Harder times for Palestine if Clinton wins US election

[webfact]

OPINION

Harder times for Palestine if Clinton wins US election

by Stanley L Cohen | Stanley L Cohen is an attorney and human rights activist who has done extensive work in the Middle East and Africa.

 

It is clear that Hillary Clinton will not be visiting any Arab capital with a proffered fig leaf

 

Have the Palestinians ever faced a worse American electoral season? A sociopathic, New York "strong-man" narcissist versus a neo-liberal Zionist: whoever succeeds - and anything can happen this time - we know it won't be good for Palestine. Both candidates gave almostidentical speeches to the American Israeli Public Affairs Committee's (AIPAC) convention this spring. 

 

The temptation is to think Republican Donald Trump - with his love for authoritarian "winners" like Israel, and his vow to "bomb to hell" out of every problem - makes a better friend to Israeli aggression. Yet the record reminds us, with Hillary Clinton's long history of defending Zionism, the Palestinians are between the proverbial rock and a hard place.

 

Full story: http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2016/09/harder-times-palestine-clinton-wins-election-160912073343128.html

 

-- AL JAZEERA 2016-09-13

[teacherofwoe]

Rothschild Zionism is devastating to Palestine, Jews everywhere, and the entire population of the planet. The world needs to wake up and see who is controlling them, and funding people like the Bushes, Clintons, Obamas, etc. to do their bidding. Please, don't let your cognitive dissidence rule you and research the facts for yourself. 

[coma]

The US should just butt out of it completely. Then we will all see how the Palestinians fair.

[Rancid]

Zionism oddly seems has both Jewish and non-Jewish subscribers. One really has to wonder why the US still gets involved in massively funding Israels military and involved so heavily in Middle Eastern wars, after all there is no Islamic power in the region that can possibly challenge Israel, the homeland is well established and nothing whatsoever is going to change that.

 

In my opinion Western involvement in the Middle East has created our whole Islamic problem where none previously existed. I remember old movies as a kid where Arabs were often painted as good guys, as such that was the establishment perception. In what way have we (as opposed to a minority profiting) benefited from creating a new enemy? None that I can see. What was a local issue between opposing parties has become a worldwide jihad, abject stupidity or planned?

[Jingthing]

Zionism is simply a political movement for the self determination of the Jewish people in their homeland.

It is not a dirty word as the rabid anti-Zionist article and others (particularly the VILE and disgusting Jew hating post here by the member teacherof)  would imply. 

Zionism by definition doesn't specify any specific borders.

There are Zionists that are OK with a wide variety of specific borders for the state of Israel, just as there are those that support the Palestinian nationalist movement that also support a wide variety of specific borders for that state.

You can be both a Zionist AND in support of the Palestinian national movement. (I certainly am.)

The troubles comes when there is not the will to compromise for REASONABLE national borders for both sides.

That will doesn't really exist strongly on either side, at least for now.

[JHolmesJr]

The day Zionism will be cool will be the day we can all draw 6 pointed stars the way were taught in school…without being accused of a crime by paranoid folks.

[Jingthing]

5 minutes ago, JHolmesJr said:

The day Zionism will be cool will be the day we can all draw 6 pointed stars the way were taught in school…without being accused of a crime by paranoid folks.

You're inventing complaints that don't exist. 

First of all, your absurd post is OFF TOPIC.

We already discussed the incident from the trump campaign that used a graphic from a white supremacist/Jew hating site. Take it to those other old threads if you have more to say about that. Trying to HIJACK this thread with your star obsession is NOT COOL. 

Edited September 13, 2016 by Jingthing

[Scott]

I believe this topic is about life for the Palestinians.   Please stay on topic.  

 

 

[GiantFan]

Dems get contributions.  Reps like US arms company orders.

[Steely Dan]

I'm calling the o.p a piece of misdirection in order to encourage Jewish Americans to vote for Clinton. A cursory examination of the company she keeps demonstrates she is anything but pro-Israel. I refer to the likes of George Soros, the Blumenthals to mention a couple. I do agree that playing perpetual victim is becoming a less and less viable tactic for the Palestinians, but this is due to shifting priorities and allegiances within the Middle East itself.


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[Jingthing]

4 minutes ago, Steely Dan said:

I'm calling the o.p a piece of misdirection in order to encourage Jewish Americans to vote for Clinton. A cursory examination of the company she keeps demonstrates she is anything but pro-Israel. I refer to the likes of George Soros, the Blumenthals to mention a couple. I do agree that playing perpetual victim is becoming a less and less viable tactic for the Palestinians, but this is due to shifting priorities and allegiances within the Middle East itself.


Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect

Well, as you well know SD, American Jews are much more left wing than Israeli Jews. So as usual American Jews are going to overwhelmingly vote for the democratic nominee who this time is Clinton. I, and many others, consider Clinton significantly more supportive of Israel than Obama. The rabid anti-Zionist in the OP likely does too, which is neither here nor there.

The last I heard among Israelis public opinion is split between Clinton and trump. That's interesting because Obama is so widely hated there. The objections to trump is that he appears to be an unstable bombastic hothead and you don't know what you get with him. In other words, very DESTABILIZING. There is also the matter that trump's support base does indeed include many DEPLORABLE supporters, including Jew haters. The alt right movement, home of Pepe the Frog, an important core support base for trump is indeed closely associated with Jew haters and anti-Jewish conspiracy theories. 

 

Edited September 13, 2016 by Jingthing

[dexterm]

It's all of no consequence really, just pure short sightedness on the part of whoever wins the US elections if the OP is to be believed.

 

History is on the side of the Palestinians. They outnumber colonialist Jews in historical pre Partition Palestine which Israel foolishly has usurped and controls 100% and in that territory indigenous Palestinians by sheer numbers will ultimately prevail in a one state solution, unless Israel tries to ethnically cleanse them yet again, which I think perhaps even Israelis and certainly the EU,  and global community would not have the stomach for.

 

In the meantime Israel and its chief supporter USA will have or deserve no peace, credibility or respect. Hillary may change her stance and try to win herself a Nobel Peace Prize ..who knows.

 

Keep painting yourself into a corner, Israel and the USA! You are swimming against the tide of civil and human rights, and history.

Edited September 13, 2016 by dexterm

[Kasset Tak]

It doesn't mater who wins, US has supported Israel sins day 1 and you can see it in the support they still give today.

2012 US aid to Israel was $ 3.1 Billion compared to $ 457 Million to the Palestine or 3.5 times more per person to the Israelis than to the Palestinians... who need the money most the people who are bombing and killing civilians or the people being killed? There are killings from both sides but 1988 to 2011 Israel killed more Palestinian children than the Palestinians killed Israelis in total... and all thanks to US support.

I hope that the bill would that will allow US citizens to sue Saudi Arabia for 9/11 (because the hijackers was Saudi) passes, then the Palestinians can sue US for their support of money and arms to Israel! Hell why don't US citizens sue W Bush for his involvement with the Bin Laden family?!

[Morch]

The OP is an opinion piece appearing in Al Jazeera. Knowing a wee bit about the author may put it in further perspective:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanley_Cohen_(attorney)

 

While I do not take to the author's style and extreme positions, it is a fair observation that neither presidential candidate is especially favorable for the Palestinians. But in my opinion, that got less to do with either having concrete views on the matter, or prescribing to whatever ideology. Both are likely to be opportunistic and pragmatic with regard to foreign policy.

 

The bottom line is that, currently, the Palestinians are not exactly high on anyone's interest list. That includes the Arab World and most Muslim countries. There are, internationally, bigger fish to fry at the moment. With both sides exhibiting lack of real commitment, messy domestic politics and with the absence of viable, realistic solutions - its a diplomatic quagmire.

 

On an optimistic note (one got to have hope), there is persistent talk about a meeting being set up between Netanyahu and Abbas. Not that this will necessarily lead anywhere, but better than nothing, I suppose.

[Ulysses G.]

Good for Hillary - if the title of the thread is true. However, Trump will be harder on Islamic terrorism than she will. He will not put up with all the Palestinian shenanigans.

 

[CharlieK]

5 hours ago, dexterm said:

It's all of no consequence really, just pure short sightedness on the part of whoever wins the US elections if the OP is to be believed.

 

History is on the side of the Palestinians. They outnumber colonialist Jews in historical pre Partition Palestine which Israel foolishly has usurped and controls 100% and in that territory indigenous Palestinians by sheer numbers will ultimately prevail in a one state solution, unless Israel tries to ethnically cleanse them yet again, which I think perhaps even Israelis and certainly the EU,  and global community would not have the stomach for.

 

In the meantime Israel and its chief supporter USA will have or deserve no peace, credibility or respect. Hillary may change her stance and try to win herself a Nobel Peace Prize ..who knows.

 

Keep painting yourself into a corner, Israel and the USA! You are swimming against the tide of civil and human rights, and history.

