webfact Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 Libya: five years on from the death of Gaddafi TRIPOLI: -- Five years ago, the wave of anger that fuelled the Arab Spring revolutions in Egypt and Tunisia crashed into Libya. After several months of fierce fighting, anti-government rebels seized control of the capital Tripoli. Colonel Muammar Gaddafi sought refuge in his birthplace of Sirte. It turned out to be the scene of his deadly demise as he was lynched under the eyes of the world’s cameras. It was in response to Gaddafi’s bloody repression against the rebels and civilian deaths, that the US, Britain and France combined to enforce a UN-backed no-fly zone. But shortly after their intervention, militia’s once united by hatred of Gaddafi’s hard-line rule divided, giving birth to anarchy. Just shy of a year on, the killing of the US ambassador and three of his colleagues in Benghazi severely shocked the western coalition and spelled the end of their presence in the country. Five years on, Libya, like many others in the region, is plagued by radical Islamist militias, locked in a bitter power-struggle with the internationally recognised government, despite two general elections. The man who would be king Fayez Al Sarraj, who recently visited Paris, heads the Presidency Council and is prime minister. But officially he exercises control over little outside Tripoli and the west of Libya. The east falls under the domain of the so-called Tobruk government led by former General Khalifa Haftar from the national army, while the south is run by the Tuaregs. However, several other political factions have claimed their slice of Libya including the Toubou tribe; the pro-Tripoli government militia Farj Libya rules the west while Islamic State militants maintain control of a small but significant strips in the north. Various deals and settlements have been signed but none respected with the differing factions and political groups split over the latest unity government in Tripoli. Even Sarraj’s nomination as prime minister was widely seen as a compromise as he’s not affiliated to any group. Libya’s military muscle By contrast, Haftar, now a field marshal, has succeeded in slowly gaining military ground. Forces under his command have taken control of Libya’s main oil installations. He’s also been effective on the diplomatic front by persuading many army commanders and militia leaders to support his campaign – but his wider appeal remains limited because he was once a prominent figure in Gaddafi’s regime until he was exiled after falling out with the former dictator. Today, life in Libya for many ordinary people remains racked with violence. The country’s economy is in tatters and crucial services, like hospitals are struggling to provide care and assistance. The chaos has largely contributed to Europe’s migrant crisis and left western leaders to ponder over a failure to prepare for Gaddafi’s demise. -- © Copyright Euronews 2016-10-21 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coma Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 Let Libya be a lesson to those that wish to intervene in the Middle East. Western democracy is not needed or wanted. Stay away !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulysses G. Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 (edited) One of the stupidest bombing campaigns ever and it was pushed by Hillary Clinton. Gaddafi was finally under control and had renounced nukes and we had already screwed up in other places. What a mess! Edited October 21, 2016 by Ulysses G. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pakboong Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 There was a time that we rose up against a "Domino Theory" now we are busy creating our own version of this same idea. If it was bad then, it has to be bad now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grubster Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 3 hours ago, coma said: Let Libya be a lesson to those that wish to intervene in the Middle East. Western democracy is not needed or wanted. Stay away !! True but letting a man who orchestrated a terror attack killing hundreds, live the rest of his life in the lap of luxury is not a very good message to send the world either. I am with you on keeping our nose out of these uprisings and the like would surly lead to a better result. I couldn't care less who rules these countries. They would surely keep themselves busy killing each other and would be little threat to us if we kept our nose out. I think it is all about the big money making war machine. I guess our countries are so perfect that we need to spend our tax dollars elsewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laughing Gravy Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 (edited) As one of the people in my avatar would have said "that's another fine mess you have got me into". Edited October 21, 2016 by Laughing Gravy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honthy Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 One of the main "exporter " of Western Democracy has tried to help countries, like Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, Lybia, Tunis. With the exception of Iran, the situation was far much better than after helping them. Gaddafi and Saddam were really prospective leaders had one mistakes only; they wanted to get rid of the "rules" of doing business in Petro-Dollar, which at the end of the day nothing more than private revenue of Rothschild.... See clearly, no super-nations, no globalism, no new order will be accepted for long time. On the other hand the above list shows GI.Joes have never ever won serious war and obviously weak when he has to fight against a whole country. ( Sergei too) Recent incidents show that these Democracy pushers are in fact confused in their own country... