condo from OCEAN RESIDENTIAL PROPERTY PATTAYA for THE PALM which is located Naglua and built by NOVA Group.

After paying 1/3rd of the cost to OCEAN residential i noticed they turned the remaining payment over to NOVA Group, which i guessed was probably the actual cost that OCEAN made a deal for, then after making their cut they give the client over to the developer.

 

All contracts were fine and all payments agreed have been paid on time - however the condo is 10 months late but that seems to be the norm in Pattaya developments

 

However, now its time to sign the title deeds over - and i have just been sent and invoice with the agreed price for 32 sq meters and contact agreement

 

except now they have added an extra fee - PRICE FOR VARIATION AREA

 

apparently now my condo has been finished and the land office has re measured it and it is now 32.69 sq meters - so i have to pay an additional cost of 46,000 baht to NOVA group for this?

This is not other fees or transfer costs but purely because the condo is apparently bigger than 32 sq meters, its not an easy shape for me to measure or contest either. apparently its measured from the center with a theodolite.

 

im wondering if this sounds legitimate or is just a scam between Nova and the Land office?

 

Has anyone else experienced this?

 

i thought the contract was 32 sq meters and the price is final

 

please advise?

 

 

Edited August 30, 2016 by djlest

[Peterw42]

I have heard of it before, when you buy off the plan. There is usually a clause that says something like that. 

They must have used thinner bricks than originally planned.

[djlest]

the point being there is still the exact same amount of units in the building, therefore all the contracts and prices have already been agreed beforehand.

the final sale price was agreed beforehand for the Unit regardless of if when finished its 31 or 33. i cant imagine them giving refunds back if the unit is below 32 sq meters somehow.

 

[Delight]

 It all depends on your contract with the developer. If it states that you agree to pay for a condo with a designated room number at an agreed price -then that is what you pay and that is what you get.

If the  size was specified also -then that is a point of argument

 

I am 100% convinced that if you took such a   contract to court -then the judge with side with you

 

 Whats is in your contract?

Edited August 30, 2016 by Delight
added clarity

[djlest]

yes unfortunately if i dont complete the final payment in 25 days, and i guess they could include that as final payment then they can default on the sale and sell to someone else.

im digging out contracts to try and find that exact clause, so far i have not found it.

[Peterw42]

6 minutes ago, djlest said:

yes unfortunately if i dont complete the final payment in 25 days, and i guess they could include that as final payment then they can default on the sale and sell to someone else.

im digging out contracts to try and find that exact clause, so far i have not found it.

 

I have seen that "if the size ends up different "clause in off the plan condo contracts. But if it's not in the one you signed, you should be able to get out of it.

[HampiK]

Normaly the contract says, that the final payment will be calculated at the effective m2 measured noted in the chanote.

 

If your condo would be only 31.7 m2 then it would become cheaper. At least this is what happen to a neighbour of my condo.. His condo was little bit smaller than he was expecting.. my one is also 0.3 m2 bigger than actually planned. But it was somethin written in the contract. So no scam, as long you signed a contract with a price per m2.

 

This as someone below already mentioned only can happen if you buy before finished construction. You ever read your contract before signing?

[djlest]

yes because i bought it from a real estate agent - who in effect had already purchased it from the developer, or at least put a hold on it - they signed the contract on behalf of Ocean residential property. The contract was in effect signed by them and its huge.
Then i signed a smaller contact that just had an agreement on installments and the total unit price
Nowhere does it say i have to pay a set price based per square meter, no clause even mentions that if its bigger i pay more.
As far as i can see the agreement was for a 32sq meter unit and the price was fixed.
Even if it did say that in the Big con tract initially signed by the real estate agent, i never signed it so technically shouldnt apply to me either.

It was bought off plan but through a real estate agent who hiked up the price before passing me off to the developer to pay the remaining fee which worked out at 67k per square meter when in reality i paid almost 100k per sq meter.

[properperson]

I'm just trying to equate just how big 32m2 is...

 

Think this is about right:

[djlest]

yeah not far off - your average hotel room

[AsianExport]

5 minutes ago, properperson said:

I'm just trying to equate just how big 32m2 is...

 

Think this is about right:

 

 

 

Funny one ! hahahaha

 

I had the same idea :-)

 

 

 

[djlest]

thanks goodness it wasnt 27 sq meters which seem to be the new 32sq meters, i think 32 sq meters is fine for a weekend place by sea. certainly wont be living there full time.

[KittenKong]

In my experience it is entirely normal for the final price to be dictated by the measurement on the chanote. Only the official chanote measurement has any legal value anyway.

 

Size variations can be caused by many things and if one unit ends up a little bigger and more expensive then another one will probably be a little smaller and cheaper.

[wpcoe]

16 hours ago, Peterw42 said:

I have heard of it before, when you buy off the plan. There is usually a clause that says something like that. 

