May ready for tough talks over Brexit

[sujoop]

1 hour ago, mommysboy said:

2 hours ago, sujoop said:

 

Thanks for the legacy

Rather a difference isn't there?  And of course it is the young that have to live longer with the decision.

 

I need to point out that those 18-24 years olds will end up voting the same way as the old uns when their time comes.

No, we will go fwd despite your tainted legacy whilst you enjoy the tar pits

[mommysboy]

4 minutes ago, sujoop said:

No, we will go fwd despite your tainted legacy whilst you enjoy the tar pits

I am not a Brexiteer.

 

It is just the way it is: as we grow older so our voting becomes more conservative.  That's if they make old bones, because life is getting harder and harder.

[nontabury]

13 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

Was the wider EU given the opportunity to vote on whether the UK should be allowed to enact Brexit and bring a mountain of uncertainty to the remaining 27 countries?

 

I appreciate that there would be repercussions for the other members of the union, but I do not see those as being reason not to push for something I consider to be better for all parties. But let's be realistic - not very much will change at a every day level. Of course all the reserved powers will transfer north and our government will have full control over how the country is run; Westminster will have obviously less influence over Scotland.

 

But at our level, people on either side of the border will remain friends and continue to exchange calls, cards and visits. Commerce and support will continue to flow in both directions; Scotland will remain a dependable ally and partner to rUK.

Except of course,if Scotland were then to join the E.U.

This would result in all the powers being transferred to Brussels,who for sure would not give Scotland the privileges it now enjoys.

 

 

Edited May 16, 2017 by nontabury

[nontabury]

10 hours ago, sujoop said:

 

Thanks for the legacy

I've seen two articles in the last week. In both they quote opinion polls showing a substantial increase in support for Brexit. In one the figure is now 73%. Yet I'm sure some Remoaners will carry on.

[Orac]

I've seen two articles in the last week. In both they quote opinion polls showing a substantial increase in support for Brexit. In one the figure is now 73%. Yet I'm sure some Remoaners will carry on.

Would be interested in a link to support this 73% as I have mot seen any that high.

The big one doing the rounds this morning is the Yougov poll which Telegraph and Daily Express state as showing 68% support for Brexit however it is a very dubious analysis.

[RuamRudy]

Except of course,if Scotland were then to join the E.U.
This would result in all the powers being transferred to Brussels,who for sure would not give Scotland the privileges it now enjoys.
 
 

Rather than divert this topic further, I have taken the liberty of posting your question and my reply on the "Sturgeon says: I can win independence vote" thread.

[sandyf]

18 hours ago, nauseus said:

I understand the benefits of employee and customer protection and I, too, have personally experienced the pressure of companies wanting to shortcut similar rules. The Health and Safety Executive will continue to improve workers safety and welfare and I don't think the the UK Consumer Protection Association would be happy if any future government tries to scrap the existing important rules and the The Consumer Rights Act.  

 

Businesses will usually try to use any reason to bump up prices but it seems to me that excessive EU regulation in a lot areas has made it very difficult for UK SME businesses to be profitable and survive. I believe that many of the ill-conceived regulations could be removed over time with due consideration and without really hurting consumers or employees.  

This is the whole crux of the matter, what exactly constitutes "ill conceived regulations" - perception by the general public, perception by the employers that don't want to spend money improving the business model?

In many cases EU legislation changed manufacturers responsibility from an abstract concept under consumer rights to a defined legal responsibility under the appropriate EU directive, is this what you mean by excessive regulation?

 

What about TM's plan to give to give staff a year off to look after relatives. Are the government going to fund the costs involved? Sounds to me that TM has no idea that many businesses just cannot recruit temporary staff "off the street" and for those that can it does not come cheap.

A good idea in principle but it needs some government funding, just like the introduction of EU legislation did, but was never forthcoming.

 

Which ever direction you come from, it is all about money. If the UK government hadn't screwed things up in the past we wouldn't be having this debate. Unfortunately, like leopards, it is very unlikely they will change their spots.

[dick dasterdly]

2 hours ago, Orac said:

 

Would be interested in a link to support this 73% as I have mot seen any that high.

The big one doing the rounds this morning is the Yougov poll which Telegraph and Daily Express state as showing 68% support for Brexit however it is a very dubious analysis.

 

You're probably right about both opinion polls.  No idea about the Daily Express, but the Telegraph is certainly a leave campaigner.

