May ready for tough talks over Brexit

[Flustered]

9 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Like many you do not consider the context of a comment, just open your mouth.

My comment was in response to a reference regarding RSRE Malvern. Please point out what part of your post pertained to that reference. 

Boy, someone has got out of bed the wrong side today.

 

I responded to the Malvern question very politiely but as Scott has warned us all to stick to subject, I added comments on the Brexit issues so as to keep to topic.

 

No where did I miss quote you, make irrelevant comments or offend you so why the antagonistic attitude?

[pitrevie]

24 minutes ago, Flustered said:

You have obviously never been involved in negotiating large contracts.

 

You do not keep on drip feeding the current state of affairs for all to see that makes it impossible for the negotiating team to do their job properly.  Negotiations take place behind closed doors, the teams being briefed on their remit and the final results are then submitted for approval by those in charge.

 

TM is doing this in a professional and correct manner unlike the amateurs in Brussels who are making a mockery of the process.

 

Brussels are out to destroy these talks before they even get underway just to warn off any other country who wants to take back it's sovereign rights.

If that is the case why would the opposite side in those negotiations not want the same confidentiality. Instead they will be keeping their Parliament informed of any progress and seeking their approval. 

We are not talking about a commercial contract which might be leaked to interested competing third parties there are only two parties to this what is there to be secretive about. Lets hear about much we will have to pay if anything what so secretive about that. If Brussels reject some position put forward by the UK government lets know about it what is there to be afraid of having these negotiations put to the democratic UK Parliament if the EU can put it to their undemocratic Parliament.

That way we can see who is being obstructive or trying to destroy these talks Strange that you don't think so.

[pitrevie]

8 minutes ago, Basil B said:

Who is doing the leaking???

 

Do not forget we have an election in 36 days.

 

Brussels trying to scare the British electorate to vote against the Tory's and a hard brexit or Tory's trying to get the electorate anti Europe and voting for Maggie May???

Nothing to do with the negotiations it will be many months after the election before we know what is happening so I don't see how that is going to affect the election.

However lets know which side is doing what and being obstructive and unreasonable what on earth are you afraid of. If the EU can keep their side informed why cant we?

[Flustered]

The EU have two issues. They have to report to 27 countries about what is happening and they have no interest in the UK getting a good deal.

 

The best way to do this is to keep on drip feeding reports to the media in the hope that we will simply give up and go away. They feel that the blame will be on the UK and Europe will go it's merry way without us.

 

Considering that it is accepted that countries like Germany, Poland and Spain will suffer far more than us, this is rather self defeating.

 

Just shows you how amateurish the EU heads are.

[pitrevie]

2 minutes ago, Flustered said:

The EU have two issues. They have to report to 27 countries about what is happening and they have no interest in the UK getting a good deal.

 

The best way to do this is to keep on drip feeding reports to the media in the hope that we will simply give up and go away. They feel that the blame will be on the UK and Europe will go it's merry way without us.

 

Considering that it is accepted that countries like Germany, Poland and Spain will suffer far more than us, this is rather self defeating.

 

Just shows you how amateurish the EU heads are.

Well the more its out in the open the better then we can see who is being obstructive, unreasonable and amateurish. Why keep it behind closed doors until its all over. I seem to recall from my time in the forces this was related in some way to growing mushrooms

[Khun Han]

48 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

56 minutes ago, 3NUMBAS said:

The divorce bill has now climbed to 100 billion so it's not gonna happen ...Plus they want farm payments for years after leaving so determined are they to keep screwing the UK for cash payments till kingdom come 

It does appear as if the EU is doing its best to force the UK into an immediate, hard brexit .

 

Having said that, its all talk to suit their agenda - and things are likely to change once May is elected with a (likely) even larger majority and serious negotiating starts.

 

What the EU is trying to extort from us in order to keep themselves solvent, and what we actually owe them (not very much) are two distant galaxies. Where this will end up is either Germany (what the EU is really all about) digging deep into it's pockets and taking an economic downturn in order to prop the EU up, or the EU countries that most rely on trade with the UK being cast aside in favour of Germany keeping it's wallet in it's pocket (though Germany will still take a heavy hit to it's large export market to the UK). Either way, as I have said previously, we will see Germany's true colours over the next couple of years.

