The Next Move On Foreign Land Ownership?

[GuestHouse]

This report from Manageronline is of the Thai Land Offices being instructed and preparing to examine landownership by foreigners via the company route and includes the suggestion that land titles may be revoked where companies are bing used soely to provide foreign ownershi of land.

Report from Manageronline (in Thai).

The comments being submitted by Thais indicate a very broad support for this.

[cclub75]

This report from Manageronline is of the Thai Land Offices being instructed and preparing to examine landownership by foreigners via the company route and includes the suggestion that land titles may be revoked where companies are bing used soely to provide foreign ownershi of land.

Report from Manageronline (in Thai).

The comments being submitted by Thais indicate a very broad support for this.

It should not be surprising (the support from Thais)...

But is there something new in this report ? Because this "instruction" has been issued last july/august (I do not remember exactly).

[johnnyk]

Friends of mine have recently received their chanotes through the company route with no problems.

I think they are really looking at large land assemblies as on Samui rather than individual plots.

Its the large assemblies that seem to be more prone to fraud, money laundering, encroachment and bribery.

[suiging]

No new law. Fear peddlers at it again.

[BKK90210]

I just read the article and it says (I think)

As of today (24 Nov.), the special justice dept working along with the provincial official of Prachuap Khiri Khan are now officially investigating and going after any company that has at least 1 forienger as a shareholder in it that set up for the purpose of owning land. They will try to close it and take the land back.

The article also said, they're starting in Huahin first before going after all other major tourist areas.

[thaigene2]

I just read the article and it says (I think)

As of today (24 Nov.), the special justice dept working along with the provincial official of Prachuap Khiri Khan are now officially investigating and going after any company that has at least 1 forienger as a shareholder in it that set up for the purpose of owning land. They will try to close it and take the land back.

The article also said, they're starting in Huahin first before going after all other major tourist areas.

Thanks to both you and GuestHouse. Anyone else still want to suggest this is just fear mongering?? Okay -- anyone else want to buy a house through setting up a company? Bet there are a few for sale now

[Mobi]

I just read the article and it says (I think)

As of today (24 Nov.), the special justice dept working along with the provincial official of Prachuap Khiri Khan are now officially investigating and going after any company that has at least 1 forienger as a shareholder in it that set up for the purpose of owning land. They will try to close it and take the land back.

The article also said, they're starting in Huahin first before going after all other major tourist areas.

Thanks to both you and GuestHouse. Anyone else still want to suggest this is just fear mongering?? Okay -- anyone else want to buy a house through setting up a company? Bet there are a few for sale now

As some of you know. I got rid of my company a few months ago, transferred the house to my wife, and got a lifetime ufustruct on the property.

Every time I discuss my actions with others who still own their house via the company route, I am regaled with statement that "The Thais would never go after the thousands of single property, 'less than a rai', house owners", and that they only wish to catch the big farang developers.

Then I meet developers, who tell me it is business as usual at the land offices and they just set up companies with 100% Thai shareholders and then put the farang on the books, after the properties have been sold. They tell me that local lawyers are quite satisfied that this is legal.

My lawyer tells me that this practice is very dubious, and it will catch up with them sooner or later.

Over the past few months I have seen nothing to suggest that my action was in anyway one of panic. In fact, if I still owned my house through a company, I would probably be panicking right now.

This "wait and see", almost 'head in the sand' attitude may come back to haunt you.

Do you really think the powers that be could give two hoots if thousands of farangs are dispossessed of their land? If you do, you're living in cloud cuckoo land.

They've even done it in Spain.

[suiging]

JUst looked at the HUA HIN forum, nobody seems to have told them yet ?

[BKK90210]

more translation...hope I'm reading it right

"....The provincial official of Prachuap Khiri Khan got suspicious after they came across documents belonging to many of these companies (in the hundreds) which were set up by the lawyer, are sharing the same thai nominee names.

So they conclude that these companies were infact set up for the purpose of owning land, and not intended to do business as stated on the original Article of incorporation. According to thai land laws this is a no no practice for forienger and illegal!