 

Even so, it wouldn't suprise me if a number of 'on the fence' voters are moving towards brexit as a result of a few EU politicians and remain media coming out with obviously BS propaganda to further their cause (leaked dinner conversation immediately springs to mind along with Osborne's promised 'punishment' budget )/final agreement will punish UK/ and other bullying or scare-mongering tactics.

 

Combined with the remain media pretty much predicting armageddon in the event of a leave vote in the referendum - it would be far from suprising if voters are becoming more cynical and inclined to support brexit.

[RuamRudy]

4 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

You're probably right about both opinion polls.  No idea about the Daily Express, but the Telegraph is certainly a leave campaigner.

 

Even so, it wouldn't suprise me if a number of 'on the fence' voters are moving towards brexit as a result of a few EU politicians and remain media coming out with obviously BS propaganda to further their cause (leaked dinner conversation immediately springs to mind along with Osborne's promised 'punishment' budget )/final agreement will punish UK/ and other bullying or scare-mongering tactics.

 

Combined with the remain media pretty much predicting armageddon in the event of a leave vote in the referendum - it would be far from suprising if voters are becoming more cynical and inclined to support brexit.

The YouGov poll that, I think, Orac is referring to does not, in my mind, indicate 68% support for Brexit, but, rather, indicates that 45% are still positive about it and 23% are accepting of it. Acceptance does not necessarily imply support.

 

 

[mommysboy]

12 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

The YouGov poll that, I think, Orac is referring to does not, in my mind, indicate 68% support for Brexit, but, rather, indicates that 45% are still positive about it and 23% are accepting of it. Acceptance does not necessarily imply support.

 

 

Absolutely. It does in fact show that 45% support Brexit, and 45% don't.

 

But at this stage it would be more fruitful to know what type of Brexit people support. 

[nontabury]

3 hours ago, Orac said:

 

Would be interested in a link to support this 73% as I have mot seen any that high.

The big one doing the rounds this morning is the Yougov poll which Telegraph and Daily Express state as showing 68% support for Brexit however it is a very dubious analysis.

 

Regarding the 73%. This I read last week. Unfortunately I cannot now find the link. My apologies. However in yesterday's Daily Telegraph they had an article saying 

that 68% of (5428) people surveyed. " now support Brexit " 

Perhaps the reason for this increase in support for Brexit, can be found in post 5318. Though I'm sure some Reoaners will still dispute these figures and findings.

 

 

[Orac]

Regarding the 73%. This I read last week. Unfortunately I cannot now find the link. My apologies. However in yesterday's Daily Telegraph they had an article saying 
that 68% of (5428) people surveyed. " now support Brexit " 
Perhaps the reason for this increase in support for Brexit, can be found in post 5318. Though I'm sure some Reoaners will still dispute these figures and findings.
 
 

As RR pointed out in the previous post, the Daily Telegraph's 68% is a bit of spin since it is made up of 45% of people who previously supported Brexit (not a majority anymore) and they have added on 23% of people who have accepted the result of the referendum but give, no indication of wether they now think that Brexit was the correct choice.

Though still I think Brexit is going to be a disaster I would have answered in that 23% category if asked as I wish they would just get it done quickly now though I in no way support it as the right thing to do.

[nauseus]

3 hours ago, sandyf said:

This is the whole crux of the matter, what exactly constitutes "ill conceived regulations" - perception by the general public, perception by the employers that don't want to spend money improving the business model?

In many cases EU legislation changed manufacturers responsibility from an abstract concept under consumer rights to a defined legal responsibility under the appropriate EU directive, is this what you mean by excessive regulation?

 

What about TM's plan to give to give staff a year off to look after relatives. Are the government going to fund the costs involved? Sounds to me that TM has no idea that many businesses just cannot recruit temporary staff "off the street" and for those that can it does not come cheap.

A good idea in principle but it needs some government funding, just like the introduction of EU legislation did, but was never forthcoming.

 

Which ever direction you come from, it is all about money. If the UK government hadn't screwed things up in the past we wouldn't be having this debate. Unfortunately, like leopards, it is very unlikely they will change their spots.

Well, different people will form different interpretations of the term "ill conceived regulations". To me it means those trivial rules, hurriedly put in place, without due consideration, and which are relatively far more costly for small firms to comply with than for the big multinationals. The rate of issue of new EU regulations has often been over 1000/year and I'm not going to try to sift through them!

