May ready for tough talks over Brexit

[Khun Han]

9 hours ago, CharlieK said:

 

Again you exaggerate, It is not focusing on his politics, rather that he seemed to be making a political statement when he committed the crime.

If he was insane, he wouldn't know he needed help with mental health issues! He was sane enough to go looking for help and then go looking for a specific person to kill rather than any joe bloggs because he couldn't get help. That is not insanity.

 

If you want to talk about mental health issues and the lack of support for such illnesses then start a new topic.  

 

And, unless you have been living on another planet for the last few months, you will have noticed that there has been a concerted effort to link this mentally ill loner (who subscribed to American KKK-affiliated websites and had a postal subscription to a club of expat South Africans which lapsed over ten years ago, but no connection to any British right wing groups - though I'll bet money that he tried and failed on that front) to brexit leave, and it's <deleted>.

[Khun Han]

5 hours ago, Laughing Gravy said:

People wonder why or how on earth did people vote for brexit.  when you see just what a club it is and corrupt, The sooner the UK is out the better. TM tell the Germans to get stuffed. Poland what a cheek. They hardly contribute. The sooner TM gets out the better.  I know some posters can't access the Times, hence the copy and paste of much of the article.

 

Britain could be forced to pay into the EU for a decade after it leaves, senior European politicians said yesterday.

Wolfgang Schäuble, the German finance minister, backed claims from Poland that the EU would continue to demand billions of pounds in contributions after Brexit to cover its previous pledges. He suggested that Britain could still be making payments ten years after it left the EU because some spending commitments may stretch forward by more than a decade.

“Until the UK’s exit is complete, Britain will certainly have to fulfil its commitments,” he told the Financial Times. “Possibly there will be some commitments that last beyond the exit even, in part, to 2030. Also we cannot grant any generous rebates.”

Under Theresa May’s plans Britain will leave the EU by April 1, 2019. Poland said it expected that British taxpayers would have to continue funding the European budget until at least the end of 2020 — the culmination of the EU’s seven-year financing period that began in 2014.

“I think the EU will stand on the position that in the current financial framework Britain’s budget contributions should be upheld,” Konrad Szymanski, Poland’s deputy foreign minister, said yesterday.

 

If Britain is required to meet its EU budget commitments for 2020 and the last nine months of 2019 after Brexit without its usual rebate the bill will be more than £30 billion. The demand for Britain to continue payments is expected to be a condition for the start of Brexit talks in March.

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/britain-may-have-to-fund-eu-for-a-decade-after-leaving-6x2nmnrlm

 

 

"generous rebates"

 

ROFLMFAO

[AlexRich]

2 hours ago, Laughing Gravy said:

That is the line I hear often the EU wasn't perfect. The fact is the UK government gave them many opportunities to reform and they refused. The EU has put a stranglehold on countries to make leaving difficult. The UK is taking the lead and soon others will follow. As for like minded groups for change. There is no change. just do as the EU commission demand. Putting the argument that staying in is easier and less complex than leaving has no credence. We will see how the EU changes its stance once some of the other populist parties get into power in the other EU countries, which won't be long. What will the doomsday preppers, EU lovers, do then. Commit mass suicide.

 

It's the fact that there is a growing movement of nut jobs ... Farage, Wilders, Le Pen et al ... that would have enabled that change to take place. 

 

But let's be honest, some on here wanted to leave whatever the cost ... Little Englanders reclaiming the Empire for Queen and Country ... for parliamentary democracy and the rule of law ... except, not quite at the moment ... as they don't quite like parliamentary scrutiny of their goals or laws telling them they can't trigger Article 50 without it. 

[AlexRich]

1 hour ago, dick dasterdly said:

I agree insofar as the referendum resulted in some people becoming more obviously racist in general life, as opposed to just telling racist jokes.

 

Unfortunately there was one mentally ill person that took this a step further - and murdered Jo Cox  .

 

Entirely off topic though, and I'm sure there must be a thread on which this murder would be better discussed.

 

Good to see Laughing Gravy agrees with you ... let's all drop the subject and save the man any further embarrassment? 

