Making a garden and growing many fruit trees

[westbounder]

Hi,

I have 250 wah of land and the existing soil is red and rock hard (not good for growing anything but weeds).

I want to grow all kinds of vegetables and all kinds of fruit trees from banana, coconut, mango, lemon et...

Can I bring in good black soil to put over my bad soil?
and how much minimum deep should the good black soil be?

 

Thank You

[IsaanAussie]

I would suggest you do a simple soil test to get the basic clay, sand and silt ratios. Look it up on the net. Simply mix a sample in water and wait for it to settle out. Then get a good soil test done and recommendations for an amendment program to bring the soil up to what is needed to grow your veggies etc... 

It could well be your soil merely needs more organic matter to loosen it up. I personally not believe the answer is in importing soil as you mention. Too expensive and you will only get a thin layer (with pits for trees) covering a compacted layer, and then only if the new stuff is any better

[tonray]

Bringing in soil is a great bet for vegetable gardening but as first poster states, not great idea for trees. There is an option, I have seen an operation in NJ in the states where fruit trees are actually grown in a raised bed system...long troughs about a meter high and wide filled with soil...to compensate for the bad local conditions. But this is done only on a smaller scale as it requires the building of the beds and filling with soil. 

 

You could use the topsoil addition for a great vegetable garden and maybe set up a small test bed for fruit trees and see how it goes.

[khwaibah]

Work with what you have and listen to the locals. Most soil is rubish and the Thais know this. They will dig a hole or use a concert ring fill it with rice hulks, straw and good old cow shyt water the heck out of it and let it turn to compost then they plant. The photo below is of Thai limes, this was taken about 3 years back and they are producing like crazey. AND may I add that we or shall I say the wife has about 15 Spanish Lemon trees producing fantastic fruit. All of these were planted in the method I describe above.

 

 

 

 

 

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[drtreelove]

Westbounder, your question is pertinent for many people starting gardens in Thailand or anywhere.  I've been through it with three different properties in Thailand, from a residential yard smaller than yours, to a small farm of 10 rai. 

 

250 wah is 1000 sq meters, 2/3 rai isn't it?  Not so huge an area that an investment could not be considered for importing soil and/or the organic matter to get a good start.  It depends on your budget and determination to seek out materials for the project, how much work you will do yourself or will you have to pay for labor, trucking and tractor services. 

 

The building of soil organic matter (and therefore enhancing soil biological activity), like IssanAussie points out, should be a primary focus for getting started and also needs to be an ongoing management effort. Soil testing and prescription mineral and biological amendments that he mentions is also advisable.  Pits, concrete rings or raised beds with organic matter and manure and no mineral soil may show good results in the short term while young plants are vigorous,  but there can be some negatives with this approach.  Without some of the important soil minerals, there could be a decline in health and lack of resistance to pest and disease issues develop. 

 

Attached is an article that I wrote a few years ago for a Chiang Mai Expats Garden Club. I had a similar situation in 2003 and searched out affordable sources in Chiang Mai for organic matter.  Rice hulls, rice straw, coconut husk grindings, horse and donkey manure with straw bedding mixed in (race track and army pack squadron sources) were some of the available materials that I found. I had a pickup for hauling sacks and bulk material and I did a lot of the labor myself.  Raw material I composted before incorporating it into the soil, or worked it in and then gave it time to decompose before planting.

 

Green manure (seeding and growing a legume cover crop) is one of the most affordable ways to build soil organic matter, if you have time for a growing period before planting. 

 

"Good black soil" is an interesting description; do you have a source, and how do you know it is good?  Does it just look better than your red clay, or do you know where it's from or anything about it? Use it, but mix it with the native soil by rototilling or pick and shovel digging. 

