An SSA question

[tutsiwarrior]

I presently have my SSA pension application under consideration and have been asked to complete and submit Form SSA - 308 'Modified Benefit Formula Questionnaire - Foreign Pension'...it seems that they want to know about the details of a small private company pension that I have from my time working in the UK 20 years ago...

 

I don't understand, are they gonna penalize/dock my pension amount because I will receive an amount from outside of the SSA? don't folks normally receive retirement income from sources outside the SSA?

 

anyone know what they intend in this case? any recent legislation in this regard?

[Pib]

This link from the SSA website may help.

https://secure.ssa.gov/apps10/poms.nsf/lnx/0200307290

 

[tutsiwarrior]

thanks Pib...

 

I had a look at that link and at these two others:

 

https://www.ssa.gov/pubs/EN-05-10045.pdf

 

https://faq.ssa.gov/ics/support/KBAnswer.asp?questionID=3738&hitOffset=20&docID=4688

 

and it looks like my SSA benefit which was small and not enough to live on (or to cover the thai immigration retirement extension income requirement) will be reduced to insignificance...

 

ye gots to know these things when ye submit yer application to the SSA...

 

so...be aware...

 

(and I've discovered that my shophouse has a structural problem that renders my beloved kitchen unusable and that my nieces are all big and don't love me anymore...

 

oh, boo hoooo!

 

and then tutsi is skint and has no choice but to return to work...but this time it's upriver and into the heart of darkness...)

 

 

 

 

Edited October 12, 2016 by tutsiwarrior

[taxout]

Yes, most -- or least many -- Americans receive a private pension in addition to Social Security, and normally the private pension doesn't affect their Social Security payments.

But there's a gotcha for those who've worked overseas: your Social Security payments can be reduced if you receive a pension from work overseas that wasn't covered by Social Security. There's a complicated formula to calculate the reduction.

If possible, you might look into taking a lump sum payment and closing out the foreign pension.

Edited October 12, 2016 by taxout

[tutsiwarrior]

taxout...excellent advice! if that's doable then great but I wonder if there is a procedure in place for this purpose...

 

I'm dealing with the folks in Manila on instructions that they received from Baltimore...

[tutsiwarrior]

the UK folks say that there is an option to take a cash lump sum for part of my entitlement but I'm not sure regarding an amount for all of it...

 

there are plenty of yanks that have worked overseas with the same problem, I presume...

 

jeezuz, things are complicated...an' we're only talkin' about a few hunnerd bucks...

Edited October 12, 2016 by tutsiwarrior

[Pib]

I expect the questionnaire is just to ensure the "earnings" from UK private job were not included in the reported SSA earnings with no social security tax being paid.   I'm not sure how such an event would occur but I'm surprised all the time where some story sounds unbelievable until you find out the details.   If the earnings were included with no social security tax deducted while working at that job, then I expect those earnings/years are backed out of the SSA pension calculation.

 

You may have noticed in some of the instructions/info that they gave an example of the Civil Service Retirement System (CSRS) which was the old system used by the U.S. federal govt where its civilian employees did not pay any social security tax nor could they receive a social security pension based on those years of working for the U.S. govt under the CSRS.  Now the CSRS was replaced in 1987 with the Federal Employees Retirement System (FERS) which did pay social security taxes and was fully creditable towards a Social Security pension.  

 

Heck, I receive a military retirement and FERS retirement and will soon be receiving a Social Security retirement....and that Social Security retirement is almost all totally based on my military and civil service years of work which are treated just like any regular job since social security taxes were paid.

 

I kinda doubt the SS Office at the Manila Embassy will be able to give you much of any detail on questions you may have since they are geared mainly to take applications and follow-on docs which the Baltimore International Operations Office may ask for.  Baltimore handles all applications from folks with "international" addresses.  Heck, I talked to them just last night about the status of my application I filed through the Manila office 5 weeks ago....it was still in Baltimore's queue to be worked....it was "assigned" to a rep to work but still hadn't been worked yet....the rep I talked to said she would tweak that rep via email about my concern/status of the application which is just a straight-forth application....guess Baltimore just has a lot of applications or not enough workers....don't know.   Now Manila processed the application/input it into the system ASAP...no complaints there....after taking my application Manila even said it now takes Baltimore 2 to 4 months to process applications once Manila inputs them to the system....I'm at the mercy of Baltimore process now although Manila can probably do some middle man worked if/when needed like process/forward on any additional docs requested by Baltimore.

 

Anyway, see below weblink for more info regarding Baltimore operations....the link below includes a sublink which gives "Contact by Phone" info.  Good luck.

 

https://www.ssa.gov/foreign/

 

 

 

 

 

[tutsiwarrior]

Pib...yer probably correct that the SSA maybe just wants to see that I'm  not gonna be paid twice for the foreign work experience...we'll see how they adjudicate in the end..