They must have used thinner bricks than originally planned.

 

Are measurements for area from the center of the walls, or from the interior surface of the walls?  I've often wondered that, and thought I'd pop the question in here.

[HampiK]

13 hours ago, djlest said:

yes because i bought it from a real estate agent - who in effect had already purchased it from the developer, or at least put a hold on it - they signed the contract on behalf of Ocean residential property. The contract was in effect signed by them and its huge.
Then i signed a smaller contact that just had an agreement on installments and the total unit price
Nowhere does it say i have to pay a set price based per square meter, no clause even mentions that if its bigger i pay more.
As far as i can see the agreement was for a 32sq meter unit and the price was fixed.
Even if it did say that in the Big con tract initially signed by the real estate agent, i never signed it so technically shouldnt apply to me either.

It was bought off plan but through a real estate agent who hiked up the price before passing me off to the developer to pay the remaining fee which worked out at 67k per square meter when in reality i paid almost 100k per sq meter.

In this case I would assume, the difference should be paid by the real estate agent, but probably it will not be that easy... but in my normal thinking that would be the solution!

 

But at the end, I hope you like your condo and that you are happy with it.

[djlest]

Thanks for the replies, it just seems rather suspicious to me that condos can be sold per UNIT with a FINAL PRICE stipulated. and certainlt no mention that it would cost me more if the developer basically screws up the design meaning i get an extra Inch circumference. And who is to say that it really is .59 meters bigger? if i go there with a tape measure and find it is not, it just seems to be a common scam the land office in cahoots with developers have to make a lot more money. Ive asked around and no one ever said they had units that were smaller than the 32sq meters. so if they are infact smaller im guessing they dont get told otherwise developers would have to refund them.

All in all the costs of buying condos off plan have not been a good experience for us... Not only is the money tied up for 3 years when it could be in a bank earning interest. The projects are almost always 1 year late so thats 4 years... then you get land office scam at the end...

I would buy second hand condos in the future, there is very little money to be made buying offplan... esp in Pattaya unless you buy in Wongamat which has the highest price per sq meter currently and you can buy for 50k per sq meter. then you may stand a chance... 

[KittenKong]

44 minutes ago, djlest said:

And who is to say that it really is .59 meters bigger?

 

The chanote is definitive. If you think it is wrong you can get the LO to come out and check it all (for which there will probably be some charge), but in the end what they say is gospel.

[david555]

On ‎8‎/‎31‎/‎2016 at 10:58 AM, wpcoe said:

 

Are measurements for area from the center of the walls, or from the interior surface of the walls?  I've often wondered that, and thought I'd pop the question in here.

In Thailand they use the expression "Build on M" , so calculated the walls with neighbor for half( i think) , the part where your water meter & \ pipes are also counted , so example a 45 m2 gives you never a full inside sqm of 45 m2, and I can think that only by total finish the correct surface becomes calculated ...

Be happy , your condo became more  spacious now (lol)

[HampiK]

On ‎01‎.‎09‎.‎2016 at 8:32 AM, djlest said:

All in all the costs of buying condos off plan have not been a good experience for us... Not only is the money tied up for 3 years when it could be in a bank earning interest. The projects are almost always 1 year late so thats 4 years... then you get land office scam at the end...

 

Mean you have paid the whole price of the condo in advanced? this would be indeed not very good, because a big risk.

I would never accept to paid more than about 5-10% before they building is finished. And most condos which I checked you have to pay in that range. But I also have looked a few, where they expect to pay while the building is ongoing to almost 50%, which I never would accept.. and let buildings like this to other persons to buy.

[lkn]

There is a standardized sales contract that provides consumer-protection (O.C. 22) and I’m almost certain that this includes the clause that any difference in size should result in a similar change in price. Afterall, without this clause, the developer could have built a 26 sqm. unit without the need to compensate you.

 

My condo ended up smaller and I got a price reduction. My condo was also delayed like yours, so I also got interests, which is guaranteed by the standard sales contract, so you should be entitled to this as well.

 

Not having read the sales contract is not going to help you fight this.

 

Have you read the contract you signed with OCEAN? I am sure it states that terms and conditions of the original sales contract have been transferred to you.

 

[djlest]

yes i have reviewed the contract, i have only paid half currently but if i dont pay the full amount in the next 2 weeks they threaten to end the contract.
The contract does actually say that if unit is bigger or smaller then the price is per 63,000 baht per meter, cleverly worded ofcourse so its not so obvious.

I found it interesting however that you mentioned interest for delayed build, i have been searching for any of these clauses in the contract but cannot find them. i have 2 condos now almost 1 year late finishing and whilst it says that if i am late making a payment they can claim 7% interest from me. i have yet to see a contract that gives the buyer and equal rights...
 

[Briggsy]

Feel free to negotiate before signing the contract.

