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Trial of SS medic who served at Auschwitz begins in Germany


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On 9/13/2016 at 7:32 AM, Ulysses G. said:

 

There is usually no statute of limitations for MURDER and there shouldn't be. This old Nazi deserves no mercy.

Germany had a statute of limitation (30 years). it was changed retroactively in 1979 (no limitation). an act that violates international law.

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22 minutes ago, Naam said:

Germany had a statute of limitation (30 years). it was changed retroactively in 1979 (no limitation). an act that violates international law.

 

The original post-war West German Statute of Limitations originally was originally going to expire in 1965, but in 1965 that deadline was extended to 1969. It was then further extended to 1979 at which point the statute was dropped in connection with war crimes which was the issue all along as old Nazis continued to be unearthed. The suggestion that a statute of limitations should remain in place vis a vis war crimes and that that action offends international law is bogus.

 

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On ‎9‎/‎12‎/‎2016 at 6:21 PM, car720 said:

Hitler killed 6  million whilst Mao killed 45 million yet we seldom hear a word about this.  The Chinese people have moved on.

Just saying...................perhaps it is time the rest of the world also moved on.

 

Also I cannot help wonder what profession the prosecutors will pursue when all the nazis are gone.

 

BTW, genius, Hitler killed 6 million just in the camps.  An estimated 60 million died in his war (about 3% of the world's population at the time).  And that doesn't count the tens of millions more who were wounded & injured, the anguish & suffering of their survivors, and those displaced and rendered refugees by it.

 

Go ahead and enjoy your, emm, "movement".  Hopefully the rest of the world will remember and continue to learn from one of its worst nightmares.

 

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On ‎9‎/‎12‎/‎2016 at 6:21 PM, car720 said:

Hitler killed 6  million whilst Mao killed 45 million yet we seldom hear a word about this.  The Chinese people have moved on.

Just saying...................perhaps it is time the rest of the world also moved on.

 

Also I cannot help wonder what profession the prosecutors will pursue when all the nazis are gone.

 

BTW, genius, Hitler killed 6 million just in the camps.  An estimated 60 million died in his war (about 3% of the world's population at the time).  And that doesn't count the tens of millions more who were wounded & injured, the anguish & suffering of their survivors, and those displaced and rendered refugees by it.

 

Go ahead and enjoy your, emm, "movement".  Hopefully the rest of the world will remember and continue to learn from one of its worst nightmares.

 

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13 hours ago, Morch said:

 

There are still witnesses around. Not for many years though. Some his age, some younger. They deserve to be heard as well. One of the issues with this trial, I think, was judge decisions regarding calling forth witnesses. The "Big Players" would have been somewhat older than this guy, hence all gone.

 

The accused acknowledged the allegations, so dunno about him having memory issues. Guess these sort of things don't go away so easy, whatever side one was one. The "just following orders" defense is not readily acceptable in most cases. At best, it can mitigate sentencing. IMO, the locus of the trial is not necessarily the punishment, but the acknowledgment of wrongdoing and re-telling of testimonies. But guess some survivors may see it otherwise.

 

 

Since most kids were taken straight to the Gas Chamber when they got off the train, not many would have survived the Concentration Camp. Unless of course Twins, which even then this number would be very low. Since this took place over 71 years ago then who ever the witness is he would have to be close to 90 years old by now, at least. 

 

The accused understood that he was being charged for a crime. That doesn't mean he understood why he was charged or what he did to deserve this charge.

 

I honestly don't know what it is like to try and remember back 71 years ago if I was 95 years old. Do you? All I can say is that many people his age can''t remember the name of their wife of 60 years, or there own kids names or faces, so if they can forget that then they can forget anything, 

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13 hours ago, Morch said:

 

He was a member of the Hitler Youth, and volunteered for service in the SS. 

Doubt that claims of following orders (with or without enthusiasm) could absolve him. 

