May ready for tough talks over Brexit

[mommysboy]

We will see but the reality of Brexit negotiations will not change.  UK's negotiating stance is laughable which is why EU has responded in kind imo.  I think one is deluded to think that there is the opportunity for some clever brinksmanship.  Reality presents a simple choice: stay in as at present, or go unilaterally with all the attendant hardship.

 

As an aside, the striking aspect of UK p[olitics is the incredible mono focus, and black and white thinking.  Now, presented with a genuine situation which is one way, and as distinct as one can get, we see nothing but hesitancy.

 

I imagine a lot of this comes from the fact that in dropping out, we get what only a few hardliners want: pyrrhic victory defined.  My conclusion is that Brexit is simply not feasible... and that is just the way it is.

 

 

Edited April 29, 2017 by mommysboy

[nontabury]

So far the negotiations seem to be based on threats coming out of the mouths of the unelected Bureacrats in Brussels. Yet some people wonder why the Brits voted to leave. Surely these utterances must put doubts into the minds of the most ardent Remoaners.

Unless of course they have something to gain,by remaining in this so-called Union.

 

 

[onthesoi]

1 hour ago, dick dasterdly said:

Possibly, but its also possible that the EU's negotiating stance will annoy many voters - as its basically forcing the UK into a quick, hard brexit solution.  The EU is adopting a bullying attitude, and this may well backfire.

 

This is what is currently making the Brits the biggest joke in Europe, they voted to leave but now getting all butthurt because the EU is treating them like outsiders.

 

The only thing that has backfired is Brexit, the baby has thrown its toys out of the pram and is now boo hooing about the fact it doesn't have any toys to play with and looking for others to blame.

 

The UK has voted for Brexit, so just leave, you can't have it both ways and still whine about "forcing the UK" and "The EU is adopting a bullying attitude", you've voted for Brexit so get on with it, just leave and take the needle of the broken record which blames the EU for everything.

 

The UK bed has been made, and it has been shat on ....now you have to lie in it and get used to the smell of shit in your dreams ....quietly!!!!!

Edited April 29, 2017 by onthesoi

[ilostmypassword]

2 minutes ago, nontabury said:

So far the negotiations seem to be based on threats coming out of the mouths of the unelected Bureacrats in Brussels. Yet some people wonder why the Brits voted to leave. Surely these utterances must put doubts into the minds of the most ardent Remoaners.

Unless of course they have something to gain,by remaining in this so-called Union.

 

 

Angela Merkel is an unelected bureaucrat?

[pitrevie]

16 minutes ago, nontabury said:

So far the negotiations seem to be based on threats coming out of the mouths of the unelected Bureacrats in Brussels. Yet some people wonder why the Brits voted to leave. Surely these utterances must put doubts into the minds of the most ardent Remoaners.

Unless of course they have something to gain,by remaining in this so-called Union.

 

 

Since 1999, more progressive European nations have been trying to limit the amount of public money a farmer can capture under the common agricultural policy. It looked as if, this year, they might at last succeed. But throughout the negotiations that ended last week, two governments in particular resisted: those resolute champions of the free market, Germany and the UK. Thanks to their lobbying, any decision has yet again been deferred.

There were two proposals for limiting handouts to the super-rich, known as capping and degressivity. Capping means that no one should receive more than a certain amount: the proposed limit was €300,000 (£250,000) a year. Degressivity means that beyond a certain point the rate received per hectare begins to fall. This was supposed to have kicked in at €150,000. The UK's environment secretary, Owen Paterson, knocked both proposals down.

 

Do you actually believe that the Tories will reduce the amount of subsidies handed out to the farmers once we leave the EU?

Edited April 29, 2017 by pitrevie
adding

[nontabury]

12 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

Angela Merkel is an unelected bureaucrat?

I did mention Brussels,although Merkal may well  be pulling their stings,on behalf of the political establishment and big business.

[mommysboy]

38 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

"People will vote TM because they see her as a person that can provide strength (a mummy), and there isn't an effective opposition either.  They will not really be endorsing Brexit."

 

Disagree entirely.  They will vote according to whether or not they support brexit IMO.

 

But I assume its the start of the 'arguments' as to why so many left Labour and supported the tories - assuming (as looks likely) the tories win an increased majority....