 

I think you are wrong! Israel doesn't need to do anything about the Arabs in the West bank and Gaza. They can continue with the status quo that exists today. The Arabs are contained, yes they may kick up now and then, But Israel can deal with that. At the end of the day it is up to the Arabs, Until they show signs of actually wanting to build a state rather than remaining as refugees in their own homeland (west bank/Gaza) they will become forgotten. . They can't even agree on holding elections Abbas is worried fatah will lose control. 

 

Even other Arab nations are showing signs of frustration with Abbas. He will not be the one making peace with Israel. History is not on their side, the dynamics are changing. Israel isn't going anywhere, the only one painted into a corner is Abbas. 

 

Or are you delusional that somehow the Arab world will rise up against Israel in defence of a few Palestinians. As for ethnic cleansing, It appears to me that Arabs are doing a good job of that themselves Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan. But I guess the world will over look all that in favour of a few Arabs in Gaza and the West Bank? Yeh right. 

 

If the guy who replaces Abbas doesn't try to make peace, the Arabs there will become irrelevant if they aren't already.  

Edited September 13, 2016 by CharlieK

[Naam]

6 minutes ago, CharlieK said:

Israel doesn't need to do anything about the Arabs in the West bank and Gaza. They can continue with the status quo that exists today. The Arabs are contained, yes they may kick up now and then, But Israel can deal with that.

 

i know a number of Israelis who don't agree with you. plus the status quo and dealing with it means a terrible waste of manpower, material and other precious resources which could boost Israel's GDP to unknown heights. more settlements and occupied areas are as stupid as Hamas rockets and suicide bombers.

[CharlieK]

Just now, Naam said:

 

i know a number of Israelis who don't agree with you. plus the status quo and dealing with it means a terrible waste of manpower, material and other precious resources which could boost Israel's GDP to unknown heights. more settlements and occupied areas are as stupid as Hamas rockets and suicide bombers.

 

In the absence  of any real peace partner, both sides will carry on as before. I do not think Israel wants to absorb the Arabs of the west bank and gaza into a greater Israel. I know some would like that because it would mean the end of Israel at some stage in the future. 

 

But any Arab state in the West Bank and Gaza is going to rely on Israel for its economic survival, I don't see them streaming into Jordan every day to work! So the stupidity of Hamas and Abbas is probably more stupid than settlements! Remember Gaza, Israel left infrastructure there for the arabs to use, the Arabs just destroyed it all.   

[Ulysses G.]

2 hours ago, CharlieK said:

 

 At the end of the day it is up to the Arabs, Until they show signs of actually wanting to build a state rather than remaining as refugees in their own homeland (west bank/Gaza) they will become forgotten. . They can't even agree on holding elections Abbas is worried fatah will lose control. 

 

 

Totally agree. Israel would like to make peace, but as long as the Palestinians keep refusing, they are only hurting themselves.

[Jingthing]

I reckon there will be a topic about this coming, but people of good will will be sad to hear that one of Israel's greatest politicians ever, Shimon Peres, is hospitalized now with a very serious stroke.

 

 

[dexterm]

4 hours ago, CharlieK said:

 

I think you are wrong! Israel doesn't need to do anything about the Arabs in the West bank and Gaza. They can continue with the status quo that exists today. The Arabs are contained, yes they may kick up now and then, But Israel can deal with that. At the end of the day it is up to the Arabs, Until they show signs of actually wanting to build a state rather than remaining as refugees in their own homeland (west bank/Gaza) they will become forgotten. . They can't even agree on holding elections Abbas is worried fatah will lose control. 

 

Even other Arab nations are showing signs of frustration with Abbas. He will not be the one making peace with Israel. History is not on their side, the dynamics are changing. Israel isn't going anywhere, the only one painted into a corner is Abbas. 

 

Or are you delusional that somehow the Arab world will rise up against Israel in defence of a few Palestinians. As for ethnic cleansing, It appears to me that Arabs are doing a good job of that themselves Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan. But I guess the world will over look all that in favour of a few Arabs in Gaza and the West Bank? Yeh right. 

 

If the guy who replaces Abbas doesn't try to make peace, the Arabs there will become irrelevant if they aren't already.  

Not delusonal at all.
Israel is the strongest army in the Middle East, so I doubt anyone could defeat them militarily.
The Zionists will defeat themselves.

 

It's not a matter of the Palestinians wanting to build a state or not. With Israeli continued expansion of colony building in the West Bank there will be insufficient land left to build a viable Palestinian state...ergo, eventually a one state solution.

Meanwhile the Palestinian population to whom Israel has a duty of care as an occupying power under the Geneva Convention continues to grow. That is what I mean by Israel painting itself into a corner.

