FBI reopens probe into Hillary Clinton's emails

[keemapoot]

5 hours ago, Publicus said:

 

First half of the post is typically well reasoned, if I may say so.

 

I know however and say with a certainty the second half of it gradually meanders off into some nether land of someone thinking things through while driving home in heavy traffic amid a torrential downpour.

 

Granted, a guy in Comey's position in Washington has multiple internal pressures and almost uncountable cross currents of strong inputs -- both overt and covert -- throughout the bureaucracy, to include by those above him in the pecking order. Everything is at bottom political, while one conducts himself as a professional who is on top of it all.   

 

I do myself believe as you yourself believe, i.e., that this will work itself through. I can't say how nor would I want to try to analyse it to offer a thorough or a comprehensive projection, even in a broad outline. Given Washington is Washington, one thing that does strongly suggest itself is that it would be more than remarkable were Comey to survive this "shitstorm." People in the middle of a given Washington shitstorm inevitably find themselves suddenly with microphones shoved in their face with reporters asking what he/she thinks about having just been fired. (If it comes down to it, Comey would likely resign after having been offered the option.)

 

People in Washington want heads to roll and they take a perverse pride in putting heads to the roll. And this one is the ultimate struggle among the daily struggles there, i.e., the campaign to elect the Potus. Comey inserting himself into it as he has before the election -- immediately before the election in this uniquely bizarre campaign in every respect -- makes him the most high profile bureaucrat in the history of the country.

 

No agency director is allowed by everyone in Washington to get that big and survive to tell about it. The guy running the FBI especially and in particular. No appointed bureaucrat can demonstrate this kind of power and judgement. It goes beyond the system of checks and balances, and it shakes the foundations of the proscription of separate but equal branches of government.

 

Testimony to the fact is that President Obama has remained personally silent on this. Comey has no doubt taken notice of it. To date, Comey's only institutional support is from the Republicans in Congress, the House besides. This is not in Comey's interest professionally or politically. Comey is a together guy in his head, however, he is not political. And Washington DC is far and away above all else, political.

 

I find your take on the Washington scene to be the most realistic, researched and experienced on this board, if not usually partisan. 

 

This dissection of Comey's intentions, motivations & implications by us has taken on another element as the 3 blockbuster reports have come out now about Trump and the Putin and Russia connection, from CNBC, NYT, and especially from Mother Jones. The former spy who disclosed these connections, together with the presumably honey-trap or other stuff Putin has to blackmail a would-be President Trump, and together with the Congressional private briefings by FBI constitute an arguably compelling need to disclose to the public which Comey has not done.

 

At base, is the charge that FBI has a lot of corroborating evidence of this Russian influence on Trump, feeding Trump with confidential stolen information, and that the FBI chose not to disclose this because it was too close to the election, but did chose to disclose the additional Clinton possible inert emails.  So, the implication is that Comey has gone partisan in a big way, as well as going J. Edgar. 

 

J. Edgar Hoover II, FBI Director gone rogue.

[Dagnabbit]

 

I find your take on the Washington scene to be the most realistic, researched and experienced on this board, if not usually partisan. 

 

This dissection of Comey's intentions, motivations & implications by us has taken on another element as the 3 blockbuster reports have come out now about Trump and the Putin and Russia connection, from CNBC, NYT, and especially from Mother Jones. The former spy who disclosed these connections, together with the presumably honey-trap or other stuff Putin has to blackmail a would-be President Trump, and together with the Congressional private briefings by FBI constitute an arguably compelling need to disclose to the public which Comey has not done.

 

At base, is the charge that FBI has a lot of corroborating evidence of this Russian influence on Trump, feeding Trump with confidential stolen information, and that the FBI chose not to disclose this because it was too close to the election, but did chose to disclose the additional Clinton possible inert emails.  So, the implication is that Comey has gone partisan in a big way, as well as going J. Edgar. 

 

J. Edgar Hoover II, FBI Director gone rogue.

Or another, simpler more likely explanation.

Comey knew exactly what was in rhe emails because investigators on the other case told him.

He cannot claim to know without the warrant because it would make the evidence inadmissable.

He knows there is something there that will nail Hillary, so he made the announcement.

