May ready for tough talks over Brexit

[beautifulthailand99]

5 hours ago, Khun Han said:

 

Ah yes.....the anecdotal 'Every brexiter I know has changed their mind.' Funnily enough, every brexiter I know is more committed to brexit than ever. The only two remainers I know are my daughter (who is worried about gap year travel in Europe) and the husband of a friend of my wife (who thinks being in the EU stops corruption in the UK ).

err my sister , brother-in-law and niece in Preston. You should listen to your daughter more she sounds ....sound.

[SheungWan]

3 hours ago, vogie said:

The Lib/Dem manifesto was all about staying in the EU and even offering the electorate another referendum, if my memory serves me well the electorate totally snubbed them in the General Election. Does that tell you anything?

Probably about as much as you learned from UKIP losing all the seats it contested.

[vogie]

2 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

Probably about as much as you learned from UKIP losing all the seats it contested.

I can't remember UKIP wanting another referendum. 

[SheungWan]

Just now, vogie said:

I can't remember UKIP wanting another referendum. 

....and what exactly do you remember them wanting?

[Khun Han]

34 minutes ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

err my sister , brother-in-law and niece in Preston. You should listen to your daughter more she sounds ....sound.

 

Her uni friends told her that British passport holders would have restricted travel in Europe post-brexit, and she believed them .

 

I bet you've been wording up your sister, brother-in-law and niece in Preston, haven't you? ('Who, me? I never talk with anyone about politics!')

[Khun Han]

4 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

....and what exactly do you remember them wanting?

 

Who cares? They helped put brexit on the agenda (for which we should thank them), and now they're a footnote in history.

[SheungWan]

Just now, Khun Han said:

 

Her uni friends told her that British passport holders would have restricted travel in Europe post-brexit, and she believed them .

 

I bet you've been wording up your sister, brother-in-law and niece in Preston, haven't you? ('Who, me? I never talk with anyone about politics!')

'Wording up'??? What patois from hell is this?

[Khun Han]

5 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

'Wording up'??? What patois from hell is this?

 

I say! That reply has a hint of racism about it!

[vogie]

14 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

....and what exactly do you remember them wanting?

You brought the subject of UKIP up, not me. My point is you would have thought that all these converts from 'exit to remain' would have voted for a party that would have gave them a chance of a second referendum, you know all these millions of people who have had second thoughts, but we all know that there are no such people, only in the eyes of remainers.

[AlexRich]

4 hours ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

err my sister , brother-in-law and niece in Preston. You should listen to your daughter more she sounds ....sound.

I can't believe he sired a smart woman? Younger people were concerned about right to work and settle, and move freely around Europe. They liked being part of the EU. But more than that, they understood the economic argument, and where the burden would fall in the future if the "wonderland" Leave campaigners promised failed to materialise ... with them for the remainder of their lives. And that's something that the likes of kh fail to acknowledge ... it doesn't affect them so <deleted>!

[jpinx]

Facts for those who are interested

 

https://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21724810-country-saves-too-much-and-spends-too-little-why-germanys-current-account-surplus-bad?frsc=dg|e

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-40505337

 

https://mbasic.facebook.com/CDGlenkensSNP/photos/a.1569061763368611.1073741830.1542329606041827/1902993683308749/?type=3&refid=52&_ft_=top_level_post_id.1902998086641642%3Atl_objid.1902998086641642%3Apage_id.1542329606041827%3Athid.1542329606041827&__tn__=E

Edited July 9, 2017 by jpinx

[sandyf]

16 hours ago, nontabury said:

And the EU will also have to negotiate. Which I think they will do. The alternative is for the UK to simple walk away. And I don't think that will be to the EU's advantage.

 

You mean the illegal alternative would be for the UK to walk away.  That in fact is a myth, the government has already pledged to honour the treaty obligations so there is no alternative to negotiation and the exit agreement, if you can call it that, will up to the EU parliament to approve.

[sandyf]

Is this the same parliamentary democracy that TM spent the taxpayers money on trying to circumvent?

 

"We may not agree on everything, but through debate and discussion - the hallmarks of our parliamentary democracy - ideas can be clarified and improved and a better way forward found."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-brexit-fightback-unshakeable-speech-conservatives-a7832576.html

[Grouse]

10 hours ago, vogie said:

Not like a Yorkshireman t'keep trap shut.

 

 

I'm a polite Yorkshireman!

[sandyf]

17 hours ago, jpinx said:

Fair comment - both the UK and the EU people are guilty of drawing redlines.  Can we move on now, please?  Personally, I don't have strong views anymore - though a year ago I was originally an advocate of "walk-away". Things have moved on now and we will need to negotiate --  in the true sense of the word.