[AlexRich]

1 hour ago, sandyf said:

It is about time the brexit camp stood up and acknowledged that they have opened Pandora's Box.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-eu-nurses-are-suffering-racist-abuse-and-heading-home-a-parliamentary-inquiry-is-told-a7423611.html

 

What I find both disconcerting and amusing is the Government and Brexit supporting media's failure to acknowledge that their precious Brexit has given a 'free pass' to idiots to abuse foreigners ... ironically people that are there to help them, like nurses, or serve them, like waitresses and shop keepers. All working in this country and paying taxes that support many of the feckless and shameless who voted Brexit but contribute nothing ... the net-takers of society.  

 

[AlexRich]

43 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Haven't read the article, but when it comes to nurses suffering racist abuse - I understand entirely having had the misfortune to visit a neighbour in a 'geriatric ward'.  Staffed pretty much by foreigners who made it very obvious that they didn't care about the elderly on their ward.

 

The 'care' was so bad/non-existent that I told everyone I know - <deleted>, finish me off rather than letting me go to one of those wards .

 

But then again, that's another topic - the way 'nursing' has changed over the last few decades.

 

I had a very similar experience several years ago ... a relative was in his last stages and the painkiller (morphine) injecting machine was not flashing ... he was in agony and explained to me that he had told the nurse several times ... so I found her and she explained that she looked at it and it was working fine ...when I pointed out that the lights on the small injection box where not flashing and asked her to change the batteries we both discovered that the batteries were in fact dead ... and the relative was suffering for hours unnecessarily. 

 

None of the nurses on that ward were foreigners, all locals. And the one mentioned above quite simply could not give a sh$t about her patients.

 

 

 

[RuamRudy]

Do me a favour, and give up on the hyperbole.
 
You may well be right that the EU accounts are squeaky clean and that UKIP accounts aren't.  But at the end of the day (for the working class voter), I think it boiled down to  - is the EU working for you?
 
And, as it turned out, many thought it wasn't (and neither was their government) and so voted to reject their politicians/media recommendations/advice - and voted leave.
 
Edit - Personally, I've never understood why it took the working class to take so long to realise that they no longer had a party working for 'them'.

So EU corruption is so bad that ukip corruption should be accepted as a necessary evil?

I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I am interested in how little is being said about the dishonesty of Farage?

[dick dasterdly]

13 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

So EU corruption is so bad that ukip corruption should be accepted as a necessary evil?

I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I am interested in how little is being said about the dishonesty of Farage?

 

 

1 hour ago, dick dasterdly said:

Do me a favour, and give up on the hyperbole.

 

You may well be right that the EU accounts are squeaky clean and that UKIP accounts aren't.  But at the end of the day (for the working class voter), I think it boiled down to  - is the EU working for you?

 

And, as it turned out, many thought it wasn't (and neither was their government) and so voted to reject their politicians/media recommendations/advice - and voted leave.

 

Edit - Personally, I've never understood why it took the working class to take so long to realise that they no longer had a party working for 'them'.

 

1 hour ago, AlexRich said:

 

Good to see Laughing Gravy agrees with you ... let's all drop the subject and save the man any further embarrassment? 

Good to see that you base your replies on another poster being 'unreliable'  - when you were one of the posters quoting the Deloittes memo presented to the cabinet as fact...

[dick dasterdly]

1 hour ago, AlexRich said:

 

What I find both disconcerting and amusing is the Government and Brexit supporting media's failure to acknowledge that their precious Brexit has given a 'free pass' to idiots to abuse foreigners ... ironically people that are there to help them, like nurses, or serve them, like waitresses and shop keepers. All working in this country and paying taxes that support many of the feckless and shameless who voted Brexit but contribute nothing ... the net-takers of society.  

 

I'm sure that this has been pointed out before.

 

Only the wealthy and those without children pay for those with children.

[CharlieK]

1 hour ago, Khun Han said:

 

And, unless you have been living on another planet for the last few months, you will have noticed that there has been a concerted effort to link this mentally ill loner (who subscribed to American KKK-affiliated websites and had a postal subscription to a club of expat South Africans which lapsed over ten years ago, but no connection to any British right wing groups - though I'll bet money that he tried and failed on that front) to brexit leave, and it's <deleted>.