[Khun Han]

19 minutes ago, Flustered said:

32 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Like many you do not consider the context of a comment, just open your mouth.

My comment was in response to a reference regarding RSRE Malvern. Please point out what part of your post pertained to that reference. 

Boy, someone has got out of bed the wrong side today.

 

I responded to the Malvern question very politiely but as Scott has warned us all to stick to subject, I added comments on the Brexit issues so as to keep to topic.

 

No where did I miss quote you, make irrelevant comments or offend you so why the antagonistic attitude?

 

He gets out of bed the wrong side every morning .

[Flustered]

8 minutes ago, pitrevie said:

Well the more its out in the open the better then we can see who is being obstructive, unreasonable and amateurish. Why keep it behind closed doors until its all over. I seem to recall from my time in the forces this was related in some way to growing mushrooms

Don't take my word on not showing your hand during negotiations. It is one of the most basic fundamentals in negotiating.

 

The following link cannot be accused of being biased towards any side.

 

https://www.pon.harvard.edu/daily/negotiation-skills-daily/when-not-to-show-your-hand/

[dick dasterdly]

21 minutes ago, pitrevie said:

If that is the case why would the opposite side in those negotiations not want the same confidentiality. Instead they will be keeping their Parliament informed of any progress and seeking their approval. 

We are not talking about a commercial contract which might be leaked to interested competing third parties there are only two parties to this what is there to be secretive about. Lets hear about much we will have to pay if anything what so secretive about that. If Brussels reject some position put forward by the UK government lets know about it what is there to be afraid of having these negotiations put to the democratic UK Parliament if the EU can put it to their undemocratic Parliament.

That way we can see who is being obstructive or trying to destroy these talks Strange that you don't think so.

"If that is the case why would the opposite side in those negotiations not want the same confidentiality. Instead they will be keeping their Parliament informed of any progress and seeking their approval. "

 

Reminds me of the old quip 'if you believe that, then I have a bridge to sell you'.....

 

I doubt you genuinely believe that the EU negotiators will be talking much about negotiations once serious negotiations start, in the same way UK negotiators will be keeping mostly quiet.  Obviously, both sides will release snippets of information if they think it will support their 'cause'.

[Grouse]

47 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Like many you do not consider the context of a comment, just open your mouth.

My comment was in response to a reference regarding RSRE Malvern. Please point out what part of your post pertained to that reference. 

And which parts of Malvern are close to East Germany as was. Signalling error?

[pitrevie]

1 minute ago, Flustered said:

Don't take my word on not showing your hand during negotiations. It is one of the most basic fundamentals in negotiating.

 

The following link cannot be accused of being biased towards any side.

 

https://www.pon.harvard.edu/daily/negotiation-skills-daily/when-not-to-show-your-hand/

Well since the other side will be informing the EU Parliament whose agreement they need before they can finalise a deal its somewhat academic.

We will be able to rely on the EU side to see exactly who is being obstructive or unreasonable what more could we ask for.

I just think its hilarious that its the Europeans that want everything out in the open and above board and its the UK that wants it all kept in the dark.

[pitrevie]

3 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

"If that is the case why would the opposite side in those negotiations not want the same confidentiality. Instead they will be keeping their Parliament informed of any progress and seeking their approval. "

 

Reminds me of the old quip 'if you believe that, then I have a bridge to sell you'.....

 

I doubt you genuinely believe that the EU negotiators will be talking much about negotiations once serious negotiations start, in the same way UK negotiators will be keeping mostly quiet.  Obviously, both sides will release snippets of information if they think it will support their 'cause'.

Well it appears so, they have to get the agreement of the EU Parliament whereas May doesn't have the same constraints with her majority she will push any agreement or lack of one through Parliament with us being none the wiser how we reached that position. However I can see that we have a lot of supporters here of Sir Humphrey Appleby

[dick dasterdly]

12 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

What the EU is trying to extort from us in order to keep themselves solvent, and what we actually owe them (not very much) are two distant galaxies. Where this will end up is either Germany (what the EU is really all about) digging deep into it's pockets and taking an economic downturn in order to prop the EU up, or the EU countries that most rely on trade with the UK being cast aside in favour of Germany keeping it's wallet in it's pocket (though Germany will still take a heavy hit to it's large export market to the UK). Either way, as I have said previously, we will see Germany's true colours over the next couple of years.