Hitler Youth Party? That started back in 1922 but really took off from the years 1933 to 1945. Long before the war. It was outlawed in 1945 as it was considered Racist, which it was, but so where the times in Germany then to. 

 

Joining that in Germany then is no worst than your son or daughter joining Army Cadets, or Sea and Air Cadets now. They learnt some skills and discipline, played sports, and got to go on summer camps and trips. They were taught Racism, but I don't know how much choice a child had back then anyway.

 

But by then hatred for the Jews was well underway and if you didn't learn it at the Hitler Youth, you would learn it at home. I do know that the Russians forced Polish Kids to learn Russian in school, and sing Communist Songs, but that didn't make them Communists either. They just did what they were told to do to stay out of trouble.  

 

You didn't really volunteer for service in the SS, although I am sure many tried to do this, as the SS was the Elite Group, and far superior over anything group in the army. Only the best could be in the SS so only the best were selected to join. It would have been a common goal for most German Men who were entering the army, to be selected by them. Being in the SS didn't make you an automatic murderer. Many worked in Offices and as Doctors to. For many it was just a way to get a better job. 

 

Yes, he was in the SS, but as a Medic his power was very limited. He wouldn't even treat Concentration Camp Prisoners, as they have there own Jewish Doctors and Nurses for that. It would have been far below his pay scale to treat a Jewish Prisoner. So at the Camp he main duties was that of a Male Nurse to the German Soldiers and Officers, and their Families.

 

However, as a Medic he may have been called upon on standby duty to attend some of the gassing. They were after all working with Dangerous Chemical Weapons, and they may have been needed there on standby in case one of the German Solders or Officers got hurt. But I am sure he did not decide when and how to do this, and who lived or died, or anything else like that. He was there for the Guards Safety only.  

 

Yes, it can be argued he had a choice, which I don't know is true or not. I suppose he could have given up his cushy job with a warm bed and 3 meals a day in the Concentration Camp. In which he did not have to pull the trigger or decides who lives or dies. Then after that, being replaced and sent to the Russian Front, where many German Solders were dying like flies, with many from hunger and freezing to death. As no doubt they needed all the Medics they could find then.

 

But if you call that a choice then it sure isn't much of one to make for anyone.    

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12 hours ago, Naam said:

Germany had a statute of limitation (30 years). it was changed retroactively in 1979 (no limitation). an act that violates international law.

 

I am not surprised you would attempt a defense of this SS volunteer.   Your comment fails to mention that the statute of limitations  on Nazi era war crimes, with the exception of murder was indeed 1968.   Why not provide the full historical record? Pertinent facts like;

- Despite the removal of some key Nazi jurists following the war,  many of the  nazi appointed jurists who had been relieved of their  duties by the allies between 1945 and 1950, were back at work by 1951.

- The allied occupation only dealt with the most egregious of Nazi era laws. Many of the legal practices that were common during the nazi era continued.

- The undeniable fact is that Germany intentionally avoided bringing many of its nazis to trial during the 1950-1970 period. There was an intentional cover up at the political leadership level and the clock was intentionally run out.  Your generation in particular  didn't want to know about the nazis or hear about what they did. That changed when people born after 1960 learnt about their history and were disgusted by the nazi era and the generation born in 1930-1959 who denied what occurred, and who  covered up the  crimes. Unlike your generation, younger Germans didn't want the blood money either. 

 

 

Edited by geriatrickid
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On 13/9/2559 at 6:54 PM, Scotwight said:

There were simply too many Japanese war crimes to investigate; incriminating records had been deliberately destroyed; investigators had to rely on hostile Japanese police and government officials to locate suspects and witnesses; and there were too few investigators and prosecutors. When the United States decided in 1948 to halt the war crimes prosecutions, some of Japan's worst war criminals were able to emerge from hiding and escape justice.

 

The decision to halt the prosecutions was entirely based on political expediency. It had nothing to do with issues of legality, morality, or humanity.

