May ready for tough talks over Brexit

[dick dasterdly]

2 hours ago, jpinx said:

Brexit is not about left or right politics, nor is it about skin colour,  It's about British or European, because the Europe that has eventuated excludes national interests in deference to European Federalism.    Can we stay on topic please?  

 

1 hour ago, Johnyo said:

 

So Brexit wasn't about a scared Tory party thinking they were going to lose an election because UKIP was going to steal enough votes so that Labour would be elected so they promised a referendum so those UKIP voters would be persuaded to vote Tory? I'm glad it wasn't about politics then.


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You're confusing the difference between 1) why the referendum was called and 2) the reasons behind the result.

 

I don't entirely agree with jpinx's post - but changing the point to spin it in an entirely different direction,  is always annoying.

[AlexRich]

1 hour ago, Johnyo said:

All motives are political. You don't really believe any politician actually cares about anything else but power? If the economy was to tank in the next two years and public opinion was to turn against Brexit you don't think the Torys would do a u-turn just to remain in power?

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They're doing it already ... 'hard' Brexit words at the party conference being watered down as the reality of the task becomes clearer ... and as the 48% make their voices heard in places like Richmond. We don't know exactly what Nissan were offered ... but it certainly wasn't 'hard' brexit or pack your bags!

[AlexRich]

54 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

 

You're confusing the difference between 1) why the referendum was called and 2) the reasons behind the result.

 

I don't entirely agree with jpinx's post - but changing the point to spin it in an entirely different direction,  is always annoying.

 

Well, he's right about 1) and 2) was down to immigration ... without that issue no other issue was strong enough in the minds of people to get the 'exit' vote over the line.

[dick dasterdly]

1 hour ago, Johnyo said:

All motives are political. You don't really believe any politician actually cares about anything else but power? If the economy was to tank in the next two years and public opinion was to turn against Brexit you don't think the Torys would do a u-turn just to remain in power?

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect

 

2 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

 

They're doing it already ... 'hard' Brexit words at the party conference being watered down as the reality of the task becomes clearer ... and as the 48% make their voices heard in places like Richmond. We don't know exactly what Nissan were offered ... but it certainly wasn't 'hard' brexit or pack your bags!

I think most Tory MPs (along with Labour and Lib Dem MPs) supported remain in the referendum?

 

No suprise then that they will do their best to water it down.

[dick dasterdly]

5 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

 

They're doing it already ... 'hard' Brexit words at the party conference being watered down as the reality of the task becomes clearer ... and as the 48% make their voices heard in places like Richmond. We don't know exactly what Nissan were offered ... but it certainly wasn't 'hard' brexit or pack your bags!

Sorry to break this up into two replies - but the Richmond reference is ridiculous.

 

An area that strongly voted for remain in the referendum, voted for a remain politician in the by-election.....  No suprise there.

[jpinx]

 

It's always interesting to look at the inspiration for the referendum, but whatever that might have been the result stands today and we need to move forward.   Now is the time to decide whether UK wants to be federalised into the EU, or stand as an independent partner of the EFTA.  The EU beaurocrats are desperate to create a federal europe, and it looks like the UK rejects that idea.  Or am I making this too simple ?  :)

Edited December 6, 2016 by jpinx

[dick dasterdly]

6 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

 

Well, he's right about 1) and 2) was down to immigration ... without that issue no other issue was strong enough in the minds of people to get the 'exit' vote over the line.

Its always good to know that there is a poster on the forum with complete insight into why people voted the way they did.....

[SaintLouisBlues]

5 minutes ago, jpinx said:

It's always interesting to look at the inspiration for the referendum, but whatever that might have been the result stand today and we need to move forward.   Now is the time to decide whether UK wants to be federalised into the EU, or stand as an independent partner of the EFTA.  The EU beaurocrats are desperate to create a federal europe, and it looks like the UK rejects that idea.  Or am I making this too simple ?  :)

I for one am gob-smacked that Mother Theresa hasn't hired you as a special adviser

[jpinx]

1 minute ago, SaintLouisBlues said:

I for one am gob-smacked that Mother Theresa hasn't hired you as a special adviser

How do you know she hasn't ? 

[SaintLouisBlues]

5 minutes ago, jpinx said:

How do you know she hasn't ? 

1. You wouldn't have the time to be posting here
2. You'd be bound by the conditions of your employment not to make public pronouncements
3. There's probably something about the Official Secrets Act too but that's enough to be going on with

[SheungWan]

18 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

 

They're doing it already ... 'hard' Brexit words at the party conference being watered down as the reality of the task becomes clearer ... and as the 48% make their voices heard in places like Richmond. We don't know exactly what Nissan were offered ... but it certainly wasn't 'hard' brexit or pack your bags!

 

Apropos Nissan, ...'the British government has rejected a Freedom Of Information request to release a letter from Greg Clark the business secretary that encouraged the carmaker Nissan to invest in its factory in Sunderland despite the uncertainty over Brexit'. (FT 2/12)

[AlexRich]

15 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

 

I think most Tory MPs (along with Labour and Lib Dem MPs) supported remain in the referendum?