Quite, but it is an unfortunate fact of life that there is nowhere to move on to in the negotiations without red lines popping up. EU citizens rights was the first item on the agenda, difficult to see how this will all be resolved and finalised by March 2019. Its the Irish border next.

 

In strongly worded comments that will be read across the continent, Mr Verhofstadt said: “The European Union has a common mission to extend, enhance and expand rights, not to reduce them. We will never endorse the retroactive removal of acquired rights.”

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-european-citizens-theresa-may-plan-damp-squib-european-parliament-guy-verhofstatdt-a7832246.html

[Orac]

Facts for those who are interested [emoji6]
 
https://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21724810-country-saves-too-much-and-spends-too-little-why-germanys-current-account-surplus-bad?frsc=dg|e
 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-40505337
 
https://mbasic.facebook.com/CDGlenkensSNP/photos/a.1569061763368611.1073741830.1542329606041827/1902993683308749/?type=3&refid=52&_ft_=top_level_post_id.1902998086641642%3Atl_objid.1902998086641642%3Apage_id.1542329606041827%3Athid.1542329606041827&__tn__=E

I don't know where those figures come from in the last graphic but they are pretty much laughable - having worked in airfreight for many years, there is no way the numbers are that low and I would wager a bet that there are more newspapers and periodicals flown out of LHR daily than are showing as being sent in a year in that pic.


Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[sandyf]

Nothing like a bit of clarity.

 

It also makes clear that there can be no extension to the 31 March 2019 deadline, as European parliamentary elections are due to take place in May of that year, by which point the UK must be out.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-european-citizens-theresa-may-plan-damp-squib-european-parliament-guy-verhofstatdt-a7832246.html

[mommysboy]

18 hours ago, Flustered said:

Just watching Euro News and the Spanish Economy Minister Luis de Guindos being interviewed and saying that the EU needs to be reasonable with the UK and stop threatening them. He said that Spain needs a good relationship with the UK and that their economy depends on it.

 

Despite what Junkers and Barnier beat their chests and say, it will be the individual countries elected MPs that have the final say as they have to be held responsible to their electorate. 

 

Junkers and Barnier will have to climb down in the end and face reality. The EU needs the UK far more than the other way round and the various EU countries MPs and ministers know this.

He said : The Spanish economy depends on it?

[jpinx]

2 hours ago, sandyf said:

Quite, but it is an unfortunate fact of life that there is nowhere to move on to in the negotiations without red lines popping up. EU citizens rights was the first item on the agenda, difficult to see how this will all be resolved and finalised by March 2019. Its the Irish border next.

 

In strongly worded comments that will be read across the continent, Mr Verhofstadt said: “The European Union has a common mission to extend, enhance and expand rights, not to reduce them. We will never endorse the retroactive removal of acquired rights.”

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-european-citizens-theresa-may-plan-damp-squib-european-parliament-guy-verhofstatdt-a7832246.html

That's an interesting quote, and can be construed in many different ways.  The arbiter of the interpretation would be the combined "judgment" of the rest of the EU members - through one of it's bodies such as ECJ or EU commission, but the UK isleaving the EU, so the brexiters are hoping that UK will be able to ignore such a judgment.  Remainers cling to the apron strings of the same EU bodies and try to hide from the fact that the UK electorate actually voted for "out" - without conditions.  Pretty much asking their respective politicians to make the best of brexit, even if it was a "walk-away" situation.  There is no perfect right/wrong answer here, and the conditions of brexit will always need some discussion and negotiation, with or without multiple votes/elections based on the same question.

 

 

[nontabury]

13 hours ago, vogie said:

Not like a Yorkshireman t'keep trap shut.

 

 

But he's not a Yorkshireman, his loyalties lie elsewhere.

[dick dasterdly]

18 hours ago, Khun Han said:

 

Ah yes.....the anecdotal 'Every brexiter I know has changed their mind.' Funnily enough, every brexiter I know is more committed to brexit than ever. The only two remainers I know are my daughter (who is worried about gap year travel in Europe) and the husband of a friend of my wife (who thinks being in the EU stops corruption in the UK ).

 

11 hours ago, Khun Han said:

 

Her uni friends told her that British passport holders would have restricted travel in Europe post-brexit, and she believed them .

 

I bet you've been wording up your sister, brother-in-law and niece in Preston, haven't you? ('Who, me? I never talk with anyone about politics!')

Its sad that some people are gullible enough to believe that leaving the EU means that they will no longer be able to easily travel around Europe .

 

Students (and others) have been taking gap years/extended holidays in Europe (and beyond) long before the open borders policy came into effect.

[nontabury]

3 hours ago, sandyf said:

You mean the illegal alternative would be for the UK to walk away.  That in fact is a myth, the government has already pledged to honour the treaty obligations so there is no alternative to negotiation and the exit agreement, if you can call it that, will up to the EU parliament to approve.

