May ready for tough talks over Brexit

[mommysboy]

Quite a few of us right from day one noted that a complete break was the only possible solution that also fitted the idea of quitting the EU.  However, it appears it is simply not possible to do this because only a minority want it, and the costs to Britain politically and economically could be recklessly high.

 

The prospect of a fudge is the worst solution of all.  Any sensible person with feet on the ground, who really cared for the country and understood the value of money, would conclude that Brexit is simply not feasible at this juncture in time.

[vogie]

3 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

Quite a few of us right from day one noted that a complete break was the only possible solution that also fitted the idea of quitting the EU.  However, it appears it is simply not possible to do this because only a minority want it, and the costs to Britain politically and economically could be recklessly high.

 

The prospect of a fudge is the worst solution of all.  Any sensible person with feet on the ground, who really cared for the country and understood the value of money, would conclude that Brexit is simply not feasible at this juncture in time.

I think you lose the high moral ground there when you say "Any sensible person with feet on the ground, who really cared for the country and understood the value of money, would conclude that Brexit is simply not feasible at this juncture in time." Do you honestly think our President Juncker is a sensible person?

[SheungWan]

32 minutes ago, Jip99 said:

 

 

These studies should have have been carried out before Cameron announced the referendum!

 

Additionally, your point is irrelevant, as is the naively insult, the cost didn’t matter. I didn’t change my mind about divorcing my first wife just because the settlement wasn’t to my liking.

 

A decision is made and the consequences follow - you then deal with that and develop a prosperous future.

As far as I am aware, your choice to proceed with your divorce does not legally oblige others to behave similarly. But anyway, thank you for explaining that you could have reversed the decision had you so chosen to do so. Decisions such as filing for divorce are not irreversible.

[mommysboy]

2 minutes ago, vogie said:

I think you lose the high moral ground there when you say "Any sensible person with feet on the ground, who really cared for the country and understood the value of money, would conclude that Brexit is simply not feasible at this juncture in time." Do you honestly think our President Juncker is a sensible person?

I don't think that anyone who argues that it is wise to go ahead with Brexit now is a sensible person, and feel no need for comparisons with Juncker, or uncle Tom Cobley and all.

[SheungWan]

5 minutes ago, vogie said:

I think you lose the high moral ground there when you say "Any sensible person with feet on the ground, who really cared for the country and understood the value of money, would conclude that Brexit is simply not feasible at this juncture in time." Do you honestly think our President Juncker is a sensible person?

A sensible person might have trouble following a logical argument from the above. Ipso facto gone walkies.

[vogie]

1 minute ago, mommysboy said:

I don't think that anyone who argues that it is wise to go ahead with Brexit now is a sensible person, and feel no need for comparisons with Juncker, or uncle Tom Cobley and all.

You are basicly saying, anyone that disagrees with me is not sensible, I find that very questionable.

[vogie]

1 minute ago, SheungWan said:

A sensible person might have trouble following a logical argument from the above. Ipso facto gone walkies.

Stick to what you're good at.

[aright]

19 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

I don't think that anyone who argues that it is wise to go ahead with Brexit now is a sensible person, and feel no need for comparisons with Juncker, or uncle Tom Cobley and all.

This disrespects the wishes of the 17 million people who voted to leave at the referendum and 82% of the electorate who a short while ago at the National election voted for political parties whose manifestos said they would leave the EU.  Compared to you all these people lack common sense do they?

[simoh1490]

17 minutes ago, vogie said:

You are basicly saying, anyone that disagrees with me is not sensible, I find that very questionable.

Not really, I think what's being said is that the picture that is emerging of no assessments et al, means we're on the wrong road and most sensible people know that.

[mommysboy]

17 minutes ago, vogie said:

You are basicly saying, anyone that disagrees with me is not sensible, I find that very questionable.

I guess so.  To expand: I would say that person is either acting malignly, or has been so gripped by some sway that he or she has lost sound judgement.

 

The vote has been won.  At some point in time it will need to be acted upon.  However, anyone with any sense can see that moment is not now for a number of reasons that should not need clarification.  If it was your business where your personal fortune was on the line, you wouldn't go ahead, would you?