There is no conspiracy. Not with Comey,not with the Russians. Things are simply as they appear. An honest FBI director sending out a warning that the sh1t will shortly hit the fan.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Publicus]

3 hours ago, keemapoot said:

 

Lynch has been emasculated (if that's possible of a female), humiliated, and cornered. There is a lot of analysis in the news. She is a weak sister. She has painted herself into a corner. Will also go down in time.

 

A number of us recognise certain specific fundamentals about the United States Government and in respect of the Constitution.

 

We well know always that the AG as with every cabinet officer has one Constitutional master. The master of the department heads (sub-heads etc) of the U.S. Government is the chief executive, under Article II of the Constitution.

 

To the contrary, since January 20, 2009 elements in the Congress have with determination, passion, zeal, and extremism, attempted to control the Department of Justice. The pursuit has been constant and unrelenting. This Constitutional anomaly has not occurred at other Constitutional executive departments of the U.S. Government throughout the period, to the present. 

 

Not a NAACP meeting. Not a Tea Party meeting. Not a KKK meeting. How would rightwingers in Congress describe it, those in the U.S. House especially and in particular? 

 

 

The chief executive nominates, Congress confirms. Congress funds the Government. Indeed, Cabinet officers must, as a matter of practice and consistent with the Constitution, have and exercise inter alia due respect of Congress, the laws it enacts, and the oversight functions it conducts (and of course, in respect of the Judiciary).

 

The elements of Congress I reference have sought to be master of DoJ whether the elements have been in the majority or the minority, in the House especially and in particular. They have consequently and for several years created chaos at DoJ. The emails and the FBI are the most recent and ongoing cause of these elements.

 

Let's step back for a moment to recognise that there was no particular nepotism when President Kennedy had as his AG his younger brother, Robert F. Kennedy. Because of the sensitive nature of the DoJ in Washington life, politics, jurisprudence, law enforcement, national security and the like, the AG is one of the four most senior cabinet officers (with Secretary of, respectively, Treasury, State, Defense). AG's primary and principle daily policy making relationships in respect of Justice are with the White House, not the Congress, not the Judiciary.

 

It is no coincidence the fierce elements in Congress have daily and without historical precedent targeted DoJ for their control the past eight years. President Barack Obama has had as his AG, in succession, Eric Holder and Loretta Lynch. Director of FBI is of course also a member of the Executive Branch under the Constitution responsible to Potus and Potus only, exclusively, ultimately.

 

While members of the Executive Branch appointed to high office by the chief executive must pass the scrutiny of the Congress -- the Senate in particular -- before they can assume office, and must pay due respect to the Constitutional powers of the Congress, the members of the Executive Branch are in fact, well, members of the Executive Branch. 

[keemapoot]

23 minutes ago, Dagnabbit said:

Or another, simpler more likely explanation.

Comey knew exactly what was in rhe emails because investigators on the other case told him.

He cannot claim to know without the warrant because it would make the evidence inadmissable.

He knows there is something there that will nail Hillary, so he made the announcement.

There is no conspiracy. Not with Comey,not with the Russians. Things are simply as they appear. An honest FBI director sending out a warning that the sh1t will shortly hit the fan.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

That is the most pleasant fiction to believe if you are a Trump fan. Simple is very attractive and easy to understand. However, what that simplistic analysis doesn't take into account is that if the FBI investigators on the Weiner case read emails that were not covered by warrant, they have poisoned the fruit. Those emails are therefore inadmissible against Clinton.  If those investigators are merely gumshoes, and not lawyers who read those emails, they will not be able to understand the legal significance of what they read and how they erred, and moreover, Comey, as a lawyer would.  He would also understand that he can never actually read those without a warrant. So, he is really stuck. He relies on what an underling read, whose analysis may be illegal and wrong; or he opens up the gift himself and subjects himself to further damaging evidence and possible criminal charges of his own.

 

The Russian stuff is similarly not so simple. I also wish life were simple, and we wouldn't have to go through these mental gymnastics. Unfortunately, it's not. That's why FBI G-men go to the FBI Academy at Quantico Virginia, and many, if not most destined for higher positions have at least undergraduate and graduate degrees in criminal justice. Those guys understand law enforcement, but still don't have the complete picture.

 

Comey, with a JD, does understand the complete picture.  He is in a trap of his own making.