 

sad you are not able to see the reality of the crime. Mair's words while killing Jo Cox make it obvious this was a political killing. I totally reject that it is being used as a way to stop brexit as you would have people believe.

 

  

 

Edited November 18, 2016 by CharlieK

[dick dasterdly]

57 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

 

I had a very similar experience several years ago ... a relative was in his last stages and the painkiller (morphine) injecting machine was not flashing ... he was in agony and explained to me that he had told the nurse several times ... so I found her and she explained that she looked at it and it was working fine ...when I pointed out that the lights on the small injection box where not flashing and asked her to change the batteries we both discovered that the batteries were in fact dead ... and the relative was suffering for hours unnecessarily. 

 

None of the nurses on that ward were foreigners, all locals. And the one mentioned above quite simply could not give a sh$t about her patients.

 

 

 

More worryingly, those in the 'Geriatric Ward' were ignored when I was unfortunate enough to visit someone in their 'care'.....

 

"Nursing' has changed into a career path, rather than an vocation .

 

Which sums up politicians actions for a long time now.  Money is important, not the ordinary person.

[AlexRich]

42 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

 

 

Good to see that you base your replies on another poster being 'unreliable'  - when you were one of the posters quoting the Deloittes memo presented to the cabinet as fact...

 

I posted a news report that referred to the Deloitte's memo as coming from the Cabinet, which subsequently turned out not to be correct. Not something that I was aware of at the time. It was not prepared for Cabinet, but is that the same as saying that the content is untrue? I made no issue about it being an internal Cabinet document (who cares?) ... the issue raised was that the government is more interested in its own survival than British business and that the government has no strategy in place for Brexit. Deloitte's are well integrated into Government and big business ... the report's contents are credible. 

 

 

[Khun Han]

1 hour ago, CharlieK said:

 

sad you are not able to see the reality of the crime. Mair's words while killing Jo Cox make it obvious this was a political killing. I totally reject that it is being used as a way to stop brexit as you would have people believe.

 

  

 

 

On and on you go with this nonsense.

 

I'll try to put it more simply for you. If a guy murders his wife because she was having an affair with the neighbour, do we blame his wife for her death because she was having an affair? No, we bloody well don't. Even though the direct cause of him killing his wife was the affair, we blame the guy for becoming unhinged.

 

Yet here we have remain and it's supporters all over the political aspect of this murder like a rash, wanting to sweep Mair's mental health issues under the carpet, and desperate to find some sort of connection between Mair and British political activists, even though the best they can come up with is a postal subscription to a group of South African expats which lapsed over ten years ago! Yes, the guy dressed his personal issues with political extremism, that's obvious. But the attempt to blame a mainstream political movement is disgusting, and quite cynical.The fact that you've been taken in by remain's games shows that their tactics are working.

[AlexRich]

The question is would Jo Cox be alive today if the Referendum had never taken place?

 

Now, if your answer is no, then you are effectively suggesting that Thomas Mair would have hunted her down and killed her anyway. The fact that he did so during a period when the debate on immigration was intense (Farage poster of immigrants) is just a coincidence?

 

"Britain First" ... no connection whatsoever to the referendum?

 

KH is up there with holocaust deniers.

 

[7by7]

22 hours ago, AlexRich said:

 

Deloitte work with government and they also work with major business ... they are not a random guy in the street with an opinion ... they are insiders in this process and a great deal closer to the action than anyone on here.

 Indeed, and I said as much.

 

But as they themselves admit, this memo was prepared without any data or input from any government source; none at all, zero, nada, zilch.

 

It was not, as originally claimed, prepared for the Cabinet Office.

 

So whilst it may contain some elements of fact, it is not in anyway a completely accurate representation of the views of the government; merely, as I said, an educated guess.

 

22 hours ago, AlexRich said:

May's refusal to discuss what the Government are aiming at is not some negotiation tactic, it is merely a 'cover story' to hide the fact that they do not have a clear plan in place. Why? Because the complexity of the task at hand is enormous and they quite simply have not got their collective heads round it nor have they currently the manpower in place to do so. 

 

And that is why they are desperate to avoid parliamentary scrutiny ... it would expose their "gross incompetence". 

