May ready for tough talks over Brexit

[nauseus]

15 hours ago, simoh1490 said:

He's a pretty senior guy, drafted in from Labour and plenty of government experience, plus he's a member of the House of Lords, it's hardly likely he's a drama queen!

Senior! He ditched two chances to stand for parliament by fair election. He accessed his position via the peerage that was due to Blair and now he is paying those dues!  

[talahtnut]

20 hours ago, simoh1490 said:

And I don't care for the man either. But the fact he is a three-term Prime Minister means he must have got many things right.

A brilliant orator,  but gave three terms of false promises and lies and a war.

He tried to emulate his idol Churchill, the great war leader..but ended as Macbeth.

[simoh1490]

13 minutes ago, i claudius said:

What did he get right. As a Labour prime minister and a champion of the working man i find it hard to feel anything but disgust for him .Remember it was him that made sure that we as pensioners did not get our yearly pension rises while living here in Thailand by fighting against the rises right up to the European court of human rights. Scumbag is far to nice a word to describe him

Sent from my [device_name] using http://Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

Once again, I don't want this topic to degenerate into a life and times of Tony Blair thread because that's not what it's all about, but since the question was asked:

 

He created the minimum wage;

Brought over 1 million pensioners out of poverty;

Enshrined the fight against child poverty into law;

Modernised virtually EVERY A & E in the country;

Pushed through the Northern Ireland peace agreement;

and so on.....!

 

It's easy to overlook the good things his government achieved, mostly because of Iraq, we need however to remember that there is another side to the picture - this is a good read on the same subject:  https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/apr/08/tony-blair-labour-pride-war-criminal-iraq

 

Edited January 1, 2018 by simoh1490

[oldhippy]

I note the continued use of the word "scumbag" when certain posters describe a politician (UK ex Prime Minister) that they disagree with.

IMHO this degrades TVForum.

 

 

 

 

[Scott]

Stay on topic and stop with the inflammatory and off-topic remarks.   Calling politicians scumbag may bring you some sort of satisfaction, but it does nothing for the discussion and eventually it simply becomes trolling.  

[simoh1490]

56 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Senior! He ditched two chances to stand for parliament by fair election. He accessed his position via the peerage that was due to Blair and now he is paying those dues!  

You make it sound as though running for elected office is an opportunity not to be missed!

 

People make life and career choices for a variety of reasons, only a very very very tiny fraction/percentage of the population decides to run for elected office, the percentage is so small as to be minuscule.  Yet those people who don't run for elected office, the vast majority of the population, still manage to hold worthwhile jobs and make a contribution, almost certainly Adonis felt he could make a bigger and better contribution by not working in an elected role and who can blame him. Whilst I'm a big support or democracy, Parliament and elected MP's, being an MP must be an absolute nightmare given the vagaries, wants and needs of the electorate in this day and age, I don't blame him (or anyone else) for not going down that route.

 

Edited January 1, 2018 by simoh1490

[oldhippy]

How many generals, CEO's, headmasters, police chiefs, judges, hospital directors, etc are elected?

 

 

 

[Orac]

14 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

How many generals, CEO's, headmasters, police chiefs, judges, hospital directors, etc are elected?

 

 

 

 

It is normally a lifetime of effort needed to reach the top of a career ladder leaving little time for politics however some do manage it. David Davis spent 17 years at Tate and Lyle as a senior executive before coming an MP. Coincidentally the American owned Tate and Lyle also sponsored the Conservative party conference and have had a long, ongoing battle against the EU regarding import tariffs on sugar cane from outside the EU claiming it puts them at a disadvantage against their main rival, British Sugar, who mainly use sugar beet from British farmers.

 

There was also Farage’s post referendum speech to the EU parliament which revealed how it has quite a large selection of MEPs with previous careers.

 

 

[oldhippy]

17 minutes ago, Orac said:

 

It is normally a lifetime of effort needed to reach the top of a career ladder leaving little time for politics however some do manage it. David Davis spent 17 years at Tate and Lyle as a senior executive before coming an MP. Coincidentally the American owned Tate and Lyle also sponsored the Conservative party conference and have had a long, ongoing battle against the EU regarding import tariffs on sugar cane from outside the EU claiming it puts them at a disadvantage against their main rival, British Sugar, who mainly use sugar beet from British farmers.

 

There was also Farage’s post referendum speech to the EU parliament which revealed how it has quite a large selection of MEPs with previous careers.

 

 

I fully agree with your post, but there may be a misunderstanding.

 

When I asked how many generals etc are elected, I was referring to a poster that attacked somebody for not being elected into his job.

I just wanted to point out that most top jobs are not the result of elections.....

I did not mean to say that qualified professional people never run for (political) elections.

Sorry for not being more clear.

 

 

[Orac]

I fully agree with your post, but there may be a misunderstanding.
 
When I asked how many generals etc are elected, I was referring to a poster that attacked somebody for not being elected into his job.
I just wanted to point out that most top jobs are not the result of elections.....
I did not mean to say that qualified professional people never run for (political) elections.
Sorry for not being more clear.
 