Edited November 26, 2006 by BKK90210

[Mobi]

JUst looked at the HUA HIN forum, nobody seems to have told them yet ?

The funny thing is, there seems to be an unwitting conspiracy of silence on these forums. Even when talking to people involved in recent house/land transactions, they are somewhat reluctant to say how they are doing it.

It would appear that there are still quite anumber of properties changing hands, yet when the question is aked on Thai Visa - i.e. "Whats' the current state of play/ has anyone bought or sold a house recently?" you get no replies.

As I said above, it would appear that people are hoping that if they keep quiet about it, everything will be OK. But I remain unconvinced.

Edited November 26, 2006 by Mobi D'Ark

[Master of the court]

JUst looked at the HUA HIN forum, nobody seems to have told them yet ?

The funny thing is, there seems to be an unwitting conspiracy of silence on these forums. Even when talking to people involved in recent house/land transactions, they are somewhat reluctant to say how they are doing it.

It would appear that there are still quite anumber of properties changing hands, yet when the question is aked on Thai Visa - i.e. "Whats' the current state of play/ has anyone bought or sold a house recently?" you get no replies.

As I said above, it would appear that people are hoping that if they keep quiet about it, everything will be OK. But I remain unconvinced.

Good question............... I think, first of all, nobody knows what to do..........Im sure lost of men got married recently, just to protect their investment.......hmm

I do also think, (just guessing) that members had the same conversation last year and the year before...........so there's no news in the thread.

I would say , if you really have to get out of town........our good sponsor "Sunbelt" would be fast to give us advice or hint to contact them........think about all the money they could earn in short time ??

[think_too_mut]

Dreams of unwanted people.

It takes a big change to Thai laws to allow foreign land ownership.

How quick would they be with that, knowing they live and let us live with stray dogs?

If they wanted us right here and right now, still, they have to do one more change: to their national anthem that says "every inch of Thai land belongs to Thais".

IMO, I don't see that hapening while we last.

[cclub75]

"....The provincial official of Prachuap Khiri Khan got suspicious after they came across documents belonging to many of these companies (in the hundreds) which were set up by the lawyer, are sharing the same thai nominee names.

Ah ah ah ! People should take as an a example our Ex Great Leader, who used... his maid and driver. Much more secure.

I'm wondering if they have a computer system. If they do have one, they could have a lot of "surprises" in Bangkok, or Pattaya, or Phuket too... where many lawyers offer nominees "services"...

Anyway, it's not a surprise : everybody knows that. And it's tasty to see authorities playing like they were surprised.

The only question is : are they serious this time, is it the begining of a new trend, or just a little anti-foreigners rant (like we used to see from time to time).

[suiging]

"....The provincial official of Prachuap Khiri Khan got suspicious after they came across documents belonging to many of these companies (in the hundreds) which were set up by the lawyer, are sharing the same thai nominee names.

Ah ah ah ! People should take as an a example our Ex Great Leader, who used... his maid and driver. Much more secure.

I'm wondering if they have a computer system. If they do have one, they could have a lot of "surprises" in Bangkok, or Pattaya, or Phuket too... where many lawyers offer nominees "services"...

Anyway, it's not a surprise : everybody knows that. And it's tasty to see authorities playing like they were surprised.

The only question is : are they serious this time, is it the begining of a new trend, or just a little anti-foreigners rant (like we used to see from time to time).

Quite correct.

This also answers Mobi's question on certain sillences.

People are more than concerned and many are not putting their heads in the sand, but keeping a low profile, trying to get by the best they can waiting in hope for political stability and perhaps the return of the status quo for people who are left with little choice.

It's all very well being smug when you have a Thai wife to Unfrustruct off, but if you are a retired farang couple trying quietly to live out your retirement in a country you have come to love, not so easy.

Many such couples were not " blind" when they came to the LOS. They took advise from apparently honest agents ( often no doubt recommended by the now smug on here ) and employed again recommended " local " lawyers who to a man advised a " quiet" company was and still is ( unless you lease of a developer ) the only way forward, unless divorce and remarriage to a Thai is a viable option.

