New York police officer kills mentally ill woman

[webfact]

NYC mayor: Police shooting of woman, 66, was 'unacceptable' 
TOM HAYS, Associated Press

 

NEW YORK (AP) — New York City's mayor castigated a police sergeant Wednesday for fatally shooting a mentally ill, 66-year-old woman brandishing a baseball bat, saying her "tragic" and "unacceptable" death resulted from failure to follow basic policies.

 

"Our officers are supposed to use deadly force only when faced with a dire situation. It's very hard to see that standard was met," a somber Mayor Bill de Blasio said. "Something went horribly wrong here."

 

The unusual rebuke came less than 24 hours after Deborah Danner, who is black, was shot to death in her Bronx apartment. And it came even as investigators were still looking into why the white officer didn't call for an emergency services unit and didn't use his department-issued stun gun.

 

"Deborah Danner should be alive right now, period," the mayor said. "If the protocols had been followed, she would be alive. It's as simple as that."

 

Wednesday night, a group of more than two dozen protesters marched from Danner's apartment to a local police precinct chanting "no justice, no peace" and "send those killer cops to jail."

 

Earlier, New York police Commissioner James O'Neill said his department "failed" by not using means other than deadly force.

"That's not how it's supposed to go," O'Neill said. "It's not how we train; our first obligation is to preserve life, not to take a life when it can be avoided."

 

The head of the police union representing sergeants, Ed Mullins, said the shooting was self-defense and bemoaned what he characterized as a politically motivated rush to judgment.

 

"We could be sitting here talking about how a 66-year-old ... fractured his skull," Mullins said.

 

Police were responding to a 911 call about an emotionally disturbed person around 6:15 p.m. Tuesday when an eight-year veteran of the force, Sgt. Hugh Barry, encountered Danner in her seventh-floor apartment, police said.

 

Officers had been called to Danner's home several times before to take her to the hospital during psychiatric episodes, the mayor said. Each of those times, she was taken away safely. This time was different.

 

Barry persuaded Danner to drop a pair of scissors she had been holding, but when she picked up the bat and tried to strike him, he fired two shots that hit her torso, police said.

 

Danner's sister, Jennifer, was in the hallway, outside the apartment, waiting to accompany her to the hospital, when the shots rang out, said the mayor, who spoke to her on Wednesday.

 

"It was a very painful conversation to say the least," he said. "I told her how sorry I was."

 

Danner "had been sick since she was in college," her cousin, Wallace Cooke Jr., said.

 

Cooke, 74, a retired police officer, said officers had been at her apartment "multiple, multiple times over the years." His cousin had recently stopped taking her medication, but "that's not an excuse to be dead."

 

Barry was stripped of his badge and gun and placed on desk duty while the state attorney general's office determines whether the case falls under its authority to investigate police shooting of unarmed civilians. Police officials were investigating why the sergeant chose not to use a stun gun he was carrying or retreat and wait for backup from specially trained emergency service officers.

 

Court records show Barry was named as a defendant along with other officers in two lawsuits alleging police brutality, not an unusual number of lawsuits for an officer who has been on the force for a number of years. Both suits were settled for a few thousand dollars.

 

New York City police responds to tens of thousand of calls about emotionally disturbed people each year. Officers and commanders, Barry among them, receive training on how to deal with mentally ill people that includes instruction in techniques to "de-escalate" a situation, rather than resort to force.

 

"We need to know why this officer did not follow his training," de Blasio said.

 

The investigation will have to move forward without eyewitness accounts besides Barry's and no video evidence: Barry and Danner were the only ones inside the bedroom at the time of shooting and the NYPD is still in the midst of testing body cameras it expects to put into use early next year.

 

Tuesday's killing evoked memories of the 1984 police killing of another 66-year-old Bronx woman.

 

Eleanor Bumpurs died from two shotgun blasts as she waved a knife at officers evicting her from her public housing apartment after falling behind in her rent. Bumpurs was black, and community activists decried the shooting as racist.

 

The Rev. Al Sharpton called the killing "atrocious" and said it shows a need for an "overhaul in police training." He said O'Neill's comments were "good and responsible" but should be the beginning of systematic change.

___

Associated Press writers Mike Balsamo, Jake Pearson, Frank Eltman and Kiley Armstrong contributed to this report.

 

-- © Associated Press 2016-10-20

[DM07]

So...a 66 year old woman, who was known to have episodes (because she has been taken to the hospital with the help of the police several times before, was attacking an officer with a baseball bat and for that, she had to be shot!

