Looking for advice concerning Thai Children / Parental Debt

[fauxrang]

I hope this doesn't belong in the 'Law' section - my question does start out with a question about Thai Law... but has a lot more detail.

 

Short question:

Are Thai children responsible for their parents debt?

 

Long question, given the following scenario:

A Thai girl tells you that her father has, years ago, taken out a bank loan for around 3m baht. He wanted to start a business. The business failed. The father is also very ill, and could potentially die soon. The father (and mother) own a house/property that is worth maybe... 1m baht.

This Thai girl, and her sibling, have reasonably nice jobs - they are both in their early 20s, and make 20k+ baht, each. This Thai girl tells you that her and her sibling, are sending money to their parents each month, and in a recent month, had to come up with a bunch of money to send, because their father needed to make a payment on that debt.

 

So my question is - Should the Thai girl and her sibling care about this bank loan/debt? At all? Should they bother paying anything? I assume the answer to the short question, is that - No, Thai children are not responsible for their parents debt. If that is true - if all that the bank can possibly do, is take the land, worth 1m baht, from the family - why should two 20-somethings, trying to have their own life, bother paying (as if they could possibly pay it...) 3m baht - just to preserve a 1m baht property?

 

Am I missing anything? Can the bank do anything else? Can they go after the children(s) assets?

[CharlieH]

Depends if the property was used as collateral, and I suspect, the children dont want their parents to lose their family home, as ultimately if that happened someone then has to take them in too. There is also the "losing face" in the community, that plays a role too.

 

The short answer: depends on the circumstances and details of the loan.(who else signed it etc)

[fauxrang]

OK - saving face, sure.

 

But from a strictly financial stand point... if the debt is only the father's debt - why would 2 children, who are trying to pay their own rent, and buy food, and do whatever young people want to do - be worried about their sick/old father's bank debt?

The children do not live in the house. They are in cities, working.

 

IE - if they pay 10k a month, into this debt, for the next 2 years - and then their father dies... what was the point? Have they not just wasted 240k? IE - if the bank comes and takes the house, and that's the end of the story - what does it matter (to the children) whether the father owed 3m, or 2.75m, or 2.5m?

 

Plainly put - why should these children spend their entire life attempting to pay this debt, when they could be putting this money to their + their future/hypothetical family/children's future?

[CharlieH]

Plainly put, you are looking at it through "western" eyes, not Asian, in this case Thai.

 

You are applying what could be said as good logic etc, but that doesnt (seldom) works with Thai families and their relationships.

[blackcab]

2 hours ago, fauxrang said:

Plainly put - why should these children spend their entire life attempting to pay this debt, when they could be putting this money to their + their future/hypothetical family/children's future?

 

It's called Thainess. You will learn more about it the longer you spend in Thailand.

[Gracas]

Did the father go through the full 3M Thb with no cash left and no assets after the business failed ?

What type of business was this that consumed all.

What did he use to establish the loan in the first place ? Don't think he received 3M by walking in and asking for it.

OP you are correct the children should walk away (if they have not co-signed) BUT this is not the Thai way the children are always getting the parents out of a hole.

[fauxrang]

I don't know how he got the loan - not really my business. And I don't really want to comment on what kind of business (specifically) - but it did involve the purchasing of vehicles and equipment, and materials to build. I believe the business was 'profitable' for some amt of time (a few years?).

 

I fudged the numbers a bit - maybe they only owe 2.5, or 2. Or even 3.5. Regardless, it is significantly more than the value of their seizable assets - which, to me, made the choice... clear.

[fauxrang]

To be clear, the girl was being coy (and even embarrassed) on the amt owed, so she was not specific. But I am sure it was more than 2m.

[noise]

9 hours ago, CharlieH said:

Plainly put, you are looking at it through "western" eyes, not Asian, in this case Thai.

 

You are applying what could be said as good logic etc, but that doesnt (seldom) works with Thai families and their relationships.

