May ready for tough talks over Brexit

[SheungWan]

14 minutes ago, Flustered said:

Wake up. There is a finite amount of land to build on and a finite amount of food that can be grown to feed people.

 

A growing population is a recipe for disaster. If you cannot see that this is the problem, then you are part of the problem. 

 

It's like one of our Omanie technicians used to say when asked who would provide for his wife an 14 children. Answer was of course "Allah will provide".

 

The world has too many people in it, we need a new black plague or some disaster to reduce this. Even China has realised that it has grown too big.

Behind bad politics one usually finds the adoption of some outmoded economic theory. eg Malthus, Henry George etc.

Edited July 19, 2017 by SheungWan

[Flustered]

1 minute ago, SheungWan said:

I doubt it as the population loss estimated to have been 35-40%

Sounds good to me as long as I am not one of them. 555

[soalbundy]

3 minutes ago, Flustered said:

Wake up. There is a finite amount of land to build on and a finite amount of food that can be grown to feed people.

 

A growing population is a recipe for disaster. If you cannot see that this is the problem, then you are part of the problem. 

 

It's like one of our Omanie technicians used to say when asked who would provide for his wife an 14 children. Answer was of course "Allah will provide".

 

The world has too many people in it, we need a new black plague or some disaster to reduce this. Even China has realised that it has grown too big.

You are right that population growth is a problem but strangely enough it is slowing down, not because people are more sensible,children have become a luxury but that has its disadvantages as we see in pensions for example or for growth, most people have the basics that they need (I'm not talking about the third world of course) and yet the stock market screams out for growth and dividends, where to get that if nobody is buying. China has reverted its one child policy but very few are buying into it, pour money into the one child's education, all hail the little prince. The problem is the old, like myself, once we are gone the world will be a little more relaxed as long as there are generations that will follow on.

[Flustered]

Just now, SheungWan said:

Behind bad politics one usually finds the adoption of some outmoded economic theory.

I agree. The notion that more people create more money creates more work creates better life style is completely out dated.

 

Come the Big Bang, it will be too late to wake up to this sad fact.

[soalbundy]

3 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

I doubt it as the population loss estimated to have been 35-40%

Yes but it rejuvenated society throughout Europe, fewer workers meant that the lords of the manor had to increase wages to attract workers for the land, living standards rose and the lords had less and less hold on the peasants, guilds held power, common merchants became powerful and the towns attracted more and more people, the days of the knights and feudal batons was in decline. Every cloud has a silver lining.

[soalbundy]

7 minutes ago, Flustered said:

I agree. The notion that more people create more money creates more work creates better life style is completely out dated.

 

Come the Big Bang, it will be too late to wake up to this sad fact.

Not more people but more young people, we oldies have to make way but that will occur naturally, I hope. After that one should have a vibrant self sustaining society that has learnt its lessons, maybe that's too much to ask.

[beautifulthailand99]

12 hours ago, Laughing Gravy said:

I hate to say it but this thread is losing its appeal and objectivity for me. There is a clear divide between those who voted to stay and those that voted to leave. What is clear to me the many arguments posted by TV members on the remain, are all could be, maybe, possible and might be. This has been the case since the vote in June 2016. Predictions that have not happened and may happen in the future. We haven't even left the EU yet and it would seem the EU is trying anyway they can, to keep us in. The media and other Europhiles are trying their best to paint a picture of doom without the EU, which I find farcical.

 

What is clear is that the talks have started and there will be lots of chests thrust out and fists banging. Those here who champion the cause of the EU still seem to demand the UK should stay in. Why when, their seems to be an anger and even appetite for the UK to be destroyed economically.  If the hate for the UK is so strong why doesn't the other member states just say goodbye, we don't want you. The questions answers itself.

 

From  the express today which sums up the position the UK is in for me. The glass is half full not empty.

 

"But this study offers a more rounded perspective. It reminds us not to lose sight of the UK’s potent global strengths."

She added: “Our country’s spirit of entrepreneurialism, mastery of technology and renowned business environment all point to a long term, collective, ability to rebuild our economy after Brexit.

"The UK possesses the characteristics to not only withstand, but also capitalize on major change.

"I hope every business leader is looking not just at the risks of Brexit but also the opportunities.” 

 

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/830275/Britain-global-change-Brexit-Boom-KMPG

I'm done - this is not a joke , people are going to get hurt , really hurt including many of the myopic cheerleaders for this monstrous farce. Like I have said before I don't blame those that bought the lies just the ones that sold them (down the river). Glad to say I'm pretty well off and am now making investment decisions based on Brexit will be a disaster. Enjoy your 30 baht pound ....