 

No suprise then that they will do their best to water it down.

 

You need to ask the question why would the Tory MPs vote remain? It's not as if they are happy with the immigration issue. On balance I guess they thought it was better to argue within the club than leave it ... and with the growing disenchantment that may well have been a successful policy. Brexit throws the economic baby out with the bathwater.

[jpinx]

23 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

 

They're doing it already ... 'hard' Brexit words at the party conference being watered down as the reality of the task becomes clearer ... and as the 48% make their voices heard in places like Richmond. We don't know exactly what Nissan were offered ... but it certainly wasn't 'hard' brexit or pack your bags!

I don't know for sure, but Ireland would have happily given Nissan a huge tax break, so nothing new here .   

 

  I still support the exit from the EU but with seriously revised terms of membership of the EFTA -- which is I what I voted for all those years ago when it was called the Common Market.

[AlexRich]

1 minute ago, SheungWan said:

 

Apropos Nissan, ...'the British government has rejected a Freedom Of Information request to release a letter from Greg Clark the business secretary that encouraged the carmaker Nissan to invest in its factory in Sunderland despite the uncertainty over Brexit'. (FT 2/12)

 

Exactly. It looks like that "imaginary" £350 m per week will be used to bribe companies to stay in the UK. Like an sexpat-bar girl relationship.

[jpinx]

1 minute ago, AlexRich said:

 

You need to ask the question why would the Tory MPs vote remain? It's not as if they are happy with the immigration issue. On balance I guess they thought it was better to argue within the club than leave it ... and with the growing disenchantment that may well have been a successful policy. Brexit throws the economic baby out with the bathwater.

That is very true, and I supported the "Remain and Rebuild" idea for a long time, but when a Vote was required it was time to look at the history of the attempts to renegotiate the terms and also to look at the declarations of intent by Junkers, Schultz and Tusk.  Renegotiating has been stone-walled for years, and the statements coming out of Brussels offered no olive leaf - let alone a branch.    For me - that was the deciding factor -- we have been trying for years to sort out the EU and it still lurches from one massive deficit to another and shows absolutely no signs of reforming itself.  Time to get off the bus -- even if it is "in motion" .....

[Grouse]

https://piie.com/system/files/documents/baldwin20161115ppt.pdf

 

Morning all! Carney and Baldwin on Radio 4 Today.

 

Very interesting view of the causes of middle class dissatisfaction arising from globalisation and the resultant rebellions. 

 

The attached and Baldwin's book go a long way to explain current angst and why the current plans of Trump et al is the wrong solution. OK, it's a bit heavy but worth perseverance!

[SheungWan]

1 hour ago, AlexRich said:

 

Exactly. It looks like that "imaginary" £350 m per week will be used to bribe companies to stay in the UK. Like an sexpat-bar girl relationship.

 

The Department for Business Energy and Industrial Strategy (BEIS) said it would consider if there was a 'public interest' in making the letter public but said it rejected the request because the details are 'commercially sensitive'. The letter, which the government has repeatedly refused to publish (not to mention forum Brexiteers denying its existence) is believed to contain assurances that Nissan will be shielded from the impact of Brexit.

[dick dasterdly]

2 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

 

I think most Tory MPs (along with Labour and Lib Dem MPs) supported remain in the referendum?

 

No suprise then that they will do their best to water it down.

 

2 hours ago, AlexRich said:

 

You need to ask the question why would the Tory MPs vote remain? It's not as if they are happy with the immigration issue. On balance I guess they thought it was better to argue within the club than leave it ... and with the growing disenchantment that may well have been a successful policy. Brexit throws the economic baby out with the bathwater.

Not hard to imagine why - its in their own political and financial interest!

[7by7]

10 hours ago, Laughing Gravy said:

That is a ridiculous statement. As you have agreed it is not a working class area my whole point.

Nothing to admit. As the stats have been posted here, you rarely find any London boroughs with such a high percentage of White British and other white people. Just a few non whites in Richmond which is my whole point.

 

If you want to know the demographics of other London boroughs, look them up. You will find that, as I said, the white British percentage in Richmond is higher than some, lower than others.

 

But you made a definite statement that there are 'no immigrants in Richmond.' Not 'no non white immigrants' but no immigrants at all.

 

That statement is false; whether one counts all immigrants or, as you are now trying to do, only the non white ones.

 

Man up and admit you were wrong.

[AlexRich]

1 hour ago, dick dasterdly said:

 

Not hard to imagine why - its in their own political and financial interest!

 

I'm not sure that it is?

[Grouse]

9 hours ago, jpinx said:

Richmond was just a side-show, and not really an indicator of anything, other than the fact that the party political system really does not work.  Where was "Richmond issue"  of the extra runway at heathrow? 

 

Yes- EU is bigger but not better.  The concept of the Common Market has been lost and the beaurocrats are hell-bent of federalising Europe.

