May ready for tough talks over Brexit

[Flustered]

1 minute ago, ilostmypassword said:

Why does it make sense? If a country can't devalue it's currency or if a currency can't float upwards, it makes economic adjustments vastly more difficult. What exactly does it accomplish? Only if you have a fiscal union where transfer payments can be made from richer regions to poorer would it even remotely make sense. The arguments in favor of it are either emotional or just silly. Like it was so difficult to convert kroner into deutschmarks.

Again, I actually agree with you.

 

A countries ability to re/de value it's currency is a very powerful economic tool.

 

While labour rates, taxes, benefits, work ethics etc are all different, monetary union is impossible.

 

 

[SheungWan]

15 minutes ago, Flustered said:

Has anyone thought how ridiculous Barnier's demands are regarding EU citizens rights in the UK?

 

He wants the EU citizens to have the same rights (laws) as UK citizens in the EU. That is exactly the same as saying an American living in the UK comes under American law. Could you imagine a situation where Barnier would agree to UK citizens in the EU coming under UK law or UK citizens in America coming under UK law. OK we can guarantee that....EU citizens living in the UK and UK citizens living in the EU come under UK law. Problem solved, equal rights.

 

Plain bonkers. You live under the laws of the country you live in. That is the same the whole world over.

 

And this man is the EU's chief negotiator. Makes you cringe.

'You live under the laws of the country you live in.'  Unless the legal system rules against you as per the High Court and the Supreme Court. And then those legal institutions are labelled Enemies Of The People by the Hard Brexiteer crowd.

[SheungWan]

2 minutes ago, Flustered said:

Again, I actually agree with you.

 

A countries ability to re/de value it's currency is a very powerful economic tool.

 

While labour rates, taxes, benefits, work ethics etc are all different, monetary union is impossible.

 

The USA has monetary union with varying labour rates, taxes etc.

[pitrevie]

5 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

Why does it make sense? If a country can't devalue it's currency or if a currency can't float upwards, it makes economic adjustments vastly more difficult. What exactly does it accomplish? Only if you have a fiscal union where transfer payments can be made from richer regions to poorer would it even remotely make sense. The arguments in favor of it are either emotional or just silly. Like it was so difficult to convert kroner into deutschmarks.

I think this article explains it better than ever I could but I fear that it may not be accessible but basically it boils downs to the single currency being a work in progress it was never meant to be a solution to all problems from day 1. 

http://www.economist.com/node/11362788

 

[Flustered]

2 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

'You live under the laws of the country you live in.'  Unless the legal system rules against you as per the High Court and the Supreme Court. And then those legal institutions are labelled Enemies Of The People by the Hard Brexiteer crowd.

We all live under the laws of the country we live in.

 

The courts do not make laws, they interpret them which in many cases leads to very peculiar decisions depending on the political bias of the Judge/Judges in question. 

 

Anyone who thinks that Judges are above political bias is living in cloud cuckoo land (or perhaps London/HK/Thailand).

[Flustered]

4 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

The USA has monetary union with varying labour rates, taxes etc.

Even by your definition, the USA is a single country with a single central banking system (Fed Reserve) and unified Federal taxes. so what is your point?

[pitrevie]

14 minutes ago, Flustered said:

Glad you are watching other sources on information other than the Indi or the Guardian.

 

But to show the fault in your logic, this would mean any trade agreement between countries that creates a single market should have a single currency. Unworkable.

 

We are talking about a single market involving 28 countries most of whom are now using the Euro and from someone at the sharp end that knows a lot more about that sort of thing than either of us apparently it is working well.

In poll after poll it appears the Europeans like the Euro its just the whinging Brits who are not even in the Euro that find cause to complain. Just like the Schengen area, poll after poll shows it enjoys support from Europeans who are in it and the biggest whingers yet again especially on this forum are Brits who are not in it. If you don't believe me mention the Schengen zone to Khun Han

However as with most things you want to go to the extreme every time.

[aright]

6 hours ago, pitrevie said:

"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter." 

 

 

 

 

And the best argument for democracy is a five minute conversation with those living under authoritative rule.

On the balance of benefits I think I will choose democracy 

[pitrevie]

4 minutes ago, aright said:

And the best argument for democracy is a five minute conversation with those living under authoritative rule.

On the balance of benefits I think I will choose democracy 

I think that was the point Churchill was making in the sentence you omitted but he added the downside as well. 

[nauseus]

16 hours ago, SheungWan said:

Independent State not Country. Please get it right for once.....As for the our laws and elected MPs (aka parliamentary democracy) trilled to the sounds of Last Night At The Proms it fair brings tears to my eyes when uttered by our forum Conspiracy Theorist Hard Brexiteers who not so long ago were vehemently demanding Royal Prerogative (don't laugh) and simultaneously being fans of Vladimir Putin well known fan of the democratic process. All bogus of course, but so nicely wrapped in a Union Jack.