 

They way Fauxrang wrote the description of what is happening is typical of what happens all around the world, not just in Thailand.   Children from loving families will always try to help their parents in need to the extent they can.

 

In this case, the woman and her sibling can afford to help and were even able to able to come up with an extra amount to service the load.  They sound quite financial astute and responsible to me.

 

If you think western logics says DON'T, then, for example,  explain why do so many western children pay out of their own pockets when parents are senile and have to go live in a nursing home?  

[MikeyIdea]

Of course the now adult children will try to help their father in Thailand. Anything else would be a bad person.

 

They would actually pay what they can even if they know that the monthly installments are so high that it will only delay confiscation of assets. To not do it would simply look too bad also in that case

 

Rich city Thai's can act differently if they are selfish

[bark]

Great Story. Sounds like you are the BF of the Thai girl; and her sending money to her parents is bothering you.

 

Maybe this will help you understand Thailand.

One of my staff, borrowed money for her education. She was paying back at a fast rate. I asked her why not

just make the minimum payment; as the loan had a very low rate. Pay less and enjoy your life. Going out with

friends, dinners etc.

She told me her father said to her. " Pay back the loan; as soon as possible; so that this money can help other

poor students to borrow and go to university.

Time to learn about Thai culture. Some is good and some not so much.

But you need to understand it. Which is clear to everyone on Thai Visa; that you do not.

[rct99q]

My wife being the only daughter in the family has the responsibility of looking after the parents in their old age. Lonnnng time ago this was brought up by my wife (prior to us getting married) letting me know this is how it was going to be. she wanted me to know the situation prior to me making the commitment. The two brothers are not under the same responsibility as they have left the family home to raise their own families albeit they still send money home to help out. The flip side is that when the parents pass on my wife inherits the land (is already in her name) and house for the next generation to live in and on.

 

Is it the Thai girls responsibility, no. But I believe we all have a "debt" to pay rightly or wrongly. As for me my parents are both dead but my wife made no bones about it that we would help look after both sets of parents if that was to be the case. She has traveled to North America to help her father in law (my father) when he was sick and I was working. To say I would turn my back on my in-laws, even if it was something terrible like a bad loan or whatever, it would be almost impossible for me to look into my wifes eyes and say no. 

 

Call me a sucker or whatever but I owed it to my parents to help them just as I feel I would help my wifes parents. 

[rct99q]

Sorry meandered a bit there. To answer your original question, NO. The banks etc have no recourse in going after family members for outstanding debts, unless they co-signed a loan or are in some way listed on the original loan applications. Any assets listed to garner the loan are fair game for banks. 

If the loan was made unofficially by money lenders or local village money managers that is another matter all together. 

[SOUTHERNSTAR]

Blood is thicker than water, comes to mind.

[meatboy]

i think the op needs to find out from the bank how they lent him 3million bht.with only 1million security.

just a little reminder about thainess,where there's females involved regarding MONEY tread carefully.

[fauxrang]

Quote

 my wife made no bones about it that we would help look after both sets of parents

Quote

Of course the now adult children will try to help their father in Thailand. Anything else would be a bad person.

 

There is a difference between:

 

 - helping her parents - ie, paying for her parents rent/food.

and

 - paying 3m to preserve 1m baht of assets... oh, and to 'save face'

 

 

Quote

In this case, the woman and her sibling can afford to help and were even able to able to come up with an extra amount to service the load.  They sound quite financial astute and responsible to me.

 

Let's say her and her sibling were able to come up with 10k per month, to put towards this debt (and this is probably terribly unrealistic, as well as unfair). It would take them about **30 years** to pay off this debt, for no other reason than allowing their father (who will be looong dead by that point) to save face? That's your angle? It's financially 'astute' to pay 3m (of someone *else's* debt) to preserve 1m baht of assets? You sure?