 

My mistake. Having reread your comment it is clear what you were saying.


Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[i claudius]

Once again, I don't want this topic to degenerate into a life and times of Tony Blair thread because that's not what it's all about, but since the question was asked:
 
He created the minimum wage;
Brought over 1 million pensioners out of poverty;
Enshrined the fight against child poverty into law;
Modernised virtually EVERY A & E in the country;
Pushed through the Northern Ireland peace agreement;
and so on.....!
 
It's easy to overlook the good things his government achieved, mostly because of Iraq, we need however to remember that there is another side to the picture - this is a good read on the same subject:  https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/apr/08/tony-blair-labour-pride-war-criminal-iraq
 

This is my last comment on Blair but it was John Major and albert Reynolds who worked hard for years to get to the signing .it just happened that Blair came into power and then signed the agreement with Ahern . Right place right time otherwise he had nothing to do with it up till then . End of spin it anyway you like

Sent from my [device_name] using http://Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[dick dasterdly]

3 hours ago, oldhippy said:

I note the continued use of the word "scumbag" when certain posters describe a politician (UK ex Prime Minister) that they disagree with.

IMHO this degrades TVForum.

 

 

 

 

It's pretty much only Blair and Thatcher that receive this deserved hatred.

 

When a Blair 'chum' chimes in with the same opinions, it's reasonable to expect that his opinion will be derided in the same way Blair's opinion is derided.

 

It's irrelevant though, as remainers will agree with his opinions - whilst brexiteers will disagree with his opinions.

Edited January 1, 2018 by dick dasterdly

[dick dasterdly]

2 hours ago, simoh1490 said:

You make it sound as though running for elected office is an opportunity not to be missed!

 

People make life and career choices for a variety of reasons, only a very very very tiny fraction/percentage of the population decides to run for elected office, the percentage is so small as to be minuscule.  Yet those people who don't run for elected office, the vast majority of the population, still manage to hold worthwhile jobs and make a contribution, almost certainly Adonis felt he could make a bigger and better contribution by not working in an elected role and who can blame him. Whilst I'm a big support or democracy, Parliament and elected MP's, being an MP must be an absolute nightmare given the vagaries, wants and needs of the electorate in this day and age, I don't blame him (or anyone else) for not going down that route.

 

In short, those looking for power are the last people that should ever be allowed to gain power.

 

Unfortunately and understandably - those with no interest in power are the least likely to vie for those positions .

 

A truism that is unavoidable.

[simoh1490]

7 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

In short, those looking for power are the last people that should ever be allowed to gain power.

 

Unfortunately and understandably - those with no interest in power are the least likely to vie for those positions .

 

A truism that is unavoidable.

The contrarian view only holds true sometimes, it's certainly not a rule that must be obeyed.

[nauseus]

3 hours ago, simoh1490 said:

You make it sound as though running for elected office is an opportunity not to be missed!

 

People make life and career choices for a variety of reasons, only a very very very tiny fraction/percentage of the population decides to run for elected office, the percentage is so small as to be minuscule.  Yet those people who don't run for elected office, the vast majority of the population, still manage to hold worthwhile jobs and make a contribution, almost certainly Adonis felt he could make a bigger and better contribution by not working in an elected role and who can blame him. Whilst I'm a big support or democracy, Parliament and elected MP's, being an MP must be an absolute nightmare given the vagaries, wants and needs of the electorate in this day and age, I don't blame him (or anyone else) for not going down that route.

 

His choices were directed by probable failure on the democratic route, completely opportunistic and changed like the weather.  

[bert bloggs]

4 hours ago, i claudius said:

This is my last comment on Blair but it was John Major and albert Reynolds who worked hard for years to get to the signing .it just happened that Blair came into power and then signed the agreement with Ahern . Right place right time otherwise he had nothing to do with it up till then . End of spin it anyway you like

Sent from my [device_name] using http://Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

Mind you ,he did sign us up to the European court of human rights , and it was just a coincedence that his wife was a lawyer and made a fortune out of fighting cases in it ,

[simoh1490]

1 hour ago, bert bloggs said:

Mind you ,he did sign us up to the European court of human rights , and it was just a coincedence that his wife was a lawyer and made a fortune out of fighting cases in it ,

I'll bet that's why he signed us up in the first place don't you think, just so she could make a few bob, I mean, he's only worth £60 million, crafty eh. 

[Khun Han]

9 hours ago, simoh1490 said:

You make it sound as though running for elected office is an opportunity not to be missed!

 

People make life and career choices for a variety of reasons, only a very very very tiny fraction/percentage of the population decides to run for elected office, the percentage is so small as to be minuscule.  Yet those people who don't run for elected office, the vast majority of the population, still manage to hold worthwhile jobs and make a contribution, almost certainly Adonis felt he could make a bigger and better contribution by not working in an elected role and who can blame him. Whilst I'm a big support or democracy, Parliament and elected MP's, being an MP must be an absolute nightmare given the vagaries, wants and needs of the electorate in this day and age, I don't blame him (or anyone else) for not going down that route.