 

Unlike Germany where intensive de-Nazification procedures were employed to prevent former Nazis entering parliament and the bureaucracy, the United States allowed Japanese war criminals to enter parliament and find employment in the government bureaucracy. 

 

It has been estimated by the US Justice Department's Office of Special Investigations that at least several thousand Japanese escaped prosecution as a result of the premature termination of war crime prosecutions by the United States in 1949.

http://www.pacificwar.org.au/JapWarCrimes/USWarCrime_Coverup.html

 

 

Good Point and Good Post!

 

It might be worth mentioning that many of these Nazi Hunters were Jewish themselves and including the Jewish Secret Police "Mossad", which is the equivalent to CIA in the US. There were war crimes committed by the Japanese on American Solders, and many of the big ones were tried in Japan.

 

Interesting to note that some 2,200 Trials took place outside of Japan where some 5,600 Japanese were convicted. Perhaps the greatest war crimes were committed against the Chinese, who did not presume much action after the war. Perhaps because they were in another war already and fighting for Communism then. 

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1 hour ago, Naam said:

not 3,380 or 3,682 but precisely 3,381 counts a thorough investigation shows after ~70 years :coffee1:

 

Are you devoid of any semblance of  a moral compass, or is your hatred of juden so intense that you mock the verified record? Seriously. Don't pretend you don't know where the numbers  come from.

 

The number of deaths is for the period of 15 August - 14 September, 1944. The number is precise because the Germans kept meticulous records of everything. They also  kept records of ages and gender and how much gold was extracted from the inmates' mouths when their dental work was ripped out using pliers. They collected the clothes and shoes and kept records of that as well. Ages and genders were compiled too. The German murder(s) left a very detailed record of their crimes against humanity.

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On 13/9/2559 at 3:55 PM, GarryP said:

I just wonder how many of the rank and file would dare to refuse to follow orders, whether that be turning on the gas taps, forcing people into cages, or assisting with conducting inhumane experiments on prisoners, if the result would be locking up in the same conditions as the prisoners, hard labour or even death.  

 

What many of the lower ranks did was most definitely wrong even though they were following orders, but how many of the posters here or people trying the cases would have done exactly the same in those conditions.  People commit atrocities when the conditions give them little option. 

 

However, I hope what happened remains a lesson for many generations to learn from so that those kind of conditions are never allowed to return.  These trials keep it in the public eye which cannot be bad.

 

In any case, I cannot comprehend how they could do what they did. It seems so horrendous so evil beyond belief. I just hope that if I were in the same position I would dare to refuse to follow orders, but somehow I doubt it.   

Good Point! 

 

If it comes to having a secure and safe job with a warm bed and 3 hot meals a day in a Concentration Camp, or refusing the Commanding Officer, and then being sent to the Russian Front, where you risk life and limb daily, or freezing to death, what does one choose?

 

If you are not a major player I would guess most people would choose to stay and follow orders, even if they hated this job and doing what they were doing. Most Germans were horrified to find out after the war ended what was really going on in these Concentration Camps. But was it more keeping a blind eye and not wanted to know and not asking questions that could get them in trouble?

 

So shall we all hunt them down also and put them on trial to? Seems to me that if you know or suspect a crime is taking place, and you don't tell anyone about that, you can be Tried for being an Accessory. Hum? 

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14 hours ago, Morch said:

 

Wild fantasies are not a perspective.

 

What was the point of raising a question with regard to how emphatically he followed orders, then? You'd simply pull the brainwashed kid card.

 

Ok, he was a child. He's innocent. In fact, he's a victim as well. :coffee1:

Exactly right! He was in fact brainwashed as a Kid and caught up in some fantasy that Germany should rule the world. That all the problems in the world were caused by the Jews. 

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On 13/09/2016 at 11:08 AM, Pakboong said:

I'm a bit curious as to how the prosecution came up with the number 3,681. Most of us know that the Germans are in general accurate records keepers and their records for that period were recovered from the Soviet archives after the wall came down in the early 90s.