We are leaving this so called Union, that's a fact. How do you think the EU negotiators look upon you and other Remoaners. What you are actually doing is helping their negotiators to think that we are divided and therefore weak,and then they will exploit this perceived weakness to their advantage. The decision has been taken, get over it, stand by your fellow countrymen instead of stabbing them in the back.

[dick dasterdly]

15 hours ago, mommysboy said:

Yes I do agree.  You can't have a re-run.  The result must stand.

 

But it is possible for the deal to be voted on, including the option to remain as we are.

 

And if MP's think that any deal is against the national interest it is their duty to vote against it.

I'm inclined to agree that it would probably be a good idea to call another referendum on the final deal proposed by Brit. politicians.

 

It would have to be made very clear whether the current 'rebates' were still available if the result was 'stay' - and there should be three options which would need to be made very clear, with no ambiguity.  In general terms (off the top of my head!), the options should be along the following lines:-

 

.1) Stay - with the terms for remaining made clear by the EU.

2) Accept the negotiated Brit./EU agreement.

3) Leave.

 

Edit - I disagree with the last para.  MPs tend to act (IMO) according to their own, personal interests, and I certainly don't trust them to vote in the national interest!  Plus, they are supposed to represent their constituents' interests - those who voted them in 'power' believing they'd represent them.

Edited July 10, 2017 by dick dasterdly

[Grouse]

3 hours ago, sandyf said:

Quite, but it is an unfortunate fact of life that there is nowhere to move on to in the negotiations without red lines popping up. EU citizens rights was the first item on the agenda, difficult to see how this will all be resolved and finalised by March 2019. Its the Irish border next.

 

In strongly worded comments that will be read across the continent, Mr Verhofstadt said: “The European Union has a common mission to extend, enhance and expand rights, not to reduce them. We will never endorse the retroactive removal of acquired rights.”

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-european-citizens-theresa-may-plan-damp-squib-european-parliament-guy-verhofstatdt-a7832246.html

I like Verhofstadt more and more. Standing up for citizens rights. 

 

Yet again, the UK comes up looking crap. How embarrassing!

 

Look, let's just stay. Better for everyone. Please ?

[nauseus]

17 hours ago, Grouse said:

https://www.economist.com/news/britain/21724775-legally-complex-hard-enforce-and-probably-bad-britain-fishing-case-study

 

Something fishy for Brexiteers to masticate.

The CFP is a wasteful disaster. Never fear, our new Minister of Fisheries the Rt Hon Capt. Pugwash and The Black Pig will protect us!

[Grouse]

53 minutes ago, nontabury said:

But he's not a Yorkshireman, his loyalties lie elsewhere.

I was born in Midlesborough  but went to school in Sheffield; it was a long walk but it were woth it!

 

My father was a Scot and I do like Scotland. I am fairly anti USA (though I enjoyed living there) and certainly anti Muslim. I loved Denmark and enjoyed Germany. My son was born in York.

 

So does that make me not a Yorkshiremen? 

 

I certainly not a w***er though! I'll concede that! ?

[nauseus]

7 minutes ago, Grouse said:

I like Verhofstadt more and more. Standing up for citizens rights. 

 

Yet again, the UK comes up looking crap. How embarrassing!

 

Look, let's just stay. Better for everyone. Please ?

Well you can have him, he's a lying weasel.

[pitrevie]

17 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

I'm inclined to agree that it would probably be a good idea to call another referendum on the final deal proposed by Brit. politicians.

 

It would have to be made very clear whether the current 'rebates' were still available if the result was 'stay' - and there should be three options which would need to be made very clear, with no ambiguity.  In general terms (off the top of my head!), the options should be along the following lines:-

 

.1) Stay - with the terms for remaining made clear by the EU.

2) Accept the negotiated Brit./EU agreement.

3) Leave.

 

Edit - I disagree with the last para.  MPs tend to act (IMO) according to their own, personal interests, and I certainly don't trust them to vote in the national interest!  Plus, they are supposed to represent their constituents' interests - those who voted them in 'power' believing they'd represent them.

I think you need to read Edmund Burke's speech to the electors of Bristol it explains very clearly what representative democracy is all about and why even Thatcher was opposed to referendums.

 

http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/v1ch13s7.html

 

 

 

[Grouse]

1 minute ago, nauseus said:

Well you can have him, he's a lying weasel.

I'd appoint him head of Chelsea and Kensington council!

[Grouse]

23 minutes ago, pitrevie said:

I think you need to read Edmund Burke's speech to the electors of Bristol it explains very clearly what representative democracy is all about and why even Thatcher was opposed to referendums.

 

http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/v1ch13s7.html

 

 

 

So many do not understand this.

 

Should be part of the school curriculum