 

I'm gonna call Manila and get step by step instructions to complete the Form SSA - 308 as the language needs interpretation like on a tax form that is deliberately misleading...

[tutsiwarrior]

in the end, I sent Manila a copy of my most recent UK pension advice for them to review...and I will contact them after to discuss how to correctly complete the Form SSA - 308...'for the avoidance of doubt'...

 

hey, I'm retired and trine to relax over here...

[taxout]

Why, the form says, "We estimate that it will take about 10 minutes to read the instructions, gather the facts, and answer the questions."

https://www.ssa.gov/forms/ssa-308.pdf

[tutsiwarrior]

rubbish...in places 'pension' refers to the non - SSA pension and other places could be interpreted as combined SSA + non-SSA amount...

 

I'm too old fer all this...brain cell deficit...

[tutsiwarrior]

btw...in the SE Asia forum there is rioting outside the US Embassy in Manila:

 

and that's where the Manila SSA lives...

 

what impact will this have on their operation, I wonder?

 

tutsi's SSA application and associated delays: 'de thrilla in Manila'

 

 

Edited October 19, 2016 by tutsiwarrior

[tutsiwarrior]

I got contacted by SSA Manila today about a phone chat tomorrow so looks like their operation is not affected by the rioting per the article above...

[tutsiwarrior]

I talked to Manila and got the SSA - 308 sorted and then she said get the form SF1199 to me ASAP so we can go forward...

 

I went to BBK Bank on Silom today and the lady there said for me to open the account back in my little town in Suphanburi and I said that the local branch is as big as a shoe box and I'm sure that they don't speak English and wouldn't know what  was talkin' about if they did anyway...

 

she then prepared a memo to give to the local branch and provided her number for anyone to call if there was any difficulty...later, the local branch would forward the SF1199 to her (I am supposed to copy the same to Manila) and then we're off to the races...

 

the question of the SS card came up (it's the bank policy to insist on sight of one) and I provided my last SSA pension advice with the last 4 digits which after some haggling was accepted ('the card was issued over 50 years ago!!?? you can't be seriously believe that I would still have it???')...' the advice also has my Thailand PO Box address and I showed my thai driver's licence with the physical address which will be accepted to open the account...

 

so, back to the local branch to see what happens...the Silom lady was very helpful and assured me that she is available by telephone to provide any needed assistance...

[ubonjoe]

When I was planning on getting my SSA payment started and the direct deposit account at Bangkok Bank I didn't have by SS card either. So I applied for a new card by submitting a  SS-5-FS   replacement card request to the embassy. New card was delivered to my address here about 2 weeks later.

Info is here on embassy website: https://th.usembassy.gov/u-s-citizen-services/federal-benefits/social-security/social-security-number/

[Pib]

The wife and I still have our original SS cards issued decades and decades ago....filed away with my other important docs.   So far in opening a new account (last one about a year ago) they didn't ask to see my SS card....they just took my word the number I entered was the correct number.

 

Since FATCA has went in effect and when a U.S. person signs up for a Thai bank account it's becoming more common that the bank just don't want to take your word for it that you are entering your correct SS number on the forms....they want proof and the key proof they seem to want now is to see your SS card.  Yes, Virginia, I expect there are folks who would enter an incorrect SS number in hopes that would prevent the IRS from getting the Thai bank account interest earned info if the Thai bank reports the data to the IRS.  And there are probably some people who simply can't remember it and just enter any 9 digit number.  All kinds off folks in the world.

 

Now whether your particular branch will require to see/make a copy your SS card, accept another doc with your SS on it, or just take  your word for it will all depend on that branch....I think we all know there is not good policy standardization here when it comes to dealing with Thai banks/branches....even among branches part of the same parent bank.

 

 

 

[tutsiwarrior]

I'm hoping that the memo that was issued at Silom yesterday was an instruction for the local branch to proceed in the usual fashion for opening the deposit account using the SF1199...as I said the Silom lady is available for any query...I would kinda doubt that the local branch, never having dealt with this procedure before will be concerned about SS #cards but we'll see...

 

and thanks to joe for the link to apply for a replacement card which shall be handy if there are any problems in this regard...

 

seems to me that regardless of FATCA requirements, providing false info to open an account for SSA payment purposes would be self defeating...

 

 

[Pib]

1 hour ago, tutsiwarrior said:

seems to me that regardless of FATCA requirements, providing false info to open an account for SSA payment purposes would be self defeating...

 

Well, my earlier statement regarding using a false SS number was really about opening Thai bank accounts in general...putting the SS # on forms that they keep/use (to include the U.S. IRS form W-9 Request for Taxpayer SS Number) and may never mail off.  