 

German records recovered from the Soviets indicate 63,394 Jews arrived in Auschwitz in 1944  and 99,888 were transferred out to include the entire Frank family also mentioned in the OP.

 

killed by typhus in 1944:   11,307 (45,189) for the 5 years of major operation of the camp

 

Killed by medical issues other than typhus: 1,357  (4,140 total for the same 5 years)

 

There were 1.646 inmates  executed during this same 5 year period. 1,485 Poles, 117 Jews, 19 Russians, 5 Czechs and 20 Gypsies.

 

German records regarding Hungarian Jews transfered in during 1944 at 23,117 and 21,527 were transferred out leaving 1,590 in the camp after October 1944. 

 

The count for Hungarian Jews being transferred in if taken from Lucy Dawidowicz,s "The War Against the Jews" (New York 1975) was 450,000 and the number indicated n Raul Hilburg's "The Destruction of the European Jews,"( New York 1985) is 180,000. It goes without saying that there is a huge difference in these numbers that need explanation. We know that the original plaque placed on the Auschwitz entrance was that 4 million died. In the early 90s, the number was revised to 1.5 million. The million dollar question is why was the number revised to 1.5 million?

 

I am not German but I am at peace with the German record for Hungarian Jews transferred in being 23,117. It is a no-brainer that world Jewry would rather use the Lucy Dawidowicz's 450,000.

 

It looks like the number this Nazi is charged with was some how extracted from the Hungarian Jews of 1944.

The total number of Non-Jews in Auschwitz, 1940 to 1944 was indicated at 161,785.

 

It seldom gets a mention that over 40,000 of the inmates died after the camps were liberated

It's true that there are major discrepancies in the numbers, also seems quite a few may have been worked to death rather than executed. However it still doesn't change that it was all a war crime and hell on earth for the victims.

 

I don't have a problem is pursuing old war criminals, it just saddens me the same enthusiasm can't be found for other war crimes rather than just those against the Jews. Civilians are still to this day regularly targeted, is that not a war crime, or what about starving countless children to death under sanctions, how is that not a war crime? Burning women alive in cages doesn't even rank in the media let alone be called the atrocity that it is, no one is pursuing those perpetrators.

 

We are very selective about war crimes, it appears they only ever are committed by those we are in conflict with, too many get a free pass.

 

 

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52 minutes ago, Ulysses G. said:

 

Baloney. No one taught my son to wipe out a whole race. Making excuses for Nazis is a dirty business.

Well at my Army Cadet Training they taught us how to March, Stand at Attention and at Ease, Salute, how to shoot a Rifle and Machine Gun, how to ride in a Tank and fire it, how to throw Hand Grenades and at anyone considered to be the enemy. Are you sure your son didn't end up in Girl Guilds instead of Cadets by mistake?

 

Although I agree we were not taught to be Racist in Army Cadets. We were simply taught to shoot and kill anyone who was not our friend. So skin color or their religion or ethnic background didn't matter to us at all, as we were taught to killed anyone of them who were not on our side. Do you see a big difference here? 

 

Nobody is making excuses for the Nazis. By wars end there was about 8 Million of them. What do you suppose we do to them now?     

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15 hours ago, Morch said:

 

Wild fantasies are not a perspective.

 

What was the point of raising a question with regard to how emphatically he followed orders, then? You'd simply pull the brainwashed kid card.

 

Ok, he was a child. He's innocent. In fact, he's a victim as well. :coffee1:

 

16 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

Surely it depends on whether this man was directing the atrocities, or a man who had no choice?

 

I know that orders are often followed with enthusiasm, which IMO should also result in a conviction - but this thread provides no information either way.

 

Being a member of the SS doesn't exactly help his cause..... but even so, personally I'd be far more interested in whether he has previously (before authorities found him) indicated regret at his decision to join the SS decades ago.

I hope that the emboldened part of my original post (above) makes it clear that I had no intention of pulling the "brainwashed kid card" - as personally I don't consider that enough to absolve the leaders (and lower ranking staff that were happy to commit atrocities) being held accountable for the horrors for which they were responsible.