It's actually a country comprised of countries but never mind.

[soalbundy]

The head of the national audit office Sir Amyas Morse has said that the government could fall apart like a chocolate orange because of lack of political guidance in the brexit departments, they are being left on their own to decide priorities, there is no energetic political leadership. When David Davis was asked to provide a plan for how leaving the EU would work he couldn't provide one. It is, he said, only just starting to click into governments awareness how complex the task is, there is no unified approach.

[Flustered]

15 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

The head of the national audit office Sir Amyas Morse has said that the government could fall apart like a chocolate orange because of lack of political guidance in the brexit departments, they are being left on their own to decide priorities, there is no energetic political leadership. When David Davis was asked to provide a plan for how leaving the EU would work he couldn't provide one. It is, he said, only just starting to click into governments awareness how complex the task is, there is no unified approach.

And you do not see political bias in this comment?

[soalbundy]

Just now, Flustered said:

And you do not see political bias in this comment?

Not from the head of national audit no, he was imploring the government to lead to make a successful brexit, show me the plan, he said and i will raise my hand. At the moment it is being left to individual heads of departments to prioritise on the most important matter since ww2 and there is no unified plan,David Davis gave him only vague reasons why. He felt the matter so urgent that he felt he had to intervene and tell it as it is.

[mommysboy]

1 hour ago, Flustered said:

Has anyone thought how ridiculous Barnier's demands are regarding EU citizens rights in the UK?

 

He wants the EU citizens to have the same rights (laws) as UK citizens in the EU. That is exactly the same as saying an American living in the UK comes under American law. Could you imagine a situation where Barnier would agree to UK citizens in the EU coming under UK law or UK citizens in America coming under UK law. OK we can guarantee that....EU citizens living in the UK and UK citizens living in the EU come under UK law. Problem solved, equal rights.

 

Plain bonkers. You live under the laws of the country you live in. That is the same the whole world over.

 

And this man is the EU's chief negotiator. Makes you cringe.

Yes I thought it an outrageous demand.  It could be they would have more rights than UK citizens.

 

In fact, I think that would be the case with bringing a spouse in to the country.

 

Why would UK want to give special rights anyway?- thats only negotiated as part of a free trade deal. 

Edited July 13, 2017 by mommysboy

[soalbundy]

Just now, mommysboy said:

Yes I thought it an outrageous demand.  It could be they would have more rights than UK citizens.

 

In fact, I think that would be the case with bringing a spouse in to the country.

As a UK citizen in Germany I had more rights regarding my Thai spouse than a German. After a year i believe she was supposed to show a certain knowledge of the German language which she couldn't we had always spoken Thai together, the foreigners office started humming and haring about giving her further permission to stay when a civil servant marched in with a big book of EU rules which stipulated that as the spouse of a non German EU citizen she wasn't required to speak German.

[pitrevie]

15 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

Not from the head of national audit no, he was imploring the government to lead to make a successful brexit, show me the plan, he said and i will raise my hand. At the moment it is being left to individual heads of departments to prioritise on the most important matter since ww2 and there is no unified plan,David Davis gave him only vague reasons why. He felt the matter so urgent that he felt he had to intervene and tell it as it is.

Another politically biased statement came from HMRC

 

In its first statement on the matter, Her Majesty’s Revenue & Customs told the Treasury select committee it estimates that the number of customs declarations at Dover and elsewhere could rise from 60m a year to 300m a year after the UK leaves the EU.

HMRC also admitted it is no longer sure that it can deliver on time a new customs declaration system for all lorries coming in and out of the ports.

 

 

[soalbundy]

Just now, pitrevie said:

Another politically biased statement came from HMRC

 

In its first statement on the matter, Her Majesty’s Revenue & Customs told the Treasury select committee it estimates that the number of customs declarations at Dover and elsewhere could rise from 60m a year to 300m a year after the UK leaves the EU.

HMRC also admitted it is no longer sure that it can deliver on time a new customs declaration system for all lorries coming in and out of the ports.

 

 

It is the typical British way of muddling through although I don't think that luck is on their side this time. I believe it was an Italian politician who revealed that there is a committee looking into what measures to take when the UK makes a U turn and decides to stay.

[soalbundy]

5 minutes ago, pitrevie said:

Another politically biased statement came from HMRC

 

In its first statement on the matter, Her Majesty’s Revenue & Customs told the Treasury select committee it estimates that the number of customs declarations at Dover and elsewhere could rise from 60m a year to 300m a year after the UK leaves the EU.