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigt3365 Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 5 hours ago, coma said: Let Libya be a lesson to those that wish to intervene in the Middle East. Western democracy is not needed or wanted. Stay away !! Agreed. But these problems were started by the Arab Spring uprisings. So obviously, there were problems. Perhaps something like Monacos form of government would work. Sadly, things can't stay the way they are. It's not working. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigt3365 Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 5 hours ago, Ulysses G. said: One of the stupidest bombing campaigns ever and it was pushed by Hillary Clinton. Gaddafi was finally under control and had renounced nukes and we had already screwed up in other places. What a mess! Agreed! But didn't this mess start by the people protesting against a brutal dictator? Then spiral out of control from there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigt3365 Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 1 hour ago, Honthy said: One of the main "exporter " of Western Democracy has tried to help countries, like Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, Lybia, Tunis. With the exception of Iran, the situation was far much better than after helping them. Gaddafi and Saddam were really prospective leaders had one mistakes only; they wanted to get rid of the "rules" of doing business in Petro-Dollar, which at the end of the day nothing more than private revenue of Rothschild.... See clearly, no super-nations, no globalism, no new order will be accepted for long time. On the other hand the above list shows GI.Joes have never ever won serious war and obviously weak when he has to fight against a whole country. ( Sergei too) Recent incidents show that these Democracy pushers are in fact confused in their own country... Korea is doing fantastic. Vietnam is doing pretty good. Not so sure democracy was ever the number one priority in Afghanistan. Libya and Tunisia started with the Arab Spring, like several others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krataiboy Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 If the US Presidential elections are a demonstration of where democracy leads, the Americans should stop trying to export the stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKfarang Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 I basically agree with the other comments thus far. The military industrial complex has taken control of my government's policies and actions abroad. The US has invested so heavily in the military (to the severe detriment of the national debt) that war and military action has become their "solution" to everything. Just wait until they start using it in attempts to obtain clean water, food and other basic necessities. Hopefully I will be gone by then but still feel terrible about the fate of younger and future generations. It didn't have to turn out this way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krataiboy Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 More predictable Western propaganda from the usual unreliable source. Is this the best ThaiVisa can do in terms of balanced reporting? Gaddafi was no angel, but under his control Libyans enjoyed a higher standard of living than the vast majority of countries in the region, with free health and education for all equal rights for women. For a more objective view of the pros and cons of Libya under the Colonel and now, try this link: http://www.globalresearch.ca/destroying-a-country-s-standard-of-living-what-libya-had-achieved-what-has-been-destroyed/26686 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honthy Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 Korea... South Korea is working, North is an other issue, but if I remember the goal of the military movements were to sweep the communists out. Same in Vietnam and it is communist now. And yes, democracy and stopping the production of opium were the published reason. Since the opium export of the country has not decreased by a single gram, everyone can check it on the net, it would be questionable to open any debate about the success. Finally, The Arab Spring is nothing but weakening the surrounding countries and the published reason was the lack of democracy. Worth to read articles back. The so called Western Democracy is a phantom, existing on papers. No country can say that democracy, any democracy is existing in its land. Nice on papers, never works, just like communism........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coma Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 53 minutes ago, craigt3365 said: Agreed. But these problems were started by the Arab Spring uprisings. So obviously, there were problems. The Arab spring turned into a long summer due to western intervention IMO. Yes, there were problems but they needed to be sorted out by themselves and their neighbours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morch Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 25 minutes ago, Krataiboy said: More predictable Western propaganda from the usual unreliable source. Is this the best ThaiVisa can do in terms of balanced reporting? Gaddafi was no angel, but under his control Libyans enjoyed a higher standard of living than the vast majority of countries in the region, with free health and education for all equal rights for women. For