[JHolmesJr]

15 minutes ago, keemapoot said:

 

….if the FBI investigators on the Weiner case read emails that were not covered by warrant, they have poisoned the fruit. Those emails are therefore inadmissible against Clinton.  

 

lol….the whole point is that they weren't expecting to find this trove of state department emails on an alleged sex offender's laptop. They were looking for something of a different nature. So they can hardly be blamed for reading something illegally.

 

This is a breach of the highest kind…the mind boggles at the charges that will be brought….it can be construed as high treason bordering on espionage.

 

 

[keemapoot]

1 minute ago, JHolmesJr said:

 

lol….the whole point is that they weren't expecting to find this trove of state department emails on an alleged sex offender's laptop. They were looking for something of a different nature. So they can hardly be blamed for reading something illegally.

 

This is a breach of the highest kind…the mind boggles at the charges that will be brought….it can be construed as high treason bordering on espionage.

 

 

 

Let me see if I understand your point. So, these gumshoes stumble on these emails, and they see that one or two are clearly not related to Weiner's showing his full monty to kids, or whatever - in other words they are highest security clearance emails between his wife and Hilary Clinton, or other matters - clearly unrelated to Weiner's dick. So, you're saying they can just continue merrily along, reading this, aware that they certainly are related to another FBI investigation, ordering more coffee and sandwiches into the night (in fact for several weeks according to the FBI's own admissions), and that is ok in your book?

 

Maybe that is ok in your book, but it doesn't agree with Constitutional protections of due process in the USA, my friend.

[Bob9]

12 hours ago, balo said:

I hate FOX news , just switched over a few times to see whats going on and it's the same garbage they preach every minute of the day.  

 

FIXED !!

 

I hate CNN, ABC, MSNBC, etc. just switched over a few times to see whats going on and it's the same garbage they preach every minute of the day. 

 

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/aug/29/cool-kids-media-hate-trump/

 

[Publicus]

3 minutes ago, keemapoot said:

 

That is the most pleasant fiction to believe if you are a Trump fan. Simple is very attractive and easy to understand. However, what that simplistic analysis doesn't take into account is that if the FBI investigators on the Weiner case read emails that were not covered by warrant, they have poisoned the fruit. Those emails are therefore inadmissible against Clinton.  If those investigators are merely gumshoes, and not lawyers who read those emails, they will not be able to understand the legal significance of what they read and how they erred, and moreover, Comey, as a lawyer would.  He would also understand that he can never actually read those without a warrant. So, he is really stuck. He relies on what an underling read, whose analysis may be illegal and wrong; or he opens up the gift himself and subjects himself to further damaging evidence and possible criminal charges of his own.

 

The Russian stuff is similarly not so simple. I also wish life were simple, and we wouldn't have to go through these mental gymnastics. Unfortunately, it's not. That's why FBI G-men go to the FBI Academy at Quantico Virginia, and many, if not most destined for higher positions have at least undergraduate and graduate degrees in criminal justice. Those guys understand law enforcement, but still don't have the complete picture.

 

Comey, with a JD, does understand the complete picture.  He is in a trap of his own making.

 

Comey somewhere along the line missed the class in Washington Politics 101.

 

Comey in fact was absent the day they taught politics at every level of his education throughout his life. His impeccably lawyer's answers at confirmation and oversight hearings by the U.S. Senate but much more so, subsequently in the U.S. House, get him through with honors. 

 

However....

 

 

 

I definitely would not want to find myself standing in the erratic and chaotic mess that his office no doubt is.

 

Comey is a guy who attend every class faithfully to rack up the exam and honors scores, but who inexplicably -- consciously or unconsciously -- skipped every class about politics and real life. And Comey obviously never played baseball, because not only is he a bewildered observer who knows nothing of inside baseball, he's a guy who got handed his ticket under the misimpression the playing field was his to control too.

 

 

It is both realistic and obvious Comey hasn't any contact with his environment. 

[keemapoot]

^ Yes, really it is the philosophical difference between those with a "law enforcement" mentality, who grow up to be anything from mall security guards to Director of FBI. Generally, quite easy to spot. His lack of polish cleverness is his undoing. He is very diligent, an Eagle scout, but dogmatic, and just a straight ass. They can never exist in the constant changing jungle of Washington without learning to be at least a little crooked.

 

In over his head, I agree.