 

Usually a SF1199 form does not even have to be used to provide your bank routing number and account number to "whoever" is accomplishing a direct deposit.   Now days you usually can start/change your direct deposit with your online account number, calling in the info, etc.  

 

The SF1199 is really just the long form so to speak where the bank to receive the DD can actually enter the bank account info versus the individual doing it....maybe that reduce errors when the individual is kinda clueless about routing numbers and such (not implying anything).  

 

Heck, when I change some of my U.S. govt direct deposits I just call the agency issuing the payment (like DFAS for my U.S. military retirement payment) and give them the new info over the phone....and I'm pretty sure I can do it with my online DFAS account also without logging to confirm for this post.   The last time I changed my VA payment was via a phone call to the VA.  And about 7 years ago when I opened my Bangkok Bank Direct Deposit account at the Silom branch (I live in Bangkok) to receive my mil retirement the Silom folks did all that paperwork like you are doing (i.,e the SF1199, a W9, and some of their other forms), and they said they would mail them off to DFAS, but I said no need because that night I just came home and called DFAS to give them my new Bangkok Bank account number for direct deposit.   I only did the DD to my Bangkok Bank DD account for a few months because I switched to a new U.S. bank account I opened...called in that switch also.

 

And recently I started my Social Security pension (decided not to wait to my full retirement age), applied through Manila, did not submit any W9 or SF1199 forms, just verbally gave them the info during the telephone interview.  And once the pension application was approved my SS online account shows the bank, routing number and account number the month payment will be sent to.

 

And below is a partial quote from the SS website about the various methods to start/change/update your direct deposit info

https://www.ssa.gov/deposit/

 

Quote

 

If you already are receiving benefits, you can create a my Social Security account and start or change Direct Deposit online. You also can sign up at your bank, credit union, or savings and loan.

Or call Social Security at 1-800-772-1213 (TTY 1-800-325-0778).

 

 

 

In a way some of the U.S. forms used by Bangkok Bank (and other Thai banks) to open accounts for U.S. persons now is just a way to protect themselves in case of audit for FATCA compliance and to make the customer more comfortable in reading/signing U.S. forms he has been use to seeing during his life....and also the forms are in English which is definitely understandable versus some of the English on Thai bank forms that can leave you scratching your head as  to what they are really trying to say.

 

 

[tutsiwarrior]

pib, better not to read too much into it...I see the SF1199 as simply a requirement by the SSA to successfully process yer claim application...

 

once you are locked into the system with a successful claim application then one can be creative with subsequent activities...

[tutsiwarrior]

I opened my BBK Bank DD account yesterday in Suphanburi after presenting them with the Silom ofc memo and things went pretty smoothly...filled out the US W - 9 form and some other FATCA related documents...we sorted the SS card verification business at Silom and the lady there prepared a SF1199 with my home address and SS# with only the account number to be filled in by the Suphanburi branch, she had already signed and stamped it...I will also scan the completed SF1199 and send it to Manila...the Suphan branch will forward the completed form to Silom for them to process in the usual way, send to Baltimore, etc...

 

I rather doubt if I would have had any success at all in Suphanburi if I hadn't been to Silom first...the Silom staff is very helpful, but you should have some way of verifying yer SS# for their purposes...

 

also, the local branch staff want to scrutinize your mailing and home address verification (in my case SSA correspondence with mailing and thai driver's license with home) for their usual reasons when opening a new account...I half expected to get the work permit requirement nonsense as they are a small local branch dealing with a falang...looks like Silom had got that bit sorted in their memo...

 

 

Edited November 2, 2016 by tutsiwarrior

[ubonjoe]

Bangkok Bank will scan and email the SF1199 to Manila.

I know that because when I set up my direct deposit Bangkok Bank told me the date they sent it to them after my case officer emailed me that they had not gotten it yet. Replied back and informed him of the info. His reply was that he would take care of it.

[tutsiwarrior]

I just got my 'notice of award' letter from the SSA and due to the fact that I will receive a pension which was not covered by SSA payments (a company pension from the UK) my original payment amount was recalculated using the 'windfall elimination provision' and was reduced by 29%...

 

so...let this be a warning to others with a foreign pension falling under the windfall elimination provision when applying for a US SSA pension; be very careful how you fill out the application form...I thought: 'why not be truthful and upfront with the SSA? they're here to help...'...

 

well, I was wrong...now I'm just a c**t hair above the required monthly amout for a marriage extension...the recalculation messed me about bigtime...

 

now my savings won't last as long and I will havta go back to work probably to die in some middle eastern shithole in my 70s...

 

(Kipling: 'and he died alone amongst negroes and malays due to the windfall elimination provision...')