 

What do you see as a possible negotiated settlement?

[dick dasterdly]

25 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

We will see but the reality of Brexit negotiations will not change.  UK's negotiating stance is laughable which is why EU has responded in kind imo.  I think one is deluded to think that there is the opportunity for some clever brinksmanship.  Reality presents a simple choice: stay in as at present, or go unilaterally with all the attendant hardship.

 

As an aside, the striking aspect of UK p[olitics is the incredible mono focus, and black and white thinking.  Now, presented with a genuine situation which is one way, and as distinct as one can get, we see nothing but hesitancy.

 

I imagine a lot of this comes from the fact that in dropping out, we get what only a few hardliners want: pyrrhic victory defined.  My conclusion is that Brexit is simply not feasible... and that is just the way it is.

 

 

The black and white thinking exemplified by this post?

 

Not sure that the UK has said very much about its " laughable negotiating stance", whereas the EU has come up with a list as to how negotiations will proceed....

[dick dasterdly]

23 minutes ago, onthesoi said:

 

This is what is currently making the Brits the biggest joke in Europe, they voted to leave but now getting all butthurt because the EU is treating them like outsiders.

 

The only thing that has backfired is Brexit, the baby has thrown its toys out of the pram and is now boo hooing about the fact it doesn't have any toys to play with and looking for others to blame.

 

The UK has voted for Brexit, so just leave, you can't have it both ways and still whine about "forcing the UK" and "The EU is adopting a bullying attitude", you've voted for Brexit so get on with it, just leave and take the needle of the broken record which blames the EU for everything.

 

The UK bed has been made, and it has been shat on ....now you have to lie in it and get used to the smell of shit in your dreams ....quietly!!!!!

So you think the best option for the UK at the moment is to just say negotiations are pointless - just leave and adopt WTO trading rules?

[AlexRich]

2 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

"Support for Brexit seems to be cooling.  It could easily be that by the time there is Brexit, the majority will not want it, especially on the inevitable hard Brexit which is the only real option."

 

Possibly, but its also possible that the EU's negotiating stance will annoy many voters - as its basically forcing the UK into a quick, hard brexit solution.  The EU is adopting a bullying attitude, and this may well backfire.

 

Very good article by Reuters in the thread 'EU leaders united - for now'.

 

I think there's some truth in this ... any approach by the EU that looks bullying and intended to inflict serious harm will be resented by most people, whether they want Brexit or not. Let's hope more sensible heads prevail.

[dick dasterdly]

21 minutes ago, pitrevie said:

Since 1999, more progressive European nations have been trying to limit the amount of public money a farmer can capture under the common agricultural policy. It looked as if, this year, they might at last succeed. But throughout the negotiations that ended last week, two governments in particular resisted: those resolute champions of the free market, Germany and the UK. Thanks to their lobbying, any decision has yet again been deferred.

There were two proposals for limiting handouts to the super-rich, known as capping and degressivity. Capping means that no one should receive more than a certain amount: the proposed limit was €300,000 (£250,000) a year. Degressivity means that beyond a certain point the rate received per hectare begins to fall. This was supposed to have kicked in at €150,000. The UK's environment secretary, Owen Paterson, knocked both proposals down.

 

Do you actually believe that the Tories will reduce the amount of subsidies handed out to the farmers once we leave the EU?

Quite.

 

If I understand correctly, the French have managed to maintain small farmers, whereas the UK has turned into a nation of (mostly) big business farmers .

[onthesoi]

16 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

So you think the best option for the UK at the moment is to just say negotiations are pointless - just leave and adopt WTO trading rules?

 

If they want to negotiate a deal then do so, but know it will be a worse deal than the current one....obviously!!!!!!

 

If they want to leave then leave.

 

But, for god sake will they please stop whining about the EU bullying them, article 50 has been submitted they can do what they like....and take responsibility for it, every last drop.

 

Do you think the opposition in a negotiation( with trillions of Euros at stake ) are not going to play hard ball to get the best deal for themselves  ...it's business not personal, and the UK has weakened it's own hand by leaving, UK vs EU rofl!!!! ....you didn't need a crystal ball to see what the outcome of that would be.

Edited April 29, 2017 by onthesoi

[dick dasterdly]

19 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

 

What do you see as a possible negotiated settlement?