[Bob9]

9 minutes ago, keemapoot said:

 

Let me see if I understand your point. So, these gumshoes stumble on these emails, and they see that one or two are clearly not related to Weiner's showing his full monty to kids, or whatever - in other words they are highest security clearance emails between his wife and Hilary Clinton, or other matters - clearly unrelated to Weiner's dick. So, you're saying they can just continue merrily along, reading this, aware that they certainly are related to another FBI investigation, ordering more coffee and sandwiches into the night (in fact for several weeks according to the FBI's own admissions), and that is ok in your book?

 

Maybe that is ok in your book, but it doesn't agree with Constitutional protections of due process in the USA, my friend.

 

Those same 'gumshoes' have been investigating the Clinton Foundation for some time now, and they have also been investigating Huma's husband (Weiner). The word is that the 'new' evidence links all three of those investigations. The word is also that Huma and her 'Clinton Affairs' is at the heart of the leak - in other words Huma's ex has decided to 'play ball' with the gumshoes and has given them Huma's IT equipment - within which the new evidence was found.

 

Hillary is not smart and is corrupt, but surely she should have realised that if you lay with dogs you will eventually get fleas - they are biting her back big time right now. The FBI investigations (all three) will conclude with Trump as POTUS, and there will be sentances involved that preclude the Clintons and all others involved from ever holing public office again. Trump is gonna drain the swamp - and the FBI investigations of Clintons is only a part of what he will do.

  

 

[Prbkk]

7 minutes ago, Bob9 said:

 

FIXED !!

 

I hate CNN, ABC, MSNBC, etc. just switched over a few times to see whats going on and it's the same garbage they preach every minute of the day. 

 

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/aug/29/cool-kids-media-hate-trump/

 

 

CNN is the only one available to most people and I have to say it's a sick joke ( FAR worse than Fox, Hannity excluded). They can't be trusted. Not only on this issue but others, eg the story still on the website, headlined " Australian PM wants to ban migrants". ....an outrageous lie: it is a proposal to ban people who try to arrive illegally in Australia by boat but CNN offers no qualification and makes it into something it's not.

CNN poses as an honest broker but is anything but; at least with FOX you know the slant before you switch it on.

[Prbkk]

13 minutes ago, Bob9 said:

 

Those same 'gumshoes' have been investigating the Clinton Foundation for some time now, and they have also been investigating Huma's husband (Weiner). The word is that the 'new' evidence links all three of those investigations. The word is also that Huma and her 'Clinton Affairs' is at the heart of the leak - in other words Huma's ex has decided to 'play ball' with the gumshoes and has given them Huma's IT equipment - within which the new evidence was found.

 

Hillary is not smart and is corrupt, but surely she should have realised that if you lay with dogs you will eventually get fleas - they are biting her back big time right now. The FBI investigations (all three) will conclude with Trump as POTUS, and there will be sentances involved that preclude the Clintons and all others involved from ever holing public office again. Trump is gonna drain the swamp - and the FBI investigations of Clintons is only a part of what he will do.

  

 

 

Some people might have forgotten the Thai connection to the Clintons and cash for play: Pauline K ( sometime commentator for The Nation) and one of her colleagues, convicted of a USD 668,000 contribution to the DNC, illegally made,. All they 'appeared ' to get for it was a coffee with Bill in the White House for themselves and a couple of Thai billionaire shopkeepers 

[Bob9]

8 minutes ago, Prbkk said:

 

CNN is the only one available to most people and I have to say it's a sick joke ( FAR worse than Fox, Hannity excluded). They can't be trusted. Not only on this issue but others, eg the story still on the website, headlined " Australian PM wants to ban migrants". ....an outrageous lie: it is a proposal to ban people who try to arrive illegally in Australia by boat but CNN offers no qualification and makes it into something it's not.

CNN poses as an honest broker but is anything but; at least with FOX you know the slant before you switch it on.

 

And I think that is the heart of the issue. Fox is openly supportive of conservative values (Megan aside), but CNN claims it is impartial, when in the truth is they are supportive of liberal values.