 Let's get this straight: the good deeds of the police, helping this woman's family with a stressful situation, get's complete destroyed, by one idiot, who is not able to use a taser or otherwise handle a grandmother!

 

Aha...I see: she was black, which turns a baseball- bat into a deadly weapon (Too much "The Walking Dead", maybe?!)!

[DM07]

14 minutes ago, Strange said:

 

Thats me! 

 

I dont know all the details, not condoning anything. I don't know how the laws are written in New York, as that state is a little country inside a country. I don't know if this was a "Lawful" shooting or not. 

 

HOWEVER

 

Assuming that it happened because she was black is some very low hanging fruit. 

What you know is

- the police has visited and helped this particular woman many times and she did not get shot!

- she is 66 years old and that makes her hardly a threat to a healthy and way younger police officer!

- she had a bat! Hardly a lethal weapon, even more so in the hands of a granny!

- he had a taser, but choose the gun!

- she was black and with the current epidemic of blacks being shot by mostly white cops, this is at least a point to think about!

 

Make up your own mind about "lawful" or not... 

[daveAustin]

On reading title, immediately thought, hope she's not black

[Strange]

26 minutes ago, Fithman said:

Are there any places in America where it is legal to gun down old ladies holding a bat ? 

 

Well yeah if they are using a bat in a way that constitutes a significant threat of serious bodily injury to the police officer or others. Not saying this was or was not the case in the OP, but yeah very much legal for the police OR myself to use deadly force. There is also police agency "Policy" regarding use of deadly force, but that only means termination of employment rather than a criminal case. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deadly_force

 

Quote

In the United States, the use of deadly force by sworn law enforcement officers is lawful when the officer reasonably believes the subject poses a significant threat of serious bodily injury or death to themselves or others. The use of deadly force by law enforcement is also lawful when used to prevent the escape of a fleeing felon when the officer believes escape would pose a significant threat of serious bodily injury or death to members of the public. Common law allowed officers to use any force necessary to effect a felony arrest but this was narrowed in the Tennessee v. Garner ruling in 1985 when the U.S. Supreme Court said that "deadly force...may not be used unless necessary to prevent the escape and the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a significant threat of death or serious bodily harm to the officer or others." ^[2]

 

[Jai Dee]

A number of troll posts and replies have been removed from this thread.

[Strange]

3 minutes ago, CharlieK said:

In the situation the OP talks about British police would have calmed the situation without the need to kill a 66 year old lady. It is sad you don't see the situation for what it is. You confirm that US police are cowards for having to use lethal force when it was not required.

 

Never have I defended what happened in the OP. Merely counterpointing a certain poster. I don't confirm anything. While this situation in the OP may or may not be lawful, wether it may or may not have been handled incorrectly, is not the point I'm making. The point I'm making is that while the story in the OP may be tragic, it is not, by far, any way to judge ALL police and ALL americans. 330,000,000 people. It would be great if everyone on both sides of the law actually FOLLOWED the law, but they don't and bad things can happen. Bad people exist. The news never reports on anything but tragedy. 

[Strange]

2 hours ago, DM07 said:

- she was black and with the current epidemic of blacks being shot by mostly white cops, this is at least a point to think about!

 

Make up your own mind about "lawful" or not... 

 

There is no "Current Epidemic" of blacks being shot by white cops. Please have a look at the statistics in their entirety. 

 

I can not decide if its "lawful" I can only decide, once I know all the details, how I personally feel about it. 

[yogi100]

If a so called police officer can't disarm an old lady brandishing a baseball bat then he should not be in the job. And if he thinks it's OK to kill her instead he should be arrested for murder. Race or colour should not come into it.

 

Whether we are to the right or left in politics know what's right and what's wrong.

[silent]

3 hours ago, Strange said:

 

Well yeah if they are using a bat in a way that constitutes a significant threat of serious bodily injury to the police officer or others. Not saying this was or was not the case in the OP, but yeah very much legal for the police OR myself to use deadly force. There is also police agency "Policy" regarding use of deadly force, but that only means termination of employment rather than a criminal case. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deadly_force

 

 

Do you mind me saying, if there's any truth to the accounting of what happened there, the old lady swung and missed. Not discounting the rules for deadly use of force, or as the Union themselves imply had the old lady hit him with her Babe Ruth like swing his skull might have been split open, shattered, could have been knocked clean off his shoulders! 