[simoh1490]

4 minutes ago, aright said:

This disrespects the wishes of the 17 million people who voted to leave at the referendum and 82% of the electorate who a short while ago at the National election voted for political parties whose manifestos said they would leave the EU.  Compared to you all these people lack common sense do they?

Personally, I'm more worried about the wishes of the other 48 million and what they think today, not what the 17 million thought eighteen months ago.

[aright]

4 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

 However, anyone with any sense can see that moment is not now 

The insult of arrogance

[mommysboy]

5 minutes ago, aright said:

This disrespects the wishes of the 17 million people who voted to leave at the referendum and 82% of the electorate who a short while ago at the National election voted for political parties whose manifestos said they would leave the EU.  Compared to you all these people lack common sense do they?

There are two points here, though I do also take your point, and at some point the vote must be respected.

 

1. Most did not vote for what appears to be manifesting.  Given the choice, even the majority of Brexiteers do not want hard Brexit.

2.  Sometimes we want something, sometimes we win the right to try for it, but if there is no true will behind it, we encounter irresistable obstacles, or we simply don't have the heft to bring it about then sadly it can't happen.  You have to look at the cost of a victory, because it can lose a war!

[vogie]

2 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

I guess so.  To expand: I would say that person is either acting malignly, or has been so gripped by some sway that he or she has lost sound judgement.

 

The vote has been won.  At some point in time it will need to be acted upon.  However, anyone with any sense can see that moment is not now for a number of reasons that should not need clarification.  If it was your business where your personal fortune was on the line, you wouldn't go ahead, would you?

Again another insult, I am sure, nay positive that there a lot of people with more sense than the wrexiteers who would disagree with you. Don't you think it is a little arrogant to say that we are right and you are wrong. 

[aright]

2 minutes ago, simoh1490 said:

Personally, I'm more worried about the wishes of the other 48 million and what they think today, not what the 17 million thought eighteen months ago.

No thought then for the 82% of the electorate who voted  pro Brexit at the last National Election.

That's selective analysis

[Jip99]

51 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

Decisions such as filing for divorce are not irreversible.

 

 

Once the relationship had broken down I can assure you it was irreversible.

 

Thankfully Brexit will not be reversed.

Edited December 7, 2017 by Jip99

[mommysboy]

18 minutes ago, vogie said:

Again another insult, I am sure, nay positive that there a lot of people with more sense than the wrexiteers who would disagree with you. Don't you think it is a little arrogant to say that we are right and you are wrong. 

 

I am not insulting you or anyone else.  If I was the PM and cared only for doing the job properly and in the interests of the UK then that would be my decision.  With what we know, who would make any other?

 

There is nothing here that remotely smacks of due diligence, is there?  It's not a question of right and wrong: it's about good governance and sound judgement.  And yes, the will of the people should not be discounted. But do you think it was a vote to leave at any cost?

 

I ask again: if this was your business and your investment on the line, would you honestly go ahead?

 

 

[vogie]

5 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

 

I am not insulting you or anyone else.  If I was the PM and cared only for doing the job properly and in the interests of the UK then that would be my decision.  With what we know, who would make any other?

 

There is nothing here that remotely smacks of due diligence, is there?  It's not a question of right and wrong: it's about good governance and sound judgement.  And yes, the will of the people should not be discounted. But do you think it was a vote to leave at any cost?

 

I ask again: if this was your business and your investment on the line, would you honestly go ahead?

 

 

I will answer your first 'my business on the line' simply there will be winners and there will be losers, simple as that. 

 

At the end of the day it is your interpretation of what will happen, not mine. And untill I see the 7 horses of the apocalypse we will be fine.

 

 

[mommysboy]

4 minutes ago, vogie said:

I will answer your first 'my business on the line' simply there will be winners and there will be losers, simple as that. 

 

At the end of the day it is your interpretation of what will happen, not mine. And untill I see the 7 horses of the apocalypse we will be fine.

 

 

You (hopefully) would not make such a big investment on the toss of a coin, announcing simply that there will be 'winners and losers' on the mere hope that 'we will be fine'.

 

 

Edited December 7, 2017 by mommysboy

[vogie]

13 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

You (hopefully) would not make such a big investment on the toss of a coin, announcing simply that there will be 'winners and losers' on the mere hope that 'we will be fine'.

 

 

But that is exactly what is going to happen, like it or not. 