 

[keemapoot]

1 minute ago, Prbkk said:

 

Some people might have forgotten the Thai connection to the Clintons and cash for play: Pauline K ( sometime commentator for The Nation) and one of her colleagues, convicted of a USD 668,000 contribution to the DNC, illegally made,. All they 'appeared ' to get for it was a coffee with Bill in the White House for themselves and a couple of Thai billionaire shopkeepers 

 

You may not be aware of it, the the biggest Thai cash connections by far, were those having to do with George H. W. Bush.

[Publicus]

24 minutes ago, Bob9 said:

 

Those same 'gumshoes' have been investigating the Clinton Foundation for some time now, and they have also been investigating Huma's husband (Weiner). The word is that the 'new' evidence links all three of those investigations. The word is also that Huma and her 'Clinton Affairs' is at the heart of the leak - in other words Huma's ex has decided to 'play ball' with the gumshoes and has given them Huma's IT equipment - within which the new evidence was found.

 

Hillary is not smart and is corrupt, but surely she should have realised that if you lay with dogs you will eventually get fleas - they are biting her back big time right now. The FBI investigations (all three) will conclude with Trump as POTUS, and there will be sentances involved that preclude the Clintons and all others involved from ever holing public office again. Trump is gonna drain the swamp - and the FBI investigations of Clintons is only a part of what he will do.

  

 

 

HRC, her new AG and FBI director are going to turn on the lights, identify the culprits and the perps, sort things out, necessarily to sweep the place clear. The first place to start is with foreign influence or participation in the Republican Party in 2016, if not beginning before then....

 

“FBI Director James Comey argued privately that it was too close to Election Day for the United States government to name Russia as meddling in the U.S. election and ultimately ensured that the FBI’s name was not on the document that the U.S. government put out,” a former FBI official tells CNBC.

 

“The official said some government insiders are perplexed as to why Comey would have election timing concerns with the Russian disclosure but not with the Huma Abedin email discovery disclosure he made Friday.”

 

 

Manafort for instance has a long established money trail that is connected to, if not directly from, the Kremlin. Let's start with a government intelligence and investigative apparatus that sees the enemies of the Constitution as they exist over there and who operate into here.

 

Joe McCarthy's rampage was predicated in paranoia and alcoholism. In this time, place, circumstance, starting with the players, we have facts. Trump is merely the red flag that we could not miss no matter how much we may have wanted to miss it. This now makes the Cambridge Five look like boys in a sandbox.

Edited November 1, 2016 by Publicus
Font.

[Bob9]

1 minute ago, keemapoot said:

 

You may not be aware of it, the the biggest Thai cash connections by far, were those having to do with George H. W. Bush.

 

True - biggest Thai connections, but the Clinton far far bigger overall.

 

But dont worry, Trump will clean the decks of both the Clinton's and the Bush's years of power abuse and crooked politics. Trump will drain the swamp and expose them, and drive them out of both public administration and the executive - both Dems and Reps - they are all for the chop. 

 

[keemapoot]

5 minutes ago, Bob9 said:

 

True - biggest Thai connections, but the Clinton far far bigger overall.

 

But dont worry, Trump will clean the decks of both the Clinton's and the Bush's years of power abuse and crooked politics. Trump will drain the swamp and expose them, and drive them out of both public administration and the executive - both Dems and Reps - they are all for the chop. 

 

 

Yes, altruistic Trump. Our fearless, selfless working class hero. His drain the swamp makes for a nifty catchphrase, but I'm afraid the only thing Trump will be draining by 9pm November 8, is his tiny pickle in sputtering, frustrated squirts.

Edited November 1, 2016 by keemapoot
add comedic brilliance

[Steely Dan]

 
So what. He was anti-media and his supporters were too. That contradicts your claim of what you "don't remember" and your opinion that the biased media are not responsible for Republican losses is simply that - an OPINION. Nothing more.

Donna Brazile has parted company with CNN after twice feeding HRC questions in advance of live interviews or debates. I don't think she will be the last journalist to go as they all cut and run when they realize Hillary won't be able to touch them where she's going.


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[Khun Han]

It's patently obvious to an outsider looking in, such as myself, that FBI Director Comey acted out of partisanship in sending the new 'emails' letter last week (helps the Reps), whilst opposing the release of information about Russian hacking (helped the Dems) nearly a month ago on the basis that it could influence the upcoming election. There is no other credible interpretation of Comey's behavaiour, though there will be endless prevarication by Rep supporters to explain and justify it.

