When you are to sick to go to Imigration.

[lostinisaan]

38 minutes ago, gamini said:

If that happened to me, I would contact the the Bangkok Post,   the nation and the Thai newspapers and 2 TV stations and ask them to come along and witness a foreigner having to go to immigration in an ambulance. I would get a friend to take a video  and post it on Facebook. But first of all I would ask the immigration officer if he really wants me to do this. I am sure he would back down

 

 I'm aware that certain Immigration officers are spaced out, but wanting people to use an ambulance car, eventually with an oxygen mask is incredible. 

 

   And if that's true, people have to stand up and do something. 

[NoshowJones]

9 hours ago, nabbie said:

Just out of the curiosity, why can't the immigration communicate via skype video for those sick farangs? The evidence would be viable and the burden would be lessened for both IO and farangs. Or should I assume that IO are still stubborn to reject this possibility? 

Again I quote. This is Thailand.

[NoshowJones]

6 hours ago, Faz said:

If Immigration can make home visits to check on foreigners, why can't they make a home or hospital visit for those declared to sick to travel.

 

Or would that be too simple!

 

 

The answer to your question Faz, yes.

[Scotwight]

9 hours ago, nabbie said:

Just out of the curiosity, why can't the immigration communicate via skype video for those sick farangs? The evidence would be viable and the burden would be lessened for both IO and farangs. Or should I assume that IO are still stubborn to reject this possibility? 

Outside of the United Federation of Planets do you know any country that uses skype for immigration purposes?  

[Scotwight]

7 minutes ago, possum1931 said:

Again I quote. This is Thailand.

Yes it is and the reason so many old guys retire here is it is easy to get a retirement extension.    

[OJAS]

46 minutes ago, possum1931 said:

Again I quote. This is Thailand.

 

Not just a Thailand thing, possum1931. The DWP International Pensions Centre back in the UK are equally incapable of checking by Skype whether those of us living in LOS who are in receipt of the State Pension are still alive and kicking, insisting instead on us going through the bureaucratic rigmarole of getting paper life certificates witnessed by a narrow range of acceptable individuals and then returned to them by snail mail within ridiculous deadlines.

Edited September 24, 2016 by OJAS

[Liquorice]

33 minutes ago, Scotwight said:

Yes it is and the reason so many old guys retire here is it is easy to get a retirement extension.    

 

Not if you get sick, which is what this topic highlights.

[Liquorice]

Deleted - double post.

Edited September 24, 2016 by Faz

[Scotwight]

2 minutes ago, Faz said:

 

Not if you get sick, which is what this topic highlights.

So many guys retire here because of the ease of getting retirement visas regardless of health.  The sick thing is a very small percent of the total.  A million posts about visas and how many about sick problems?  I've been here over a decade in 4 different Immigration areas and have never heard of a problem.  

[NancyL]

5 hours ago, gamini said:

If that happened to me, I would contact the the Bangkok Post,   the nation and the Thai newspapers and 2 TV stations and ask them to come along and witness a foreigner having to go to immigration in an ambulance. I would get a friend to take a video  and post it on Facebook. But first of all I would ask the immigration officer if he really wants me to do this. I am sure he would back do

Do you really think these media outlets would be all that interested?

I've known several foreigners in Chiang Mai province who have shown up in gurneys using private ambulance services.  One good thing about the new office at Immigration Promenada Mall is the ease of access for the ambulances and gurneys.  Back when all the services were consolidated, the applicants simply remained in the ambulance and the Immigration officers at the old office near the airport came out to the ambulance and "looked in" at the applicant.

 

Part of what complicates the current situation is a claim by CM Imm. that now there is a national requirement that every applicant has to be photographed, in person, by the camera attached to their desktop computer.  They can't do a quick "look see" or "home visit".  They can't come and process an application via laptop.  OK, I guess we have to accept that claim as they wheel nearly dead people into their office and point the camera connected to their computer into his face.