[djlest]

oh i did i negotiate but they insisted this is the standard contract and they cant change it. everyone has the same contract. the only thing i got them to add was a free 42 inch TV into the mix...

[Briggsy]

Feel free to walk away (plenty of completed condos for sale) or hold off till completion. Of course this is backward-looking advice which is of no use to you now. Unless of course you are planning some more condo purchases.

 

Also bear in mind the sales office people have very little room to manoeuvre. The contracts will be written by a legal department. If you could get to the people who have the power to change the contract, say by buying 10 units, then you would have more leverage. Of course that might in turn attract unwanted attention from, say corrupt officials.

[kimmy]

2 hours ago, djlest said:

oh i did i negotiate but they insisted this is the standard contract and they cant change it. everyone has the same contract. the only thing i got them to add was a free 42 inch TV into the mix...

 

The thing is that a developer must submit their sales contract for approval before they get their full license. The approved contract is aimed to protect you as the buyer. The contract must comply with consumer protection laws.  This clause is negotiable but the sales department would generally say it is not. Often the size of the condo is not exact what you signed for based on the plans. That is just how it is with building. It could also be in your benefit, but when it is smaller it is often difficult get the price adjusted in your benefit. If it is larger you must pay, you signed for it. 
A small increase would maybe be reasonable to expect. A limit to the increase could be negotiated in the contract. It should not be your risk as a buyer. Someone with experience could have explained this to you. Now you are confronted with this issue of the extra payment, but it is not a scam, it is common.
 

[djlest]

Thanks again for the reply - the thing is i ave since returned back and measured the unit. ive also asked them to supply me with NEW dimensions for the unit proving that its actually bigger. strangely enough they dont have any NEW drawings and are saying its the land office that did the remeasure not the condo... Now it wouldnt suprise me if a deal could lets say be struck with land offices between developers to inflate condos sizes just a smidge making it difficult to measure as its basically only 1cm of the external diameter. Ofcourse a few of you are saying that they had builds that were actually smaller, so i could just over thinking here, but this is Pattaya and laws hardly seem above money.

[kimmy]

9 minutes ago, djlest said:

Thanks again for the reply - the thing is i ave since returned back and measured the unit. ive also asked them to supply me with NEW dimensions for the unit proving that its actually bigger. strangely enough they dont have any NEW drawings and are saying its the land office that did the remeasure not the condo... Now it wouldnt suprise me if a deal could lets say be struck with land offices between developers to inflate condos sizes just a smidge making it difficult to measure as its basically only 1cm of the external diameter. Ofcourse a few of you are saying that they had builds that were actually smaller, so i could just over thinking here, but this is Pattaya and laws hardly seem above money.

 

Could be certainly, but I don’t think so. Internal walls between the units are half part of your unit, others like outside walls belong to the joint ownership. It is not like you measure from wall to wall to get the exact unit size.

[kimmy]

16 minutes ago, kimmy said:

 

Could be certainly, but I don’t think so. Internal walls between the units are half part of your unit, others like outside walls belong to the joint ownership. It is not like you measure from wall to wall to get the exact unit size.

 

The land office get their bribes from the developer, the unit measurments are usually correct. It is unlikely they measured your unit wrong.

[HampiK]

1 hour ago, djlest said:

Thanks again for the reply - the thing is i ave since returned back and measured the unit. ive also asked them to supply me with NEW dimensions for the unit proving that its actually bigger. strangely enough they dont have any NEW drawings and are saying its the land office that did the remeasure not the condo... Now it wouldnt suprise me if a deal could lets say be struck with land offices between developers to inflate condos sizes just a smidge making it difficult to measure as its basically only 1cm of the external diameter. Ofcourse a few of you are saying that they had builds that were actually smaller, so i could just over thinking here, but this is Pattaya and laws hardly seem above money.

 

In the Chanote you can see the exact measurement. Of the Condo, see below. This is how a chanote (I know the name is actually different but most people use this word) for a condo looks like. Including the exact measurements.

As you can see, the walls inside the condo are also included. Except some main parts, which are essential for construction. But I not sure, if you can have the measurements before the payment at the landoffice.

 

[djlest]

Thanks everyone for your replies
I have indeed been shown the NEW sized walls and im quite shocked to be honest - infact this is the reply i got...

So am i correct to think that we are actually paying for half of the concrete bricks that separate each unit from the next? 
Its hardly going to be internal walls because i have a studio complex with no internal rooms except the bathroom.

Dear Sir

 

Firstly I would like to apologized for the unsatisfactory things that happen. For the Square that over, Land Office staff they didn't measure from wall to wall, but they measure from the middle of the bricks sir. Please see attached files for the Land Title Deeds of your 2 Units sir.

 

About every comments,I will pass this to my management team for your comments sir.

 

Best Regards,