[Khun Han]

1 hour ago, mommysboy said:

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-david-davis-free-trade-migration-labour-laws-low-taxes-a7845421.html

 

Is this not the stark truth whether there is Brexit, or not?  I fear so.

 

"Surviving hard Brexit will require sacrifices not seen since the Second World War

In reality the only sensible way to make the UK a success is by another dose of full-on free market economics. In the short term that means unemployment; depressed wages because of more, not less migration; scrapping the living wage; no increase in public sector pay and tax breaks for corporations."

 

 

 

 

No, it's not the stark truth. All the infantile digs at brexit and brexiters give the game away. Only a hardline remain romantic could read that tosh and keep a straight face.

[Khun Han]

31 minutes ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

I'm done - this is not a joke , people are going to get hurt , really hurt including many of the myopic cheerleaders for this monstrous farce. Like I have said before I don't blame those that bought the lies just the ones that sold them (down the river). Glad to say I'm pretty well off and am now making investment decisions based on Brexit will be a disaster. Enjoy your 30 baht pound ....

 

Bye bye drama queen. Don't let the door.....

[Flustered]

45 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

Not more people but more young people, we oldies have to make way but that will occur naturally, I hope. After that one should have a vibrant self sustaining society that has learnt its lessons, maybe that's too much to ask.

Think it through. The population is growing as more people are being born than die so after we are gone there will be even more people. Then they will want more people to fuel the economy. Advances in medicine will allow people to grow even older in the years to come. In 2016 in the UK which is not known for its high birth rate, the average was 1.81 children per female. In other continents such as Africa it is over 3 per female.It is simply unsustainable.

 

It is a vicious (OK SW?) circle that has to be broken.

[Flustered]

51 minutes ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

I'm done - this is not a joke , people are going to get hurt , really hurt including many of the myopic cheerleaders for this monstrous farce. Like I have said before I don't blame those that bought the lies just the ones that sold them (down the river). Glad to say I'm pretty well off and am now making investment decisions based on Brexit will be a disaster. Enjoy your 30 baht pound ....

A last gasp attempt to escalate Project Fear.

[Flustered]

1 hour ago, SheungWan said:

Behind bad politics one usually finds the adoption of some outmoded economic theory. eg Malthus, Henry George etc.

Although Henry George had many views including those on poverty, I did not realise he had views in increasing populations and the debt they create and the obtaining of money to finance this debt. However, I bow to your professed greater intellectual knowledge.

[mommysboy]

2 hours ago, Flustered said:

Immigration is only making matters worse, not better. It is a viscous circle.

 

The more people you bring in, the more children they have, the more money is needed to support all of these people in local services such as schooling and health so more tax has to be raised and more money has to be borrowed. Then as they grow old, more money is required for pensions and health.

 

The cycle never ends with a growing population, it is false economics. The population needs reducing so that the cost of services goes down not up. It really is that simple.

I dont think it is so simple.  In order to be so then you would have to have cohorts of the population wiped out, ie, the elderly, and infirm, and the unemployed;  I take it nobody is in favour of that!  Other non-selective but unpopular measures might include plague, or nuclear war.

 

Efficiency cuts may be good in the short run, but then go on to create less demand for goods and services, which depresses the economy, reduces the tax take, and prompts more cuts, and so on. A reducing population has the same effect.  I'm afraid the belt tightening we practise at home is not suitable for macro-economics.

 

Younger people are generally good for the economy since they create taxes, and tend not to be a burden on the welfare system.  The old uns have done their bit of course and they paid during their working years.  But the problem is nobody foresaw the population living so long, or the health problems brought about by modern living- obesity, diabetes 2, alcohol issues, as well as chronic illness caused by diesel fumes.

 

I suppose if one was to be canny about immigration, then only the young, well qualified, and healthy would be admitted, but I doubt this would go down too well.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 19, 2017 by mommysboy

[mommysboy]

The thing that confuses me is the definition of poverty.  As a lad I gained the notion that poverty meant an empty stomach, threadbare clothes and slum housing.  It's not that UK can not sustain its population in a basic sense- it's more that people seem to have incredible expectations about what life should bring them.  Even forty years ago, it was assumed that if you were working class you could not own a property, yet many millions now seem to feel hard done by if they can't. And there are numerous other examples. Consumerism has benefits of course, but it has created an awful lot of problems; it's almost like an addiction, where more and more results in less and less satisfaction.  it's made worse by the fact that no generation likes to be worse off than the previous one- that is a heck of a tough one to pass on to our kids.