[Publicus]

1 minute ago, Steely Dan said:

Donna Brazile has parted company with CNN after twice feeding HRC questions in advance of live interviews or debates. I don't think she will be the last journalist to go as they all cut and run when they realize Hillary won't be able to touch them where she's going.


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The line outside the door of Old Sparky revived in its musty chamber is starting to get longer by the day over there.

 

Lotta scores to settle over a lifetime of grievances on the extreme right. When there are guys who wanna blow up the dam it's because they accept the whole of the village getting wiped out. The blow it all up to start it all over again syndrome. The same guyz who see swamps everywhere and always.

[Steely Dan]

It's patently obvious to an outsider looking in, such as myself, that FBI Director Comey acted out of partisanship in sending the new 'emails' letter last week (helps the Reps), whilst opposing the release of information about Russian hacking (helped the Dems) nearly a month ago on the basis that it could influence the upcoming election. There is no other credible interpretation of Comey's behavaiour, though there will be endless prevarication by Rep supporters to explain and justify it.

The White House would beg to differ, Obama stated he has confidence in Comey as being non partisan.


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[keemapoot]

5 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

It's patently obvious to an outsider looking in, such as myself, that FBI Director Comey acted out of partisanship in sending the new 'emails' letter last week (helps the Reps), whilst opposing the release of information about Russian hacking (helped the Dems) nearly a month ago on the basis that it could influence the upcoming election. There is no other credible interpretation of Comey's behavaiour, though there will be endless prevarication by Rep supporters to explain and justify it.

 

Excellent post by a non American I presume. You summed it up pretty well. Both things are unsubstantiated and unauthenticated to a degree where exposing them to the electorate amounts to a clear influencing of the election. 

 

I expect the usual crackpot Americans to be along telling you to shut up and mind your own business. 

[Steely Dan]

 
The line outside the door of Old Sparky revived in its musty chamber is starting to get longer by the day over there.
 
Lotta scores to settle over a lifetime of grievances on the extreme right. When there are guys who wanna blow up the dam it's because they accept the whole of the village getting wiped out. The blow it all up to start it all over again syndrome. The same guyz who see swamps everywhere and always.

You are sounding like a drunken Lord Haw Haw who had to keep up the charade of 'Germany calling' propaganda broadcasts as Russian bombs began landing in Berlin.


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[keemapoot]

3 minutes ago, Steely Dan said:

The White House would beg to differ, Obama stated he has confidence in Comey as being non partisan.


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Wrong. Simply window dressing. Obama can do nothing other than to state this as you well know if you have read the analysis.

[Khun Han]

4 minutes ago, Steely Dan said:

The White House would beg to differ, Obama stated he has confidence in Comey as being non partisan.


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The White House is being statesmanlike and deliberately non-partisan. But you must have worked that out anyway.

 

I'm British, think both candidates are appalling anyway, and so can view all this for what it is.

Edited November 1, 2016 by Khun Han

[Steely Dan]

 
The White House is being statesmanlike and deliberately non-partisan. But you must have worked that out anyway.
 
I'm British, think both candidates are appalling anyway, and so can view all this for what it is.

So am I, and ditto.


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[SheungWan]

On balance I think I will take the Clinton nonsense over Trump getting into bed with Putin.

[Publicus]

8 minutes ago, Steely Dan said:

The White House would beg to differ, Obama stated he has confidence in Comey as being non partisan.


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White House spokesperson said. Potus himself has remained personally silent in the Comey Caused Coup Chaos. 

 

It is virtually certain there will be a new AG in January.

 

Potus is currently getting a strong input to have a new acting FBI director by Thanksgiving. The latter is easier said than done, however, Comey's status definitely will be impacted on his next appearance at the House Committee coming soon.

[keemapoot]

1 minute ago, Publicus said:

 

White House spokesperson said. Potus himself has remained personally silent in the Comey Caused Coup Chaos. 

 

It is virtually certain there will be a new AG in January.

 

Potus is currently getting a strong input to have a new acting FBI director by Thanksgiving. The latter is easier said than done, however, Comey's status definitely will be impacted on his next appearance at the House Committee coming soon.

 

Yes, though strictly speaking, the FBI Director serves at the leisure of POTUS.  Obama could actually whack him at any time, including now. For sure, both he and Lynch are deader than disco.

[Boon Mee]