 

I do however, have some sympathy for those who reluctantly followed orders to save their own lives.  As another poster pointed out, I'm sure we all hope that we would behave better in those circumstances - but fear that we wouldn't.....

 

Even Jewish prisoners were involved in some aspects of the concentration camp horrors (I gather - but perhaps I'm wrong?), knowing that they would also be killed if they refused to do as they were told.

Edited by dick dasterdly
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48 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

 

I hope that the emboldened part of my original post (above) makes it clear that I had no intention of pulling the "brainwashed kid card" - as personally I don't consider that enough to absolve the leaders (and lower ranking staff that were happy to commit atrocities) being held accountable for the horrors for which they were responsible.

 

I do however, have some sympathy for those who reluctantly followed orders to save their own lives.  As another poster pointed out, I'm sure we all hope that we would behave better in those circumstances - but fear that we wouldn't.....

 

Even Jewish prisoners were involved in some aspects of the concentration camp horrors (I gather - but perhaps I'm wrong?), knowing that they would also be killed if they refused to do as they were told.

"Even Jewish prisoners were involved in some aspects of the concentration camp horrors (I gather - but perhaps I'm wrong?), knowing that they would also be killed if they refused to do as they were told."

 

Yes, it were the Jewish prisoners who had to depose of the bodies of those gassed, after they had removed all remaining valuables from all possible body parts. After having done that for several weeks they themselves were gassed and while they were doing their ghastly chores they were kept in full isolation away from all other prisoners.

 

And the prisoners had to do many other things of course.

Edited by stevenl
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Nazi ideology was by far most focused on killing all Jews but it isn't really true that Jews were the only genocide targets.

 

You can see in the grim results that their ideological intentions were reflected in percentage of European population exterminated between Jews and Roma, for example. More obsessed with killing Jews, much higher percentage of Jews killed. 

 

 

Quote

 

GENOCIDE OF EUROPEAN ROMA (GYPSIES), 1939–1945

Among the groups the Nazi regime and its Axis partners singled out for persecution on so-called racial grounds were the Roma (Gypsies)

 

 

 

 

https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005219

Edited by Jingthing
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On 13/09/2016 at 6:55 PM, GarryP said:

I just wonder how many of the rank and file would dare to refuse to follow orders, whether that be turning on the gas taps, forcing people into cages, or assisting with conducting inhumane experiments on prisoners, if the result would be locking up in the same conditions as the prisoners, hard labour or even death.  

 

What many of the lower ranks did was most definitely wrong even though they were following orders, but how many of the posters here or people trying the cases would have done exactly the same in those conditions.  People commit atrocities when the conditions give them little option. 

 

However, I hope what happened remains a lesson for many generations to learn from so that those kind of conditions are never allowed to return.  These trials keep it in the public eye which cannot be bad.

 

In any case, I cannot comprehend how they could do what they did. It seems so horrendous so evil beyond belief. I just hope that if I were in the same position I would dare to refuse to follow orders, but somehow I doubt it.   

l'm sure that if you refused to obey orders that you would be joining the prisoners.

What a horrible choice.

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Not that anyone cares, but I can't see why anyone that wasn't actually there would get very excited about whether to prosecute (or not) these more "D-list" Nazi was criminals.


From my POV, it's fine if the law wants to go after them now and it's also fine if they are just left alone in their very old age.

 

Of course if there were any big Nazi fish to still go after, different story. 

Edited by Jingthing
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6 hours ago, Ulysses G. said:

 

Thanks for making my point. That is EXACTLY what Germans were taught in the Hitler Youth.

They were just kids wrapped up in some Nazi Ideology! It wasn't just the Hitler Youth Group that taught Racism and hatred towards Jews. It was taught at home from their families, from their friends, and in the schools, and on the streets, and printed daily in the media, from newspapers to advertisement poster on every street corner, from the writing on Jewish Shop Windows. Racism was part of the German Culture and Society at that time, so it was everywhere then. 