 

The other alternative, of course, is to obtained a medical extension.  They're a PITA, of course.  Only valid for 90 days and a doctor's letter and nonsense Chiang Mai-specific form is needed each time.  Many doctors refuse to complete this special CM Immigration form, saying it's just a regerg of the info on their letter from the hospital and besides it's not an official Immigration form because it lacks a TM number.  So true, so true.  (Just like the Foreign National Information Form lacks a TM number, but just try too conduct business at CM Imm without submitting one.)

 

As for the idea of not filing 90 day reports or applying for extensions for a terminally ill person.  Well, I've very much been on the forefront of advocating this strategy in dealing with CM Immigration.  However, I've found that for some terminally ill people. they find it very upsetting to think that they're out-of-compliance with ANY rules or regulations.  I have to only think of my own husband who has never had anything like an overdue library book or speeding ticket in his life.  I don't think he'd want to know I decided to skip his 90 day reports just because he received a terminal diagnosis -- that much he'd give up)  And besides, CM Immigration has taken to tracking down people who haven't filed 90 day reports once their date for a visa extension has come and gone and there's no record they've left the country.  What this means is the some terminally ill people or families of recently deceased people have been visited by Chiang Mai Immigration questioning the lack of 90 day reports and a missed visa extension.  This can be very upsetting for loved ones of a terminally ill or recently deceased person to have several uniformed Imm. police personal turn up..  To their credit, CM Imm. haven't issued any fines yet for this, but it's a source of revenue they may tap in the future.

 

You may not realize it, but when you die, someone has to go to Immigration and cancel your visa extension.  Otherwise, there's no evidence you've left the country and, as far as Imm. is concerned, you've simply stopped filing 90 day reports, stopped applying for visa extensions and simply gone on overstay.  They'll try to track you down some day.  And they may not do the obvious thing of looking at local death records.  Instead, they'll do the easy thing of simply visiting your family and upsetting them.

[meatboy]

10 hours ago, Scotwight said:

So many guys retire here because of the ease of getting retirement visas regardless of health.  The sick thing is a very small percent of the total.  A million posts about visas and how many about sick problems?  I've been here over a decade in 4 different Immigration areas and have never heard of a problem.  

just wait till you get toooooooooooooooo sick to go there.

[meatboy]

if its allowed cant eg.someone to print off these posts and send them to their embassy's regarding the unfair treatment we recieve by immigration.

as i said our ambassador is visiting the gov.of phuket to discus,safety,scams regarding whats been happening lately to british tourists.

so what about discussing our concerns.

meatboy welsh but british through and through.

[tonray]

5 minutes ago, meatboy said:

if its allowed cant eg.someone to print off these posts and send them to their embassy's regarding the unfair treatment we recieve by immigration.

as i said our ambassador is visiting the gov.of phuket to discus,safety,scams regarding whats been happening lately to british tourists.

so what about discussing our concerns.

meatboy welsh but british through and through.

Embassy cannot do squat. This is Thailand and Thais can do what they want in their country. End of story.

[Liquorice]

My Immigration office requires Health Certificates for retirement extensions.

However, they are not required for marriage extensions.

I pointed out there is nothing in their orders requiring a Health Certificate, but they stated it was one of their requirements as they wanted to ensure unmarried retirees were strong, healthy, and could take care of themselves.

 

They allow 90 day reports to be completed by 'others' in the event a person is sick, but insist all 'aliens' must attend in person for extensions.

 

[Liquorice]

11 hours ago, Scotwight said:

So many guys retire here because of the ease of getting retirement visas regardless of health.  The sick thing is a very small percent of the total.  A million posts about visas and how many about sick problems?  I've been here over a decade in 4 different Immigration areas and have never heard of a problem.  

 

Ah! So as long as your not one of the small percentage of expats that become sick, or have an accident that disables you, and haven't faced the problems encountered at Immigration in these circumstances, then your not overly concerned.

[OJAS]

15 minutes ago, tonray said:

Embassy cannot do squat. This is Thailand and Thais can do what they want in their country. End of story.