 

If you have a source for soil and/or organic matter and can truck it and spread it, or pay someone to do that, then it is the quickest way to improve your existing soil. You would probably want to start with a minimum of a two inch thick layer (5cm) spread on top, to be worked into the top six inches or so of the native soil. Avoid creating un-blended layers of radically different materials.  To cover your 250 wah,  5cm thick, you would need about 15 cubic meters of material. That's like 3 six-wheeler dump trucks. The more the better, 3 or 4 inches of compost worked in would be ideal.

 

MaeJo U and CMU have soil labs that process soil samples for a fee. In Chiang Rai there is Mae Fah Luang U that may have a soils dept.   But if you get into soil analysis and obtain an Rx, then you will have the challenge of sourcing the materials for that aspect.  There is a shop in Chiang Mai that has the basics.  I think it's worth it but few people understand the importance for plant health, of adequate and balanced soil minerals. I follow Michael Astera and The Ideal Soil system.  http://soilminerals.com/

 

 

HORT FORUM 1 Soi Fertility.pdf

[IsaanAussie]

Dr. T, just read your paper. Brilliant in its simplicity. Good advice guys. If on a limited budget do the research on what is needed and where you can get it locally. Spend the money on labour if you can't or don't want to do it yourself. Two keys to success are, knowledge or at least basic understanding, and heaps of hard work. 

[Doisaketdreamer]

1 hour ago, drtreelove said:

Westbounder, your question is pertinent for many people starting gardens in Thailand or anywhere.  I've been through it with three different properties in Thailand, from a residential yard smaller than yours, to a small farm of 10 rai. 

 

250 wah is 1000 sq meters, 2/3 rai isn't it?  Not so huge an area that an investment could not be considered for importing soil and/or the organic matter to get a good start.  It depends on your budget and determination to seek out materials for the project, how much work you will do yourself or will you have to pay for labor, trucking and tractor services. 

 

The building of soil organic matter (and therefore enhancing soil biological activity), like IssanAussie points out, should be a primary focus for getting started and also needs to be an ongoing management effort. Soil testing and prescription mineral and biological amendments that he mentions is also advisable.  Pits, concrete rings or raised beds with organic matter and manure and no mineral soil may show good results in the short term while young plants are vigorous,  but there can be some negatives with this approach.  Without some of the important soil minerals, there could be a decline in health and lack of resistance to pest and disease issues develop. 

 

Attached is an article that I wrote a few years ago for a Chiang Mai Expats Garden Club. I had a similar situation in 2003 and searched out affordable sources in Chiang Mai for organic matter.  Rice hulls, rice straw, coconut husk grindings, horse and donkey manure with straw bedding mixed in (race track and army pack squadron sources) were some of the available materials that I found. I had a pickup for hauling sacks and bulk material and I did a lot of the labor myself.  Raw material I composted before incorporating it into the soil, or worked it in and then gave it time to decompose before planting.

 

Green manure (seeding and growing a legume cover crop) is one of the most affordable ways to build soil organic matter, if you have time for a growing period before planting. 

 

"Good black soil" is an interesting description; do you have a source, and how do you know it is good?  Does it just look better than your red clay, or do you know where it's from or anything about it? Use it, but mix it with the native soil by rototilling or pick and shovel digging. 

 

If you have a source for soil and/or organic matter and can truck it and spread it, or pay someone to do that, then it is the quickest way to improve your existing soil. You would probably want to start with a minimum of a two inch thick layer (5cm) spread on top, to be worked into the top six inches or so of the native soil. Avoid creating un-blended layers of radically different materials.  To cover your 250 wah,  5cm thick, you would need about 15 cubic meters of material. That's like 3 six-wheeler dump trucks. The more the better, 3 or 4 inches of compost worked in would be ideal.