HMRC also admitted it is no longer sure that it can deliver on time a new customs declaration system for all lorries coming in and out of the ports.

 

 

My brother owns a firm employing around 30 people in London ( he himself has enough brains to clear off and live in Australia) He imports goods from France and fears that the chaos is going to be so big he will have to close the firm.

[onthesoi]

In a statement, Moody’s says that the UK’s creditworthiness is under pressure following last summer’s vote to leave EU

 

The UK economy has started to slow, and Moody’s expects the UK economy to weaken significantly through the remainder of this year, with the baseline scenario seeing growth declining to 1.5% this year and 1.0% in 2018, compared to 1.8% in 2016.

 

 

On Brexit, the governor of the Bank of England said Britain's divorce from the block is set to result in "weaker real income growth", job losses and price rises, but added that monetary policy has limited power to prevent economic weakness.

"Since the prospect of Brexit emerged, financial markets, notably sterling, have marked down the UK's economic prospects.

"Monetary policy cannot prevent the weaker real income growth likely to accompany the transition to new trading arrangements with the EU.

-----------

 

Say hello to inflation, further currency devaluation, QE and recession.

 

But, don't worry cos Boris Johnson will be in charge.

 

 

Edited July 13, 2017 by onthesoi

[goldenbrwn1]

45 minutes ago, onthesoi said:

In a statement, Moody’s says that the UK’s creditworthiness is under pressure following last summer’s vote to leave EU

 

The UK economy has started to slow, and Moody’s expects the UK economy to weaken significantly through the remainder of this year, with the baseline scenario seeing growth declining to 1.5% this year and 1.0% in 2018, compared to 1.8% in 2016.

 

 

On Brexit, the governor of the Bank of England said Britain's divorce from the block is set to result in "weaker real income growth", job losses and price rises, but added that monetary policy has limited power to prevent economic weakness.

"Since the prospect of Brexit emerged, financial markets, notably sterling, have marked down the UK's economic prospects.

"Monetary policy cannot prevent the weaker real income growth likely to accompany the transition to new trading arrangements with the EU.

-----------

 

Say hello to inflation, further currency devaluation, QE and recession.

 

But, don't worry cos Boris Johnson will be in charge.

 

 

You sound pleased.  What if the UK comes through unscathed and keeps on growing ? Even though the uk economy is still growing ( albeit a bit slower), would you be sad? Would it make your life seem fulfilled if the UK economy fell through the floor and it then came crawling back to the EU with cap in hand?  Oh and that moody statement is over a week old and who the hell takes any notice of them ratings agencies as serious as they did pre 2009 anyway. 

 

I just find it hard to believe that people seem to love the idea of the UK failing and its economy to fall into the abyss.  What are yours and others on here actual benefits for this scenario ?

Edited July 13, 2017 by goldenbrwn1

[ilostmypassword]

3 minutes ago, goldenbrwn1 said:

You sound pleased.  What if the UK comes through unscathed and keeps on growing ? Even though the uk economy is still growing ( albeit a bit slower), would you be sad? Would it make your life seem fulfilled if the UK economy fell through the floor and it then came crawling back to the EU with cap in hand?  Oh and that moody statement is over a week old and who the hell takes any notice of them ratings agencies as serious as they did pre 2009 anyway. 

As crucially important to the debate as onthesoi's feelings are, they will hardly change the facts. Still, I'm sure onthesoi will be flattered that you asked. 

[soalbundy]

1 minute ago, goldenbrwn1 said:

You sound pleased.  What if the UK comes through unscathed and keeps on growing ? Even though the uk economy is still growing ( albeit a bit slower), would you be sad? Would it make your life seem fulfilled if the UK economy fell through the floor and it then came crawling back to the EU with cap in hand?  Oh and that moody statement is over a week old and who the hell takes any notice of them ratings agencies as serious as they did pre 2009 anyway. 

Unscathed and growing ? We all know that wont happen even the biggest 'by jingo' flag waving imperialists admit several years of pain (probably decades) Yes it would make me happy to see these 'British is best' patriots come crawling back and have to ditch the pound, it would make me unhappy to see them accepted, they have made their bed let them lie in it.

[goldenbrwn1]

13 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

Unscathed and growing ? We all know that wont happen even the biggest 'by jingo' flag waving imperialists admit several years of pain (probably decades) Yes it would make me happy to see these 'British is best' patriots come crawling back and have to ditch the pound, it would make me unhappy to see them accepted, they have made their bed let them lie in it.

Wow and there we have it. That's one (at least honest) Brit hater out the way.