[dexterm]

3 hours ago, CharlieK said:

 

In the absence  of any real peace partner, both sides will carry on as before. I do not think Israel wants to absorb the Arabs of the west bank and gaza into a greater Israel. I know some would like that because it would mean the end of Israel at some stage in the future. 

 

But any Arab state in the West Bank and Gaza is going to rely on Israel for its economic survival, I don't see them streaming into Jordan every day to work! So the stupidity of Hamas and Abbas is probably more stupid than settlements! Remember Gaza, Israel left infrastructure there for the arabs to use, the Arabs just destroyed it all.   

Both people's economies would boom as a result of a viable peace deal.

 

UN: Israeli occupation stunts Palestinian economy
"New UN report finds Palestinian economy would double in size without Israeli occupation.

'Asymmetric trade dependence' with Israel renders occupied Palestinian territories 'a captive market', according to the UN 

The economy of the occupied Palestinian territories would be at least twice as large if the 49-year-old Israeli occupation was lifted, a new United Nations report has found."

 

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/09/israeli-occupation-stunts-palestinian-economy-160909151839441.html
 

[Ulysses G.]

47 minutes ago, dexterm said:

.
Israel is the strongest army in the Middle East, so I doubt anyone could defeat them militarily.
The Zionists will defeat themselves.

 

 

Your first statement is factual. The second was is pretty much delusional - nothing but wishful thinking.

[Ulysses G.]

47 minutes ago, dexterm said:

.
Israel is the strongest army in the Middle East, so I doubt anyone could defeat them militarily.
The Zionists will defeat themselves.

 

 

Your first statement is factual. The second is pretty much delusional - nothing but wishful thinking.

[CharlieK]

1 hour ago, dexterm said:

Not delusonal at all.
Israel is the strongest army in the Middle East, so I doubt anyone could defeat them militarily.
The Zionists will defeat themselves.

 

It's not a matter of the Palestinians wanting to build a state or not. With Israeli continued expansion of colony building in the West Bank there will be insufficient land left to build a viable Palestinian state...ergo, eventually a one state solution.

Meanwhile the Palestinian population to whom Israel has a duty of care as an occupying power under the Geneva Convention continues to grow. That is what I mean by Israel painting itself into a corner.

 

The idea that the Arabs are hamstrung in building a state because of Israeli expansion (settlement building) is laughable. SO from ethnic cleansing you go to overpopulation. Which is it? It also seems every move is down to Israel. So at what stage do the Arabs take responsibility for their own future. I could argue from your first words that the Arabs are not interested in statehood. They are only interested in one thing like ISIS they only know how to destroy they do not want or have an interest in building a state.

 

Imagine if Abbas was more accommodating towards peace the Arabs in the West Bank and Gaza would have a great future better than Arabs in Syria, Iraq or any other ME country . It is plain to see who is painting themselves into a corner and it isn't Israel.    

 

There is not going to be a Palestine from the river to the sea from over population. Just like any country they will have to control their population growth.     

[CharlieK]

1 hour ago, dexterm said:

Both people's economies would boom as a result of a viable peace deal.

 

UN: Israeli occupation stunts Palestinian economy
"New UN report finds Palestinian economy would double in size without Israeli occupation.

'Asymmetric trade dependence' with Israel renders occupied Palestinian territories 'a captive market', according to the UN 

The economy of the occupied Palestinian territories would be at least twice as large if the 49-year-old Israeli occupation was lifted, a new United Nations report has found."

 

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/09/israeli-occupation-stunts-palestinian-economy-160909151839441.html
 

 

The Biased UN. The Palestinian economy is stunted because Abbas wants to keep the West Bank Arabs in refugee status rather than Nation building. The West Bank economy would boom just by building national infrastructure to establish statehood. But that is not Abbas's goal. He wants to fight an unwinnable war the Arabs lost in 1948 and 1967. You want the occupation lifted, show you can make and live in peace with your neighbours! 

[tomwct]

No, President Trump will make life difficult for the PLO, which by the way is a terrorist organization.

[dexterm]

39 minutes ago, CharlieK said:

 

The idea that the Arabs are hamstrung in building a state because of Israeli expansion (settlement building) is laughable. SO from ethnic cleansing you go to overpopulation. Which is it? It also seems every move is down to Israel. So at what stage do the Arabs take responsibility for their own future. I could argue from your first words that the Arabs are not interested in statehood. They are only interested in one thing like ISIS they only know how to destroy they do not want or have an interest in building a state.