Is it any wonder people in such circumstances ( and there are many ) hope that in the future things may get better ?

[Mobi]

[

Quite correct.

This also answers Mobi's question on certain sillences.

People are more than concerned and many are not putting their heads in the sand, but keeping a low profile, trying to get by the best they can waiting in hope for political stability and perhaps the return of the status quo for people who are left with little choice.

It's all very well being smug when you have a Thai wife to Unfrustruct off, but if you are a retired farang couple trying quietly to live out your retirement in a country you have come to love, not so easy.

Many such couples were not " blind" when they came to the LOS. They took advise from apparently honest agents ( often no doubt recommended by the now smug on here ) and employed again recommended " local " lawyers who to a man advised a " quiet" company was and still is ( unless you lease of a developer ) the only way forward, unless divorce and remarriage to a Thai is a viable option.

Is it any wonder people in such circumstances ( and there are many ) hope that in the future things may get better ?

Suiging,

I honestly don't think I'm being smug on this.

I have expressed my sympathy many times to all have been caught up in the land and visa crackdowns on this forum, even though at the moment I seem to be OK. I'm not stupid enough to beleive that because I'm OK today, I will be tomorrow - one day they'll probably get me too.

On Saturday, I met two house owners and one developer. They were completely convinced that they were going to be Ok and that the Thais would never wholesale confisacte their houses. When I tried to point out that they may be wrong on this, they 'poo poo'ed' the notion, so I kept my own counsel.

I hope I am wrong, but things seem to be slowly warming up.

This has been gone into countless times on TV forum, but I was aware of the risks when I first went into the house/company buying business, and as the prevailing mood at the time was one of total acceptance, I decided to go for it. However, even before the land crackdrown I was becoming worried about my nominee shareholders (yes, the proverbial lawyer whose staff are on the books of hundreds of Pattaya company owning houses), and had decided to do something about it. The crackdown accelerated my decision. Others who claim that they were not aware of the risks are either ignorant, very gullible, or both.

I agree I am in a more fortunate position than some, but I maintain that with a good - preferably Bangkok lawyer - who is not involved directly in the housing business or in providing noimess to farang companies, that it may be possible to find a way out, by taking similar action to me - maybe making a trustworthy Thai the new owner, and arranging a leaseback or even a ufustruct.

But then my land owning friends (who incidentally all have Thai wives) complain that if they do this, they lose the ability to sell the house in the future. Well that wasn't my prime purpose in buying, and if it was their's they should have thought everything through better before buying.

Anyway, good luck to everyone. I hope this mess gets sorted.

[suiging]

[

Quite correct.

This also answers Mobi's question on certain sillences.

People are more than concerned and many are not putting their heads in the sand, but keeping a low profile, trying to get by the best they can waiting in hope for political stability and perhaps the return of the status quo for people who are left with little choice.

It's all very well being smug when you have a Thai wife to Unfrustruct off, but if you are a retired farang couple trying quietly to live out your retirement in a country you have come to love, not so easy.

Many such couples were not " blind" when they came to the LOS. They took advise from apparently honest agents ( often no doubt recommended by the now smug on here ) and employed again recommended " local " lawyers who to a man advised a " quiet" company was and still is ( unless you lease of a developer ) the only way forward, unless divorce and remarriage to a Thai is a viable option.

Is it any wonder people in such circumstances ( and there are many ) hope that in the future things may get better ?

Suiging,

I honestly don't think I'm being smug on this.

I have expressed my sympathy many times to all have been caught up in the land and visa crackdowns on this forum, even though at the moment I seem to be OK. I'm not stupid enough to beleive that because I'm OK today, I will be tomorrow - one day they'll probably get me too.

On Saturday, I met two house owners and one developer. They were completely convinced that they were going to be Ok and that the Thais would never wholesale confisacte their houses. When I tried to point out that they may be wrong on this, they 'poo poo'ed' the notion, so I kept my own counsel.

I hope I am wrong, but things seem to be slowly warming up.