 

But the removal of trivial regulations would reduce the total number anyway, which would help small businesses to be able to cope a little better and maybe create a bit of profit and a few new jobs. This would particularly benefit the UK non-exporting businesses.

 

The plan you mention is the Carer's Allowance, I think, but the money is so poor that I don't think that it will be much use to most people, who still might lose their jobs after 12 months anyway. How can you put a timeline on how long old or sick people will need care? 

 

  

Edited May 16, 2017 by nauseus

[dick dasterdly]

When it comes to 'ill conceived' the prime example has to be the EU parliament moving from one place to another every month!

[nauseus]

8 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

When it comes to 'ill conceived' the prime example has to be the EU parliament moving from one place to another every month!

Vive La France!

[dick dasterdly]

3 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Vive La France!

It took me a while to 'get' this (I'm a bit slow nowadays ), but I understood your point eventually!

[Flustered]

I loved this quote from the lefties favourite newspaper.

 

“How much is Macron going to cost us?,” asked Bild. “France isn’t ailing because of the euro, because of Europe or even Germany”, wrote the tabloid’s opinion writer Nikolaus Blome. “The opposite is true: the euro, Europe and Germany are ailing because France has been standing still for years”.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/15/emmanuel-macron-angela-merkel-berlin-eurozone

 

Well, you have it in print, even closer unification of Europe. They are also looking for a European finance minister. perhaps if and when Scotland leave the UK and become a vassal state of the EU, Gordon Brown can apply for the job and destroy the EU economy as comprehensively as he did the UKs.

[nontabury]

16 minutes ago, Flustered said:

I loved this quote from the lefties favourite newspaper.

 

“How much is Macron going to cost us?,” asked Bild. “France isn’t ailing because of the euro, because of Europe or even Germany”, wrote the tabloid’s opinion writer Nikolaus Blome. “The opposite is true: the euro, Europe and Germany are ailing because France has been standing still for years”.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/15/emmanuel-macron-angela-merkel-berlin-eurozone

 

Well, you have it in print, even closer unification of Europe. They are also looking for a European finance minister. perhaps if and when Scotland leave the UK and become a vassal state of the EU, Gordon Brown can apply for the job and destroy the EU economy as comprehensively as he did the UKs.

Can I nominate Diane Abbott for the position of European Finance Minister.

 

 

[Loaded]

Until the UK leaves the German Union, to pass any new law/act, there must be unanimous agreement between all 28 members. The UK has recently refused to pass two recent acts/laws going through the EU. It struck me immediately that this is a strategy that the UK should use until they leave - halt all EU development by vetoing all laws/acts unless they negotiate above the negotiating level of a petulant 3 year old. After all, it is the strategy that they have openly threatened the UK with - "unfortunately all 27 countries need to agree on a deal after you leave".

 

This will kibosh Vichy France 2 and the 4th Reich's plans to create a Kraut super state.

 

deutschland über quislings

Edited May 16, 2017 by Loaded

[SheungWan]

1 hour ago, Loaded said:

Until the UK leaves the German Union, to pass any new law/act, there must be unanimous agreement between all 28 members. The UK has recently refused to pass two recent acts/laws going through the EU. It struck me immediately that this is a strategy that the UK should use until they leave - halt all EU development by vetoing all laws/acts unless they negotiate above the negotiating level of a petulant 3 year old. After all, it is the strategy that they have openly threatened the UK with - "unfortunately all 27 countries need to agree on a deal after you leave".

 

This will kibosh Vichy France 2 and the 4th Reich's plans to create a Kraut super state.

 

deutschland über quislings

Strange isn't it that so many Hard Brexiteers who make casual remarks about Vichy France were oh-so-recently cheerleading the French NF Marie Le Pen. But then would one expect anything more informed from someone copying and pasting away without reference?

[SheungWan]

7 hours ago, nontabury said:

Can I nominate Diane Abbott for the position of European Finance Minister.

 

The whole point of Brexit is that you don't get to nominate anybody for anything in the EU.

[SheungWan]

7 hours ago, Flustered said:

I loved this quote from the lefties favourite newspaper.

 

“How much is Macron going to cost us?,” asked Bild. “France isn’t ailing because of the euro, because of Europe or even Germany”, wrote the tabloid’s opinion writer Nikolaus Blome. “The opposite is true: the euro, Europe and Germany are ailing because France has been standing still for years”.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/15/emmanuel-macron-angela-merkel-berlin-eurozone

 

Well, you have it in print, even closer unification of Europe. They are also looking for a European finance minister. perhaps if and when Scotland leave the UK and become a vassal state of the EU, Gordon Brown can apply for the job and destroy the EU economy as comprehensively as he did the UKs.