 

So keeping your kid out of the Hitler Youth Organization would have done little to nothing in preventing your kids from learning about this Racism someplace else. Especially if you were as wrapped up in this belief yourself, and like most Germans were at that time. If you were not on the Band Wagon then, you may find yourself in trouble by having your own children reporting you to the SS for being a bad parent. 

 

Easy for all to say now they would never do that, when they have nothing to lose now or lived in those times in Germany. Where you couldn't not even hold a Government Job if you didn't support the Nazi Party, or get promoted in your job, or even get sacked from your job, with little hope of finding another. Without having those papers to say your were a Nazi it was very difficult to even get a job anywhere. 

 

No! You probably wouldn't be put in a Concentration Camp along side the Jews, if you were a German Solder and refused to take orders. You might get shot for this. Or sent to the Russian Front, which is probably just as bad.

 

Every one has Morals! But very few have the Guts to back them up when it is their life they are talking about, and not somebody else's.   

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38 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Not that anyone cares, but I can't see why anyone that wasn't actually there would get very excited about whether to prosecute (or not) these more "D-list" Nazi was criminals.


From my POV, it's fine if the law wants to go after them now and it's also fine if they are just left alone in their very old age.

 

Of course if there were any big Nazi fish to still go after, different story. 

I like your Phase "D-list" as in my point of view this is what it is. I can't wait until they get further down their list and start arresting 95 Year Old Train Engineers who drove these trains that carried all these Jewish Prisoners to these Death Camps and to their certain death.

 

Like many here, I wont lose any sleep over this 95 year old Medic being arrested for War Crimes. It just seems ridiculous to me and an extra big expense and waste of money after all this time. For a Big Fish then sure! But for a Camp Medic?  

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The U.S. Supreme Court has established a long standing presumption against retroactive rules as they are generally result in unjust results.  Retroactive legislation is said to be unfair because it deprives citizens of notice and can create economic uncertainty.

http://administrativelaw.uslegal.com/administrative-agency-rulemaking/prospective-and-retroactive-effect-of-rules/

 

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Australia has no strong constitutional prohibition on ex post facto laws, although narrowly retroactive laws might violate the constitutional separation of powers principle. Australian courts normally interpret statutes with a strong presumption that they do not apply retroactively.

 

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Brazil

According to the 5th Article, section XXXVI of the Brazilian Constitution, laws cannot have "ex post facto" effects that affect acquired rights, accomplished juridical acts and res judicata.

The same article in section XL prohibits ex post facto criminal laws. Like France, there is an exception when retroactive criminal laws benefit the accused person.

 

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In Canada, ex post facto criminal laws are constitutionally prohibited by section 11(g) of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Also, under section 11(i) of the Charter, if the punishment for a crime has varied between the time the crime was committed and the time of sentencing following a conviction, the convicted person is entitled to the lesser punishment.

 

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Generally, the Finnish legal system does not permit ex post facto laws, especially those that would expand criminal responsibility.

 

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In France, so-called "lois rétroactives" (retroactive laws) are technically prohibited by Article 2 of the Code Civil, which states that: "Legislation provides only for the future; it has no retrospective operation"

 

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India

"No person shall be convicted of any offence except for violation of a law in force at the time of the commission of the act charged as an offence, nor be subjected to a penalty greater than that which have been inflicted under the law in force at the time of commission of the offence."

 

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The Indonesian constitution prohibits trying citizens under retroactive laws in any circumstance.

 

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The imposition of retroactive criminal sanctions is prohibited by Article 15.5.1° of the constitution of Ireland.

 

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Article 25, paragraph 2, of the Italian Constitution, establishing that "nobody can be punished but according to a law come into force before the deed was committed",

 

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Article 39 of the constitution of Japan prohibits the retroactive application of laws.

 

just a few examples. the list ist looooong!

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