You may well be right and calculations have been done within the EU that have made them realise how much is needed from the UK to keep the EU solvent.  At the moment I'm prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt that its just scaremongering - whilst not being sure which is the worst explanation!

 

Agree entirely that what the UK actually owes them, and the EU's 'divorce' demands are two distant galaxies .

[Orac]

Don't take my word on not showing your hand during negotiations. It is one of the most basic fundamentals in negotiating.
 
The following link cannot be accused of being biased towards any side.
 
https://www.pon.harvard.edu/daily/negotiation-skills-daily/when-not-to-show-your-hand/

This all appears to be related to sharing or divulging information between counterparties in a deal rather than providing information to the general public after they have already being shared during negotiations and, as yet, will have no direct input into the outcome of those negotiations.

[sandyf]

18 minutes ago, pitrevie said:

Nothing to do with the negotiations it will be many months after the election before we know what is happening so I don't see how that is going to affect the election.

However lets know which side is doing what and being obstructive and unreasonable what on earth are you afraid of. If the EU can keep their side informed why cant we?

The real problem here is a fundamental difference in perception of the situation.

The EU appears to consider itself as some form of club where one of the members has chosen to leave. It would not be unreasonable for any club to expect 'assets' belonging to the club to be returned or that the good name of the club not be brought into disrepute.

The UK however appears to relate itself to that of an employer where the employee(EU) has been summarily dismissed with no entitlement to compensation.

 

The election is of little consequence in the overall scheme of things, the EU has set its stall out and the 'strength of TM's hand' is nothing more than self delusion.

Unfortunately the country as a whole will pay the price for her arrogance and intransigence.

 

Theresa May has warned Jean Claude Juncker that he is about to find out how much of a “bloody difficult woman” she is following reports that he claimed she is delusional over Brexit.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-eu-chief-jean-claude-juncker-bloody-difficult-woman-brexit-talks-commission-a7713866.html

[Flustered]

5 minutes ago, Grouse said:

And which parts of Malvern are close to East Germany as was. Signalling error?

Sincere apologies for being off subject but this has to be put to bed.

 

Grouse and I were talking about some establishments that unless you were part of them, you would have very little idea of how and where they operated or connected or what they did. It was a small lateral issue, semi related to the subject in that it referred to a time gone by in Europe that is missed by many and will never be the same again under the current circumstances with the EU. Any thread can and will deviate slightly as questions are asked and answered.

 

Unfortunately, someone jumped on the bandwagon and turned it into an issue  for reasons unknown.

[dick dasterdly]

26 minutes ago, pitrevie said:

Well the more its out in the open the better then we can see who is being obstructive, unreasonable and amateurish. Why keep it behind closed doors until its all over. I seem to recall from my time in the forces this was related in some way to growing mushrooms

 

12 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

"If that is the case why would the opposite side in those negotiations not want the same confidentiality. Instead they will be keeping their Parliament informed of any progress and seeking their approval. "

 

Reminds me of the old quip 'if you believe that, then I have a bridge to sell you'.....

 

I doubt you genuinely believe that the EU negotiators will be talking much about negotiations once serious negotiations start, in the same way UK negotiators will be keeping mostly quiet.  Obviously, both sides will release snippets of information if they think it will support their 'cause'.

 

5 minutes ago, pitrevie said:

Well it appears so, they have to get the agreement of the EU Parliament whereas May doesn't have the same constraints with her majority she will push any agreement or lack of one through Parliament with us being none the wiser how we reached that position. However I can see that we have a lot of supporters here of Sir Humphrey Appleby

I'm missing something here obviously.

 

Do you seriously believe that the EU negotiators will be talking about ongoing negotiations once talks start in earnest?  Or do you think they will play their cards close to their hand until a final agreement (or no agreement) is reached?

[dick dasterdly]

7 minutes ago, sandyf said:

The real problem here is a fundamental difference in perception of the situation.

The EU appears to consider itself as some form of club where one of the members has chosen to leave. It would not be unreasonable for any club to expect 'assets' belonging to the club to be returned or that the good name of the club not be brought into disrepute.

The UK however appears to relate itself to that of an employer where the employee(EU) has been summarily dismissed with no entitlement to compensation.

 

The election is of little consequence in the overall scheme of things, the EU has set its stall out and the 'strength of TM's hand' is nothing more than self delusion.