 

They cannot do squat in the case of absurd measures inflicted on their resident expat nationals by their governments back home either - the crazy With-It Tower Passport Renewal Experience and State Pension non-increases being 2 cases in point for us Brits.

[NancyL]

4 hours ago, Faz said:

My Immigration office requires Health Certificates for retirement extensions.

However, they are not required for marriage extensions.

I pointed out there is nothing in their orders requiring a Health Certificate, but they stated it was one of their requirements as they wanted to ensure unmarried retirees were strong, healthy, and could take care of themselves.

 

They allow 90 day reports to be completed by 'others' in the event a person is sick, but insist all 'aliens' must attend in person for extensions.

 

What happens if someone in your province doesn't "pass" the requirements of the Health Certificate?  I've not seen reports of this happening on the forum.  In fact, the criteria examined by the hospital doesn't appear to be something that would be difficult to pass, even for someone who was bedridden -- at least from what I recall.  They're looking more for illicit drug use aren't they?

[gamini]

13 hours ago, NancyL said:

Do you really think these media outlets would be all that interested?

I've known several foreigners in Chiang Mai province who have shown up in gurneys using private ambulance services.  One good thing about the new office at Immigration Promenada Mall is the ease of access for the ambulances and gurneys.  Back when all the services were consolidated, the applicants simply remained in the ambulance and the Immigration officers at the old office near the airport came out to the ambulance and "looked in" at the applicant.

 

Part of what complicates the current situation is a claim by CM Imm. that now there is a national requirement that every applicant has to be photographed, in person, by the camera attached to their desktop computer.  They can't do a quick "look see" or "home visit".  They can't come and process an application via laptop.  OK, I guess we have to accept that claim as they wheel nearly dead people into their office and point the camera connected to their computer into his face.

 

The other alternative, of course, is to obtained a medical extension.  They're a PITA, of course.  Only valid for 90 days and a doctor's letter and nonsense Chiang Mai-specific form is needed each time.  Many doctors refuse to complete this special CM Immigration form, saying it's just a regerg of the info on their letter from the hospital and besides it's not an official Immigration form because it lacks a TM number.  So true, so true.  (Just like the Foreign National Information Form lacks a TM number, but just try too conduct business at CM Imm without submitting one.)

 

As for the idea of not filing 90 day reports or applying for extensions for a terminally ill person.  Well, I've very much been on the forefront of advocating this strategy in dealing with CM Immigration.  However, I've found that for some terminally ill people. they find it very upsetting to think that they're out-of-compliance with ANY rules or regulations.  I have to only think of my own husband who has never had anything like an overdue library book or speeding ticket in his life.  I don't think he'd want to know I decided to skip his 90 day reports just because he received a terminal diagnosis -- that much he'd give up)  And besides, CM Immigration has taken to tracking down people who haven't filed 90 day reports once their date for a visa extension has come and gone and there's no record they've left the country.  What this means is the some terminally ill people or families of recently deceased people have been visited by Chiang Mai Immigration questioning the lack of 90 day reports and a missed visa extension.  This can be very upsetting for loved ones of a terminally ill or recently deceased person to have several uniformed Imm. police personal turn up..  To their credit, CM Imm. haven't issued any fines yet for this, but it's a source of revenue they may tap in the future.

 

You may not realize it, but when you die, someone has to go to Immigration and cancel your visa extension.  Otherwise, there's no evidence you've left the country and, as far as Imm. is concerned, you've simply stopped filing 90 day reports, stopped applying for visa extensions and simply gone on overstay.  They'll try to track you down some day.  And they may not do the obvious thing of looking at local death records.  Instead, they'll do the easy thing of simply visiting your family and upsetting them.

We do need to ridicule them and i have plenty of Thai friends who would help if they tried it on me.

[IMA_FARANG]

If you have the documents from a doctor yhere is  a special cubicle where you they will look over your doctors paperwork

Here is my experience from when i was in hospital  for 4 days in 2013 in Bangkok.