 

Does that not also imply that they had to be in close enough proximity that unless he was already prepared to use his deadly force, it would have made more sense to change the game from baseball to football considering the number of seconds it otherwise takes to aim and shoot?  In fairness, tackling the woman there would have probably been next to the last of my choices too, itf even on  the list. 

[Junkyarddog]

Now our cops are shooting and killing our grandmothers. Great just great. Who can possibly consider a 66 year old grandma a threat to your life, I don't care if she does have a bat? I'm not a young physically fit trained police officer but I bet you I could take a baseball bat away from my grandmother. I'm a white guy but based on the info in this article if this cop is not charged with murder, I hope the Blacks burn down New York City.

[transam]

1 minute ago, Junkyarddog said:

Now our cops are shooting and killing our grandmothers. Great just great. Who can possibly consider a 66 year old grandma a threat to your life, I don't care if she does have a bat? I'm not a young physically fit trained police officer but I bet you I could take a baseball bat away from my grandmother. I'm a white guy but based on the info in this article if this cop is not charged with murder, I hope the Blacks burn down New York City.

Another hang 'em high guy that was not there and seems doesn't like New York...

[copa8]

7 hours ago, Strange said:

 

There is no "Current Epidemic" of blacks being shot by white cops. Please have a look at the statistics in their entirety. 

 

I can not decide if its "lawful" I can only decide, once I know all the details, how I personally feel about it. 

 

True...unlike this: http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/real-time/Chinese-American-community-to-hold-large-anti-violence-rally-in-Center-City-Philadelphia.html

[Strange]

4 hours ago, Junkyarddog said:

Now our cops are shooting and killing our grandmothers. Great just great. Who can possibly consider a 66 year old grandma a threat to your life, I don't care if she does have a bat? I'm not a young physically fit trained police officer but I bet you I could take a baseball bat away from my grandmother. I'm a white guy but based on the info in this article if this cop is not charged with murder, I hope the Blacks burn down New York City.

 

Take it easy. Im sure if it was unlawful then he will be changed. Inciting violence and burning a city down over 1 cops actions isn't a good plan. 

[Grubster]

12 hours ago, DM07 said:

So...a 66 year old woman, who was known to have episodes (because she has been taken to the hospital with the help of the police several times before, was attacking an officer with a baseball bat and for that, she had to be shot!

 Let's get this straight: the good deeds of the police, helping this woman's family with a stressful situation, get's complete destroyed, by one idiot, who is not able to use a taser or otherwise handle a grandmother!

 

Aha...I see: she was black, which turns a baseball- bat into a deadly weapon (Too much "The Walking Dead", maybe?!)!

I am white and the same age and I could kill you with a swing that couldn't hit the ball to second base. Do you think a cop has his taser out at all times or what. They are trained to use their pistol fast in an urgent situation. I would much rather be attacked with a knife than a bat, how do you stop a bat?  Yes had she been white he would have taken the beating gracefully I'm sure. Stun guns do not always stop people. This stuff happens fast, but I'm sure you could do much better.

[Grubster]

11 hours ago, daveAustin said:

On reading title, immediately thought, hope she's not black

Or I hope he's not white.

[Grubster]

8 hours ago, yogi100 said:

If a so called police officer can't disarm an old lady brandishing a baseball bat then he should not be in the job. And if he thinks it's OK to kill her instead he should be arrested for murder. Race or colour should not come into it.

 

Whether we are to the right or left in politics know what's right and what's wrong.

I'm the same age would you care to stop me with a bat. I don't think so. One small thump on the head and your dead. You may break your arm defending the first swing but the next can or will be fatal.

[Baerboxer]

8 minutes ago, Grubster said:

I am white and the same age and I could kill you with a swing that couldn't hit the ball to second base. Do you think a cop has his taser out at all times or what. They are trained to use their pistol fast in an urgent situation. I would much rather be attacked with a knife than a bat, how do you stop a bat?  Yes had she been white he would have taken the beating gracefully I'm sure. Stun guns do not always stop people. This stuff happens fast, but I'm sure you could do much better.

 

It seems from the OP that the sergeant failed to follow the department policy. He should have retreated and called for the emergency response team and if he felt genuinely threatened and in imminent danger or that she was dangerous to others he had his taser. Using his gun should be absolute last result.

66 years old - the extremes of physical condition have wide parameters. Could have been big fit lady or small and frail - we don't know. But people with mental issues can get  unpredictable strength and behavior. 