 

 

Edited December 24, 2016 by tutsiwarrior

[tutsiwarrior]

for more info on the 'windfall elimination provision' see link:

 

www.socialsecurity.gov/pubs/EN-05-10045.pdf

 

look out for your best interests...the SSA certainly won't...

[Pib]

8 hours ago, tutsiwarrior said:

I just got my 'notice of award' letter from the SSA and due to the fact that I will receive a pension which was not covered by SSA payments (a company pension from the UK) my original payment amount was recalculated using the 'windfall elimination provision' and was reduced by 29%...

 

 

This small UK company pension you get private pension from was that pension based on work also done in the U.S.?  That is, you worked for the UK company but you were based in the US working on a contract or subsidiary the company had in the US.   Or maybe even a US govt contract in another country.  

 

And then while working that UK company did report your earnings to the Social Security Agency but did not withhold social security taxes.   Maybe left that up to you to report/pay if you wanted to earn credits towards a SS pension.   But that would still not affect how much private pension your earned from your employer.

 

With no SS taxes withheld, the earnings reported to the SSA would not earn you any SS credits for those years no SS taxes were paid. 

 

Maybe in reviewing/auditing of your SS earnings the SSA spotted this possible situation (i.e., possibly no SS taxes paid and the form they asked you to provide them was the documentation/proof needed  for them to further evaluate/validate if SS taxes had been paid.  And they determined no SS taxes were paid?

 

It's just seems the quote of the first paragraph from the weblink given the windfall provision deals with employment that didn't withhold SS taxes.  

Quote

 

Your Social Security retirement or disability benefits can be reduced The Windfall Elimination Provision can affect how we calculate your retirement or disability benefit. If you work for an employer who doesn’t withhold Social Security taxes from your salary, such as a government agency or an employer in another country, any pension you get from that work can reduce your Social Security benefits.

 

 

 

[tutsiwarrior]

nah...I was an expatriate in the UK without any ties to the US other than my passport working for indigenous UK companies...no US taxes paid or SS contributions...it's all on the SSA income summary that they give you to illustrate the original pension calculation (zero income during that time)...

 

I don't understand why this status would cause there to be a new calculation if I was paying into a company pension during that time...the original calculation didn't give much but a 29% reduction hurts...probably some republican dickheads dickin' around to try and destroy SS pensions altogether...which is now a very real possiblilty...

[Pib]

Maybe something to do with the formula SSA uses to calculate a person's pension....and it ain't no simple formula.  Then you got fine print like what happened to you which can impact the formula.   Below SSA weblink talks about the formula....it you can understand it you deserve a Nobel Price for Mathematics...and the SSA would probably hire you to explain it to them.

https://www.ssa.gov/oact/cola/piaformula.html

 

[tutsiwarrior]

the formula for recalculation based upon the windfall elimination provision is set out in the link I gave above...my question is: why am I being penalised when plenty of folks in the US have company pensions apart from SS and their SS benefit is not affected? so what if no SS was paid during the associated employment period in non SS circumstances? I paid into the UK social benefit system (as well as paying UK taxes) from which I received nothing...

 

just sayin'...I should not have mentioned the foreign pension on the initial SSA application...others are advised to do the same if they want to avoid the same treatment that I received...

 

 

Edited December 24, 2016 by tutsiwarrior

[tutsiwarrior]

to illustrate my annoyance what I lost out on coulda paid the monthly utilities and one weekly grocery shop for the household...I gots me own budget fer the vodka...

[chiang mai]

The OP needs to look into WEP and its impact on US SSc pensions. Windfall Elimination Provision (WEP) was designed to normalise the SSc pension of diplomats who had worked overseas and had foreign government (or private) pensions as a result, in the 1980's they expanded this to cover everyone who had overseas pensions, EXCEPT where those pensions were made up of ONLY voluntary contributions. So if your pension was voluntary and you paid all the premiums yourself outside of payroll deductions, you're OK - if not, your US pension will be reduced.

[tutsiwarrior]

47 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

The OP needs to look into WEP and its impact on US SSc pensions. Windfall Elimination Provision (WEP) was designed to normalise the SSc pension of diplomats who had worked overseas and had foreign government (or private) pensions as a result, in the 1980's they expanded this to cover everyone who had overseas pensions, EXCEPT where those pensions were made up of ONLY voluntary contributions. So if your pension was voluntary and you paid all the premiums yourself outside of payroll deductions, you're OK - if not, your US pension will be reduced.

 

yeah...I'm gonna file an appeal but don't expect much to happen...once they've made their determination they don't wanna be proved wrong and will defend the original decision regardless...my UK company pension resulted from the usual pension scheme with voluntary monthly contributions from the employee with a contribution from the employer...

 

from the way that the WEP info sheet (see previous link) is worded it looks like any SS pension that is augmented by a foreign pension resulting from employment not covered by SS contributions is subject to recalculation...