 

MaeJo U and CMU have soil labs that process soil samples for a fee. In Chiang Rai there is Mae Fah Luang U that may have a soils dept.   But if you get into soil analysis and obtain an Rx, then you will have the challenge of sourcing the materials for that aspect.  There is a shop in Chiang Mai that has the basics.  I think it's worth it but few people understand the importance for plant health, of adequate and balanced soil minerals. I follow Michael Astera and The Ideal Soil system.  http://soilminerals.com/

 

 

HORT FORUM 1 Soi Fertility.pdf

Please share the contact information about the "shop in Chiang Mai that has the basics"

[kickstart]

I think some of the problem is in the first line of the  op's post, hard soil  , I would say  they is a hard  pan  under the soil , that  is preventing  any  microbes from  working , the top foot want's  braking up  ,get some air in they  and give the microbes  something to work on .

Ask around  see if any  local  farmers  have  a  tined cultivator  ,not easy to find,  and do it  when the land has dried out  say February  next year , do it then  the tines will  have a shattering  effect   on the land   and brake it up a treat ,a Thai plough ,or  a rotavator  will not do  the job ,you need a tine to brake up soil  and that hard pan ,then  as  other  posters have said  get some organic  matter in there ,what about  a green manure of  mung beans ,you should be  able to get  some seed  from your local market , when they are almost in flower ,get the cultivator back in  and cultivate the plants in to the soil ,may have too go over the land twice ,to a good  result .

 

[cooked]

  As someone who lived most of his professional horticultural life in a region with heavy soils, I should like to add a few remarks. Organic material is of course essential to the good management of any soil. I can't remember the exact figures but any organic material worked into the soil in a temperate climate will have largely disappeared after 18 months, in Thailand I would imagine that the speed of this process would be much quicker. I knew a head gardener that spent 40 years trying to improve clay soil by laboriously digging in quantities of cow manure and compost every year. It didn't work.

Heavy soil needs to be aerated, and once aerated it needs to stay that way. My first choice would be to work in quantities of carbonised rice husk, which 'sweetens' the soil and makes it lighter and easier to work. I found a large pile of siliceous (acidic) river sand in front of the garden when I got here and as clay soil tends to be on the alkaline side I had no hesitation in scattering some over the garden and letting itself work it self into the soil or digging it in as and when necessary. You can over do it of course, but after three years of gradually adding I now have a soil that I can walk over when it is wet (when I have to) and that I can work even when neighbours' gardens have turned into hard baked deserts. Siliceous sand is the kind that doesn't bake hard in summer and is used in sand pits (or should be).

  Now I can apply cow manure, and of course due to the lighter nature of the soil, I have to apply more as biological activity is increased due to additional oxygen being available. Earth worms have appeared in quantities and we also have geckoes, toads, frogs and chameleons hunting which we didn't have initially.

  I am beginning to have problem with soil borne pathogens but I will be applying wood vinegar to see if that helps.

 

 

[drtreelove]

On ‎10‎/‎24‎/‎2016 at 8:25 PM, Doisaketdreamer said:

Please share the contact information about the "shop in Chiang Mai that has the basics"

 

Limasakul Chemsakate or something like that, my friend says I have the name wrong, but didn't give me the correct name.  They have a new larger shop on the outer ring road, just east of the Doi Saket Rd. Here's the info I was given:

Baan Ta Lua
T. San Pu Loi
Doi Saket
053-011-750 (or 751/752/753

If anyone goes there please confirm the correct name and address. And I would like to find a similar complete ag chemical/soil amendment/sprayer shop like this in Bangkok area. Anybody know one?

Their old Chiang Mai shop that I know (and was told that it is still there) is on the south side of Charoen Muang Rd (Tapae to railway station road) just east of Bumrungrat Rd (Krung Thai Bank on the corner). You will see sacks of fertilizers and sprayers displayed visible from the street. Khun Vipaporn is the English speaking woman owner. She is knowledgeable and will help you with selection of materials, calculate application rates etc. She is all business though, friendly if you are buying, but seems short on patience for a lot of questions that don't relate directly with a sale.

 

Besides chemical ferts and pesticides, they carry ag lime, gypsum, rock phosphate and other mineral amendments.