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, mommysboy said:

There are two points here, though I do also take your point, and at some point the vote must be respected.

 

1. Most did not vote for what appears to be manifesting.  Given the choice, even the majority of Brexiteers do not want hard Brexit.

2.  Sometimes we want something, sometimes we win the right to try for it, but if there is no true will behind it, we encounter irresistable obstacles, or we simply don't have the heft to bring it about then sadly it can't happen.  You have to look at the cost of a victory, because it can lose a war!

I am feeling sleepy...sleepy

[nauseus]

2 hours ago, AlexRich said:

The post-referendum sterling plunge helped him on his way ... and much more to come should the “no deal” zealots get their way.

 

The world of today and the future will require more partnerships with neighbours, not less. When you join a trading bloc you accept compromise in return for trading links and added security .. you also avoid destructive wars, with fewer bright eyed young men full of potential having their lives cut short by opponent countries gripped by nationalism. We have our own currency, our own tax rates, and our own legal system. The idea that the EU has somehow wrecked the UK’s ability to make its own decisions is a sad joke, an illusion pedalled by those that hanker for a halcyon period in British history that never existed. In 10 years a big percentage who voted for this will be dead ... indeed, some already are. What a mess they will leave behind.

Such beautiful words.

[Jip99]

19 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Such beautiful words.

 

 

I thought it was <deleted>!  ?

 

[simoh1490]

2 hours ago, aright said:

No thought then for the 82% of the electorate who voted  pro Brexit at the last National Election.

That's selective analysis

No, it doesn't really work that way, does it! The best you get is the 17 million.

[aright]

19 minutes ago, simoh1490 said:

No, it doesn't really work that way, does it! The best you get is the 17 million.

Well the 17 million is only a start

Of course it works that way. Are you saying the 82 % wanted to stay in the EU but decided, for whatever reason, to vote for a Party whose manifesto said "out". They could have voted for the Lib Dems who promised another referendum if they got into power. The LD vote went down at the last election 

Brexit is the biggest thing for the UK since the second world war. Why do you think people would vote so irresponsibly at the General Election?

[SheungWan]

5 hours ago, Jip99 said:

Once the relationship had broken down I can assure you it was irreversible.

Thankfully Brexit will not be reversed.

Irreversible is a judgment call in both cases, not a legal requirement. Your experience is not a law or to put it another way, you may not go from the particular to the general or claim precedence. Well, you can, but then it becomes about as useful as personal advice from some bar on Soi Buakhaow.

[SheungWan]

Sorry guys but right now its all about Northern Ireland/Ireland.

[simoh1490]

4 hours ago, aright said:

Well the 17 million is only a start

Of course it works that way. Are you saying the 82 % wanted to stay in the EU but decided, for whatever reason, to vote for a Party whose manifesto said "out". They could have voted for the Lib Dems who promised another referendum if they got into power. The LD vote went down at the last election 

Brexit is the biggest thing for the UK since the second world war. Why do you think people would vote so irresponsibly at the General Election?

When the electorate went to the polls to decide a new government, they voted on the basis of which one would be best to lead the country, all factors considered, they didn't elect a new government solely on the basis that the party would lead us out of the EU, but I think you already knew that!

 

17.4 million people voted for Brexit out of an total electorate of circa 46.5 million, you can call that a majority if you wish, I do not.

[simoh1490]

Here's another piece of the puzzle, this is what Brexit has just cost us:

 

"Theresa May has failed to get the EU to agree that Britain will retain a voice at the European court of justice in return for her concession that the Luxembourg court will retain a role in protecting citizens’ rights in the UK after Brexit.

 

Smaller member states wait years for their nationals to take senior positions in the court, and EU diplomats had been appalled at the idea of a non-member state being given special dispensation. Even the suggestion was regarded as an indication of the British government’s belief in its “exceptionalism”. 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/dec/07/brexit-uk-fails-to-retain-voice-in-european-court-of-justice

 

 

[simoh1490]

The head of the CBI says, over 60% of businesses will activate their Brexit contingency plans by Easter, if no deal is reached, that's a hugely scary thought:

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/brexit-cbi-eu-talks-trade-uk-business-contingency-plans-move-offices-city-london-paul-dreschler-a8096636.html