Stopping someone with a bat, even you, can result in an unpleasant injury at best. But after one swing a younger fitter faster person should be able dependent on the attackers condition. A knife is likely to result in death much more easily than a blunt object btw. 

 

But the issue is, he didn't follow procedure, someone died and it must be investigated.

 

I saw nothing in the report to suggest racism was a motivating factor; or that the office would have reacted differently had the victim been white, hispanic or Asian. That seems your prejudiced assumption.

[Grubster]

6 hours ago, Junkyarddog said:

Now our cops are shooting and killing our grandmothers. Great just great. Who can possibly consider a 66 year old grandma a threat to your life, I don't care if she does have a bat? I'm not a young physically fit trained police officer but I bet you I could take a baseball bat away from my grandmother. I'm a white guy but based on the info in this article if this cop is not charged with murder, I hope the Blacks burn down New York City.

Well aint that nice I hope you find out some day what a 67 year old is capable of. I'm sure if you were there you would join in on the shopping spree.

[Grubster]

3 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

 

It seems from the OP that the sergeant failed to follow the department policy. He should have retreated and called for the emergency response team and if he felt genuinely threatened and in imminent danger or that she was dangerous to others he had his taser. Using his gun should be absolute last result.

66 years old - the extremes of physical condition have wide parameters. Could have been big fit lady or small and frail - we don't know. But people with mental issues can get  unpredictable strength and behavior. 

Stopping someone with a bat, even you, can result in an unpleasant injury at best. But after one swing a younger fitter faster person should be able dependent on the attackers condition. A knife is likely to result in death much more easily than a blunt object btw. 

 

But the issue is, he didn't follow procedure, someone died and it must be investigated.

 

I saw nothing in the report to suggest racism was a motivating factor; or that the office would have reacted differently had the victim been white, hispanic or Asian. That seems your prejudiced assumption.

I was replying to a post that said that the fact that she was black is what turned the bat into a deadly weapon, how did that turn into my prejudiced assumption? Policy is if your life is in danger use  deadly force, what don't you understand about that. He had just talked her into dropping a pair of scissors maybe he put his taser away, we don't know do we? When an officer is in danger he is primarily trained to go for the fastest and easiest line of defense, his/her gun. Do you really think these cops want to shoot people?

[yogi100]

43 minutes ago, Grubster said:

I am white and the same age and I could kill you with a swing that couldn't hit the ball to second base. Do you think a cop has his taser out at all times or what. They are trained to use their pistol fast in an urgent situation. I would much rather be attacked with a knife than a bat, how do you stop a bat?  Yes had she been white he would have taken the beating gracefully I'm sure. Stun guns do not always stop people. This stuff happens fast, but I'm sure you could do much better.

 

Are you also a grandmother.

[Johpa]

It is rather sorrowful that so many posters here are unfamiliar with Archimede's Law of the Lever.  I do not know the specifics of this particular case but I would consider anyone under the age of 80 who was about to strike my head with a swing of a baseball bat to be engaged in the use of deadly force against my person.

[Grubster]

1 minute ago, yogi100 said:

 

Are you also a grandmother.

Ok I give up, granny's cannot hurt you? Again I'm sure you could do much better. Just take the hit for Granny.

[yogi100]

14 minutes ago, Johpa said:

It is rather sorrowful that so many posters here are unfamiliar with Archimede's Law of the Lever.  I do not know the specifics of this particular case but I would consider anyone under the age of 80 who was about to strike my head with a swing of a baseball bat to be engaged in the use of deadly force against my person.

 

No one is going to just stand there and let an old girl clout him is he, he's a copper so he should be reasonably fit and if a sargeant should know how to behave responsibility.  He could just back away until she calms down. It's no reason to shoot her down like a dog.

 

Come on be fair, what do you think people are going to think when they read that report. Shooting an old lady because she was wielding a length of timber, which is basically all a basebat really is is disgraceful in any body's eyes and in any language.

Edited October 20, 2016 by yogi100

[Baerboxer]

33 minutes ago, Grubster said:

I was replying to a post that said that the fact that she was black is what turned the bat into a deadly weapon, how did that turn into my prejudiced assumption? Policy is if your life is in danger use  deadly force, what don't you understand about that. He had just talked her into dropping a pair of scissors maybe he put his taser away, we don't know do we? When an officer is in danger he is primarily trained to go for the fastest and easiest line of defense, his/her gun. Do you really think these cops want to shoot people?