Unfortunately the country as a whole will pay the price for her arrogance and intransigence.

 

Theresa May has warned Jean Claude Juncker that he is about to find out how much of a “bloody difficult woman” she is following reports that he claimed she is delusional over Brexit.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-eu-chief-jean-claude-juncker-bloody-difficult-woman-brexit-talks-commission-a7713866.html

"The EU appears to consider itself as some form of club where one of the members has chosen to leave. It would not be unreasonable for any club to expect 'assets' belonging to the club to be returned or that the good name of the club not be brought into disrepute."

 

Can't argue against this (if I understand correctly), but in the same vein a leaving member who had paid towards the club's assets would expect to receive fair compensation for those assets when they leave.

[pitrevie]

Just now, dick dasterdly said:

 

 

I'm missing something here obviously.

 

Do you seriously believe that the EU negotiators will be talking about ongoing negotiations once talks start in earnest?  Or do you think they will play their cards close to their hand until a final agreement (or no agreement) is reached?

Unlike some on here who seem to know exactly what we owe or not etc as the case may be,  I have no idea. However this statement seems to suggest there is no chance of them remaining confidential.

May wanted to work through the Brexit talks in monthly, 4-day blocks; all confidential until the end of the process. Commission said impossible to reconcile this with need to square off member states & European Parliament, so documents must be published.

 

Also I think both sides will leak as and when they see it to their advantage.

 

However the more it is in the open the better, lets all see who is being unreasonable and obstructive what is there to object about that?

[dick dasterdly]

12 minutes ago, sandyf said:

The real problem here is a fundamental difference in perception of the situation.

The EU appears to consider itself as some form of club where one of the members has chosen to leave. It would not be unreasonable for any club to expect 'assets' belonging to the club to be returned or that the good name of the club not be brought into disrepute.

The UK however appears to relate itself to that of an employer where the employee(EU) has been summarily dismissed with no entitlement to compensation.

 

The election is of little consequence in the overall scheme of things, the EU has set its stall out and the 'strength of TM's hand' is nothing more than self delusion.

Unfortunately the country as a whole will pay the price for her arrogance and intransigence.

 

Theresa May has warned Jean Claude Juncker that he is about to find out how much of a “bloody difficult woman” she is following reports that he claimed she is delusional over Brexit.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-eu-chief-jean-claude-juncker-bloody-difficult-woman-brexit-talks-commission-a7713866.html

I agree that the EU has "set out its stall", but think its the EU that is delusional with its ridiculous demands - not May who (so far) has only looked for a quick agreement on EU citizens in the UK/UK citizens in the EU rights.  Not to mention I've no doubt the EU will very quicly change its attitude when May (likely) increases her majority after the election!

 

Although admittedly, she also pointed out (quite rightly) that the EU 'wish list' was delusional and a non-starter from the UK point of view.

[dick dasterdly]

6 minutes ago, pitrevie said:

Unlike some on here who seem to know exactly what we owe or not etc as the case may be,  I have no idea. However this statement seems to suggest there is no chance of them remaining confidential.

May wanted to work through the Brexit talks in monthly, 4-day blocks; all confidential until the end of the process. Commission said impossible to reconcile this with need to square off member states & European Parliament, so documents must be published.

 

Also I think both sides will leak as and when they see it to their advantage.

 

However the more it is in the open the better, lets all see who is being unreasonable and obstructive what is there to object about that?

I'm still not sure what you are saying.

 

Do you think EU negotiators will say nothing (other than snippets that they believe will benefit them) - or that they will report everything to the EU parliament (and consequently the media) during negotiations?

[pitrevie]

6 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

I'm still not sure what you are saying.

 

Do you think EU negotiators will say nothing (other than snippets that they believe will benefit them) - or that they will report everything to the EU parliament (and consequently the media) during negotiations?

well I thought the quote said it all, "so documents must be published."

[sandyf]

15 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

I agree that the EU has "set out its stall", but think its the EU that is delusional with its ridiculous demands - not May who (so far) has only looked for a quick agreement on EU citizens in the UK/UK citizens in the EU rights.  Not to mention I've no doubt the EU will very quicly change its attitude when May (likely) increases her majority after the election!

 

Although admittedly, she also pointed out (quite rightly) that the EU 'wish list' was delusional and a non-starter from the UK point of view.