I'll be the first to admit that I've no idea - and appreciate the problem faced by both UK and EU negotiators in trying to come up with an acceptable deal.

 

If only the EU had recognised that open borders/ever increasing costs and empire building was a bad idea - we wouldn't be in this position in the first place .

 

On the other hand, I'm pretty sure that using ever more bullying tactics is likely to be a very bad idea indeed - especially with a UK general election approaching.

[nontabury]

7 minutes ago, onthesoi said:

 

If they want to negotiate a deal then do so, but know it will be a worse deal than the current one....obviously!!!!!!

 

If they want to leave then leave.

 

But, for god sake will they please stop whining about the EU bullying them, article 50 has been submitted they can do what they like....and take responsibility for it, every last drop.

 

Do you think the opposition in a negotiation( with trillions of Euros at stake ) are not going to play hard ball to get the best deal for themselves  ...it's business not personal, and the UK has weakened it's own hand by leaving, UK vs EU rofl!!!! ....you didn't need a crystal ball to see what the outcome of that would be.

You could have added,that the UK is the 2nd to largest contributor to the E.U. And that the E.U. Enjoys a very large trading surplus with the U.K.

Further more that the British people do not like to be dictated too.

Also  that there are more and more Europeans are coming around to the same way of thinking as the Brits,it's just a matter of time.

[onthesoi]

11 minutes ago, nontabury said:

You could have added,that the UK is the 2nd to largest contributor to the E.U. And that the E.U. Enjoys a very large trading surplus with the U.K.

Further more that the British people do not like to be dictated too.

 

 

If, the UK are so strong and large how is it possible they are being 'bullied' and 'forced' by the EU?

 

If TM gets her way in the GE, a dictatorship is exactly what the British people will get....as the Tories will have complete control of THC.

 

If she really believed in democracy and her own strength she would have called the GE prior to Article 50 being submitted

 

 

 

Edited April 29, 2017 by onthesoi

[nontabury]

54 minutes ago, pitrevie said:

Since 1999, more progressive European nations have been trying to limit the amount of public money a farmer can capture under the common agricultural policy. It looked as if, this year, they might at last succeed. But throughout the negotiations that ended last week, two governments in particular resisted: those resolute champions of the free market, Germany and the UK. Thanks to their lobbying, any decision has yet again been deferred.

There were two proposals for limiting handouts to the super-rich, known as capping and degressivity. Capping means that no one should receive more than a certain amount: the proposed limit was €300,000 (£250,000) a year. Degressivity means that beyond a certain point the rate received per hectare begins to fall. This was supposed to have kicked in at €150,000. The UK's environment secretary, Owen Paterson, knocked both proposals down.

 

Do you actually believe that the Tories will reduce the amount of subsidies handed out to the farmers once we leave the EU?

There is much truth in your post. Many of the farms,especially in the UK have been taken over by very large concerns. While in other countries,such as France , the farm industry is very fragmentated. As we Britexiteers have been saying for a long time. The E.U. Is for the betterment of the large corporations,not for the people.

 

 

[onthesoi]

24 minutes ago, nontabury said:

You could have added,that the UK is the 2nd to largest contributor to the E.U. And that the E.U. Enjoys a very large trading surplus with the U.K.

 

Oh yeah, one last thing ....if the UK imports/exports so much to the EU as you say, that is a big incentive for EU countries to make sure the deal fails.....so they, themselves, can fill the void created by the UK, there is nothing being exported by the UK that cannot be made elsewhere in the EU, or they could simply export to the UK by proxy, especially now the UK has stepped outside the protectionist EU umbrella.

 

Once, again ...no crystal ball required to see what is going to happen, hence the huge shark bite on the UK pound...the very next morning after the referendum.

Edited April 29, 2017 by onthesoi

[dick dasterdly]

6 minutes ago, onthesoi said:

 

If, the UK are so strong and large how is it possible they are being 'bullied' and 'forced' by the EU?

 

If TM gets her way in the GE, a dictatorship is exactly what the British people will get....as the Tories will have complete control of THC.

 

If she really believed in democracy and her own strength she would have called the GE prior to Article 50 being submitted

 

 

 

We can argue about this all day (and many days to come), but there is a more recent thread about how negotiations 'will' proceed' - according to the EU.