 

 

There is nothing wrong with Adonis making a contribution to society through an appointed route. However, rebelling against policy in the way that he has requires some sort of a mandate to be legitimate. He has tried to be clever in shrouding this attack on brexit in supposed whistle-blowing about inappropriate use of public money (genuine whistle-blowing would be an entirely correct thing to do for an appointee). But his senior civil servant (not a politician) has corrected him on this, which outs his political game.

[talahtnut]

17 hours ago, simoh1490 said:

I'll bet that's why he signed us up in the first place don't you think, just so she could make a few bob, I mean, he's only worth £60 million, crafty eh. 

Machiovelli and Churchill, essential study for politicians and leaders.

[ilostmypassword]

2 minutes ago, talahtnut said:

Machiovelli and Churchill, essential study for politicians and leaders.

Machiavelli was himself a failure in his government career and Churchill was terrible as a peacetime politician and leader. What exactly do you think a current politician could learn from Churchill? Find another Hitler?  Blair tried to cast Saddam as just that and look where that got him.

[talahtnut]

15 hours ago, ilostmypassword said:

Machiavelli was himself a failure in his government career and Churchill was terrible as a peacetime politician and leader. What exactly do you think a current politician could learn from Churchill? Find another Hitler?  Blair tried to cast Saddam as just that and look where that got him.

From Churchill....the power of words.

From Machiovelli....the loss of ethics.

Hitler was a superlative speech maker..certainly worth a study.

Hitler studied Islams powerful influence.

 

 

[simoh1490]

1 hour ago, Khun Han said:

 

There is nothing wrong with Adonis making a contribution to society through an appointed route. However, rebelling against policy in the way that he has requires some sort of a mandate to be legitimate. He has tried to be clever in shrouding this attack on brexit in supposed whistle-blowing about inappropriate use of public money (genuine whistle-blowing would be an entirely correct thing to do for an appointee). But his senior civil servant (not a politician) has corrected him on this, which outs his political game.

So only elected officials can be whistleblowers, really!

[Khun Han]

33 minutes ago, simoh1490 said:

1 hour ago, Khun Han said:

 

There is nothing wrong with Adonis making a contribution to society through an appointed route. However, rebelling against policy in the way that he has requires some sort of a mandate to be legitimate. He has tried to be clever in shrouding this attack on brexit in supposed whistle-blowing about inappropriate use of public money (genuine whistle-blowing would be an entirely correct thing to do for an appointee). But his senior civil servant (not a politician) has corrected him on this, which outs his political game.

So only elected officials can be whistleblowers, really!

 

How do you infer that from my post? I stated the exact opposite. The main point I was making was that appointees should not use their appointed position to make grandstanding political gestures.

[Orac]

17 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

How do you infer that from my post? I stated the exact opposite. The main point I was making was that appointees should not use their appointed position to make grandstanding political gestures.

 

Surely he has given up an appointed position rather than use it to make his point, wether you class that as a 'grandstanding political gesture' or not.

[ilostmypassword]

1 hour ago, talahtnut said:

From Churchill....the power of words.

From Machiovelli....the loss of ethics.

Hitler was a superlative speech maker..certainly worth a study.

Hitler studied Islams powerful influence.

 

 

You think politicians don't appreciate the power of words? Really? Maybe if Churchill's genius with them were transferable you might have a point there.

As for your point about Machiavelli, I don't understand. Losing ethics as an obstacle or as an enabler? What don't you think politicians don't understand about ethics?

[talahtnut]

15 hours ago, ilostmypassword said:

You think politicians don't appreciate the power of words? Really? Maybe if Churchill's genius with them were transferable you might have a point there.

As for your point about Machiavelli, I don't understand. Losing ethics as an obstacle or as an enabler? What don't you think politicians don't understand about ethics?

Churchill's technique can be learnt,   [ transfered?]

Politicians understand ethics,  but would you trust one, with your 20฿ note?

[ilostmypassword]

9 minutes ago, talahtnut said:

Churchill's technique can be learnt,   [ transfered?]

Politicians understand ethics,  but would you trust one, with your 20฿ note?

Churchill's technique? What would that be? Where is taught? Why isn't anyone using it?

And what's 'Politicians understand ethics, but would you trust one with a 20฿ note?" got to do with Macchiavelli? 

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, Orac said:

 

Surely he has given up an appointed position rather than use it to make his point, wether you class that as a 'grandstanding political gesture' or not.

He has resigned as a means to highlight himself and far too many simultaneous moans in one go for even one to be credible, even in church! . 

[talahtnut]

15 hours ago, ilostmypassword said:

Churchill's technique? What would that be? Where is taught? Why isn't anyone using it?

And what's 'Politicians understand ethics, but would you trust one with a 20฿ note?" got to do with Macchiavelli? 

You ask too many questions...and my son has just nicked all my peanuts...Please don't ask me why he did that!  Happy new year?

[Khun Han]

1 hour ago, Orac said:

 

Surely he has given up an appointed position rather than use it to make his point, wether you class that as a 'grandstanding political gesture' or not.

 

Using his position to resign from in such a theatrical (and slightly dishonest) way is exactly that.

Edited January 1, 2018 by Khun Han