This has been gone into countless times on TV forum, but I was aware of the risks when I first went into the house/company buying business, and as the prevailing mood at the time was one of total acceptance, I decided to go for it. However, even before the land crackdrown I was becoming worried about my nominee shareholders (yes, the proverbial lawyer whose staff are on the books of hundreds of Pattaya company owning houses), and had decided to do something about it. The crackdown accelerated my decision. Others who claim that they were not aware of the risks are either ignorant, very gullible, or both.

I agree I am in a more fortunate position than some, but I maintain that with a good - preferably Bangkok lawyer - who is not involved directly in the housing business or in providing noimess to farang companies, that it may be possible to find a way out, by taking similar action to me - maybe making a trustworthy Thai the new owner, and arranging a leaseback or even a ufustruct.

But then my land owning friends (who incidentally all have Thai wives) complain that if they do this, they lose the ability to sell the house in the future. Well that wasn't my prime purpose in buying, and if it was their's they should have thought everything through better before buying.

Anyway, good luck to everyone. I hope this mess gets sorted.

Mobi,

Your comments are always measured and well worth reading. I get a bit nowty through frustration as much as anything, watching storm clouds gather and not being able to do much about it is never fun.

I will be honest and admit to buying two properties for retirement. This was done on the basis of rent one out to live and bunker down in the other. I always employ locals, and have placed a considerable sum into the hands of the local economy. I do not want to sell and I am not speculating, I have tried the lease option for one, and bite my nails on the other, all in all I feel I'm being buggered through no fault of my own, as sadly I listened to recommended opinion, albeit valid at the time, which looks like it will haunt me. I am not alone in this and finding a trusted Thai if they are not family, is proving a tad difficult.

Sorry for the " smug " bit, bad hair day.

[Mobi]

I am not alone in this and finding a trusted Thai if they are not family, is proving a tad difficult.

Sorry for the " smug " bit, bad hair day.

No problems

For what it's worth, a couple of suggestions.

If you have no Thai family of your own, how about any of your close friends who may be married to 'respectable' Thais? In my case, I know of at least one - maybe two , who, if push came to shove I could trust to transfer and ufustruct back or leaseback my house to.

Then I beleive there are some pretty good lawyers in Bkk who may be able to provide a trustworthy person, and they also may be able to protect you further with side agreements.

Might be worth exploring - but whatever you do, it's not 100% foolproof, and these transactioons don't come cheap, to say nothing of the hassle.

[thaigene2]

I think Mobi's approach - quite an ordeal I recall from some months back - was the best one for his situation.

I don't think anyone's being smug in these forums with those that bought, but those folks should be looking into ways to get legal. As for newbies...I really think you ought to stay miles away from buying property here - unless you're rich then it probably doesn't matter to you. What we're not sure about at present is if the Government is becoming ultra-nationalist relating to foreign property/farang settlement issues, or whether this is just a SNAFU.

Once they clear up the rules about whether they want foreigners here or not, then the property market will settle down. But who knows when that will become a priority given the other things they need to deal with at present?

[teddy_bare]

ufustruct

what does that mean?

i also want to settle here, but can wait til they change the law or i die. i am only 43, which will come first?

[twix38]

I am not smug, but buying land through a company scheme has always been illegal and a method to circumvent the meaning of the law. As such it was always open to later and retrospective enforcement and action.

No matter how many estate agents and lawyers stated that it was fine. It clearly was technically illegal and therefore putting your funds and home at future risk.

For this very reason, I chose to by a Condo in my own name and to ensure the bulk of my funds are based abroad. (in pounds, for me). In principal I refused to take the risk.

I mention this only as a warning to others. This latest enforcement will certainly be followed by others or new laws in different areas (like visas). We are guests here, where the playing field is not level and disadvantages us. Our money is sought, but not us. Our prescence is often sought for financial gain and we benefit too in different ways (weather, cost of living and women).

The rules still apply.

Don't bring more into Thailand, especially for investment (property/business), than you are willing to loose.

To make a small fortune in Thailand, start with a big one.