 

Hopefully I can add a  to the EU list of how negotiations will proceed!.

[onthesoi]

7 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

We can argue about this all day (and many days to come), but there is a more recent thread about how negotiations 'will' proceed' - according to the EU.

 

Hopefully I can add a  to the EU list of how negotiations will proceed!.

 

It's silly to argue over facts :)

 

Even TM knows the UK deal will be pants ...that's why she needs to form her dictatorship via the GE/THC, she knows the majority of current MPs will not go for it, not because they don't want Brexit(they already voted for that) ..but because the deal will be very very bad for the UK.

 

The jewel in the crown for me will be the day in the near future, when all the Ukip racists realise that immigration will continue unencumbered, in fact immigration will most likely increase as the UK will need a greater surplus of low paid workers to prop up their terminal economy.

Edited April 29, 2017 by onthesoi

[dick dasterdly]

5 minutes ago, onthesoi said:

 

It's silly to argue over facts :)

 

Even TM knows the UK deal will be pants ...that's why she needs to form her dictatorship via the GE/THC, she knows the majority of current MPs will not go for it, not because they don't want Brexit(they already voted for that) ..but because the deal will be very very bad for the UK.

 

The jewel in the crown for me will be the day in the near future, when all the Ukip racists realise that immigration will continue unencumbered, in fact immigration will most likely increase as the UK will need a greater surplus of low paid workers to prop up their terminal economy.

You could be right - apart from the first paragraph (facts???) and last paragraph, which speaks for itself .

Edited April 29, 2017 by dick dasterdly

[nontabury]

2 hours ago, onthesoi said:

 

It's silly to argue over facts :)

 

Even TM knows the UK deal will be pants ...that's why she needs to form her dictatorship via the GE/THC, she knows the majority of current MPs will not go for it, not because they don't want Brexit(they already voted for that) ..but because the deal will be very very bad for the UK.

 

The jewel in the crown for me will be the day in the near future, when all the Ukip racists realise that immigration will continue unencumbered, in fact immigration will most likely increase as the UK will need a greater surplus of low paid workers to prop up their terminal economy.

Ah! The old UKIP racist quote from someone who has lost the argument.

 

 

[ilostmypassword]

3 hours ago, onthesoi said:

Oh yeah, one last thing ....if the UK imports/exports so much to the EU as you say, that is a big incentive for EU countries to make sure the deal fails.....so they, themselves, can fill the void created by the UK, there is nothing being exported by the UK that cannot be made elsewhere in the EU, or they could simply export to the UK by proxy, especially now the UK has stepped outside the protectionist EU umbrella.

 

Once, again ...no crystal ball required to see what is going to happen, hence the huge shark bite on the UK pound...the very next morning after the referendum.

Regardless of hard or soft Brexit, the EU and the UK will go on trading with each other.  There will be some tariffs, but those will be mostly low if WTO rules kick in. The UK will lose a lot of its financial industry to the continent which I suppose would hurt housing prices in the London region. But maybe that's not entirely a bad thing. And it will probably  at least some if not a lot of its car assembly business.  Many parts go back and forth between the UK and the Continent several times and if tariffs are applied at each passage, that could make it too expensive to assemble vehicles in the UK.

[AlexRich]

3 hours ago, onthesoi said:

 

If, the UK are so strong and large how is it possible they are being 'bullied' and 'forced' by the EU?

 

If TM gets her way in the GE, a dictatorship is exactly what the British people will get....as the Tories will have complete control of THC.

 

If she really believed in democracy and her own strength she would have called the GE prior to Article 50 being submitted

 

 

 

The UK is stronger than, say Greece, but what seems to fall on the deaf ears of Brexiteers is that the UK (one country) loses more than the EU, as their pain is spread over 27 countries ... so the bargaining hand of the UK is nowhere near as strong as Brexiteers like to imply. Whatever the economic outcome is for the UK once out of the EU it will be a worse outcome than we have at present ... a reality that many don't wish to face up to ... some businesses will move out of the UK, in part or whole, and fewer businesses will set up HQ's here. If London suffers, for example, we all feel it as less tax is earned, and that means less redistribution to other areas of the UK. Trade deals won't fill the gap ... and in any case will take years to achieve and come with unforeseen requirements ... like more of their people settling here ... expect much immigration ... same numbers just different looking faces. A monumental foot shooting exercise. 