 

Any future government has a hard sell, reorientating the population back to standards last seen post war.  I don't think things will deteriorate to Greece levels, but there is no way any government can continue providing current levels of social welfare.

 

 

[nontabury]

7 hours ago, soalbundy said:

well I can't say resent, I think it's a mistake but as you say I have no cards in the game. I do think the expression 'take our country back' is rather stupid, it implies that the ordinary person has some influence on policies which affect them, apart from the 4 yearly cross on the ballot paper they don't, they don't anywhere. One would think from some comments that due to the EU everyone is walking around in chains. Admittedly there is a flood of regulations from enthusiastic civil servants in Brussels but that doesn't really affect most people and much of the regulations,some stupid of course, have done a lot of good especially in respect of the environment, food hygiene and workers rights. My father was a whole seller in New Covent Garden (turned over millions each year) he would write to me angrily about the food safety regulations from the EU, he didn't like it that unloaded vegetable boxes had to be placed on wooden duck boards to keep the street dirt from the vegetables or that his huge refrigerators ( like rooms really) had to be cleaned and inspected at regular intervals and the temperature controls checked etc. 'We've never had to do that before,how dare they'' Book keeping was also regulated which stopped a lot of 'bung money' as it was called.''How am I supposed to get rid of my black money''

 

I can't see the positives of leaving,what I find amusing is the true blue Brit flag waving and rabble rousing from such papers as the 'Express,' reminiscent of Victorian times almost, I hate sentiment, I remember watching on TV the fleet sail out to the Falklands and people singing don't cry for me Argentina, it made me laugh.

I wonder if your LONDON market trader father,knew this guys father?

 

 

 

[nontabury]

12 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

 

 

Any future government has a hard sell, reorientating the population back to standards last seen post war.  I don't think things will deteriorate to Greece levels, but there is no way any government can continue providing current levels of social welfare.

 

 

Agree, and that includes, even if we stay in the E.U.

[mommysboy]

Just now, nontabury said:

Agree, and that includes, even if we stay in the E.U.

As I said previously, I believe Brexit is a convenient distraction.  It will have some effect- good or bad, but in the scheme of things there are much more compelling issue.  Brexit is not a stand alone solution that's for sure!  And yes, neither is remaining.

[Flustered]

53 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

The thing that confuses me is the definition of poverty. 

Sometimes you amaze me with pearls of wisdom.

 

Today peoples expectations have raised the definition of poverty to what would almost be considered luxury back in the 50s. As it is in life, everything is relative.

 

As a children growing up after the war, we were used to rationing of food, make do and mend on clothes, all sitting round a coal fire in the winter, the water pipes regularly bursting during freezing weather but we were considered well off. True poverty was all too evident in the other children that had free school meals, lice in their hair and clothes that were falling apart.

 

No one expects top go back to these levels, but when the depression comes and it will, you will see food crises, fuel crisis and mass unemployment simply because we cannot sustain the growing population. People will not accept reductions in living standards and when leaders like Jeremy Corbyn offer free this and free that there is a price down the line to pay.

 

Prophet of Doom? No simple logic that states that there is a finite amount of food you can grow and unless you build massive tower blocks a finite amount of land to build upon. Public debt and services will suck money out of the economy leading to runs on banks and a collapse of the monetary system. It has already happened on a small scale but for those of you who will still be alive in 30 or 40 years time, I would start planning now

 

Come back in 10 years time and tell me I am wrong when the Chinese banking system collapses due to massive debts which have been caused by the building of houses and flats that the average person cannot afford. These debts are hidden in the books in the same way that America and other countries hid their toxic stock, showing the unsold houses and debt  as assets at full cost.

 

The crash of 2007/8 will seem like a boom time compared with what's down the road.

[nauseus]

4 hours ago, soalbundy said:

Not more people but more young people, we oldies have to make way but that will occur naturally, I hope. After that one should have a vibrant self sustaining society that has learnt its lessons, maybe that's too much to ask.

Yes, that's it! As youngsters we believed we would never get old! 

[Laughing Gravy]

12 hours ago, Grouse said:

I do admire your unshakable optimism, Gravy! Haven't heard from you for a while. Hols?

 

One of the big difficulties in the U.K. Which has nothing to do with Brexit is venture capital. How does an entrepreneur ( WARNING FRENCH WORD) get funding? Seed capital can be found but the crucial 1M to 10M is very difficult.