Edited July 13, 2017 by goldenbrwn1

[aright]

In a nutshell. Why do so many remainers try to justify their vote by preaching they hope Brexit is a complete disaster.

[onthesoi]

34 minutes ago, goldenbrwn1 said:

58 minutes ago, onthesoi said:

In a statement, Moody’s says that the UK’s creditworthiness is under pressure following last summer’s vote to leave EU

 

The UK economy has started to slow, and Moody’s expects the UK economy to weaken significantly through the remainder of this year, with the baseline scenario seeing growth declining to 1.5% this year and 1.0% in 2018, compared to 1.8% in 2016.

 

 

On Brexit, the governor of the Bank of England said Britain's divorce from the block is set to result in "weaker real income growth", job losses and price rises, but added that monetary policy has limited power to prevent economic weakness.

"Since the prospect of Brexit emerged, financial markets, notably sterling, have marked down the UK's economic prospects.

"Monetary policy cannot prevent the weaker real income growth likely to accompany the transition to new trading arrangements with the EU.

-----------

 

Say hello to inflation, further currency devaluation, QE and recession.

 

But, don't worry cos Boris Johnson will be in charge.

 

You sound pleased.  What if the UK comes through unscathed and keeps on growing ? Even though the uk economy is still growing ( albeit a bit slower), would you be sad? Would it make your life seem fulfilled if the UK economy fell through the floor and it then came crawling back to the EU with cap in hand?  Oh and that moody statement is over a week old and who the hell takes any notice of them ratings agencies as serious as they did pre 2009 anyway. 

 

I just find it hard to believe that people seem to love the idea of the UK failing and its economy to fall into the abyss.  What are yours and others on here actual benefits for this scenario ?

 

Which part of my fact based post led you to believe I'm pleased? ...you sound paranoid!

 

You're complaining about the Moody's statement being a week old( lolz, talk about clutching at straws) but their comment covers a financial UK projection into 2018, who listens to Moody you ask? ...the lenders the UK borrow money from that is who!

 

What if the UK comes through unscathed and keeps on growing ?

 

What if Jesus comes back and we don't need money?

Edited July 13, 2017 by onthesoi

[mommysboy]

1 hour ago, soalbundy said:

Not from the head of national audit no, he was imploring the government to lead to make a successful brexit, show me the plan, he said and i will raise my hand. At the moment it is being left to individual heads of departments to prioritise on the most important matter since ww2 and there is no unified plan,David Davis gave him only vague reasons why. He felt the matter so urgent that he felt he had to intervene and tell it as it is.

Ahh... the plan. It is something which is strikingly absent.

[goldenbrwn1]

11 minutes ago, onthesoi said:

 

Which part of my fact led post led you you to believe I'm pleased?

 

What if the UK comes through unscathed and keeps on growing ?

 

What if Jesus comes back and we don't need money?

Lots of positive or non negative fact led links or posts also on brexit if you could bring yourself to read them as to maybe get some balance.  So how would you feel if in 2 or so years time the UK came out of it smelling of flowers?  

 

I know your first post response might be '2 or so years am I mad ect ect' . But seriously  would you be ok with a prosperous UK outside of the EU?  Btw I'm not some nutty flag waving hard brexiteer , I voted remain and would prefer a can't we all just get along scenario playing out , and a nice smooth soft brexit. But I just dont get the smugness I feel from hard remainer people on here every time there's a negative new story for the UK. 

Edited July 13, 2017 by goldenbrwn1

[mommysboy]

1 hour ago, soalbundy said:

As a UK citizen in Germany I had more rights regarding my Thai spouse than a German. After a year i believe she was supposed to show a certain knowledge of the German language which she couldn't we had always spoken Thai together, the foreigners office started humming and haring about giving her further permission to stay when a civil servant marched in with a big book of EU rules which stipulated that as the spouse of a non German EU citizen she wasn't required to speak German.

Great for you, but utterly absurd.

[perthperson]

1 minute ago, mommysboy said:

Ahh... the plan. It is something which is strikingly absent.

Only the extremely naive believe there is no plan or that the detail of that plan should be debated with the public.........

[SheungWan]

1 minute ago, goldenbrwn1 said:

Lots of positive or non negative fact led links or posts also on brexit if you could bring yourself to read them as to maybe get some balance.  So how would you feel if in 2 or so years time the UK came out of it smelling of flowers?  

 

I know your first post response might be '2 or so years am I mad ect ect' . Would you be ok with a prosperous UK outside of the EU?

Ah yes, smelling of flowers.... Breaking news: UK public finances fail stress tests set for banks says Britain's independent fiscal watchdog the OBR (Office for Budgetary Responsibility)