 

 

 

You obviously consider revealing your negotiating strategy and what concessions you are prepared to make before the negotiations have even begun to be a sensible way of doing business. In which case anyone you do business with must rub their hands with glee every time you approach them.

 

Yes, the task is complex, but the government's wish to avoid Parliamentary scrutiny at this stage has more to do with their desire to keep their cards close to their chest so they can obtain the best possible deal for the UK from the potentially disastrous mess the electorate have chosen to get us into.

 

To repeat what the Prime Minister said in Wednesday's PMQs 'But Mrs May said setting out every detail of the UK's negotiating strategy in advance to the other 27 EU member states would be the "best possible way of ensuring we got the worst result for this country", adding: "That's why we won't do it."'

Edited November 18, 2016 by 7by7

[7by7]

5 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

I agree insofar as the referendum resulted in some people becoming more obviously racist in general life, as opposed to just telling racist jokes.

 

Unfortunately there was one mentally ill person that took this a step further - and murdered Jo Cox  .

 

Entirely off topic though, and I'm sure there must be a thread on which this murder would be better discussed.

 

There is: UK: Labour MP Jo Cox 'murdered for political cause'

 

Dear Mods, surely discussion of Mair's trial and possible motives are best suited in that topic rather than this one?

[AlexRich]

1 hour ago, 7by7 said:

 Indeed, and I said as much.

 

But as they themselves admit, this memo was prepared without any data or input from any government source; none at all, zero, nada, zilch.

 

It was not, as originally claimed, prepared for the Cabinet Office.

 

So whilst it may contain some elements of fact, it is not in anyway a completely accurate representation of the views of the government; merely, as I said, an educated guess.

 

 

You obviously consider revealing your negotiating strategy and what concessions you are prepared to make before the negotiations have even begun to be a sensible way of doing business. In which case anyone you do business with must rub their hands with glee every time you approach them.

 

Yes, the task is complex, but the government's wish to avoid Parliamentary scrutiny at this stage has more to do with their desire to keep their cards close to their chest so they can obtain the best possible deal for the UK from the potentially disastrous mess the electorate have chosen to get us into.

 

To repeat what the Prime Minister said in Wednesday's PMQs 'But Mrs May said setting out every detail of the UK's negotiating strategy in advance to the other 27 EU member states would be the "best possible way of ensuring we got the worst result for this country", adding: "That's why we won't do it."'

 

If my memory serves me right the memo was commenting on the business world's realisation that the government are concerned only about their own political futures and had no strategy in place for Brexit? It never claimed to be a statement from Government ... they are not likely to admit that.

 

As for negotiating, I don't think parliament are looking for what concessions they are planning to make ... merely what is their aim with these negotiations ... because it pretty much looks like they are going for the most extreme version of Brexit, and they want to force that through without any scrutiny of what the possible implications are. So let's hope the Supreme Court forces their hand. 

[Khun Han]

2 hours ago, 7by7 said:

 

There is: UK: Labour MP Jo Cox 'murdered for political cause'

 

Dear Mods, surely discussion of Mair's trial and possible motives are best suited in that topic rather than this one?

 

I agree. But they're discussing Scottish independence over there!?!

[Scott]

Please stay on topic.   As noted above, this one is about Brexit.  

[Orac]

 
On and on you go with this nonsense.
 
I'll try to put it more simply for you. If a guy murders his wife because she was having an affair with the neighbour, do we blame his wife for her death because she was having an affair? No, we bloody well don't. Even though the direct cause of him killing his wife was the affair, we blame the guy for becoming unhinged.
 
Yet here we have remain and it's supporters all over the political aspect of this murder like a rash, wanting to sweep Mair's mental health issues under the carpet, and desperate to find some sort of connection between Mair and British political activists, even though the best they can come up with is a postal subscription to a group of South African expats which lapsed over ten years ago! Yes, the guy dressed his personal issues with political extremism, that's obvious. But the attempt to blame a mainstream political movement is disgusting, and quite cynical.The fact that you've been taken in by remain's games shows that their tactics are working.