On my  2nd day in hospital I was visited by an Emglish speaking hospital staff person ( a female, if  you must know) who asked specifically if I needed help with my  visa status.

She said it was part of her job to be the contact person with jmmigration if needed.

I said no,  I  should not need any help, as my visa then was good for a year anyhow.

But the point is, athat at least in Bangkok and in that hospital they had a English speaking  person on the staff whose duties including visiting foriegn patients to ask about visa and act as a contact with immigration if needed,

i am fully aware such a staff person may not esist in every hopital in Thaiand however.

nut in the hopital  I was in did have such a person.

 

 

 

[NancyL]

Yes, the private hospitals often have someone on staff to assist with Immigration issues.  Often they don't offer assistance -- you have to request it, and it's a sign of a good and responsive hospital that they thought to visit a patient to check if assistance was needed.  

 

Certainly anyone can file a 90 day report on behalf of a hospital-bound patient.  And a customer-service rep can arrange for a medical extension.  But, they can't facilitate a retirement extension if you're unable to physically visit Immigration yourself and they can't arrange for you to obtain a statutory declaration for an Income Letter even if your Embassy/Consulate will send a rep to your bedside, if you're in a coma or otherwise unable to swear an oath and create the impression with your Consular official that you understand what you're signing or affixing your thumbprint to.

 

In those cases, the customer service rep can act on your behalf to obtain a medical extension from Immigration, but as I mentioned, they're only valid for 90 days, cost is 1900 baht just as for a one-year extension and the hospital rep isn't go to assist you once you're discharged in continuing to obtain a medical extension, even if you're in no shape to go to Imm. yourself.  It's up to your family, a friend or a visa agent to continue to request a medical extension every 90 days for you.  It's a PITA to have to go to Imm. so often and submit a fresh doctor's letter, etc.  Often the doctor wants to see the patient each time before writing a new letter.  

 

In light of this, it's often just as easy to use a private ambulance to bring the person into Immigration on a gurney for the once-a-year retirement extension rather than a family member, who is usually an over-taxed caregiver, having to run around four times a year to get all the documents organized for a medical extension from the hospital and then go out to Immigration where they have to wait in the queue.  At least when someone shows up on a gurney, Immigration does everything in their power to process the application immediately and get the person out of the office.  It really doesn't look good, does it?

 

 

 

[Liquorice]

18 hours ago, NancyL said:

What happens if someone in your province doesn't "pass" the requirements of the Health Certificate?  I've not seen reports of this happening on the forum.  In fact, the criteria examined by the hospital doesn't appear to be something that would be difficult to pass, even for someone who was bedridden -- at least from what I recall.  They're looking more for illicit drug use aren't they?

 

That's the million dollar unanswered question Nancy.

 

I asked in the case of someone being bedridden and unable to attend for an extension, would they give a 30 day extension until they could attend.

Also how could someone be so sick they couldn't attend, be issued a Health certificate.

I didn't get a definitive answer, more a debate between the officers and a shrug of the shoulders.

 

As long as I'm walking, breathing and can produce 30baht, then I can obtain a Health Certificate without any further examination, from any clinic, so what's the point, it's meaningless.

[meatboy]

my last stay [2nights/3days] in august i got 4 invoices with 12items on each with an explanation of each item. all signed by the hospital cashier, so do you also need a doctors letter to prove your situation.

[Liquorice]

It really only affects those who may be hospitalised, incapacitated, or bedridden for longer than 30 days (that being the period allowed to do an extension).

 

Section 2.25 of Police Order 327-2557 is supposed to deal with kind of situation, but it's rather ambiguous.

Police Order 327-2557 (2014) - extension criteria & conditions en - immigration.pdf

[NickJ]

My relative was in a major Bkk hospital. We knew she would die there. When it came time to do the yearly extension. They would only extend it for three months at a time. Fine. Then after a years worth of three month extensions. They started only giving two week extensions......The big honcho at IM wanted to talk to me. On the phone the git was so nasty I could not believe it. The patient was in ICU at the time. I was told people like her were not wanted here. That I had to come see him in person if I didn't want to have very serious problems. He pretty much implied he would have her removed from the ICU. 