 

 

Its called Richmond not Poorland for a reason ?

[Grouse]

3 hours ago, Grouse said:

https://piie.com/system/files/documents/baldwin20161115ppt.pdf

 

Morning all! Carney and Baldwin on Radio 4 Today.

 

Very interesting view of the causes of middle class dissatisfaction arising from globalisation and the resultant rebellions. 

 

The attached and Baldwin's book go a long way to explain current angst and why the current plans of Trump et al is the wrong solution. OK, it's a bit heavy but worth perseverance!

 

May I humbly suggest that you all take a look at this?

 

It really clarifies the situation nicely. You've heard me banging on about inequality; this explains why.

 

OK, Brexiteers hang their hat on multiple reasons for voting leave. THIS is the real explanation.

 

Ignore if you wish .....

[Grouse]

And this

 

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/uk-suffers-its-first-lost-decade-in-150-years-22682xgss

 

These are the real reasons

 

Brexiteers can put ANY kind of icing on it but its the real reason why so many are rebellious and looking for change.

 

I mean, ask yourself, if you were running around in his and hers BMWs and living in a fine 4 bedroom villa would you REALLY be complaining about sovereignty and Rumanian vegetables pickers. Of course not! Its all a reaction to the economic impact of globalisation, poor efficiency, automation and crap government resulting in MASSIVE INEQUALITY.....

[Srikcir]

7 hours ago, Grouse said:

economic impact of globalisation, poor efficiency, automation and crap government resulting in MASSIVE INEQUALITY

From your link:

"The governor [Bank of England Mark Carney] said there was no evidence that the poor had suffered disproportionately since rates were cut to 0.5 per cent in 2009, citing analysis that the “poorest 20 per cent of households have actually seen the largest proportional increases in their net wealth since 2006”.

 

Carney denies MASSIVE INEQUALITY at least from a monetary policy perspective. 

 

He agrees there is inequality but it's a failure by global stateless businesses, “Redistribution and fairness also means turning back the tide of stateless corporations .... Companies must be rooted and pay tax somewhere.” That's not a new phenomenon but tax havens like Ireland and special tax breaks by governments to keep or attract businesses like Nissan make it difficult to address with permanent solutions.

[jpinx]

In France - where the full-face veil has been banned in all public places since 2010 - the far-right National Front (FN) is credited with 30% support ahead of a presidential poll.

In the Netherlands, where elections are due in March, opinion polls suggest the right-wing populist Freedom Party (PVV) is neck and neck with the governing liberal VVD.

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-38226081

[Grouse]

12 hours ago, Srikcir said:

From your link:

"The governor [Bank of England Mark Carney] said there was no evidence that the poor had suffered disproportionately since rates were cut to 0.5 per cent in 2009, citing analysis that the “poorest 20 per cent of households have actually seen the largest proportional increases in their net wealth since 2006”.

 

Carney denies MASSIVE INEQUALITY at least from a monetary policy perspective. 

 

He agrees there is inequality but it's a failure by global stateless businesses, “Redistribution and fairness also means turning back the tide of stateless corporations .... Companies must be rooted and pay tax somewhere.” That's not a new phenomenon but tax havens like Ireland and special tax breaks by governments to keep or attract businesses like Nissan make it difficult to address with permanent solutions.

 

At l least you read it! However, not the key conclusions I drew. We will always have the poor but blue colour workers at the big problem

[7by7]

On ‎06‎/‎12‎/‎2016 at 11:59 AM, 7by7 said:

(Laughing Gravy) Man up and admit you were wrong.

 

So will you now admit you were wrong?

[jpinx]

13 hours ago, Srikcir said:

From your link:

"The governor [Bank of England Mark Carney] said there was no evidence that the poor had suffered disproportionately since rates were cut to 0.5 per cent in 2009, citing analysis that the “poorest 20 per cent of households have actually seen the largest proportional increases in their net wealth since 2006”.

 

Carney denies MASSIVE INEQUALITY at least from a monetary policy perspective. 

 

He agrees there is inequality but it's a failure by global stateless businesses, “Redistribution and fairness also means turning back the tide of stateless corporations .... Companies must be rooted and pay tax somewhere.” That's not a new phenomenon but tax havens like Ireland and special tax breaks by governments to keep or attract businesses like Nissan make it difficult to address with permanent solutions.

Against the background of rate-fixing and whatever else was going on is it any wonder people are pissed off with the EU and it's banking.  And where did the the billions of fines go?  Were they applied to the EU debt mountain? 

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-38235845

 

[jpinx]

1 hour ago, Grouse said:

 

At l least you read it! However, not the key conclusions I drew. We will always have the poor but blue colour workers at the big problem

"blue colour workers" ????  you need to ease up on the Sangria over there.

[AlexRich]

Bad news for the EU haters:

 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-12-07/people-in-the-euro-area-are-getting-back-to-work-fast

 

Strange result from an economic area that is supposed to be in "meltdown"?