 

Not to mention, within a few years, these girls will be having children/families of their own. But it's still 'astute' and 'responsible' to be needlessly paying her parent's debt? You sure? You wanna think this through a little more?

 

 

Quote

Time to learn about Thai culture. Some is good and some not so much.

But you need to understand it. Which is clear to everyone on Thai Visa; that you do not

 

Wow - it is clear to *everyone* on Thai Visa that I don't get it? I think I get it just fine :). The point of the thread to clear up whether the kids had any *actual* responsibility to pay this debt, or whether it is all in their minds. I think I know the answer.

 

I understand that it is Thai culture to help your parents.

 

What I am saying - is it is entirely reasonable, given the scenario I have laid out, that Thai children can, both, *help their parents*, and *ignore the 3m baht debt*, at the same time.

 

[fauxrang]

For the people saying, 'this is the Thai way'... let me pose this question to you:

 

Which one makes more sense:

A. The children spend their entire lives, slowing paying up 3m baht to pay off their parents debt, so their parents (who will be dead) can keep a 1m baht home.

B. The children save up 1m baht, and buy a new 1m baht home.

 

Bueller...?

[MikeyIdea]

22 minutes ago, fauxrang said:

For the people saying, 'this is the Thai way'... let me pose this question to you:

 

Which one makes more sense:

A. The children spend their entire lives, slowing paying up 3m baht to pay off their parents debt, so their parents (who will be dead) can keep a 1m baht home.

B. The children save up 1m baht, and buy a new 1m baht home.

 

Bueller...?

 

That depends on your core values

 

Thai values includes trying to avoid having the family and especially parents losing face, it includes not wanting to see their parents and the family being thrown out of their home where they were born

 

If a westerner has the same core values then option A of course, otherwise option B

[1FinickyOne]

15 hours ago, fauxrang said:

OK - saving face, sure.

 

But from a strictly financial stand point... if the debt is only the father's debt - why would 2 children, who are trying to pay their own rent, and buy food, and do whatever young people want to do - be worried about their sick/old father's bank debt?

The children do not live in the house. They are in cities, working.

 

IE - if they pay 10k a month, into this debt, for the next 2 years - and then their father dies... what was the point? Have they not just wasted 240k? IE - if the bank comes and takes the house, and that's the end of the story - what does it matter (to the children) whether the father owed 3m, or 2.75m, or 2.5m?

 

Plainly put - why should these children spend their entire life attempting to pay this debt, when they could be putting this money to their + their future/hypothetical family/children's future?

 

Because it is their father w/o whom they would not exist. This is called loyalty. I don't think they are concerned about what makes more sense to you - - as it is clearly their money, give them some credit for doing what makes sense to them. 

 

My guess is that you likely do not know the full story. Who do they owe this money to? Is some of it to a loan shark that they might have been embarrassed to tell you about? They might also omit many details just because they do not feel like talking about it... 

 

When you choose to live in another culture, you will frequently find things that are not customary to your culture. Not fitting into your framework of logic, does not make their framework wrong. 

 

Since you have some Western logic on your side, I would pose these questions, kindly and w/o judgment to your wife. When done non-judgmentally, I have seen my wife understand and adopt my ways and I have also found that there were times when her actions made sense when I had more facts... good luck. 

[nickcar]

My understanding is that when the father dies, his family are responsible for outstanding debts. This knowledge comes from the experience of a friend but i do not know if the family actually guaranteed the money or any thing extra that might make them responsible but my guess is not. I also understand that the children have a moral responsibility to support their parents, and remember the tamily home has more than just a monetory value. 

[Scott]

Off-topic post and replies removed. 

[greenchair]

I can't imagine the bank would give a 3 million baht loan with only 1 million baht land security. 

There must be a guarantor somewhere. The numbers don't add. Please reinvestigate and get back to us.

[offset]

I also think that the children in Thailand have a legal responsibility to look after there parents that also means keeping a roof over there heads so paying the loan while the parents are alive will be part of this