But he didn't murder his wife, abhorrent that it would have been should he have done that. He brutally slayed an MP who was elected to represent the people of her constituency and that you continually want to ignore the relevance of that speaks volumes.

[Khun Han]

18 minutes ago, Orac said:

 

But he didn't murder his wife, abhorrent that it would have been should he have done that. He brutally slayed an MP who was elected to represent the people of her constituency and that you continually want to ignore the relevance of that speaks volumes.

 

 

It doesn't speak anything. And you have missed the point I was making by a country mile. In the example I gave, nobody would blame the 'trigger' because it would be passing the responsibility for the murder from the killer onto the victim. But in Mair's case, people are trying to blame the 'trigger', and it's nonsense. Just as the vast majority of victims of an adulterous spouse don't murder the adulterers, the vast majority of political activists don't murder their opponents. It takes a breakdown of mental health to commit both these types of murder. And that is the only important, absolute key factor.

 

That remain and it's supporters are trying to turn the rational of this appalling crime upside down to cynically further their cause does indeed speak volumes. And it's disgusting. But, I expect they don't care, particularly as it's gained some traction.

 

As requested by Scott, this discussion should now be continued in the relevant thread.

[Laughing Gravy]

15 hours ago, AlexRich said:

 

Good to see Laughing Gravy agrees with you ... let's all drop the subject and save the man any further embarrassment? 

I think you will find that a few posters have also mentioned that the man was mentally ill. If you go back and read it you will see. It would seem that you won't admit the fact even when every newspaper from all sides of the political spectrum also state it.  The only embarrassment is your own denial.

[sandyf]

15 hours ago, AlexRich said:

 

I posted a news report that referred to the Deloitte's memo as coming from the Cabinet, which subsequently turned out not to be correct. Not something that I was aware of at the time. It was not prepared for Cabinet, but is that the same as saying that the content is untrue? I made no issue about it being an internal Cabinet document (who cares?) ... the issue raised was that the government is more interested in its own survival than British business and that the government has no strategy in place for Brexit. Deloitte's are well integrated into Government and big business ... the report's contents are credible. 

 

 

Nobody is interested in the content - there is too much support.

[sandyf]

Tough talks alright. 

 

The demand for Britain to continue payments is expected to be a condition for the start of Brexit talks, next spring on the government's timetable.

Mr Schäuble also warned that Britain must follow international rules on investment incentives, in the wake of the post-Brexit commitments given by Downing Street to Nissan.

“These rules apply to all, whether EU members or not," he told the Financial Times.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-eu-uk-theresa-may-payments-decades-germany-wolfgang-sch-uble-a7424441.html

[sandyf]

12 hours ago, AlexRich said:

 

If my memory serves me right the memo was commenting on the business world's realisation that the government are concerned only about their own political futures and had no strategy in place for Brexit? It never claimed to be a statement from Government ... they are not likely to admit that.

 

As for negotiating, I don't think parliament are looking for what concessions they are planning to make ... merely what is their aim with these negotiations ... because it pretty much looks like they are going for the most extreme version of Brexit, and they want to force that through without any scrutiny of what the possible implications are. So let's hope the Supreme Court forces their hand. 

Quite. There is a huge difference between.

Leave the EU, and remain with the single market/customs union.  and

Leave the EU, and also separate from the single market/customs union.

 

A percentage of the people voted to leave and trusted the government to arrange the 'best' outcome. Obviously that trust was misplaced as the government has now damaged the UK beyond repair.

It is really now a question of damage limitation.

 

 

Edited November 19, 2016 by sandyf

[SgtRock]

5 hours ago, sandyf said:

Tough talks alright. 

 

The demand for Britain to continue payments is expected to be a condition for the start of Brexit talks, next spring on the government's timetable.

Mr Schäuble also warned that Britain must follow international rules on investment incentives, in the wake of the post-Brexit commitments given by Downing Street to Nissan.

“These rules apply to all, whether EU members or not," he told the Financial Times.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-eu-uk-theresa-may-payments-decades-germany-wolfgang-sch-uble-a7424441.html

 

Sandy,

 

Schauble is the German Finance Minister. He is not the EU Finance Minister. He can therefore rattle his gums and say pretty much what he likes. Unless of course, you are accepting that it is indeed Germany who run the EU. If that is the case then we can dispense with the 7 EU institutions  as they are merely a money sucking parasite, and of little use.