Existing rules effecting foreigners can and do get changed and, as anywhere, if you find a work-a-round, be prepared for possible trouble ahead.

Even Condo owners in their own name are not immune if laws are changed, zenophobia takes off or another military coup (maybe even after this one settles down)!!

What will happen when the King dies? There is much uncertainty.

Thailand is for Thai's to benefit and foreigners to holiday (short or long term) but not often for foreigners to really benefit.

[quiksilva]

ufustruct

what does that mean?

i also want to settle here, but can wait til they change the law or i die. i am only 43, which will come first?

It is a legal right to enjoy the occupation of land until you die. Its not transferable however, and it does not entitle you to any benefits that might accrue (rent etc) so its only really useful where it involves your personal residence.

[Gary A]

I have some friends who have their houses for sale. Like Mobi was, they are very nervous. The married guys at least have a partial way out BUT the single guys are indeed having trouble sleeping at night. My sympathy goes to those who are waiting for the hammer to drop. One of the single guys I talked to told me he was willing to take a million baht loss on his home. His asking price is now about 6 million rather than the 7 million he spent. When he bought the home he was expecting to be able to sell for a profit but now he simply wants out.

[wolfmanjack]

Those of us that have thai chilren can start a new business for those of you that purchased homes to live in the rest of your life. You pay for the house and put it in our children's name. You can have a usufruct for the rest of your life. It would make a nice retirement for our children.

[Vespa]

I have some friends who have their houses for sale. Like Mobi was, they are very nervous. The married guys at least have a partial way out BUT the single guys are indeed having trouble sleeping at night. My sympathy goes to those who are waiting for the hammer to drop. One of the single guys I talked to told me he was willing to take a million baht loss on his home. His asking price is now about 6 million rather than the 7 million he spent. When he bought the home he was expecting to be able to sell for a profit but now he simply wants out.

There are a glut of homes for sale in Pattaya and I'd say a very large portion of them are being held in a similar fashion.

[BKK90210]

If anyone/or the majority here interested on what the thais had to say on this article just let me know, I will translate their opionions for you......there're 54 feedbacks

[Mobi]

If anyone/or the majority here interested on what the thais had to say on this article just let me know, I will translate their opionions for you......there're 54 feedbacks

I would be most interested, if you have the time.

Thanks

mobi

[Mid]

If anyone/or the majority here interested on what the thais had to say on this article just let me know, I will translate their opionions for you......there're 54 feedbacks

i for one , would be interested in a summary of the majority opinion ............

'tis too much to ask for 54 individual feedbacks to be translated ...........

certainly a very generous offer though

[Indifferent]

I still maintain (as I always have) the safest thing to do is buy a property in your own country and live off the rent. I've looked at owning a several houses here and (to be honest) I can rent cheaper over 30 years than I would pay to buy.

It amazes me that people go to such lengths with so much uncertainty just to have some bricks an morter (or more appropriately concrete) that has a high probability of dissapearing when they can have the same in thier own country and (if they decide to sell) make a profit.

[Tolley]

I still maintain (as I always have) the safest thing to do is buy a property in your own country and live off the rent. I've looked at owning a several houses here and (to be honest) I can rent cheaper over 30 years than I would pay to buy.

It amazes me that people go to such lengths with so much uncertainty just to have some bricks an morter (or more appropriately concrete) that has a high probability of dissapearing when they can have the same in thier own country and (if they decide to sell) make a profit.

My sentiments exactly.

Why give yourself more headaches than you need to?

Clearly the way the land laws and visa laws are structured Thais don't want farangs to feel secure in Thailand.

Fair enough if they want to play that game it is their country but they wont get a satang of my money for investment purposes and quite frankly i don't understand otherwise intelligent people clamouring to buy houses and invest in businesses in Thailand given the xenophobic legislation that currently exists..

[BKK90210]

To be fair.... I will not do the summary on them but will translate each one (54 total) and post them here by tomorrow night. I'm very slow in reading thai but will try my best.

Got to go nite nite now, I'm here in the US and still have to get up for work tomorrow.

Edited December 4, 2006 by BKK90210