 

He didn't follow his training or procedure. Period. Hard for you to understand? Hmm you can know that he would have reacted differently if she'd have been white and an old lady, a pensioner, wielding a pair of scissors or baseball bat is life threatening - to a trained experienced police sergeant.

No they are not trained to go for the deadliest - read the police commissioner's comments. 

 

Of course the circumstances aren't known, and must be investigated and made public. But what makes you think all police react differently to different racial groups?

[Grubster]

2 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

 

He didn't follow his training or procedure. Period. Hard for you to understand? Hmm you can know that he would have reacted differently if she'd have been white and an old lady, a pensioner, wielding a pair of scissors or baseball bat is life threatening - to a trained experienced police sergeant.

No they are not trained to go for the deadliest - read the police commissioner's comments. 

 

Of course the circumstances aren't known, and must be investigated and made public. But what makes you think all police react differently to different racial groups?

What did I say that prompted you to think that I think all police react differently to different racial groups? I responded to a racial comment but I never brought one up did I? I must say I am getting the feeling that race means a lot to you though. Yes police are trained to use deadly force when they are in fear for their life. These police can't sit around and think about this stuff it happens in seconds. Also have you always been a bigot, thinking that women are not equal, or does that only count for jobs? You also think 67 year olds are all very frail and could not possibly be a threat to a 40 year old, Do they have a name for people who treat their elders like this.

[Johpa]

11 minutes ago, yogi100 said:

 

No one is going to just stand there and let an old girl clout him is he, he's a copper so he should be reasonably fit and if a sargeant should know how to behave responsibility.  He could just back away until she calms down. It's no reason to shoot her down like a dog.

 

Come on be fair, what do you think people are going to think when they read that report. Shooting an old lady because she was wielding a length of timber, which is basically all a basebat really is is disgraceful in any body's eyes and in any language.

 

I was not responding to the specifics of this case rather to the claim by some here that a bat is not a deadly woman.  Whether in this specific instance there were clearly alternative lines of action that should have or could have been taken by the police officer relative to NYPD guidelines is something to be determined by a proper investigation and not decided by those with little specific knowledge such as the mayor, or the public, hours after the event.  I agree that the "optics" of this case on first observance do not look good for the officer. I disagree that a baseball bat is simply a length of timber, which most people would construe as a rectangular piece of relatively soft wood and not hard wood designed with a grip handle at one end and a larger mass at the working end.

[Strange]

10 hours ago, Baerboxer said:

But the issue is, he didn't follow procedure, someone died and it must be investigated.

 

What I'm reading through various news sites is that the people decrying the actions of the police in this situation are the "Politicians" and it looks like from a criminal standpoint the police officer is probably going to be cleared. 

 

With that said, if an investigation goes under way for breaking procedure, then thats probably going to be against his job, not  a criminal case. 

 

10 hours ago, Baerboxer said:

I saw nothing in the report to suggest racism was a motivating factor; or that the office would have reacted differently had the victim been white, hispanic or Asian. 

Contrary to popular belief, this is usually the case. 

[Grubster]

11 hours ago, Baerboxer said:

 

He didn't follow his training or procedure. Period. Hard for you to understand? Hmm you can know that he would have reacted differently if she'd have been white and an old lady, a pensioner, wielding a pair of scissors or baseball bat is life threatening - to a trained experienced police sergeant.

No they are not trained to go for the deadliest - read the police commissioner's comments. 

 

Of course the circumstances aren't known, and must be investigated and made public. But what makes you think all police react differently to different racial groups?

I have never once implied that race was a factor here but you have in every post. You have also said women are not equal, and that 67 year olds aren't either. I give the people I pay to protect us, the benefit of the doubt until I find out otherwise. I may very well find out otherwise in this case but not yet. You on the other hand have him hanging from a tree already.

[stevenl]

11 hours ago, Johpa said:

 

I was not responding to the specifics of this case rather to the claim by some here that a bat is not a deadly woman.  Whether in this specific instance there were clearly alternative lines of action that should have or could have been taken by the police officer relative to NYPD guidelines is something to be determined by a proper investigation and not decided by those with little specific knowledge such as the mayor, or the public, hours after the event.  I agree that the "optics" of this case on first observance do not look good for the officer. I disagree that a baseball bat is simply a length of timber, which most people would construe as a rectangular piece of relatively soft wood and not hard wood designed with a grip handle at one end and a larger mass at the working end.

I can honestly confirm that "a bat is not a deadly woman".