Time will tell, it usually does.

I fail to see how the government majority has any bearing on the matter, if majority was ever an issue in the EU negotiations she would have called the election the day after becoming PM.

At the end of the day why should the EU compromise its position, there are 27 member states out to protect their own interests, its for the UK the bell tolls, or I should say the clock ticks.

This concept of the EU need the UK is a myth. Cost saving measures and free trade have brought stores like Lidl, Aldi and Netto to the UK high street but once the customs regime kicks in they will look for greener pastures on mainland Europe. Will it bother them or us, very unlikely. 

Once out of the EU, the trade figures will take on a different complexion entirely.

[Flustered]

Europe is saturated with small scale supermarkets. Places like Spain and Poland carry out protectionism regardless of EU directives so any German company leaving the UK is lost revenue. there are no available slots in the EU countries for them to re establish the lost income stream. You do not have to be a brain surgeon to work that out (although some people could do with some). Aldi and Lidl moving is day dreaming, they will simply go on like anyone else. If there were greener pastures in the EU they would already have exploited them. Duh. Next time anyone goes to Aldi or Lidl, have a look at how much locally resourced produce they have....nearly all from Germany and other EU countries..More EU imports into the UK.

 

Looking at the 100 billion Euros. It's quiet easy to see why they want it. Over the next 10 years, the UK would have paid in some 100 Billion Euros in net contributions to the EU social club. This takes into account any rebate or hand back of our own money we get. Now countries like Germany and France will have to stump up the lions share of it and other countries like Ireland will no longer benefit and have to pay in.

 

Hard Brexit is looking very attractive.

[pitrevie]

10 minutes ago, Flustered said:

Europe is saturated with small scale supermarkets. Places like Spain and Poland carry out protectionism regardless of EU directives so any German company leaving the UK is lost revenue. there are no available slots in the EU countries for them to re establish the lost income stream. You do not have to be a brain surgeon to work that out (although some people could do with some). Aldi and Lidl moving is day dreaming, they will simply go on like anyone else. If there were greener pastures in the EU they would already have exploited them. Duh. Next time anyone goes to Aldi or Lidl, have a look at how much locally resourced produce they have....nearly all from Germany and other EU countries..More EU imports into the UK.

 

Looking at the 100 billion Euros. It's quiet easy to see why they want it. Over the next 10 years, the UK would have paid in some 100 Billion Euros in net contributions to the EU social club. This takes into account any rebate or hand back of our own money we get. Now countries like Germany and France will have to stump up the lions share of it and other countries like Ireland will no longer benefit and have to pay in.

 

Hard Brexit is looking very attractive.

Yeah it sounds all so easy doesn't it what have we got to lose.

 

It reminds me of that old weather forecast.

 

Fog covers most of Europe, the continent is isolated.

[Grouse]

It's all falling in to place as I predicted.

 

The Con Party don't want a deal. They want what is now euphemistically called "clean" Brexit. The EU will be set up as intransigent and therefore the Cons have no choice.

 

I honestly believe that the EU is basically ambivalent. They just don't really care. The EU community is what matters. Porsche, BMW and Mercedes will be reassuringly more expensive. 

 

As for the dunderheeds ( note no N word!). They will of course be stuffed. Workers rights demolished, environmental regulations torn up a la Trump. Rising inequality.

 

BUT GREAT FOR EQUITIES!! Tally Ho! Pass the Bolly!

 

(BTW does one pass the port left to right? Or right to left? I can't remember! Good time to get some decent stuff laid down? Port that is....)

Edited May 3, 2017 by Grouse

[Grouse]

Ah hem!

 

As I was saying....

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/theresa-may-general-election-five-more-years-tories-corbyn-labour-what-actually-mean-a7715181.html

[Naam]

2 hours ago, Flustered said:

Looking at the 100 billion Euros. It's quiet easy to see why they want it. Over the next 10 years, the UK would have paid in some 100 Billion Euros in net contributions to the EU social club.

https://www.ft.com/content/cc7eed42-2f49-11e7-9555-23ef563ecf9a

[evadgib]

Made me chuckle 

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-politics-39794410/tim-farron-tackled-by-leave-voter

[Scott]

One post has been removed.   You are reminded to keep your remarks civil and on topic.   Personal remarks aimed at other members is not permitted.