 

Imagine if Abbas was more accommodating towards peace the Arabs in the West Bank and Gaza would have a great future better than Arabs in Syria, Iraq or any other ME country . It is plain to see who is painting themselves into a corner and it isn't Israel.    

 

There is not going to be a Palestine from the river to the sea from over population. Just like any country they will have to control their population growth.     

Everyone (except Israel) agrees that the conditions for a permanent peace deal have been on the table since 2002..we have been here many times before on this forum. They are outlined in the Arab Peace Initiative...the main ones being land swaps, a deal over Jerusalem, and compensation or repatriation for Palestinian refugees.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Peace_Initiative

 

It is not a level playing field between occupied and occupier. In Palestine, Israel is the only one with a powerful standing army. The Palestinians haven't got one. Israel holds most of the cards.

 

If you dont believe me listen to other major world players..

 

"The report by the Quartet entities sponsoring the stalled peace process - the United States, Russia, the European Union and the United Nations - said the Israeli policy "is steadily eroding the viability of the two-state solution."

"This raises legitimate questions about Israel's long-term intentions, which are compounded by the statements of some Israeli ministers that there should never be a Palestinian state," according to the eight-page report."

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israel-should-stop-building-settlements-says-quartet-report-a7114911.html

 

No dichotomy between over population and ethnic cleansing. If Israel wants a mainly Jewish state and a democracy, it has to have a Jewish majority...simple math. You either make yourself a majority by creating a separate viable Palestinian state, or you ethnically cleanse the Palestinian population and steal their land as Israel did in 48 and 67.

 

I have a feeling that it will be quite pointless discussing the issue with you. If one disagrees with the current Israeli government, one is either accused of being anti semitic or in the case of the UN biased. Old ploys that don't work any more. The whole world is watching this time.

[dexterm]

32 minutes ago, CharlieK said:

 

The Biased UN. The Palestinian economy is stunted because Abbas wants to keep the West Bank Arabs in refugee status rather than Nation building. The West Bank economy would boom just by building national infrastructure to establish statehood. But that is not Abbas's goal. He wants to fight an unwinnable war the Arabs lost in 1948 and 1967. You want the occupation lifted, show you can make and live in peace with your neighbours! 

The Palestinians would love to build infrastructure, but Israel refuses to grant building permits.

"Israeli demolitions make more Palestinians homeless
In first half of 2016, 740 people were made homeless by the Israeli army, which says the structures were not approved."

 

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/07/israeli-demolitions-palestinians-homeless-160727205226179.html

[CharlieK]

4 minutes ago, dexterm said:

Everyone (except Israel) agrees that the conditions for a permanent peace deal have been on the table since 2002..we have been here many times before on this forum. They are outlined in the Arab Peace Initiative...the main ones being land swaps, a deal over Jerusalem, and compensation or repatriation for Palestinian refugees.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Peace_Initiative

 

It is not a level playing field between occupied and occupier. In Palestine, Israel is the only one with a powerful standing army. The Palestinians haven't got one. Israel holds most of the cards.

 

If you dont believe me listen to other major world players..

 

"The report by the Quartet entities sponsoring the stalled peace process - the United States, Russia, the European Union and the United Nations - said the Israeli policy "is steadily eroding the viability of the two-state solution."

"This raises legitimate questions about Israel's long-term intentions, which are compounded by the statements of some Israeli ministers that there should never be a Palestinian state," according to the eight-page report."

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israel-should-stop-building-settlements-says-quartet-report-a7114911.html

 

No dichotomy between over population and ethnic cleansing. If Israel wants a mainly Jewish state and a democracy, it has to have a Jewish majority...simple math. You either make yourself a majority by creating a separate viable Palestinian state, or you ethnically cleanse the Palestinian population and steal their land as Israel did in 48 and 67.

 

I have a feeling that it will be quite pointless discussing the issue with you. If one disagrees with the current Israeli government, one is either accused of being anti semitic or in the case of the UN biased. Old ploys that don't work any more. The whole world is watching this time.

 

I note with interest you are the first to mention anti semitism! are you accusing yourself? As for old ploys, the kettle calling the pot black maybe? Israel wants to be recognised as a jewish state, but nowhere has any Israeli politician said arabs in Israel have to leave once a Palestinian state is created. So again this ethnic cleansing rhetoric is just that. It is the Arabs who have stated no jews can live in a Palestinian state. Have they not?

 

I guess you only discuss issues you know you can win or is it that you refuse to recognise the other side of the issue. demonising for the sake of, rather than look at ways that could resolve an issue. Or for you there is only one resolution?