 

Then we have business management and marketing. All those MBAs! Where are the benefits?

 

The Brexit angle is that we do get oodles of research funds and a huge local market like the USA. Such a boon.

 

I've had venture capital start ups three times now. It's not easy! We have more pointy heads per sq ft than anywhere in the world. Benefitting from that is not easy.

 

I would like to see more tech, eng, science types closer to the controls. 

Yes I was in the UK for 3 weeks. I travelled in 3 parts of England and also to Wales. It was very interesting talking to people who live in the UK and also to Migrants who work there and their views on Brexit and the UK. How different London is and the people you meet and their views. It dis give me an insight into certain views.

 

I did read the threads when I could.

 

I am optimistic, it is in my personality and working practices. As for tech, eng and science I agree and I do think at times we forget that the UK is still a leader in some of these areas.

[Laughing Gravy]

7 hours ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

I'm done - this is not a joke , people are going to get hurt , really hurt including many of the myopic cheerleaders for this monstrous farce. Like I have said before I don't blame those that bought the lies just the ones that sold them (down the river). Glad to say I'm pretty well off and am now making investment decisions based on Brexit will be a disaster. Enjoy your 30 baht pound ....

Oh come on lets stop this 'run for the hills mentality'. As I am paid in baht it wouldn't affect me but if that what it took for the Uk to be autonomous from the EU, then I would be happy. export would be booming. So how exactly are people going (that maybe, possibly, will be word).

 

The EU and the Euro is hardly an amazing economic stronghold. Come on lets not be a doomsday prepper and have some faith in your countries ability and standing in the world, if you are from the UK that is.

[vogie]

A Labour MP talking sense.

 

 

[Jip99]

9 hours ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

I'm done - this is not a joke , people are going to get hurt , really hurt including many of the myopic cheerleaders for this monstrous farce. Like I have said before I don't blame those that bought the lies just the ones that sold them (down the river). Glad to say I'm pretty well off and am now making investment decisions based on Brexit will be a disaster. Enjoy your 30 baht pound ....

 

Looks like YOU bought Project Fear.

[Momofarang]

1 hour ago, Laughing Gravy said:

The EU and the Euro is hardly an amazing economic stronghold. Come on lets not be a doomsday prepper and have some faith in your countries ability and standing in the world, if you are from the UK that is.

"The EU and the Euro" precisely  the conjunction. Sadly the EMS was the optimal solution for the 50 or 70 years to come. Ironically, Britain by sticking to the Sterling was in a privileged position in the EU. And yet the fear of immigration and populist lies led to this corny Brexit. To add insult to injury it lead to the departure of a remarkable prime minister, a man who asked the people to bite the bullet, and delivered, unlike some other European leaders.

[Jip99]

3 minutes ago, Momofarang said:

"The EU and the Euro" precisely  the conjunction. Sadly the EMS was the optimal solution for the 50 or 70 years to come. Ironically, Britain by sticking to the Sterling was in a privileged position in the EU. And yet the fear of immigration and populist lies led to this corny Brexit. To add insult to injury it lead to the departure of a remarkable prime minister, a man who asked the people to bite the bullet, and delivered, unlike some other European leaders.

 

Cameron delivered ??

 

 

Pleeeease.....

[Momofarang]

16 minutes ago, Jip99 said:

 

Cameron delivered ??

 

 

Pleeeease.....

 

[Jip99]

27 minutes ago, Momofarang said:

 

 

 

 

This is a Brexit thread...............................

[Momofarang]

1 hour ago, Jip99 said:

 

 

 

This is a Brexit thread...............................

Indeed..

[SheungWan]

4 hours ago, vogie said:

A Labour MP talking sense.

 

 

Doncaster MP. Doncaster voted 69/31 out so she is trying to protect the the Brexit vote who Labour lost in the referendum. Same as Corbyn. Some people have short memories re Labour's split over Corbyn's Brexit performance. She wouldn't last 5 minutes with that performance in London

[SheungWan]

6 hours ago, Laughing Gravy said:

Yes I was in the UK for 3 weeks. I travelled in 3 parts of England and also to Wales. It was very interesting talking to people who live in the UK and also to Migrants who work there and their views on Brexit and the UK. How different London is and the people you meet and their views. It dis give me an insight into certain views.

 

I did read the threads when I could.

 

I am optimistic, it is in my personality and working practices. As for tech, eng and science I agree and I do think at times we forget that the UK is still a leader in some of these areas.

I hope you covered up your flat cap, braces and cloggies in London.