The Hospital was shocked. The Embassy just said to let her go on overstay. Now, I knew they would never remove her. But I would have thought it would have been a no Brainer to just let her pass in peace. His intention was to shake me down for a bribe. Everybody agreed. She hung in for over three years. Passed as an overstayed. It was just the principal of the whole deal that turned my stomach.

[SaintLouisBlues]

On 9/24/2016 at 7:01 PM, chrisinth said:

It just shows how different immigration offices are around the country, how they interpret their own laws and their expectations of what is required.

 

Of course, anyone who has been here (on TV) for a while have read some of the horror stories. Although on a slight tangent to the OP, i have to say that I have never done a 90 day report personally, it has always been a representative doing it for me (not an agency). It is scary the requirements of some of these offices for something so routine when the person meant to be doing the reporting obviously cannot and they cannot accept a 3rd party to do it for them.

Isn't this one of the reasons why some farang pay lawyers to do it all for them?? Does Chaeng Wattana insist on the applicant turning up for the extension in person?

[colinneil]

12 minutes ago, NickJ said:

My relative was in a major Bkk hospital. We knew she would die there. When it came time to do the yearly extension. They would only extend it for three months at a time. Fine. Then after a years worth of three month extensions. They started only giving two week extensions......The big honcho at IM wanted to talk to me. On the phone the git was so nasty I could not believe it. The patient was in ICU at the time. I was told people like her were not wanted here. That I had to come see him in person if I didn't want to have very serious problems. He pretty much implied he would have her removed from the ICU. 

The Hospital was shocked. The Embassy just said to let her go on overstay. Now, I knew they would never remove her. But I would have thought it would have been a no Brainer to just let her pass in peace. His intention was to shake me down for a bribe. Everybody agreed. She hung in for over three years. Passed as an overstayed. It was just the principal of the whole deal that turned my stomach.

 

Posters who thought my post wrong need to read this.

Then they can see how unhelpful/ awkward/ arrogant immigration can be towards sick/ disabled people.

[NickJ]

Well, in my case. There was even an immigration office in the hospital. Also the officers reviewed the cases based on the treating physicians recomendations.  Pretty much everyone involved was disgusted.

[chrisinth]

4 hours ago, SaintLouisBlues said:

Isn't this one of the reasons why some farang pay lawyers to do it all for them?? Does Chaeng Wattana insist on the applicant turning up for the extension in person?

 

I think for extensions now, you are required to turn up in person; I believe they update the digital photograph every year (?). That has been my experience for the last two years at my immigration office, not sure about CW. The point i was trying to highlight wasn't so much extensions, but the demand for unfit/unwell/bed-ridden people to do 90 day reporting personally, where a nominated person could easily do it for them.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

On 9/26/2016 at 2:13 PM, NickJ said:

My relative was in a major Bkk hospital. We knew she would die there. When it came time to do the yearly extension. They would only extend it for three months at a time. Fine. Then after a years worth of three month extensions. They started only giving two week extensions......The big honcho at IM wanted to talk to me. On the phone the git was so nasty I could not believe it. The patient was in ICU at the time. I was told people like her were not wanted here. That I had to come see him in person if I didn't want to have very serious problems. He pretty much implied he would have her removed from the ICU. 

The Hospital was shocked. The Embassy just said to let her go on overstay. Now, I knew they would never remove her. But I would have thought it would have been a no Brainer to just let her pass in peace. His intention was to shake me down for a bribe. Everybody agreed. She hung in for over three years. Passed as an overstayed. It was just the principal of the whole deal that turned my stomach.

 

Sorry to hear of that really horrible story (in terms of Immigration's handling of things).

 

What Immigration office was (mis)handling the case of your relative?