[AlexRich]

1 minute ago, ilostmypassword said:

Regardless of hard or soft Brexit, the EU and the UK will go on trading with each other.  There will be some tariffs, but those will be mostly low if WTO rules kick in. The UK will lose a lot of its financial industry to the continent which I suppose would hurt housing prices in the London region. But maybe that's not entirely a bad thing. And it will probably  at least some if not a lot of its car assembly business.  Many parts go back and forth between the UK and the Continent several times and if tariffs are applied at each passage, that could make it too expensive to assemble vehicles in the UK.

WTO rules will be painful .... and bear in mind we have large service industries ... it's not just manufacturing. 

[ilostmypassword]

4 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

WTO rules will be painful .... and bear in mind we have large service industries ... it's not just manufacturing. 

In fact service industries generate a lot more income than does manufacturing.  I don't know how much service industries - apart from the financial service industry - generate for the UK outside of its borders and how they would be affected by Brexit.

[pitrevie]

4 hours ago, nontabury said:

There is much truth in your post. Many of the farms,especially in the UK have been taken over by very large concerns. While in other countries,such as France , the farm industry is very fragmentated. As we Britexiteers have been saying for a long time. The E.U. Is for the betterment of the large corporations,not for the people.

 

 

Will there be any change after Brexit will the NFU have their snout in the trough any less often under the Tories? Farm subsidies will continue at the same rate under the Tories.

[onthesoi]

2 hours ago, nontabury said:

Ah! The old UKIP racist quote from someone who has lost the argument.

 

 

 

 

ahhh, the old semi-literate UKIP voter, cannot articulate in his first language to defeat an argument, forced to communicate using childish pictures he found on Facebook.

 

UKIP are a party of and for racists, FACT!

Edited April 29, 2017 by onthesoi

[Flustered]

8 minutes ago, onthesoi said:

 

 

ahhh, the old semi-literate UKIP voter, cannot articulate in his first language to defeat an argument, forced to communicate using childish pictures he found on the internet.

 

UKIP are a party of and for racists, FACT!

And there speaks a tolerant lefty..555

 

Why is it that lefties, liberals and luvvies always say they are tolerant but tolerance is defined by their ideals and no one elses.

 

In a truly tolerant society that allowed freedom of speech, all walks of life, racist or otherwise would be allowed to speak their minds openly without fear of persecution.

 

I do not agree with racism or homophobia but I would defend anyones right to believe in these and openly state their case.

 

But we live in a liberal tolerant world that means you can only say what is politically correct and in line with these luvvies beliefs.

[onthesoi]

6 minutes ago, Flustered said:

And there speaks a tolerant lefty..555

 

Why is it that lefties, liberals and luvvies always say they are tolerant but tolerance is defined by their ideals and no one elses.

 

In a truly tolerant society that allowed freedom of speech, all walks of life, racist or otherwise would be allowed to speak their minds openly without fear of persecution.

 

I do not agree with racism or homophobia but I would defend anyones right to believe in these and openly state their case.

 

But we live in a liberal tolerant world that means you can only say what is politically correct and in line with these luvvies beliefs.

Where did I say I was a leftie, tolerant or against freedom of speech?

 

You say you believe in freedom of speech ..yet, you're coming across all butt hurt at my post?

 

Free and open debate also means being open to criticism

 

I do apologise if I'm not PC enough for you!

Edited April 29, 2017 by onthesoi

[Flustered]

3 minutes ago, onthesoi said:

Where did I say I was a leftie, tolerant or against freedom of speech?

 

You say you believe in freedom of speech ..yet, you're coming across all butt hurt at my post?

 

Free and open debate also means being open to criticism

 

I do apologise if I'm not PC enough for you!

You attacked and insulted someone who had not made any reference to you (unless you fitted the picture). Insults are not the same as views.

 

Your response speaks for itself as one who cannot tolerate anyone having an opinion that does not agree with yours. You just wanted a cheap shot at someone who's opinion is obviously tangential to yours.

 

You are perfectly entitled to speak your opinion and I would defend your right to do so without resulting to insulting comments. Others should be allowed their opinions as well, such as my criticism (not insult) of your insulting post.

 

A simple disagreement with the FM would have proved your point far better.