a more objective view of the pros and cons of Libya under the Colonel and now, try this link: http://www.globalresearch.ca/destroying-a-country-s-standard-of-living-what-libya-had-achieved-what-has-been-destroyed/26686 Globalresearch can hardly be called a reliable source, same goes for claiming that the author (Michel Chossudovsky) is objective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicog Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 5 hours ago, Ulysses G. said: One of the stupidest bombing campaigns ever and it was pushed by Hillary Clinton. Gaddafi was finally under control and had renounced nukes and we had already screwed up in other places. What a mess! I don't think it would have made any difference if he'd been left to his own devices. All Gadaffi was doing is what Assad was and is doing now: Slaughtering his own people. It may be that the logical thing to do would have been to let him exterminate all those Libyans who were sick of his dictatorship, but it wasn't the human thing to do. I think he had to be stopped, but not enough thought was put into the consequences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerome2 Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 (edited) We tried to help them and could not imagine that they cannot live together we should have taken Kadafi out and threthen to bring him back in power if they could not get along together history shows everywhere a bad is folloed by worse staline Ghandi's independence ... if he knew there is still cast killing and 3 wars with pakistan he d call back england ...Napoleon Mao congo etc Edited October 21, 2016 by jerome2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaidream Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 As an American I am appalled by some of the things the Us Government does in the name of 'Democracy'. To his credit, President Obama has attempted to move America away from its interventionist profile and neocon philosophy. The American military and intelligence budgets are way out of line. the US defense budget is $632 Billion -the largest in the World- and they want more. The 25 US intelligence agencies budgets are in the billions but the exact amount remains classified. These budgets are not sustainable and must be cut as well as the US presence overseas. Intervention anywhere in the Middle East must be avoided. As America becomes more independent in energy- there is no strategic reason for any intervention. While Americans continue to be taxed to support all of these huge budgets- Insurance companies and BigPharma are raising prices on health care to levels that are not affordable for the average citizen; A university degree costs so much that a student becomes an indentured servant to the State for 20 years to pay back student loans; and Senior citizens have just been awarded a cost of living increase for 2017 of .03% which will put an extra $5.00 per month in their pension while their healthcare costs go up as much as 20%. The current Presidential election will probavly cost $1 Billion to elect a President who will do nothing for the American people. Is this the best that a so called democratic country can produce? The Bush regime completely overreacted to the 9-11 tragedy setting up a 'camp' in Guantanamo Cuba and using torture and picking up 'suspected' terrorists off the street and whisking them away to other unknow detention camps. The so called Patriot Act is another misnomer -allowing the Government to become involved in every aspect of a person's life. Every time a citizen protests these provisions- the wagons circle and the powers that be hide behind 'national security'. Is this the legacy that we leave to our children? My father and the fathers and grandfathers of almost every nationality stood together at one time during World War Two so as to rid the World of tyranny. I doubt any of them would be happy seeing what greed and selfishness has wrought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laughing Gravy Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 It is a shame what has happened to Libya. take away the leader from 5 years ago, you have a financially stable country, good health service, housing, you could borrow money from the Banks for marriage at 0% and also the education system wasn't too bad for an Arab country. What have you now. A complete and utter s**t hole. The place is a mess and tribal fighting is ensuring that the country is going down the same route as Iraq and Afghanistan. Does anyone see a pattern there? Thanks to the UK, USA coalition we have created a complete an utter mess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morch Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 On past topics, there were some descriptions from posters who actually lived and worked in Libya during the time of the supposed Gaddafi's "Golden Age". Their accounts did not wholly support the views repeated on this topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicog Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 18 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said: It is a shame what has happened to Libya. take away the leader from 5 years ago, you have a financially stable country, good health service, housing, you could borrow money from the Banks for marriage at 0% and also the education system wasn't too bad for an Arab country. What have you now. A complete and utter s**t hole. The place is a mess and tribal fighting is ensuring that the country is going down the same route as Iraq and Afghanistan. Does anyone see a pattern there? Thanks to the UK, USA coalition we have created a complete an utter mess. You seem to have a blind spot about Gadaffi unleashing his military on anti-government protestors across the country. If life was as rosy as you seem to think it was, why on earth do you think so many people started rebelling? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elgordo38 Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 7 hours ago, coma said: Let Libya be a lesson to those that wish to intervene in the Middle East. Western democracy is not needed or wanted. Stay away !! Yes 5 years on and like Iraq you killed the guy that was the glue that held everything together. Interesting to see 5 years later where that got both you and Iraq. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asiantravel Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 2 hours ago, craigt3365 said: Agreed! But didn't this mess start by the people protesting against a brutal dictator? Then spiral out of control from there. which people exactly said he was a brutal dictator? To many by accusing him of such would be shooting themselves in the foot financially don't you think? https://urbantimes.co/2014/05/libya-under-gaddafi/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laughing Gravy Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 14 minutes ago, Chicog said: If life was as rosy as you seem to think it was, why on earth do you think so many people started rebelling? Where did I say it was rosy? Life was certainly better than it is now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laughing Gravy Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 39 minutes ago, Chicog said: You seem to have a blind spot about Gadaffi unleashing his military on anti-government protestors across the country Not at all. like Iraq and Afghanistan if you know the Arab countries they are comprised of tribes. These tribes are all after gaining more power/land, killing their enemies and taking control. I am not in agreement with Gadhafi, Saddam or any other Arab leader but can now see why the West bankrolled them, to keep the area as stable as possible. Ever since the boundaries of Arabia where set in the early 1900s the place has been volatile. The way these countries whether rightly or wrongly operate is under a tight regime. If not there would be mass slaughter and anarchy in the area. Countries would have to be rewritten and then the whole ideology of Israel would come into play. Basically the Arabs do not get on with other Arabs. Before anyone says no then just look at the middle east as a whole. Muslim fighting other muslims, alas from a different sect. But still fighting each other. The only way there will be peace is if the slate was wiped clean and we it started from scratch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KBsinter Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 2 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said: Basically the Arabs do not get on with other Arabs. Before anyone says no then just look at the middle east as a whole. Muslim fighting other muslims, alas from a different sect. But still fighting each other. The only way there will be peace is if the slate was wiped clean and we it started from scratch. Bloody right, let them get on with it,when will the west learn there lesson............... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
copa8 Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 7 hours ago, craigt3365 said: Korea is doing fantastic. Vietnam is doing pretty good. Not so sure democracy was ever the number one priority in Afghanistan. Libya and Tunisia started with the Arab Spring, like several others. Millions of innocent civilians in both Korea and Vietnam died, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigt3365 Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 8 hours ago, Asiantravel said: which people exactly said he was a brutal dictator? To many by accusing him of such would be shooting themselves in the foot financially don't you think? https://urbantimes.co/2014/05/libya-under-gaddafi/ I guess it depends on how you want to view things. Many didn't have a good experience with him. Those who hate the West, seem to extol his virtyes. http://www.iol.co.za/news/africa/the-terrible-truth-about-gaddafis-harem-1596885 Quote The horror started with the lightest of touches. As the 15-year-old schoolgirl held out the bouquet to the 62-year-old man, he took her free hand and kissed it gently. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/jun/18/muammar-gaddafi-war-crimes-files http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-14673864 Relatives of those killed in the Pan Am flight 103 probably aren't sad to see him gone. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_Am_Flight_103 Nor is the nanny for his family. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2066476/Shweyga-Mullah-Gaddafi-nanny-scalded-boiling-water-arrives-Malta-treatment.html But other than these and many other atrocities, life was good under his rule. LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigt3365 Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 10 hours ago, coma said: The Arab spring turned into a long summer due to western intervention IMO. Yes, there were problems but they needed to be sorted out by themselves and their neighbours. The Arab Spring was not fueled by the West. Other than by the desire of those under the rule of brutal dictators for a better life, such as we have in the West. Can't blame the West for all the world's problems. IMHO, the biggest problem in the ME is Saudi Arabia and Iran. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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