Gordon Brown was a leading campaigner against Scottish independence in 2014 and therefore your tortuous comments as silly as usual.

[Flustered]

Ah, The Straw Man with another great contribution. Absolutely NOTHING

 

46 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

Strange isn't it that so many Hard Brexiteers who make casual remarks about Vichy France were oh-so-recently cheerleading the French NF Marie Le Pen. But then would one expect anything more informed from someone copying and pasting away without reference?

Contribution to the thread.....Zero

 

31 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

The whole point of Brexit is that you don't get to nominate anybody for anything in the EU.

Couldn't even see the post was a joke remark.

Contribution to the thread.....Zero

 

23 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

Gordon Brown was a leading campaigner against Scottish independence in 2014 and therefore your tortuous comments as silly as usual.

And finally after again failing to understand humour,......Contribution to the thread.....Zero

 

Someone should go back to Hong Kong.

 

Edited May 16, 2017 by Flustered

[melvinmelvin]

2 hours ago, Loaded said:

Until the UK leaves the German Union, to pass any new law/act, there must be unanimous agreement between all 28 members. The UK has recently refused to pass two recent acts/laws going through the EU. It struck me immediately that this is a strategy that the UK should use until they leave - halt all EU development by vetoing all laws/acts unless they negotiate above the negotiating level of a petulant 3 year old. After all, it is the strategy that they have openly threatened the UK with - "unfortunately all 27 countries need to agree on a deal after you leave".

 

This will kibosh Vichy France 2 and the 4th Reich's plans to create a Kraut super state.

 

deutschland über quislings

 

had a few too many?

 

this is not the time for UK to be difficult re EU developments

no reason whatsoever to upset the EU crew -- would make the coming negos even more difficult

 

UK does not have a strong hand in these negos, she has a weak hand in my view, endeavour to make the most of it

ie behave

 

economy/import/export/trade/tax/duty . . . will probably not be the most important issues

political and social clout will probably be way more important

 

UK has a lot to lose UK has a lot to gain

UK has little to offer UK has a lot win

 

so take care, watch your mouth and make the most of it

 

[SheungWan]

36 minutes ago, Flustered said:

Someone should go back to Hong Kong.

Next flight already booked!

 

[nauseus]

22 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

had a few too many?

 

this is not the time for UK to be difficult re EU developments

no reason whatsoever to upset the EU crew -- would make the coming negos even more difficult

 

UK does not have a strong hand in these negos, she has a weak hand in my view, endeavour to make the most of it

ie behave

 

economy/import/export/trade/tax/duty . . . will probably not be the most important issues

political and social clout will probably be way more important

 

UK has a lot to lose UK has a lot to gain

UK has little to offer UK has a lot win

 

so take care, watch your mouth and make the most of it

 

UK has a lot to lose UK has a lot to gain

UK has little to offer UK has a lot win

 

Who's had to many?? 

[Flustered]

27 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

had a few too many?

 

this is not the time for UK to be difficult re EU developments

no reason whatsoever to upset the EU crew -- would make the coming negos even more difficult

 

UK does not have a strong hand in these negos, she has a weak hand in my view, endeavour to make the most of it

ie behave

 

economy/import/export/trade/tax/duty . . . will probably not be the most important issues

political and social clout will probably be way more important

 

UK has a lot to lose UK has a lot to gain

UK has little to offer UK has a lot win

 

so take care, watch your mouth and make the most of it

 

You would have had a great career as Neville Chamberlain or Vidkun Quisling's speech writer.   

 

What a defeatist attitude. The UK has by far the stronger hand in all regards.

 

Or perhaps you were just winding FMs up?

[SheungWan]

11 minutes ago, Flustered said:

You would have had a great career as Neville Chamberlain or Vidkun Quisling's speech writer.   

 

What a defeatist attitude. The UK has by far the stronger hand in all regards.

 

Or perhaps you were just winding FMs up?

Chamberlain and Quisling were quite different individuals and neither appropriate for a sensible conversation on this thread unless one is committed to thoroughly over-the-top juvenile nonsense in a vain attempt to land a knock out blow.

[Naam]

28 minutes ago, Flustered said:

 The UK has by far the stronger hand in all regards.

 

[Naam]