 

It may have escaped your attention, but there was a mid-term EU financial pow-wow held on Tuesday.

 

Is it not feasible that old Schauble was tipped the wink at this pow-wow as to how much Germany's EU contribution is going to rise post Brexit and he knows that he has absolutely no chance of flogging an additional flea-ridden horse to the German electorate.

 

Not withstanding, that there is still a high chance that this time next year he will not be in a job.

 

There is not a lot of good news coming out of Germany at the moment. The latest EU growth of 0.3% is being widely reported as coming from Italy of all places. Not the economic powerhouse of Germany as one would  imagine.

 

Anyone can fashion an argument from a single article. Which might just be the reason that Bloomberg is no longer being quoted on this thread. They are now daily, producing articles that are painting the EU, but more specifically that euro / EZ in very negative terms.

 

There is a 2 year withdrawal period from the EU once A50 is invoked. It would be prudent to wait and see what occurs over the course of 2017 before worrying about Brexit negotiations. It is not beyond the realms of possibility that there will be very little to actually negotiate.

[SgtRock]

Keep your eyes on this. It will most certainly have a major impact on Brexit negotations.

 

Quote

France set to vote for rightwing presidential candidate to face Le Pen

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/nov/18/france-votes-rightwing-presidential-candidate-marine-le-pen

 

Every political commentator, analyst and journalist have Le Pen in the final runoff.

 

Quote

The three leading contenders in the open primary race to choose the right’s candidate on Sunday are all establishment figures – two former prime ministers, Alain Juppé and François Fillon, and the former president Nicolas Sarkozy.

 

Juppe: A convicted criminal.

 

Sarkozy: Who will most likely get dragged into the Lagarde fraud trial.

 

Fillon: A close friend and ally of Sarkozy.

 

Emmanuel Macron is running as running as an independent and is widely tipped to split the vote of whoever runs from the above.

 

Interesting times.

 

Before that, on the 04 Dec there is the Austrian Presidential election. An election that the result has already been overturned, the 2nd election was cancelled due to faulty glue.

 

And given the fact that Martin Schultz and Juncker has been issuing all sorts of nonsense should Hofer win, those interesting times might be coming quicker than we think

 

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?pubRef=-//EP//TEXT+WQ+E-2016-005774+0+DOC+XML+V0//EN&language=en

 

http://newobserveronline.com/eu-warns-hofer-victory/

 

 

 

 

[SaintLouisBlues]

I'd have thought May can't believe her luck. Not only are the Europhiles in Europe going to be completely distracted by the elections a number of countries will be holding over the next couple of years - France and Germany being just two of them - Greece still represents an economic problem and Italy is a basket case, but also they're all going to have to come to terms with the totally unexpected phenomenon of President Trump.

[SgtRock]

Whilst the Political landscape will play out in full view of the public, it is only one part of the crisis that is engulfing the EU.

 

The euro / EZ is the other part. Seems this guy is saying what many are saying:

 

Quote

“Europe is screwed. You guys are still screwed,” says Eisman. “In the Italian system, the banks say they are worth 45-50 cents in the dollar. But the bid price is 20 cents. If they were to mark them down, they would be insolvent.”

 

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2016/nov/19/big-short-financial-crash-steve-eisman-italy-banks-risk

 

Certainly worth a read and one can only speculate why a pro-EU medium like the Guardian published it.

 

* Real value of assets. I recall mentioning that before * 

Edited November 19, 2016 by SgtRock

[stevenl]

37 minutes ago, SgtRock said:

Whilst the Political landscape will play out in full view of the public, it is only one part of the crisis that is engulfing the EU.

 

The euro / EZ is the other part. Seems this guy is saying what many are saying:

 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2016/nov/19/big-short-financial-crash-steve-eisman-italy-banks-risk

 

Certainly worth a read and one can only speculate why a pro-EU medium like the Guardian published it.

 

* Real value of assets. I recall mentioning that before * 

That quote is about a part of their portfolio, not the whole banks as could be understood from your post.